Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

If what you have is similar to the Leviton brand that I buy, it may be that
the switch rating is lower than the outlet rating. Just a guess, but it
seems like the switch is pretty light duty.

If you use the switch to cut power to the outlet, then you will also be
switching off everything down stream (connected to the "Load" side of the
device. You would need to be sure that the switch is rated for 15 or 20
amps depending on the rating of the circuit you are installing it on.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:33:35 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
lnet...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

If what you have is similar to the Leviton brand that I buy, it may be that
the switch rating is lower than the outlet rating. Just a guess, but it
seems like the switch is pretty light duty.

What brand and model number GFCI?


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

wrote:
If you use the switch to cut power to the outlet, then you will also be
switching off everything down stream (connected to the "Load" side of the
device. You would need to be sure that the switch is rated for 15 or 20
amps depending on the rating of the circuit you are installing it on.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:33:35 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?
If what you have is similar to the Leviton brand that I buy, it may be that
the switch rating is lower than the outlet rating. Just a guess, but it
seems like the switch is pretty light duty.



Hi,
As a result GFCI may trip.

wrote in message
...
If you use the switch to cut power to the outlet, then you will also be
switching off everything down stream (connected to the "Load" side of the
device. You would need to be sure that the switch is rated for 15 or 20
amps depending on the rating of the circuit you are installing it on.

Bingo!

I should have figured it out myself.

The outlet on the device is only 15 amps but, like most 15 amp outlets, it's
OK to put a 20 amp device (or several 15 amp devices) downstream.

Likewise, when a wall switch is used to control one or more "lamp" outlets
the total amps could exceed 15.

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and he
basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used on a 20 amp
circuit.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:33:35 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
alnet...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch
to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

If what you have is similar to the Leviton brand that I buy, it may be
that
the switch rating is lower than the outlet rating. Just a guess, but it
seems like the switch is pretty light duty.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
What brand and model number GFCI?

1) I picket it up at a BIG BOX hardware store (Lowe's)

2) Brand name seems to be "Cooper Wiring Devices." VGFS15V-M-L

3) Made in China (Red China, I suppose)

4) The device itself isn't marked with a model number, etc. (I guess it's
marketed thru several different companies.)




"John Gilmer" wrote in message
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch
to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch to
control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously attacked
by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is turned on and
off.

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.

Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.

Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated for
15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially) 20
amps?

Well, there seem to be some special rules for 15/20 amp stuff. For
example, a 15 amp outlet can "pass thru" juice to a 20 amp outlet. A 15
amp outlet can be on a 20 amp circuit.


Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?

Nope!

I implied by error the conversation I had was recent. It actually took
place about 2 years ago. I had some switched outlets and I couldn't find
20 amp SPST switches. That's when he told me I could put 15 amp rated
switches on a 20 amp #12 wire circuit.

In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.

Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?

I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.

Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?

I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of lights
that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

"Rich." wrote in message
...

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch
to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is turned
on and off.

Where exactly, did you read that?

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of
lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

Can we extend that logic to say that you can put a 15 amp switch on a "bank"
of 15 amp outlets?

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...


--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of
lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

Can we extend that logic to say that you can put a 15 amp switch on a
"bank" of 15 amp outlets?


Yes you can

Rich. wrote:

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch
and GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the
switch to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is
turned on and off.

You are close but what I'm thinking may be the reason could have to
do with the way a GFCI works. If you short the neutral and ground
on a GFCI outlet, the GFCI will trip. If power were to accidentally
energize the neutral on the circuit that the GFCI outlet is on and
the power to the electronic control is off, the outlet would not
trip. A GFCI will trip under all fault conditions, not just power
to ground. You should try to trip one by shorting the neutral to
ground and you'll see what I mean.

TDD

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:07:50 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Rich. wrote:

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch
and GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the
switch to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is
turned on and off.

You are close but what I'm thinking may be the reason could have to
do with the way a GFCI works. If you short the neutral and ground
on a GFCI outlet, the GFCI will trip. If power were to accidentally
energize the neutral on the circuit that the GFCI outlet is on and

Can't happen. That is what breakers are for.

the power to the electronic control is off, the outlet would not
trip. A GFCI will trip under all fault conditions, not just power
to ground. You should try to trip one by shorting the neutral to
ground and you'll see what I mean.

TDD

Metspitzer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:07:50 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Rich. wrote:
"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch
and GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the
switch to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?
The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is
turned on and off.
You are close but what I'm thinking may be the reason could have to
do with the way a GFCI works. If you short the neutral and ground
on a GFCI outlet, the GFCI will trip. If power were to accidentally
energize the neutral on the circuit that the GFCI outlet is on and

Can't happen. That is what breakers are for.


I've seen stranger things happen. Things like nails and screws
through wires causing extremely weird short circuits. Remember,
a breaker is for protecting the wiring, not people.

TDD

the power to the electronic control is off, the outlet would not
trip. A GFCI will trip under all fault conditions, not just power
to ground. You should try to trip one by shorting the neutral to
ground and you'll see what I mean.

TDD

RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of lights
that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.




