Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Jeff P.
 
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Default FS Six 20A outlet shop electrical panel, each outlet protected

Your site was still down when I tried it at 11:11pm central time.

--
Jeff P.

A truck carrying copies of Roget's Thesaurus over-turned on the
highway. The local newspaper reported that the onlookers were
"stunned, overwhelmed, astonished, bewildered, and dumfounded."

Check out my woodshop at: www.sawdustcentral.com


"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
my site was down for a while, it is back up again.

i

On 20 Feb 2005 18:10:02 GMT, Ignoramus29737

wrote:
For Sale is a panel of 6 20A outlets. Each outlet is individually
protected with a separate breaker!

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/outlet-panel/

You run a single circuit to your shop (say 30-40A 220V with neutral),
with one breaker in the main panel, connect it to the panel I am
selling, and voila, you are done.

This is a very cheap way to have a lot of protected 20A outlets,
compared to alternatives (buying electrical boxes, premium 20A
outlets, subpanel, many breakers etc). Nice for a shop where you have
a lot of tools that need to be plugged in.

This is a pull from a large 5 kvA working UPS. I have another one,
which I will keep for myself.

$25 plus shipping (maybe $10 or so) takes it. Local pickup is free
(Chicagoland).

i



--



  #2   Report Post  
John Lovallo
 
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Hi, I don't seem to be able to get email thru to you. I will take the panel
if still available. Please contact me.
Sincerely, John Lovallo

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:04:29 GMT, Jeff P. wrote:
Your site was still down when I tried it at 11:11pm central time.


it is up now

On 20 Feb 2005 18:10:02 GMT, Ignoramus29737

wrote:
For Sale is a panel of 6 20A outlets. Each outlet is individually
protected with a separate breaker!

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/outlet-panel/


--



  #3   Report Post  
tom
 
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:11:02 -0000, "John Lovallo"
wrote:

Hi, I don't seem to be able to get email thru to you. I will take the panel
if still available. Please contact me.
Sincerely, John Lovallo


With all the problems I've had and others trying to get to the site,
good thing this is a one time sale.


later,


tom @ www.BookmarkAdmin.com




"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:04:29 GMT, Jeff P. wrote:
Your site was still down when I tried it at 11:11pm central time.


it is up now

On 20 Feb 2005 18:10:02 GMT, Ignoramus29737

wrote:
For Sale is a panel of 6 20A outlets. Each outlet is individually
protected with a separate breaker!

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/outlet-panel/


--



  #4   Report Post  
tom
 
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On 21 Feb 2005 18:09:27 GMT, Ignoramus15794
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:34:36 -0500, tom wrote:
Hi, I don't seem to be able to get email thru to you. I will take the panel
if still available. Please contact me.
Sincerely, John Lovallo


With all the problems I've had and others trying to get to the site,
good thing this is a one time sale. tom @ www.BookmarkAdmin.com
http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/outlet-panel/


It should be up now. I am using that site as a development site for
my main website www.algebra.com (my domain), so, sometimes it is down


Noticed the PR6, very nice.



if I mess up some apache configuration.


Who hasn't been there before.....geez....


i



later,

tom
  #5   Report Post  
Mr Fixit eh
 
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No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh



  #6   Report Post  
Greg Menke
 
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"Mr Fixit eh" writes:


No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;


I can't speak to code issues, but I've routinely seen both #1 and #2 in
plenty of unmodified, UL listed power strips both high and low quality,
and in other devices as well.

Gregm

  #7   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
ups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;


Not sure about that for things like this. This is not house wiring.


I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.


Didn't they have 20A breakers on them?


Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.


How many circuit breakers do you have in your panel? Add up the load total
of all of those breakers. It's very common for that to total more than the
200A or whatever is coming into your house. As long as the device is
protected by a 20A breaker and #12 wire, it's perfectly safe. Remember -
the breaker in your panel protects the wire. The wire is rated for a
certain level of current. It just does not matter what is attached to the
other end. Think of this - by code you can put 12 devices on a piece of #12
wire on 20A breaker. By your logic, I'd need a 240A breaker and some nasty
sized wire for that circuit. Sorry - but you were thinking about this
incorrectly.


The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.


Not if he didn't manufacture it. If he's just selling it he's no more
liable for it than if you sell a car and someone dies in it from some
defect. Even if he did build it, his liability may be quite small. If the
device is UL listed, you're point is even less valid. There's a lot of talk
here about liability for this and for that - even to the point of people
claiming that one can be held liable for posts in this forum. Bull. It's
always best to check with a lawyer first before making these statements.


  #8   Report Post  
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article . com,
Mr Fixit eh wrote:
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors.


WRONG! Size the 'upstream' wiring to match whatever size of breaker
is used to feed the outlet panel. IF smaller than 120A, then the upstream
breaker will trip *before* the individual breakers. This is perfectly
acceptable. It just means that you cannot use all the sub-circuits to
maximum capacity simultaneously. Which *is* the 'normal' state of affairs.

Furthermore, 120A only needs #2 wire.

*Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.


Do you work for Microsoft Tech Support? This is eerily reminiscent of their
responses -- "technically accurate, but utterly meaningless in application".

It is entirely allowable to have sub-strings with their own breakers, where
the aggregate maximum load exceeds the rating of the feedline/breaker.

If you add up the individual breakers in a typical 'home' panel, you'll find
that they often total _more_ than 150% of the main breaker rating, just for
one example. Heck, the electric stove, electric clothes dryer, and the
air-conditioner compressor will often equal the main breaker all by themselves.
Not counting the 8-10 (or more) other circuits in the house.
  #9   Report Post  
Rick
 
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"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
ups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh


Where in the NEC does it prohibit soldered connections?


  #10   Report Post  
Rick
 
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"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
ups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh


No offence to you, but please look at your breaker panel. Does the main
breaker current rating equal the sum of all the individual breakers?




  #11   Report Post  
Rick
 
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Default


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
ups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh



And how many 15A receptacles do you have on one breaker?


  #12   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Ignoramus15841" wrote in message
...

The sensible thing to do for this panel would be to have a 40 A 220V
circuit for this panel, protected at the main panel by a suitable
breaker.


This is the second or third time you've said this and it's just wrong.
There is no reason it cannot be on a #12 wire protected by a 20A breaker.
It's no different than your house wiring.


--

-Mike-



  #13   Report Post  
Matt
 
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If I bought it, I would hook it directly to the incoming main wires, or
perhaps even snake some wires out and bypass the meter entirely.

- Jeff Wisnia

  #14   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Ignoramus15841" wrote in message
...

You are right that it CAN be on a 20A circuit. It does not mean that
doing that is optimal for someone with a home shop (which is where, I
think, this panel fits best). That would limit the number of
simultaneously running devices. Think about someone running a
compressor, a dust collector, a shaper with a vacuum attached
to some strategic spot. When I think about circuit selection for this
panel, with a shop like that in mind, I think that 40A 220V would be
best. Any more is a waste, but having less would run a risk of not
being able to power up a fancy shop in the most effective manner.


I know where you're coming from but the mistake I think you're making is
that you are thinking of this device as a subpanel and not as a power strip,
which is what it is more like.

--

-Mike-



  #15   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
If I bought it, I would hook it directly to the incoming main wires, or
perhaps even snake some wires out and bypass the meter entirely.

- Jeff Wisnia


#12 extension cord from the BORG, plugged right into the convenience outlet
in the bottom of the pole transformer and into the handy dandy panel.
--

-Mike-





  #16   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Ignoramus15841" wrote in message
...

Looks like we are not actually disagreeing, but rather are looking at
this issue from differing angles.


I'd say that is correct sir.
--

-Mike-



  #17   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article . com, Mr Fixit eh
says...

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.


Remind me to not let you fix anything in *my* house.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #18   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:45:04 GMT, "Rick" wrote:


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh


Where in the NEC does it prohibit soldered connections?



In summaryl, no splice shall rely on solder for mechanical and
electrical connections per 2002 NEC 110.14(b)

IMHO: this means you can use solder to dress up the splice, or tin the
tips of stranded wire for easier wirenutting.

As for grounding: I remember re-itterates no fusable metals, but
don't remember where. But 110.14(b) basicly says no.

hth,

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com





  #19   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:52:32 GMT, "Rick" wrote:


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;
2. Uninsulated terminations;

I can't tell for sure, but I don't think these breakers are designed
for 20A AC loads.

Even if this were a code-compliant device, it would be unsafe to use
this with any less than 120A overload protection at the main panel and
1/0 AWG copper conductors. *Each* of those 20A receptacles can draw up
to 20A for a total of 120A.

The OP could be held liable for any injury, death, or damage that
ensues from the use of this device. Kudos for creativity, but it
should be destroyed immediately.

Mr Fixit eh


No offence to you, but please look at your breaker panel. Does the main
breaker current rating equal the sum of all the individual breakers?


Ofcouse not, breakers are rated for the conductor sizes, and the
disconnect is rated for the service enterance conductors and panel.

imho,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com


  #20   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
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In article . com, "Mr Fixit eh" wrote:
No offence to the OP, but this is an extremely dangerous and
not-code-compliant device.


Wrong: cord-and-plug connected devices do not fall under the purview of the
NEC, which applies only to premises wiring.

1. Soldered connections are not acceptable for AC;


Wrong again. The NEC prohibits connections from relying on solder *only*, but,
again, the NEC does not apply to cord-and-plug connected devices. And there's
no reason not to use solder with AC.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #21   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
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In article , ignoramus15841
@NOSPAM.15841.invalid says...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:01:34 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

"Ignoramus15841" wrote in message
...

You are right that it CAN be on a 20A circuit. It does not mean that
doing that is optimal for someone with a home shop (which is where, I
think, this panel fits best). That would limit the number of
simultaneously running devices. Think about someone running a
compressor, a dust collector, a shaper with a vacuum attached
to some strategic spot. When I think about circuit selection for this
panel, with a shop like that in mind, I think that 40A 220V would be
best. Any more is a waste, but having less would run a risk of not
being able to power up a fancy shop in the most effective manner.


I know where you're coming from but the mistake I think you're
making is that you are thinking of this device as a subpanel and not
as a power strip, which is what it is more like.


That each outlet has its own breaker, is a feature similar to what a
subpanel provides (protection for individual circuits). A power strip,
at best, protects the entire strip.


But the the breakers in this "panel" are not qualified for branch
circuit protection, so it doesn't qualify as a subpanel by any stretch
of the imagination, and if it were wired permanently to a breaker larger
than 20A would violate the NEC. Depending on its construction, it may or
may not be legal if permanently wired to a 20A circuit. The safest bet
is to use it as a good rugged power strip.

Ned Simmons
  #22   Report Post  
Rick
 
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"The Real Tom" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:45:04 GMT, "Rick" wrote:

Where in the NEC does it prohibit soldered connections?



In summaryl, no splice shall rely on solder for mechanical and
electrical connections per 2002 NEC 110.14(b)

IMHO: this means you can use solder to dress up the splice, or tin the
tips of stranded wire for easier wirenutting.

As for grounding: I remember re-itterates no fusable metals, but
don't remember where. But 110.14(b) basicly says no.



OK-my 1999 copy says there must be a mechanically and electrically secure
joint before soldering...


  #23   Report Post  
Rick
 
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"The Real Tom" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:52:32 GMT, "Rick" wrote:
No offence to you, but please look at your breaker panel. Does the main

breaker current rating equal the sum of all the individual breakers?


Ofcouse not, breakers are rated for the conductor sizes, and the
disconnect is rated for the service enterance conductors and panel.

imho,

Exactly the point I was trying to make...


  #24   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
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In article , ignoramus15841
@NOSPAM.15841.invalid says...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:24:22 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
In article , ignoramus15841
@NOSPAM.15841.invalid says...



That each outlet has its own breaker, is a feature similar to what a
subpanel provides (protection for individual circuits). A power strip,
at best, protects the entire strip.


But the the breakers in this "panel" are not qualified for branch
circuit protection,


Well, outlets are not branch circuits either.


But those 20A receps must be protected by 20A overcurrent
protection and the CBs in your panel aren't qualified for
branch circuit overcurrent protection.

NEC's definition of "Branch Circuit":
"Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet
(s)."


so it doesn't qualify as a subpanel by any stretch of the
imagination, and if it were wired permanently to a breaker larger
than 20A would violate the NEC.


You may well be right, but I am curious just what provision of NECit
would violate.


For starters:

"240-3. Protection of Conductors
Conductors, other than flexible cords and fixture wires,
shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with
their ampacities as specified in Section 310-15, unless
otherwise permitted or required in (a) through (g)."

See 210-24 for requirements for protection of receps.


Depending on its construction, it may or may not be legal if
permanently wired to a 20A circuit. The safest bet is to use it as a
good rugged power strip.


It can be wired to a 20A 220V circuit (3 strips on one leg and 3 on
another), is that correct?


Possibly, if the materials and construction of the panel
are suitable.

Ned Simmons
  #25   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...

But those 20A receps must be protected by 20A overcurrent
protection and the CBs in your panel aren't qualified for
branch circuit overcurrent protection.


Huh???


NEC's definition of "Branch Circuit":
"Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet
(s)."


I don't understand what the purpose of this quote is. It does not relate to
what you typed immediately above it.


For starters:

"240-3. Protection of Conductors
Conductors, other than flexible cords and fixture wires,
shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with
their ampacities as specified in Section 310-15, unless
otherwise permitted or required in (a) through (g)."

See 210-24 for requirements for protection of receps.


Again - why post this quoted text? The branch circuit is protected in the
panel.

--

-Mike-





  #27   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
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"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...

But those 20A receps must be protected by 20A overcurrent
protection and the CBs in your panel aren't qualified for
branch circuit overcurrent protection.


Huh???


I thought that was pretty clear. Do you have a specific
question or comment? "Huh???" is pretty vague.


Well, it begs an explanation for a statement that is completely against NEC
and the purpose of Circuit Breakers. Of course the breakers in your panel
are qualified for branch circuit protection. That is in fact, exactly what
they are there for. Obviously, you mean to state something else but the
vague nature of the way you have either made statements like the above and
the included NEC text without explanation of the point you are trying to
make, causes it to be difficult for others to understand what you are
saying. I can't argue with a lot of what you're trying to say, because I
can't understand what you're trying to say. There's one thought that is
occurring to me and that is that you are using the word "panel" to refer to
the unit being sold by the OP that started this whole thread as opposed to
the breaker panel in the house. Throughout this thread we have used the
word panel to refer to the later. If my guess is true then I do understand
what you are trying to say and in fact I agree. But, that's a guess and if
my guess is wrong then there's something very wrong in what you are saying.




NEC's definition of "Branch Circuit":
"Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet
(s)."


I don't understand what the purpose of this quote is. It does not

relate to
what you typed immediately above it.


It relates to my use in the previous paragraph of the term
"branch circuit", which has a very specific meaning in the
NEC.


It would have been a lot more beneficial to explain yourself briefly instead
of a reply like this which is really quite obtuse. Clearly at least one
person here is not getting the point your are trying to get across and this
response does nothing to clear that up.




For starters:

"240-3. Protection of Conductors
Conductors, other than flexible cords and fixture wires,
shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with
their ampacities as specified in Section 310-15, unless
otherwise permitted or required in (a) through (g)."

See 210-24 for requirements for protection of receps.


Again - why post this quoted text? The branch circuit is protected in

the
panel.


Not if you were to take the suggestion made in the first
post in this thread, and repeated in other posts, to feed
the panel from a larger than 20A circuit.


Ok... but again, simply quoting NEC without an explanation of why you are
quoting it - an explanation of your objection which uses the NEC as
validation, does nothing to further a conversation, or (if it is your
intent) the understanding of the poster in error.
--

-Mike-



  #28   Report Post  
 
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Ned Simmons wrote:
But the the breakers in this "panel" are not qualified for branch
circuit protection, so it doesn't qualify as a subpanel by any

stretch
of the imagination, and if it were wired permanently to a breaker

larger
than 20A would violate the NEC. Depending on its construction, it may

or
may not be legal if permanently wired to a 20A circuit. The safest

bet
is to use it as a good rugged power strip.


Any reason this device couldn't be wired to a 30A electric clothes
dryer pigtail and plugged into a 240V dryer receptacle, to provide
120V, 60A total to downstream devices? The receptacle would have to be
all 4 proper conductors of course: 2 hots, neutral, and ground.

The individual 12 ga conductors on the device are protected by the
onboard 20A breakers. If the breakers are not qualified for branch
circuit protection, what are they qualified for, and would that be
sufficient for a non-permanent (i.e. plugged-in) device?

%mod%

  #31   Report Post  
Mr Fixit eh
 
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Wow, who knew this would generate so many posts!

I goofed in that 120A supply would not be needed. In fact 20A branch
circuit protection in the panel would be adequate. Of course, then it
would defeat the purpose of the device, because the branch circuit
breaker would be tripping continually. In order to have adequate power
for multiple shop tools, you would need to increase the amperage
supplied to the device. The 30A 220V feeder would be a practical
solution, however as was pointed out in a previous post, this would be
non-code-compliant because you would be 'over-fusing' the individual
receptacle wiring in the device.

I still have a problem with the solder-only, non-insulated connections.
If something goes awry and the device's overcurrent protection device
overheats, the solder will melt. You could end up with a hot wire make
contact with a metal box...

I'm assuming this device was part of a UL approved UPS. That's fine so
long as it is in the original unit. Once the device is removed, it is
not UL approved for the new application. The problem is that a DIY
(again, no offence intended--I am one too) may use an inappropriate
device box or mount the device unsafely, or over-fuse the device.

And as far as legal liability, I'm not a lawyer, but if someone's house
burnt down as a result of this device, I'm sure a lawyer would get lots
of mileage out of OP if they had a way to find him/her.

I'm sure the device is worth the asking price of 25$ just for the
component parts, but if anyone does purchase this device, it should be
used for just that--parts.

Mr Fixit eh

  #33   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
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In article ,
says...

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...

But those 20A receps must be protected by 20A overcurrent
protection and the CBs in your panel aren't qualified for
branch circuit overcurrent protection.

Huh???


I thought that was pretty clear. Do you have a specific
question or comment? "Huh???" is pretty vague.


Well, it begs an explanation for a statement that is completely against NEC
and the purpose of Circuit Breakers. Of course the breakers in your panel
are qualified for branch circuit protection. That is in fact, exactly what
they are there for. Obviously, you mean to state something else but the
vague nature of the way you have either made statements like the above and
the included NEC text without explanation of the point you are trying to
make, causes it to be difficult for others to understand what you are
saying. I can't argue with a lot of what you're trying to say, because I
can't understand what you're trying to say. There's one thought that is
occurring to me and that is that you are using the word "panel" to refer to
the unit being sold by the OP that started this whole thread as opposed to
the breaker panel in the house. Throughout this thread we have used the
word panel to refer to the later.


Didja look at the title of the thread? The original post
where Igor referred to his multi-receptacle device as a
"panel"? Do you recall referring to Igor's multi-receptacle
device as a "panel" yourself?

It seems to me "panel" has been used pretty consistently to
refer to the multi-receptacle device that is the subject of
this thread.


If my guess is true then I do understand
what you are trying to say and in fact I agree. But, that's a guess and if
my guess is wrong then there's something very wrong in what you are saying.


Your guess is correct.





NEC's definition of "Branch Circuit":
"Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet
(s)."

I don't understand what the purpose of this quote is. It does not

relate to
what you typed immediately above it.


It relates to my use in the previous paragraph of the term
"branch circuit", which has a very specific meaning in the
NEC.


It would have been a lot more beneficial to explain yourself briefly instead
of a reply like this which is really quite obtuse. Clearly at least one
person here is not getting the point your are trying to get across and this
response does nothing to clear that up.


I did in my first post...

********************************************
Igor:
"That each outlet has its own breaker, is a feature similar
to what a subpanel provides (protection for individual
circuits). A power strip,at best, protects the entire
strip.

My response:
"But the the breakers in this "panel" are not qualified for
branch
circuit protection, so it doesn't qualify as a subpanel by
any stretch
of the imagination, and if it were wired permanently to a
breaker larger
than 20A would violate the NEC. Depending on its
construction, it may or
may not be legal if permanently wired to a 20A circuit. The
safest bet
is to use it as a good rugged power strip."

************************************************** *



For starters:

"240-3. Protection of Conductors
Conductors, other than flexible cords and fixture wires,
shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with
their ampacities as specified in Section 310-15, unless
otherwise permitted or required in (a) through (g)."

See 210-24 for requirements for protection of receps.

Again - why post this quoted text? The branch circuit is protected in

the
panel.


Not if you were to take the suggestion made in the first
post in this thread, and repeated in other posts, to feed
the panel from a larger than 20A circuit.


Ok... but again, simply quoting NEC without an explanation of why you are
quoting it - an explanation of your objection which uses the NEC as
validation, does nothing to further a conversation, or (if it is your
intent) the understanding of the poster in error.


I quoted the NEC only because Igor asked for a specific
provision of the NEC that supported my assertion that using
his "panel" as he originally suggested would be a
violation.

I don't know how to help if your objection is that an
individual post may be ambiguous after earlier posts have
been snipped in follow-ups, and when taken out of the
context of the entire thread.

Ned Simmons





  #34   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
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"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
I did in my first post...

********************************************
Igor:
"That each outlet has its own breaker, is a feature similar
to what a subpanel provides (protection for individual
circuits). A power strip,at best, protects the entire
strip.

My response:
"But the the breakers in this "panel" are not qualified for
branch
circuit protection, so it doesn't qualify as a subpanel by
any stretch
of the imagination, and if it were wired permanently to a
breaker larger
than 20A would violate the NEC. Depending on its
construction, it may or
may not be legal if permanently wired to a 20A circuit. The
safest bet
is to use it as a good rugged power strip."


I quoted the NEC only because Igor asked for a specific
provision of the NEC that supported my assertion that using
his "panel" as he originally suggested would be a
violation.


Sorry - did not see that.


I don't know how to help if your objection is that an
individual post may be ambiguous after earlier posts have
been snipped in follow-ups, and when taken out of the
context of the entire thread.


Nope - that's not my objection Ned. I had missed at least some of the
replies in this thread. I read all that I saw, but obviously not all of
them made it to me from my ISP. There seems to be only a couple or a few
replies that I did not receive for some reason, so viewed in the context of
what appeared to have been a complete discussion, your later comments did
not make sense. At least now they do and I understand what you are trying
to say. Thanks for hanging in there on this one.
--

-Mike-



  #36   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
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In article , ignoramus21810
@NOSPAM.21810.invalid says...
Now, a killer question. How come the breakers on the panel do not
qualify as overcurrent protection devices under NEC. They are, after
all, designed to interrupt the line if the current exceeds the rated
amount. The whole issue of just how much current can be supplied to
the panel, is depending on the answer to this question.


It's a good question. I went through this a year ago when
building a large industrial control panel. Usually when I
do this sort of thing it's for a self contained piece of
automation I've built, so this issue does not come up
because the connections to the various devices are not
"premises wiring" and do not constitute a branch circuit.
In the case in question there were many pumps and fans
powered by the panel spread around a large room, with their
wiring mingled with the plant wiring.

Even though you can buy a suitable CB for your home panel
for a few dollars, and the miniature circuit breakers
(MCBs) referenced in the article below are reasonably
priced, the breakers approved for branch circuit protection
and suitable for use in an industrial control enclosure
start around $200/ea for a 3 phase device, and are
physically very large. We ended up protecting the
conductors leaving the cabinet with Class CC fuses, which
are approved for the use. By the time you buy the fuses and
a quality finger safe holder, they're more expensive than
the MCBs.

Here's a link to MCBs...
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=C-H/Common/AssetTemplateLink&c=Apubarticles&cid=
987090561951&Sec=products

and the big molded case breakers...
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=C-H/Common/AssetTemplateLink&c=Apubarticles&cid=
1063683114821&Sec=products

This article is a pretty good summary of the issue. If you
want to google up more the key words are "supplementary
protection", UL 489, and UL 1077.

http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/deionno.html

Ned Simmons
  #37   Report Post  
Matt
 
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GOOD GOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENOUGH!!!!!!

ITS ****ING 6 RECEPTACLES PEOPLE, NOT THE DISCOVERY OF PLUTONIUM.

  #38   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
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On 23 Feb 2005 18:06:25 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

GOOD GOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENOUGH!!!!!!

ITS ****ING 6 RECEPTACLES PEOPLE, NOT THE DISCOVERY OF PLUTONIUM.




Ha, ha, ha, ha....

Figured someone would break soon.

:-P


later,

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com


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