KLS wrote:
If "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is rescinded, there is no doubt that
hundreds of otherwise ineligible folks would join up.

What do you mean by "otherwise ineligible"? The military is already
accepting functional illiterates, ex-cons, and others who can't get
civilian jobs out of desperation to get troops over into the war
zones. And has discharged a number of gay linguists who could speak
Arabic and Farsi, languages vital to efforts supporting our national
security.

Not so. Every branch of the military as met its yearly recruiting and
re-enlistment goals with three months left to go. Eight-five percent of the
ground forces that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have re-enlisted at
the first opportunity. The remaining fifteen percent retired, invalided out,
or married harridans.

As for accepting "functional illiterates,' again, not so. Virtually all
members of the military are high-school graduates (or equivalent) and more
than half have significant college credits.

As for gays that speak Farsi, Pashtu, Arabic, etc., they may have uses in
the government. If so, they can work for NSA, the Girl Scouts, or similar.
If you put them out in front, dealing with Muslim civilians and government
leaders, tell me true: How do you think they would be received or treated by
a culture for which homosexuality is abhorrent?


By some estimates, however, as
many as two million members of the armed services (out of three
million) would separate themselves from the service at the first
opportunity.

I believe you wax hyperbolic. I also think you greatly underestimate
the ability of intelligent people to bond over common cause and
service to our nation.

This was a survey done, I think, by Army Times. They reported 65% of
existing members would not serve with gays. The National Command Authority,
from the Joint Chiefs on down, are unanimously opposed. I suggest that these
people are intelligent. For example, consider the "intelligence" of the JCS:

Mike Mullins, Chairman: Post-graduate degrees from Naval Postgraduate School
and Harvard Business
James Cartwright, Vice Chairman: Master of Arts, Naval War College, MIT
Fellowship
George Casey, Jr., Chief of Staff, U.S. Army: B.S. Georgetown, M.A. Univ of
Denver
Gary Roughead, Chief of Naval Operations: B.S. U.S. Naval Academy
Norton A. Schwartz, Chief of Staff, USAF: B.S., Air Force Academy, MBA
Michigan, MIT Fellow
James Terry Conway, Commandant, Marine Corps: Bachelors, SE Missouri



Having gays in the infantry is, in my view, not a good idea. We just
can't take weeks to kill an enemy soldier!

What? Please translate that last sentence; it makes no sense.

It has to do with the forcible draining of precious bodily fluids - the
purity of essence. I'm reluctant to go into detail.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've got to disagree with that concept. Of course, a person
can affect what comes after death. That's the entire reason
for repentance, commandments, acts of service, etc. Even a
few Non-Mormons understand that concept.

If you're doing something because you think it will get you into heaven or
keep you out of Hell you're doing it for the wrong reason.

Stormin Mormon is always posting his LDS sig line here, so I'll post one
that is riveting reading:

http://www.exmormon.org/

The book, "Secret Ceremonies" by Deborah Laake is also a riveting read into
the inside world of an LDS wife, which is one step above a chattel or cow in
Mormon society.

Enjoy.

Steve

In article , wrote:

Doug, you have a fine young man for a son, anyone
who says different is a jerk. I wish there were
many more young folks like you son out there. I
understand your pride and your wish to share it.

Thank you.

You have every right to brag, perhaps you had a
little bit to do with it. *snicker*

I actually had very little to do with the project. My role could be described
as "technical consultant" perhaps -- things like suggesting that reducing the
planned width of the box by 1/4" made it possible to cut all fourteen backs
out of one sheet of plywood instead of two; likewise for the plexiglass
fronts. I showed him how to plan his cuts on the table saw to minimize the
need to change setups. I told him he ought to use stainless steel nails, not
galvanized, in cedar, and why. I showed him how to make simple jigs to make
sure cuts were made, and holes were drilled, in consistent repeatable
locations.

But he came up with the idea, he planned the project, he raised the funds, he
bought the materials (or arranged for them to be donated), he made *all* the
saw cuts, he organized the team of volunteers to assemble the boxes, he
directed them. He made sure the "Call Before You Dig" folks marked the area so
the post-hole auger wouldn't hit any buried utilities. He talked the owner of
a construction company into drilling the holes for him, and showed him where
to drill the holes, and how deep. He supervised the final assembly and
installation of all fourteen stations. He hired a local engraving company to
make the brass "In memory of..." plaques, and kept careful track of who had
endowed which station, to make sure the plaques wound up on the right posts.

Yes, I "had a little bit to do with it." Literally a little bit. But it was
his project. Not mine.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Yes, totally so. I woulda never got baptized, if it weren't
for the promise of a better afterlife. Nor would I have done
any temple ordinances.

Oh, I thought you meant something that actually made a difference for
somebody other than you.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
There can be more than one reason. But, I've done a lot of
things in order to improve my eternal afterlife.

Would you have done them differently if you were not
attempting to improve
your afterlife?

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I was asking for acute angle. I had to lose some wait, cause
I was considered obtuse.

Sorry if I was confusing. Let me restate.

I come from a tradition that teaches good works are good for their own sake,
not as an entrance fee to the hereafter and that was the message I was
trying to convey. My tradition teaches that dwelling on the hereafter takes
time and effort away from these good works and is, therefore, discouraged.

On the other hand, if someone's faith holds that one earns entrance in the
world to come by doing good deeds, that's okay with me - the good gets done
and I'm not too anal about the motivation.

On the other, other, hand, there is at least one religion that provides
entrance to paradise is achieved principally by expanding the reach of the
religion. If this reach is achieved by forcibly imposing the doctrine or
killing apostates, infidels, and non-believers, that earns the actor a
ticket in first class. And maybe even virgins.

Point is, if one's motivation is driven solely by a desire to enter a better
place, the worldly results of that desire can be quite wicked.

SteveB wrote:

The book, "Secret Ceremonies" by Deborah Laake is also a riveting
read into the inside world of an LDS wife, which is one step above a
chattel or cow in Mormon society.


Chattel bull?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:

Doug, you have a fine young man for a son, anyone
who says different is a jerk. I wish there were
many more young folks like you son out there. I
understand your pride and your wish to share it.

Thank you.

You have every right to brag, perhaps you had a
little bit to do with it. *snicker*

I actually had very little to do with the project. My role could be described
as "technical consultant" perhaps -- things like suggesting that reducing the
planned width of the box by 1/4" made it possible to cut all fourteen backs
out of one sheet of plywood instead of two; likewise for the plexiglass
fronts. I showed him how to plan his cuts on the table saw to minimize the
need to change setups. I told him he ought to use stainless steel nails, not
galvanized, in cedar, and why. I showed him how to make simple jigs to make
sure cuts were made, and holes were drilled, in consistent repeatable
locations.

But he came up with the idea, he planned the project, he raised the funds, he
bought the materials (or arranged for them to be donated), he made *all* the
saw cuts, he organized the team of volunteers to assemble the boxes, he
directed them. He made sure the "Call Before You Dig" folks marked the area so
the post-hole auger wouldn't hit any buried utilities. He talked the owner of
a construction company into drilling the holes for him, and showed him where
to drill the holes, and how deep. He supervised the final assembly and
installation of all fourteen stations. He hired a local engraving company to
make the brass "In memory of..." plaques, and kept careful track of who had
endowed which station, to make sure the plaques wound up on the right posts.

Yes, I "had a little bit to do with it." Literally a little bit. But it was
his project. Not mine.

Well, what I meant was the creation of the outstanding young man.
Get it now? ROFL

TDD

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:19:49 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: [nothing that directly answered any of my questions and a great
deal that goes off on other tangents]

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

SteveB wrote:

The book, "Secret Ceremonies" by Deborah Laake is also a riveting
read into the inside world of an LDS wife, which is one step above a
chattel or cow in Mormon society.


Chattel bull?

My kids always loved Chattel's Barbie Dolls.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I was asking for acute angle. I had to lose some wait, cause
I was considered obtuse.

Sorry if I was confusing. Let me restate.

I come from a tradition that teaches good works are good for their own
sake, not as an entrance fee to the hereafter and that was the message
I was trying to convey. My tradition teaches that dwelling on the
hereafter takes time and effort away from these good works and is,
therefore, discouraged.

On the other hand, if someone's faith holds that one earns entrance in
the world to come by doing good deeds, that's okay with me - the good
gets done and I'm not too anal about the motivation.

On the other, other, hand, there is at least one religion that
provides entrance to paradise is achieved principally by expanding the
reach of the religion. If this reach is achieved by forcibly imposing
the doctrine or killing apostates, infidels, and non-believers, that
earns the actor a ticket in first class. And maybe even virgins.

Point is, if one's motivation is driven solely by a desire to enter a
better place, the worldly results of that desire can be quite wicked.

I am more of an agnostic, but still believe in the performance of good
works (or whatever name you'd give it) as an end in itself. Even
helping the ltlle old lady across the street she wants to cross is a
good deed, although there are and should be "bigger" things to strive
for. The abuse of virgins is just that - abuse. Even the thought
should be abhorrent, unless the virgin really wants to shed the
appellation.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article , wrote:

Well, what I meant was the creation of the outstanding young man.
Get it now? ROFL

I do. Sorry I misunderstood your meaning.

If you go back and read the text you deleted. You mentioned
discussing angles and pins.

There is an old religious debate about "how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin". However, you had a dyslexic
moment, and spelled the word angELs backwards, and it came
out angLEs.

An angLE is the shape described by two lines intersecting on
a plane. I truly was being obtuse. Spelling lampoon, that
was my angle. I'm certainly not an angel on usenet.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I was asking for acute angle. I had to lose some wait,
cause
I was considered obtuse.

Sorry if I was confusing. Let me restate.

I come from a tradition that teaches good works are good for
their own sake,
not as an entrance fee to the hereafter and that was the
message I was
trying to convey. My tradition teaches that dwelling on the
hereafter takes
time and effort away from these good works and is,
therefore, discouraged.

On the other hand, if someone's faith holds that one earns
entrance in the
world to come by doing good deeds, that's okay with me - the
good gets done
and I'm not too anal about the motivation.

On the other, other, hand, there is at least one religion
that provides
entrance to paradise is achieved principally by expanding
the reach of the
religion. If this reach is achieved by forcibly imposing the
doctrine or
killing apostates, infidels, and non-believers, that earns
the actor a
ticket in first class. And maybe even virgins.

Point is, if one's motivation is driven solely by a desire
to enter a better
place, the worldly results of that desire can be quite
wicked.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
If you go back and read the text you deleted. You mentioned
discussing angles and pins.

There is an old religious debate about "how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin". However, you had a dyslexic
moment, and spelled the word angELs backwards, and it came
out angLEs.

An angLE is the shape described by two lines intersecting on
a plane. I truly was being obtuse. Spelling lampoon, that
was my angle. I'm certainly not an angel on usenet.



Oh. Sorry. My grammer chequer didn't catch it.

Smitty Two wrote:

I just watched "Religulous." We non-believers see all religions as
absolutely, completely insane.

Speak for yourself you pretentious, pompous ass!

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Smitty Two wrote:

I just watched "Religulous." We non-believers see all religions as
absolutely, completely insane. 93 % of scientists are in that camp.

Hmm. "I consider myself a monothiest of the Hebrew persuasion." Sir Issac
Newton.

And it's not the religion that's insane, it's some of the people who
practice it.

'Course all this was settled in the 13th Century by Thomas Aquinas ("Summa
Theologica" for the Christians), Maimonides ("Guide for the Perplexed" for
the Jews), and Abu al-Walid Muhammad Ibn Rushid ("The Great Commentary" for
the Muslims).

You really should keep up.

Some Guy wrote:

I thought scouting was about out-door stuff, survival, being prepared,
etc.

What do chuch-related activities have to do with any of that?

You cannot be in Boy Scouts if you don't "believe." You have to be
'loyal and reverent to God' but they don't tell you which god to believe
in, and you don't have to believe in a supreme being, and "believe" is
very subjective. It's very much "don't ask, don't tell" for atheists and
agnostics. You can believe in Satan, Buddha, or Barack Obama as god. I
remember the Cubmaster in my son's Cub Scout pack trying to avoid any of
the religious aspects for fear of offending non-believers, until one of
the believers explained to him that "believing" was required by BSA. Our
pack was diverse, with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, but was
mostly non-believers that simply didn't talk about it.

The sponsoring organization of my son's old pack and previous troop is a
church that used to do good work in the community, including hosting a
county senior lunch program, until the church board changed and someone
got upset that the county would not allow proselytizing of the lunch
program participants. They shut down the program with only a few days
notice. If they knew how many non-believers were in the Cub Scout and
Boy Scout units they sponsor then they'd probably throw them out as well.

I was talking to a leader of a Venture Crew (Boy Scout's Coed
organization for 14-20 year olds) and he said that it's just not going
to happen to separate scouting from religion because the Mormon church
is very powerful in the scouting organization and they oppose it. Ditto
for admitting gays.

There's a misconception that an Eagle Scout project has to be beneficial
to the community. In fact, it's more of a project management
achievement, and it doesn't matter what the project is or if it benefits
society, as long as it's done to completion meeting certain criteria. A
project that benefits a church is acceptable.

It's all rather sad that scouting requires boys to ignore science and
embrace made-up fantasies in order to participate. Actually it just
teaches them, early in life, that they have to lie about certain things.

The U.S. is pretty unique in terms of the way scouting is run. In other
countries it's usually co-ed and non-discriminatory.

On Jul 18, 8:05*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
My son A.J. finished his Eagle Scout project today: construction and
installation of the Stations of the Cross on the grounds of Cardinal Ritter
High School (his alma mater) and St. Michael's Catholic Church here in
Indianapolis.

(Note to non-Catholics: the Stations of the Cross is a devotional intended to
encourage meditation on the sufferings and death of Jesus Christ. It consists
of fourteen icons depicting various events during His Passion, beginning with
his condemnation by Pilate, leading up to and ending with his body being laid
in the tomb.)

Photos of the completed project hehttp://s663.photobucket.com/albums/u...albumview=slid...

Project concept, design, and management by my son.
Scrollsaw work by my wife.
Construction and installation by my son and over a dozen volunteer helpers.
Special thanks to Carter-Lee Lumber Company of Indianapolis
www.carterlee.com for their very generous donation of *all* of the lumber
used in this project.

On Jul 22, 6:40*pm, RonB wrote:
On Jul 18, 8:05*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

My son A.J. finished his Eagle Scout project today: construction and
installation of the Stations of the Cross on the grounds of Cardinal Ritter
High School (his alma mater) and St. Michael's Catholic Church here in
Indianapolis.

(Note to non-Catholics: the Stations of the Cross is a devotional intended to
encourage meditation on the sufferings and death of Jesus Christ. It consists
of fourteen icons depicting various events during His Passion, beginning with
his condemnation by Pilate, leading up to and ending with his body being laid
in the tomb.)

Photos of the completed project hehttp://s663.photobucket.com/albums/u...albumview=slid...

Project concept, design, and management by my son.
Scrollsaw work by my wife.
Construction and installation by my son and over a dozen volunteer helpers.
Special thanks to Carter-Lee Lumber Company of Indianapolis
www.carterlee.com for their very generous donation of *all* of the lumber
used in this project.

100 posts and well deserved. Not many make rank of Eagle and those
who do deserve congratulations.

Congratulations!!!

RonB

SMS wrote:
Some Guy wrote:

I thought scouting was about out-door stuff, survival, being prepared,
etc.

What do chuch-related activities have to do with any of that?

You cannot be in Boy Scouts if you don't "believe." You have to be
'loyal and reverent to God' but they don't tell you which god to believe
in, and you don't have to believe in a supreme being, and "believe" is
very subjective. It's very much "don't ask, don't tell" for atheists and
agnostics. You can believe in Satan, Buddha, or Barack Obama as god. I
remember the Cubmaster in my son's Cub Scout pack trying to avoid any of
the religious aspects for fear of offending non-believers, until one of
the believers explained to him that "believing" was required by BSA. Our
pack was diverse, with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, but was
mostly non-believers that simply didn't talk about it.

The sponsoring organization of my son's old pack and previous troop is a
church that used to do good work in the community, including hosting a
county senior lunch program, until the church board changed and someone
got upset that the county would not allow proselytizing of the lunch
program participants. They shut down the program with only a few days
notice. If they knew how many non-believers were in the Cub Scout and
Boy Scout units they sponsor then they'd probably throw them out as well.

I was talking to a leader of a Venture Crew (Boy Scout's Coed
organization for 14-20 year olds) and he said that it's just not going
to happen to separate scouting from religion because the Mormon church
is very powerful in the scouting organization and they oppose it. Ditto
for admitting gays.

There's a misconception that an Eagle Scout project has to be beneficial
to the community. In fact, it's more of a project management
achievement, and it doesn't matter what the project is or if it benefits
society, as long as it's done to completion meeting certain criteria. A
project that benefits a church is acceptable.

It's all rather sad that scouting requires boys to ignore science and
embrace made-up fantasies in order to participate. Actually it just
teaches them, early in life, that they have to lie about certain things.

The U.S. is pretty unique in terms of the way scouting is run. In other
countries it's usually co-ed and non-discriminatory.

For what it is worth, I have been the Scout Master in 3 different
troops. Each sponsored differently.
First on was sponsored by the Lions Club
Second one by the Catholic Church
Third by the local VFW.
Religion was seldom mentioned

Chuck wrote in
:


For what it is worth, I have been the Scout Master in 3 different
troops. Each sponsored differently.
First on was sponsored by the Lions Club
Second one by the Catholic Church
Third by the local VFW.
Religion was seldom mentioned

Don't ask don't tell?

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
, Smitty
Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
My son A.J. finished his Eagle Scout project today: construction and
installation of the Stations of the Cross on the grounds of Cardinal
Ritter
High School (his alma mater) and St. Michael's Catholic Church here in
Indianapolis.
Congratulations on raising an Eagle Scout!!
And my sympathies for raising a catholic.
Was that really necessary?

I just watched "Religulous." We non-believers see all religions as
absolutely, completely insane. 93 % of scientists are in that camp.
Hmmm,
Good for you. I am a catholic. Having a religion is not that important.
Having a faith is. Sounds like you are not old enough. You are in
control, Eh? Einstein said?

on 7/19/2009 8:14 AM (ET) Doug Miller wrote the following:
In article , Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
Swingman wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:

My son A.J. finished his Eagle Scout project today: construction and
installation of the Stations of the Cross on the grounds of Cardinal Ritter

High School (his alma mater) and St. Michael's Catholic Church here in
Indianapolis.

Congratulations on raising an Eagle Scout!!

And my sympathies for raising a catholic.


Was that really necessary?


There are three things that should never be discussed in public.
Religion, politics, and the second amendment.
:-)

Smitty Two wrote:
I just watched "Religulous." We non-believers see all religions as
absolutely, completely insane. 93 % of scientists are in that camp.

Doug Miller wrote:
Fine --

No it's not "fine". I'm a non-believer and I don't see "all religions
as absolutely, completely insane". At the very, very least, most
religions are attempting to lead people in a moral direction. Nothing
insane about that is there?

Personally, as a non-believer, I'm sick of the little weasel scum bags
thinking they are speaking for ME. They are not, and their are plenty
of non-believers that are not so insecure that they feel any need to
attack believers.

Your son did a great job, and your wife too. I'm certain his
achievement of Eagle scout status will benefit him throughout life, as
it has so many before him.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com


--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Chuck wrote:

For what it is worth, I have been the Scout Master in 3 different
troops. Each sponsored differently.
First on was sponsored by the Lions Club
Second one by the Catholic Church
Third by the local VFW.
Religion was seldom mentioned

Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.

In article ,
SMS wrote:



Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.

a I have no problems with sponsoring organization pushing religion if it
is a religious organization.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
SMS wrote:



Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.

a I have no problems with sponsoring organization pushing religion if it
is a religious organization.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

I was an assistant scoutmaster in a troop sponsored by a church. I took all
of the leadership training available.

In seven years, I never heard a boy say the was Christian or agnostic. I
never heard it in the training either.

The church never pushed it's doctrine.

It seems to me that a lot of people here without any experience with the
scouts are talking about things they know nothing about.

Scouting is about citizenship, preparedness, and helping others, just basic
good stewardship.

In article ,
"Lowell Holmes" wrote:

In seven years, I never heard a boy say the was Christian or agnostic. I
never heard it in the training either.

The church never pushed it's doctrine.

That's okay, too. Just if one goes to a religious sponsored group,
they shouldn't act surprised and upset if it comes up.


It seems to me that a lot of people here without any experience with the
scouts are talking about things they know nothing about.

On Usenet. Impossible. (g).

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Lowell Holmes" wrote:

That's okay, too. Just if one goes to a religious sponsored group,
they shouldn't act surprised and upset if it comes up.


It seems to me that a lot of people here without any experience with the
scouts are talking about things they know nothing about.

On Usenet. Impossible. (g).

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

Kurt,
I really was not responding to you. Some of the other posts are pretty
incredible. I had resisted posting before.

The kids went to have fun. We canoed in white water, rock climbed, back pack
camped and so on. I don't understand why a bunch of adults don't understand
that.

I wonder how many of us could survive Philmont? :-)

At one time, I bled Boy Scout Khaki.

"Lowell Holmes" writes:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Lowell Holmes" wrote:

That's okay, too. Just if one goes to a religious sponsored group,
they shouldn't act surprised and upset if it comes up.


It seems to me that a lot of people here without any experience with the
scouts are talking about things they know nothing about.

On Usenet. Impossible. (g).

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

Kurt,
I really was not responding to you. Some of the other posts are pretty
incredible. I had resisted posting before.

The kids went to have fun. We canoed in white water, rock climbed, back pack
camped and so on. I don't understand why a bunch of adults don't understand
that.

I wonder how many of us could survive Philmont? :-)

Been there, done that, got the eagle ('76).

Scouting has changed in the 30 years since - much more religious
than it used to be.

scott

Lowell Holmes wrote:
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
SMS wrote:


Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.
a I have no problems with sponsoring organization pushing religion if it
is a religious organization.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

I was an assistant scoutmaster in a troop sponsored by a church. I took all
of the leadership training available.

In seven years, I never heard a boy say the was Christian or agnostic. I
never heard it in the training either.

The church never pushed it's doctrine.

It seems to me that a lot of people here without any experience with the
scouts are talking about things they know nothing about.

Scouting is about citizenship, preparedness, and helping others, just basic
good stewardship.


Similar for me in Girl Scouts, long ago. Church-sponsored troop,
leaders were members of my church, although not all of the scouts were.
I don't recall ever hearing faith or religion mentioned - not sure we
even said grace before meals. Meetings were at church. I went to
school with kids from just about every imaginable faith, so I think it
was expected that membership included all. I haven't the stomach for
the religious freaks who want to use their faith/religion as a club;
never have.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
SMS wrote:


Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.

a I have no problems with sponsoring organization pushing religion if it
is a religious organization.


I do. Scouting is not about Religion. It is about Faith. Big difference.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...

Sounds like you are not old enough. You are in control, Eh? Einstein said?

You're probably right. Religion is dying out with the older generations. The
younger ones have a hard time believing in ghosts, goblins and magic.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
SMS wrote:


Yeah, that's the best way. If on one side, no one makes a big deal out
of proclaiming that they're an agnostic or atheist, and on the other
side the sponsoring organization doesn't push religion, then everything
works out okay. It's when someone feels the need to complain about
hypocrisy that things escalate out of control.

a I have no problems with sponsoring organization pushing religion if it
is a religious organization.

The issue is that it doesn't matter which organization sponsors the
troop, it's open to anyone that wants to join. So it wouldn't be
acceptable for the organization, if it was a church, to be proselytizing
for their particular religion. The sponsor generally just provides a
room to use, though even that isn't guaranteed. The pack my son was in
was sponsored by a Presbyterian church, a fact I wasn't even aware of
for four years because we met at a school that we got to use for free
because one of the teachers had a boy in the pack. When the teacher's
son aged out of Cub Scouts we needed to find a room, and that's when we
approached the sponsor.

Some packs and troops do have some religious aspect by default. The
troops sponsored by the synagogue don't have outings on Friday night or
Saturday. The Moslem and Jewish troops don't allow certain food items to
be used for group cooking.

Lowell Holmes wrote:

The church never pushed it's doctrine.

My experience has been more with the parents pushing for the religious
aspect, especially in "Scout's Own" which happens to almost always occur
on Sunday mornings.

Scouting is about citizenship, preparedness, and helping others, just basic
good stewardship.

IMVAIO, that's _all_ that it should be about. How god ever got involved
is a mystery. But god seems to get involved in a lot of things.

"http://www.reverent-scout.net/reverent-scout/Scouts_Own.htm"

In any case, it looks like a good Eagle Scout project, one of the better
one's I've seen done. I like Eagle Scout projects that actually build
something creative. Some of the projects in my son's old troop were
beneficial, but pretty lame, i.e. repairing some bleachers at a school.

wrote:
I haven't the stomach for
the religious freaks who want to use their faith/religion as a club;
never have.

The problem is that there are some of those freaks, almost always
adults, that will use the BSA "duty to god" clause to force religion
into the pack or troop. It never seemed to be a problem back before the
"Moral Majority" and other right-wing religious groups started appearing.

To become a WEBELOS cub scout you are _required_ to:

Either “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith” or do two of the
following:

“Attend the church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious
organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your
beliefs, and tell your family and Webelos den leader about what you
learned.”;

“Tell how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and
Scout Law, Discuss this with your family and Webelos den leader: What
character-building traits do your beliefs and the Scout Oath and Scout
Law have in common?”;

“With your religious leader, discuss and write down two things you
think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things.”;

“Pray to God or meditate reverently each day as taught by your
family, and by your church, synagogue, or religious group. Do this for
at least one month.”;

“Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service
for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos
den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.”; or

“List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your
religious beliefs.”

Most packs simply pay no attention to this requirement. Most scouts have
no "religious leader" at all, and couldn't even fulfill many of those
items (though only two are required). But a parent could demand that the
pack enforce the requirement. We has a pack master that tried to not
have anything to do with religion in the pack because he said that he
didn't want to offend anyone that was a non-believer. He was reminded by
some parents that non-believers were not allowed in scouts and that he
had to do the religion bit.

If a pack consisted only of boys from a particular church then it
wouldn't be a problem, but that doesn't seem to be the case very often
around my area. The units sponsored by the churches I know of are very
diverse. I expect that few non-Jews (and even many Jews) would join a
pack or troop sponsored by a conservative or orthodox synagogue, not
because of anti-antisemitism, but because there are no overnight trips
that can occur on Friday night to Saturday. I expect that Mormon
church-sponsored units consist only of Mormons, but I could be wrong.

I'd love to see scouting separated completely from religion, as is the
case in most other countries. I'd also like to see it become co-ed as is
the case in most other countries, and a little bit in BSA, with co-ed
Venture Crews (of which my daughter is a member). I remember when my son
was in Cub Scouts, and most day outings included families, and how my
daughter was upset that she couldn't go on the overnight outings. Girl
Scouts just didn't cut it, they were more into crafts and such things.
If she thought joining a Venture crew would help her meet boys she was
disappointed, as the crews around her are mostly girls.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
My experience has been more with the parents pushing for the religious
aspect, especially in "Scout's Own" which happens to almost always occur
on Sunday mornings.

Scouting is about citizenship, preparedness, and helping others, just
basic good stewardship.

IMVAIO, that's _all_ that it should be about. How god ever got involved is
a mystery. But god seems to get involved in a lot of things.

It seems that you are determined to press the religious aspect. What's your
problem?

I would suggest that parents have the right and responsibility concerning
the religious training of their own children.
If you don't like it, take your child out.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
There can be more than one reason. But, I've done a lot of
things in order to improve my eternal afterlife.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org


What have you been doing to improve the afterlife of the thousands of
innocent souls tortured and murdered during the Inquisition?

Kalarama wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
There can be more than one reason. But, I've done a lot of
things in order to improve my eternal afterlife.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org


What have you been doing to improve the afterlife of the thousands of
innocent souls tortured and murdered during the Inquisition?

Probably the same sorts of things that Jews and Muslims and the like have
been doing--don't assume because Mormons are religious and American that
they are Christians in the same sense that Catholics or Protestants are
Christian--while they recognize the divinity of Christ, they have their own
revelation that is independent of the Bible. Blaming them for the
Inquisition is like blaming the Pope for 9/11.

Me, personally, not a thing. But as thier names and such
become available through genealogy extraction, we do their
temple work for them. So they can adavance in the gospel.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Kalarama" wrote in message
...


What have you been doing to improve the afterlife of the
thousands of
innocent souls tortured and murdered during the Inquisition?

Yes, it's possible to read some accusation and blame into
that question. I preferred to see it as a practical
question. So, what all do we actually DO to make things
better? I try my best to be a practical person.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
What have you been doing to improve the afterlife of the
thousands of
innocent souls tortured and murdered during the
Inquisition?

Probably the same sorts of things that Jews and Muslims and
the like have
been doing--don't assume because Mormons are religious and
American that
they are Christians in the same sense that Catholics or
Protestants are
Christian--while they recognize the divinity of Christ, they
have their own
revelation that is independent of the Bible. Blaming them
for the
Inquisition is like blaming the Pope for 9/11.