Aren't we talking about a receptacle here? It may be intended for a
lamp, but that doesn't mean that's what will get plugged into it. If the
switch is 15A feeding a receptacle, I would at the very least split the
duplex so that only one side is controlled by the switch, otherwise
there is potential for a greater than 15A load.

When I wired my bath 25 years ago I put the outlet and lights (which had
outlets on them) on a switch. The circuit is Switch - GFCI - Lights.
This was done so the outlets on the lights would be GFCI protected. It has
worked well for 25 years with no false trips.


"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Rich." wrote in message
...

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch and
GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch
to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is
turned on and off.

Where exactly, did you read that?

"Mark" wrote in message
news
When I wired my bath 25 years ago I put the outlet and lights (which had
outlets on them) on a switch. The circuit is Switch - GFCI - Lights.
This was done so the outlets on the lights would be GFCI protected. It
has worked well for 25 years with no false trips.

There's no reason that it shouldn't




"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Rich." wrote in message
...

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...
Hi:

Because of a specific problem, I picked up a combination SPST switch
and GFCI single outlet with a "load" connection.

Anyway, the instructions clearly say that one should NOT use the switch
to control the input to the GFCI.

Why should that be a problem?

The electronics within the GFI are not designed to be continuously
attacked by the resulting electrical spikes each time the switch is
turned on and off.

Where exactly, did you read that?

RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of lights
that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles
would be a violation.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what
the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of
lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles
would be a violation.

--
bud--

This is one of the many NEC rules that make no sense to me. The same thing
with multiple disconnects on a service, the original installer may have
calculated the load, but who knows about any subsequent installations and
installers

RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what
the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of
lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles
would be a violation.

--
bud--

This is one of the many NEC rules that make no sense to me. The same thing
with multiple disconnects on a service, the original installer may have
calculated the load, but who knows about any subsequent installations and
installers

The way I read the thread I was agreeing with you. A 20A circuit with a
10A switch for a lighting fixture is OK because it is substantially
impossible to put over 1200W of lights in. Switching an outlet is more
of a problem.

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a
lot safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the
potential problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the
code is they are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes
them anymore.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is
rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing
(potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning
one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what
the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem.
Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture
containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all
parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic,
you wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the
switch capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a
bank of lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp
circuit.

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles
would be a violation.

--
bud--

This is one of the many NEC rules that make no sense to me. The same
thing with multiple disconnects on a service, the original installer may
have calculated the load, but who knows about any subsequent
installations and installers

The way I read the thread I was agreeing with you. A 20A circuit with a
10A switch for a lighting fixture is OK because it is substantially
impossible to put over 1200W of lights in. Switching an outlet is more of
a problem.

I understand that, it is in switching an outlet that I have the concern. I
don't believe there is any rule to disallow a 15 amp switch on , say a
single duplex outlet in a bedroom, that's fed from a 20 amp circuit. While
it's unlikely that the switch would be overloaded, why not just require the
switch ampacity to match the circuit, instead of what's being switched

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a lot
safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the potential
problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the code is they
are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes them anymore.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. I run into the damn things all the
time. You go to a house to install an outlet for a microwave, check the
panel, it's a split buss with a total of 250 amps worth of mains on #2 AL.
Then you have to do a load calculation of the whole house and make sure your
liability is paid up, before you add the one stupid outlet
--
bud--

On Aug 29, 1:22*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.

Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what the
electrician meant?

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Switches need only be adequate for the load that they control. It is
very common in US practice to use ten ampere switches on fifteen
ampere circuits and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the
load to be controlled does not exceed the rating of the switch.
Switches controlling receptacle outlets should never be less than the
rating of the circuit because the cord and plug connected load could
well be the entire ampacity of the circuit.
--
Tom Horne

404.14 Rating and Use of Snap Switches.
Snap switches shall be used within their ratings and as indicated in
404.14(A) through (D).

(A) Alternating Current General-Use Snap Switch. A form of general-use
snap switch suitable only for use on ac circuits for controlling the
following:
(1) Resistive and inductive loads, including electric-discharge lamps,
not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at the voltage
involved
(2) Tungsten-filament lamp loads not exceeding the ampere rating of
the switch at 120 volts
(3) Motor loads not exceeding 80 percent of the ampere rating of the
switch at its rated voltage
(B) Alternating-Current or Direct-Current General-Use Snap Switch. A
form of general-use snap switch suitable for use on either ac or dc
circuits for controlling the following:
(1) Resistive loads not exceeding the ampere rating of the switch at
the voltage applied.
(2) Inductive loads not exceeding 50 percent of the ampere rating of
the switch at the applied voltage. Switches rated in horsepower are
suitable for controlling motor loads within their rating at the
voltage applied.
(3) Tungsten-filament lamp loads not exceeding the ampere rating of
the switch at the applied voltage if T-rated.

On Aug 30, 6:46*pm, bud-- wrote:
RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
. ..
RBM wrote:
"Salmon Egg" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/29/2009 8:09 AM John Gilmer spake thus:

I mentioned that to the electrician (licensed, experiences, etc) and
he basically said that 15 amp "light" switches can be properly used
on a 20 amp circuit.
Where did he get that idea?

That one doesn't even pass the common-sense test. If a device is rated
for 15 amps, how is it OK to use it on a circuit drawing (potentially)
20 amps?

Now, I could see using a 15 amp switch on a 15-amp circuit (meaning one
connected to a 15 amp breaker) but wired with #12 wire. Is that what
the
electrician meant?
I am not a real expert on the subject but I do not see the problem. Very
few lights would even come close to requiring 15 A. A fixture containing
three 100 watt lamps requires less than three A on a 120 V power line
(neglecting inrush current). You can always screw things up by placing
an overload exceeding 20 *even if had 20 A switches.

Electrical codes can be arbitrary, but I would be surprised if all parts
of a circuit must always be matched to each other.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop! Avoid collateral windfall!

We have a winner!! * You can't put a single 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp
circuit, because the potential to overload it, and by the same logic, you
wouldn't put a 10 amp or 15 amp switch on a load greater than the switch
capacity, but you certainly can install a 15 amp switch on a bank of
lights that draws 10 amps, which is fed off of a 20 amp circuit.

I agree.

The NEC requires "switches shall be used within their ratings".

IMHO a 15A switch on 20A circuit with 20A or multiple 15A receptacles
would be a violation.

--
bud--

This is one of the many NEC rules that make no sense to me. The same thing
with multiple disconnects on a service, the original installer may have
calculated the load, but who knows about any subsequent installations and
installers

The way I read the thread I was agreeing with you. A 20A circuit with a
10A switch for a lighting fixture is OK because it is substantially
impossible to put over 1200W of lights in. Switching an outlet is more
of a problem.

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a
lot safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the
potential problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the
code is they are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes
them anymore.

--
bud--

Bud
They are effectively forbidden by the requirement that "Each lighting
and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually
protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit
breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater
than that of the panelboard."
--
Tom Horne


408.14 Classification of Panelboards.
Panelboards shall be classified for the purposes of this article as
either lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards or power
panelboards, based on their content. A lighting and appliance branch
circuit is a branch circuit that has a connection to the neutral of
the panelboard and that has overcurrent protection of 30 amperes or
less in one or more conductors.
(A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard. A lighting and
appliance branch-circuit panelboard is one having more than 10 percent
of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance branch
circuits.
(B) Power Panelboard. A power panelboard is one having 10 percent or
fewer of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance
branch circuits.

408.16 Overcurrent Protection.
(A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard Individually
Protected. Each lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall
be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main
circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not
greater than that of the panelboard.
Exception No. 1: Individual protection for a lighting and appliance
panelboard shall not be required if the panelboard feeder has
overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard.

On 2009-08-31, Tom Horne wrote:

On Aug 30, 6:46Â*pm, bud-- wrote:

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a
lot safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the
potential problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the
code is they are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes
them anymore.

Bud
They are effectively forbidden by the requirement that "Each lighting
and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually
protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit
breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater
than that of the panelboard."

The notion of lighting and appliance panelboard has been removed from
the 2008 NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

Tom Horne wrote:
On Aug 30, 6:46 pm, bud-- wrote:

Multiple service disconnects could certainly be a problem - they are a
lot safer if non-electricians leave them alone. IMHO most of the
potential problems are "split-bus" panels in a house. My reading of the
code is they are still allowed but I don't know if anyone even makes
them anymore.

--
bud--

Bud
They are effectively forbidden by the requirement that "Each lighting
and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be individually
protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit
breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater
than that of the panelboard."

Wayne is right that "lighting and appliance panelboards" disappeared in
the 2008 NEC. You are quoting a NEC version before 2005 (but 2005
probably said the same thing, relocated).

The 2008 NEC also has the same requirements, I believe, as what you
quoted, with the 42 pole limit moved into the main article text, which
is 408.36 exception 2.

My reading is that you can have a split bus panel, but that there can
only be 2 main circuit breakers (instead of the previous 6). (One
breaker feeds the split bus in the rest of the panel and the 2nd breaker
can feed your flying saucer port on the roof.) The sum of the main
breaker ratings has to be not greater than the panelboard rating, but
there is nothing in this article that I see that prevents the 2 devices
from having a rating larger than the service wires using the 6
disconnect rule.

IMHO this is one of the articles where it would help to be a lawyer. (Or
maybe not.) You might have used a different lawyer?

--
bud--



408.14 Classification of Panelboards.
Panelboards shall be classified for the purposes of this article as
either lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards or power
panelboards, based on their content. A lighting and appliance branch
circuit is a branch circuit that has a connection to the neutral of
the panelboard and that has overcurrent protection of 30 amperes or
less in one or more conductors.
(A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard. A lighting and
appliance branch-circuit panelboard is one having more than 10 percent
of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance branch
circuits.
(B) Power Panelboard. A power panelboard is one having 10 percent or
fewer of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance
branch circuits.

408.16 Overcurrent Protection.
(A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard Individually
Protected. Each lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall
be individually protected on the supply side by not more than two main
circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not
greater than that of the panelboard.
Exception No. 1: Individual protection for a lighting and appliance
panelboard shall not be required if the panelboard feeder has
overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard.