Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

wrote in message
...
Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

Little story:

"2nd happiest day of my life was the day I bought my boat. The happiest day
of my life was the day I sold my boat."

"Boat" can be replaced with "Hot Tub" or "Pool Table".

I would buy an indoor Jacuzzi Bath Tub.

Hot tubs are a hassle to keep the water clean and balanced. Heating the
water is another story.

I had a hot tub and sold it after 1 year. It had several problems but I
learned that I don't want a stand alone hot tub. My "new" house (been here 6
years now) has a pool with a hot tub attached to the pool, and water
maintenance is a breeze. It has to do with the volume of water. For some
reason large volumes of water are much easier to keep clean and balanced.
When the tub gets "dirty", for lack of a better word, I can dump the water
into the pool and start fresh.

If you do get an electric HT make sure it's a 220 volt. A 110 volt will kill
you with electric bills. If there is anyway you can get natural gas that is
the way to go.

YMMV

od

wrote:
....
My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.
....

Paint a stock tank black and put it in the sun...

--

wrote:

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.

I just joined the hot-tub crowd last October. bought a $600 tub off
Craigslist- replaced a pump [$200] and a heating element [$30].

I did the wrestling & electrical work. You'll need a 50-60 amp 220v
GFCI box installed. [I agree with the olddog that you're nuts to try
110] I also added some insulation to my 6-8 yr old Thermospa.

I've got about $1000 invested in the tub itself. Another couple
hundred in wiring and spa breaker- and another couple hundred in test
kit & chemicals.

The electrical use might be $30 a month. I've been tempted to buy a
separate meter, but haven't yet. I keep it at 101degress 24/7.

I use it every day. My wife might join me once a week. Friends come
over use it once a month or so. We've had a pool for 20 yrs. From
Oct-May this hot tub has gotten more use than the pool did in any 24
month period..

Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

How about a forum where you can read till your eyes fall out-
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?

Check out both the Hot tub side- and the chemistry side.

I'm happy with mine- but I can certainly see the folks who recommend
'wet testing' any tub, regardless of brand or model.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.

I was amazed at how simple they are. They can leak. silicone cures
that. Pumps die. They are pretty cheap. Heaters die- they are even
cheaper. Electronic panels can fail- but they aren't all that much
on some of the simpler tubs. I just replaced a jet on my old
Thermospa-- $15. [the simpler ones are $5]

Covers fail & they can cost $4-500.

Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

My instinct was to think the ones encased in foam were the best
insulated. Thank goodness I didn't go that way- mine is insulated
with 2" of rigid polystyrene on the walls, bubble foil on the bottom,
and a decent 3" cover. Our power went out for 5 days last Dec & the
temp dropped to the teens, but the water never came close to
50degrees.

I *disagree* with olddog on the amount of work. I test mine every
couple of days now. [I did it daily for 4 months] It has never
gotten out of hand. I use Chlorine with every use, shock weekly &
I change my filter once a month [ I rotate through 3 filters], and
have changed the water once.

Less work than the pool- no back flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming &
no liner to puncture.

Jim

On Mon, 04 May 2009 15:39:15 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...
My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.
...

Paint a stock tank black and put it in the sun...

or for night-time use;
http://www.found****.com/poor-mans-hot-tub/
[add fire and beer]

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.

I just joined the hot-tub crowd last October. bought a $600 tub off
Craigslist- replaced a pump [$200] and a heating element [$30].

I did the wrestling & electrical work. You'll need a 50-60 amp 220v
GFCI box installed. [I agree with the olddog that you're nuts to try
110] I also added some insulation to my 6-8 yr old Thermospa.

I've got about $1000 invested in the tub itself. Another couple
hundred in wiring and spa breaker- and another couple hundred in test
kit & chemicals.

The electrical use might be $30 a month. I've been tempted to buy a
separate meter, but haven't yet. I keep it at 101degress 24/7.

I use it every day. My wife might join me once a week. Friends come
over use it once a month or so. We've had a pool for 20 yrs. From
Oct-May this hot tub has gotten more use than the pool did in any 24
month period..

Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

How about a forum where you can read till your eyes fall out-
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?

Check out both the Hot tub side- and the chemistry side.

I'm happy with mine- but I can certainly see the folks who recommend
'wet testing' any tub, regardless of brand or model.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.

I was amazed at how simple they are. They can leak. silicone cures
that. Pumps die. They are pretty cheap. Heaters die- they are even
cheaper. Electronic panels can fail- but they aren't all that much
on some of the simpler tubs. I just replaced a jet on my old
Thermospa-- $15. [the simpler ones are $5]

Covers fail & they can cost $4-500.

Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

My instinct was to think the ones encased in foam were the best
insulated. Thank goodness I didn't go that way- mine is insulated
with 2" of rigid polystyrene on the walls, bubble foil on the bottom,
and a decent 3" cover. Our power went out for 5 days last Dec & the
temp dropped to the teens, but the water never came close to
50degrees.

I *disagree* with olddog on the amount of work. I test mine every
couple of days now. [I did it daily for 4 months] It has never
gotten out of hand. I use Chlorine with every use, shock weekly &
I change my filter once a month [ I rotate through 3 filters], and
have changed the water once.

Less work than the pool- no back flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming &
no liner to puncture.

Jim

Hey Jim:

I used bromine and never shocked my old ht. That was probably the
difference. May have been bad advice. We use chlorine now and I agree it's
easier. We were probably told to use bromine to protect the ht surface.

I had a lot of trouble keeping the PH balanced in the old ht. It's much
easier for me to keep the pool and hot tub balanced. I throw about 2 quarts
of muriatic acid every 6 months or so in the pool and that's it. I had to
check the PH every time I used my old ht.

My pool/ht is very easy to clean. Between the sand filter and the Polaris it
pretty much takes care of it self. Back washing isn't anything at all.

But $30 a month is pretty good. I doubt it cost me that much but I heat mine
(nat. gas) as needed. I don't have a fancy ht cover. I just use a solar
cover. That by itself will keep the ht at 85+ degrees during the swimming
months. (Central Tx)

BTW: I almost never check my pool anymore for PH or chlorine. I keep (1) 3"
chlorine tab in the little duck and check the PH about every 6 months. I put
the free chlorine in 1 a week during swimming months. Once I got the hang of
it, it's as easy as pie.

So compair once every 2 days to "almost never" and I think you'll see what I
mean. :-)

od

PS: I do let the pool supply warehouse do checks on my water when I go buy
my tabs. There is usually no problem but they tell me how much acid to add.

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

How about a forum where you can read till your eyes fall out-
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?

Check out both the Hot tub side- and the chemistry side.

I'm happy with mine- but I can certainly see the folks who recommend
'wet testing' any tub, regardless of brand or model.

Thanks for posting the link.

There's a space on our patio where an old wood HT used to live, it got leaky
enough to make it not worth fixing anymore so it went away. The gas hookup
is still there however. A place we vacation every year has a HT somebody
else maintains so we love it, looking up at the stars, sipping wine, not a
care in the world. These increasingly old bones are thinking a (small) new
HT might not be a bad idea, hopefully the technology has improved a bit,
we're sort of looking into it. Again, thanks for the info source.

wrote in message
...
Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!


i have a bengal river spa that says its for 6 but 4 is more realistic. i've
had it for 8 years now and no problems out of warranty
it circulates 24/7 so water maintenance is not that bad. i also have it set
under a second floor deck so its pretty much covered all the time. this
manufactuer states it's the best insulated and my guess is it costs about
$10 maybe $15 a month on 220v.

--
C.D

On May 4, 4:26*pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

Little story:

"2nd happiest day of my life was the day I bought my boat. The happiest day
of my life was the day I sold my boat."

"Boat" can be replaced with "Hot Tub" or "Pool Table".

I would buy an indoor Jacuzzi Bath Tub.

Hot tubs are a hassle to keep the water clean and balanced. Heating the
water is another story.

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa
for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10
years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside.
In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water
about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the
dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much
stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had
a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more
functional and you can share it.





I had a hot tub and sold it after 1 year. It had several problems but I
learned that I don't want a stand alone hot tub. My "new" house (been here 6
years now) has a pool with a hot tub attached to the pool, and water
maintenance is a breeze. It has to do with the volume of water. For some
reason large volumes of water are much easier to keep clean and balanced.
When the tub gets "dirty", for lack of a better word, I can dump the water
into the pool and start fresh.

If you do get an electric HT make sure it's a 220 volt. A 110 volt will kill
you with electric bills.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that
way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for
power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the
power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the
same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is
that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high,
meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're
using it

2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as
long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside
all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using
it.



If there is anyway you can get natural gas that is
the way to go.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural
gas.




YMMV

od

wrote in message
...
On May 4, 4:26 pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

Little story:

"2nd happiest day of my life was the day I bought my boat. The happiest
day
of my life was the day I sold my boat."

"Boat" can be replaced with "Hot Tub" or "Pool Table".

I would buy an indoor Jacuzzi Bath Tub.

Hot tubs are a hassle to keep the water clean and balanced. Heating the
water is another story.

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa
for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10
years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside.
In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water
about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the
dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much
stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had
a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more
functional and you can share it.





I had a hot tub and sold it after 1 year. It had several problems but I
learned that I don't want a stand alone hot tub. My "new" house (been here
6
years now) has a pool with a hot tub attached to the pool, and water
maintenance is a breeze. It has to do with the volume of water. For some
reason large volumes of water are much easier to keep clean and balanced.
When the tub gets "dirty", for lack of a better word, I can dump the water
into the pool and start fresh.

If you do get an electric HT make sure it's a 220 volt. A 110 volt will
kill
you with electric bills.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that
way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for
power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the
power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the
same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is
that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high,
meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're
using it

2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as
long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside
all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using
it.



If there is anyway you can get natural gas that is
the way to go.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural
gas.

+++++++++++++++++

Really....hummmm

look up YMMV

but thanks

od

wrote in message
...
On May 4, 4:26 pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

Little story:

"2nd happiest day of my life was the day I bought my boat. The happiest
day
of my life was the day I sold my boat."

"Boat" can be replaced with "Hot Tub" or "Pool Table".

I would buy an indoor Jacuzzi Bath Tub.

Hot tubs are a hassle to keep the water clean and balanced. Heating the
water is another story.

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa
for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10
years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside.
In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water
about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the
dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much
stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had
a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more
functional and you can share it.





I had a hot tub and sold it after 1 year. It had several problems but I
learned that I don't want a stand alone hot tub. My "new" house (been here
6
years now) has a pool with a hot tub attached to the pool, and water
maintenance is a breeze. It has to do with the volume of water. For some
reason large volumes of water are much easier to keep clean and balanced.
When the tub gets "dirty", for lack of a better word, I can dump the water
into the pool and start fresh.

If you do get an electric HT make sure it's a 220 volt. A 110 volt will
kill
you with electric bills.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that
way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for
power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the
power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the
same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is
that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high,
meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're
using it

2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as
long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside
all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using
it.



If there is anyway you can get natural gas that is
the way to go.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural
gas.




YMMV

od

A little more info:

http://snorkel.com/hot-tub-info/choo...r-electric.php

One reason my 120 volt ht cost more to run was because I had to keep it hot
24/7.

It took about 48 hours to heat it up after filling. With gas I can heat my
ht up in about 2 or 3 hours on a warm day.

The only reason I'd use elec over gas would be if gas wasn't available. You
maybe looking at a narrow range of ht. I'm not sure what you are talking
about with jets and heater at the same time? My gas ht runs both and it's
small.

YMMV

od

Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Joining in late, but....

I bought a standalone 6-bod hot tub about five years ago, a Marquis brand
floor model (no affiliation). I've been pretty happy with it.

It's an all-electric 240V 50A unit. The tub is installed outdoors here in
northern Utah. Winter temps average 25-30 degrees, while we keep the tub at
102. Based on my excessively anal recordkeeping, my my average monthly
electric bill has increased by $1.57 since we installed the tub -- but who's
to say if that's all in the tub or something else in the house? It sure
isn't enough to worry about.

One of my tub's two pump motors failed just before the 3yr warranty expired.
I have been waiting for the other one to pop, but so far so good. AIUI,
these pump motors are industry standard units, can generally be rebuilt
and/or traded as a core, and anyone who's handy with a wrench should be able
to replace one (including moving the pump unit itself to the new motor)
without too much trouble.

A few months ago the tub developed a rather spectacular leak where the
plumbing attaches to the heater tube. The seals are a sort of soft rubbery
plastic, and had deteriorated to something that resembled plumber's putty.
They were only a couple bucks each and not hard to install, but I wonder
what caused them to rot like that.

Other than that, routine maintenance items, about $20 a month for chemicals,
filters, and mineral cartridges. I hit it with a little chlorine every time
we use it, shock it once a week or so, and change the water every three
months. That's about as easy as it gets, but well worth the investment IMO.

--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

wrote in message
news:49ff9885.702866172@localhost...
Hi,
I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my
backyard.
Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns a
Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to
buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance.
Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Joining in late, but....

I bought a standalone 6-bod hot tub about five years ago, a Marquis brand
floor model (no affiliation). I've been pretty happy with it.

It's an all-electric 240V 50A unit. The tub is installed outdoors here in
northern Utah. Winter temps average 25-30 degrees, while we keep the tub
at
102. Based on my excessively anal recordkeeping, my my average monthly
electric bill has increased by $1.57 since we installed the tub -- but
who's
to say if that's all in the tub or something else in the house? It sure
isn't enough to worry about.


Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind turbine?

One of my tub's two pump motors failed just before the 3yr warranty
expired.
I have been waiting for the other one to pop, but so far so good. AIUI,
these pump motors are industry standard units, can generally be rebuilt
and/or traded as a core, and anyone who's handy with a wrench should be
able
to replace one (including moving the pump unit itself to the new motor)
without too much trouble.

A few months ago the tub developed a rather spectacular leak where the
plumbing attaches to the heater tube. The seals are a sort of soft
rubbery
plastic, and had deteriorated to something that resembled plumber's putty.
They were only a couple bucks each and not hard to install, but I wonder
what caused them to rot like that.


Could it be the chlorine?

Other than that, routine maintenance items, about $20 a month for
chemicals,
filters, and mineral cartridges. I hit it with a little chlorine every
time
we use it, shock it once a week or so, and change the water every three
months. That's about as easy as it gets, but well worth the investment
IMO.



If I remember correctly we had to use bromine because of the liner. We were
assured that bromine was better too. Like I said, I may have gotten bad
advice because now that I'm using chlorine I agree; it doesn't get much
easier.

I'm sure there are lots of "success stories" with these new ht that are
available. All I know is the experience I had with a stand alone elec ht
turned into a nightmare. No doubt because it was a 120 volt and the
chemicals I was using. Which was the gist of my OP

Don't get me wrong, I love my "gas" ht. I can run it nightly and my gas bill
is always reasonable. Usually never over $30/mth. Sometimes as low as $12.
Now heating the pool is a different story.

I think if you do an internet search on gas vs elec ht's the data will back
me up.

od

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

Less work than the pool- no back flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming &
no liner to puncture.

For the record, an in-ground pool is very little work these days. There
is no back-flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming, and no liner to puncture.

-Use a 4-cartridge filter. You only have to clean it once a year.

-Use a high end self-contained pool cleaner (no hoses) rather than one
of the pressure or suction side cleaners that depend on the main pump
(or have their own pump). This makes a huge difference in keeping the
pool clean.

-The skimmer is built in.

-Concrete pools have no liner.

-Chlorination is via a tablet feeder or a chlorine generator.

The biggest hassle with a pool for me is that the chlorinator tablets
have so much cyanuric acid as a stabilizer that the cyanuric acid level
goes up to too high a level rendering the chlorine ineffective. Liquid
chlorine is more of a hassle, but it doesn't have this nasty side-effect.

I assume that you are indeed talking about a redwood, rather than
fiberglass, tub. If so, be aware that is critical to keep the water
chemistry within the specified range. This is particularly true with
chlorine. If the chlorine in a wood tub goes too high, it destroys the
cell structure of the wood in contact with the water. The wood surface
then gets a "fuzz" on it that is very difficult to remove.

You cannot do a chlorine shock treatment on a wood tub for this
reason.

I owned a redwood tub when I lived in San Diego in the early 1980s and
will never own one again.

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went up by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub is
easily lost in the noise.

Could it be the chlorine?

The heat of being attached to the stainless steel heater tube? I think it
odd that the manufacturer, who knows exactly what physical and chemical
attacks to expect (they do recommend chlorine) would install seals that are
prone to failure under those conditions.

If I remember correctly we had to use bromine because of the liner. We were
assured that bromine was better too. Like I said, I may have gotten bad
advice because now that I'm using chlorine I agree; it doesn't get much
easier.

I haven't used bromine myself. I understand that it's incompatible with the
silver/copper mineral cartridges. Oh, I forgot to mention that my tub also
has an UV ozone sterilizer, which failed once under warranty. Between the
UV and the minerals, some say that chlorine is actually unnecessary, just an
occasional non-chor shock. Frankly I *like* the chlorine, it smells like a
proper hot tub to me.

--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

wrote in message
news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...
On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub is
easily lost in the noise.


You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

If I remember correctly, when I bought my 120v ht, the spa store made claims
of low energy consumption that didn't hold true. But you know how memory is.
It's probably not quite as bad as I remember.

Could it be the chlorine?

The heat of being attached to the stainless steel heater tube? I think it
odd that the manufacturer, who knows exactly what physical and chemical
attacks to expect (they do recommend chlorine) would install seals that
are
prone to failure under those conditions.

If I remember correctly we had to use bromine because of the liner. We
were
assured that bromine was better too. Like I said, I may have gotten bad
advice because now that I'm using chlorine I agree; it doesn't get much
easier.

I haven't used bromine myself. I understand that it's incompatible with
the
silver/copper mineral cartridges. Oh, I forgot to mention that my tub
also
has an UV ozone sterilizer, which failed once under warranty. Between the
UV and the minerals, some say that chlorine is actually unnecessary, just
an
occasional non-chor shock. Frankly I *like* the chlorine, it smells like
a
proper hot tub to me.


The smell of chlorine doesn't bother me. The effect of it on the environment
can be pretty bad. I try to do my backwashes before shocks to minimize the
damage.

I think you said you spend $20/mth on maintenance. I probably spend about
$120/year on an expensive year, for the pool and the ht, but I have a sand
filter so I don't have to buy filters.

When I bought my 1st ht the UV ozone things were available but I heard later
they weren't that effective. Wouldn't they increase the elec bill too?

Glad you enjoy your tub. I use mine because of an old back injury. After a
hard day there isn't anything more refreshing. But if anyone asks me I still
say get a gas ht, and it's much better if it's attached to your pool.

od

On May 5, 1:28*pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? * They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. * * After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. * The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. *But I
don't believe it's all that high either. *I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. * But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. *You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. * That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. * While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. * If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. *With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

..

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.



If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.





If I bought a new tub I'd look into gas. They heat faster and they are
cheaper to operate. You may not be able to pick one up at Costco or HD but
that's because they are not as easy to install and gas isn't available
everywhere. IMHO it's worth the extra effort and that is speaking from
experience. But personally I wouldn't buy another stand alone ht. I'd go
with the indoor Jacuzzi tub. YMMV

In my OP I said don't get a 110v (well 120v) and opt for the 240v if you
have to go elec. I guess I don't see your point anymore. If you're arguing
elec is cheaper than gas, common sense says your wrong.

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote in message
...
On May 5, 1:28 pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on
$1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied
into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like
it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I
don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

..

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.



If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly
while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be
ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.



========================

I disagree and you're missing the point but you're the type that thinks
they're right regradless so use your ht and soak your head. :-)

od

On Tue, 5 May 2009 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On May 5, 1:28*pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? * They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. * * After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. * The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. *But I
don't believe it's all that high either. *I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. * But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. *You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. * That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. * While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. * If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. *With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

.

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.



If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.





If I bought a new tub I'd look into gas. They heat faster and they are
cheaper to operate. You may not be able to pick one up at Costco or HD but
that's because they are not as easy to install and gas isn't available
everywhere. IMHO it's worth the extra effort and that is speaking from
experience. But personally I wouldn't buy another stand alone ht. I'd go
with the indoor Jacuzzi tub. YMMV

In my OP I said don't get a 110v (well 120v) and opt for the 240v if you
have to go elec. I guess I don't see your point anymore. If you're arguing
elec is cheaper than gas, common sense says your wrong.

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Simple fact: lower average temp = lower energy usage.

On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:23:09 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

Power is pretty cheap here to be sure, for the past few months I've been
paying about 9 cents per kWh. It's varied between 7 and 8.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

Indeed. I don't know of a tracking meter suitable for 240V 50A, other than
the kind the utilities use. I'm not sure where to get one of those without
breaking the bank.

If I remember correctly, when I bought my 120v ht, the spa store made claims
of low energy consumption that didn't hold true. But you know how memory is.
It's probably not quite as bad as I remember.

I'd guess the salesman was playing his pitch on the idea that 120V is "low
power" and 240V is "high power" in the minds of lay consumers. You and I
know different.

Maybe you had a tub with poor insulation? When I was looking at tubs, I saw
a wide variance in insulation quality. One (cheaper, but no less expensive)
brand was completely without insulation, their pitch was that the empty
space under the tub would catch the waste heat from the motors to help keep
the water warm. If I'd bought that line I guess I'd be paying a lot more to
keep my tub hot all winter. I decided to pay a little more up front for a
well-insulated model.

When I bought my 1st ht the UV ozone things were available but I heard later
they weren't that effective. Wouldn't they increase the elec bill too?

Not by much. Spa ozonators run between 10 and 50 watts, I think mine is
30W. It's only on when the main pump runs, which is when it's heating or
doing a filtration cycle.

Glad you enjoy your tub. I use mine because of an old back injury. After a
hard day there isn't anything more refreshing. But if anyone asks me I still
say get a gas ht, and it's much better if it's attached to your pool.

I would also agree that gas is the way to go, if you have a choice.
Portable plug-and-play spas like mine are inevitably self-contained and all
electric. If you already had a gas heater, a place to house it, ready
access to gas, a certainty that you'll never move the tub, and a willingness
to hack into the tub's plumbing and electrics, then the conversion would be
worthwhile. I have none of those things, so electric it is.

--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

wrote in message
news:4a00d58d.784037665@localhost...
On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:23:09 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

Power is pretty cheap here to be sure, for the past few months I've been
paying about 9 cents per kWh. It's varied between 7 and 8.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

Indeed. I don't know of a tracking meter suitable for 240V 50A, other
than
the kind the utilities use. I'm not sure where to get one of those
without
breaking the bank.

If I remember correctly, when I bought my 120v ht, the spa store made
claims
of low energy consumption that didn't hold true. But you know how memory
is.
It's probably not quite as bad as I remember.

I'd guess the salesman was playing his pitch on the idea that 120V is "low
power" and 240V is "high power" in the minds of lay consumers. You and I
know different.

Maybe you had a tub with poor insulation? When I was looking at tubs, I
saw
a wide variance in insulation quality. One (cheaper, but no less
expensive)
brand was completely without insulation, their pitch was that the empty
space under the tub would catch the waste heat from the motors to help
keep
the water warm. If I'd bought that line I guess I'd be paying a lot more
to
keep my tub hot all winter. I decided to pay a little more up front for a
well-insulated model.

When I bought my 1st ht the UV ozone things were available but I heard
later
they weren't that effective. Wouldn't they increase the elec bill too?

Not by much. Spa ozonators run between 10 and 50 watts, I think mine is
30W. It's only on when the main pump runs, which is when it's heating or
doing a filtration cycle.

Glad you enjoy your tub. I use mine because of an old back injury. After a
hard day there isn't anything more refreshing. But if anyone asks me I
still
say get a gas ht, and it's much better if it's attached to your pool.

I would also agree that gas is the way to go, if you have a choice.
Portable plug-and-play spas like mine are inevitably self-contained and
all
electric. If you already had a gas heater, a place to house it, ready
access to gas, a certainty that you'll never move the tub, and a
willingness
to hack into the tub's plumbing and electrics, then the conversion would
be
worthwhile. I have none of those things, so electric it is.


I wouldn't convert one of those portable hot tubs. I'd have a gas one made
or buy one of those ready made gas ht. I was fortunate to find mine already
made :-)

But I wouldn't own a stand alone ht anyway. Too much trouble keeping a small
tub of water clean. (for everyone who says "mine's easy" you don't know what
easy is) The reason mine is easy to care for is it's attached to the pool's
Baker Hydro sand filter. If you've ever owned a sand filter you'd probably
never use any other type. Virtually maintenance free other than occasional
backwashing. I was lucky getting this setup.

od

On May 5, 5:50*pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 1:28 pm, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

....
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:

wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on
$1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied
into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like
it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I
don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

.

Total nonsense. * My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. * After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. *So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. * Big
deal. * After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. * * * A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. * And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. * *Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, *75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, *$1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. *And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.

If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly
while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be
ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. * The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F *vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. * *If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. *When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. * Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. * It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.

========================

I disagree and you're missing the point but you're the type that thinks
they're right regradless so use your ht and soak your head. :-)

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Disagree with what and missing what point? You claimed:

"Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive."


I showed you if you use a coffee maker twice a day, it's around $2 a
month. Using it for 5 mins for making coffee is like running a
100Watt light bulb for 45 mins. How could that possibly be one of
the larger energy users in a home or expensive relattive to a TV or a
light bulb?

So, what exactly is your point?

On May 6, 2:38*am, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

news:4a00d58d.784037665@localhost...





On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:23:09 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

Power is pretty cheap here to be sure, for the past few months I've been
paying about 9 cents per kWh. *It's varied between 7 and 8.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

Indeed. *I don't know of a tracking meter suitable for 240V 50A, other
than
the kind the utilities use. *I'm not sure where to get one of those
without
breaking the bank.

If I remember correctly, when I bought my 120v ht, the spa store made
claims
of low energy consumption that didn't hold true. But you know how memory
is.
It's probably not quite as bad as I remember.

I'd guess the salesman was playing his pitch on the idea that 120V is "low
power" and 240V is "high power" in the minds of lay consumers. *You and I
know different.

Maybe you had a tub with poor insulation? *When I was looking at tubs, I
saw
a wide variance in insulation quality. *One (cheaper, but no less
expensive)
brand was completely without insulation, their pitch was that the empty
space under the tub would catch the waste heat from the motors to help
keep
the water warm. *If I'd bought that line I guess I'd be paying a lot more
to
keep my tub hot all winter. *I decided to pay a little more up front for a
well-insulated model.

When I bought my 1st ht the UV ozone things were available but I heard
later
they weren't that effective. Wouldn't they increase the elec bill too?

Not by much. *Spa ozonators run between 10 and 50 watts, I think mine is
30W. *It's only on when the main pump runs, which is when it's heating or
doing a filtration cycle.

Glad you enjoy your tub. I use mine because of an old back injury. After a
hard day there isn't anything more refreshing. But if anyone asks me I
still
say get a gas ht, and it's much better if it's attached to your pool.

I would also agree that gas is the way to go, if you have a choice.
Portable plug-and-play spas like mine are inevitably self-contained and
all
electric. *If you already had a gas heater, a place to house it, ready
access to gas, a certainty that you'll never move the tub, and a
willingness
to hack into the tub's plumbing and electrics, then the conversion would
be
worthwhile. *I have none of those things, so electric it is.

I wouldn't convert one of those portable hot tubs. I'd have a gas one made
or buy one of those ready made gas ht. I was fortunate to find mine already
made :-)

But I wouldn't own a stand alone ht anyway. Too much trouble keeping a small
tub of water clean. (for everyone who says "mine's easy" you don't know what
easy is) The reason mine is easy to care for is it's attached to the pool's
Baker Hydro sand filter. If you've ever owned a sand filter you'd probably
never use any other type. Virtually maintenance free other than occasional
backwashing. I was lucky getting this setup.

Gee, like taking the paper cartridge filter out of my spa every couple
months and rinsing it with a hose when I change the water isn't easy?
Pool filters aren't exactly maintenance free either. The sand or
diatamacous ones have to be pressure monitored, then manually
backwashed, replenished, etc.

But then you think a coffee maker is one of the large users of energy
in a house and that 240V has some inherrent big energy savings
advantage compared to 120V too.

wrote in message
...
On May 5, 5:50 pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 1:28 pm, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

...
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:

wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on
$1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill
went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased
as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by
82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot
tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied
into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like
it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I
don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and
I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

.

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.

If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a
thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly
while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be
ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.

========================

I disagree and you're missing the point but you're the type that thinks
they're right regradless so use your ht and soak your head. :-)

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Disagree with what and missing what point? You claimed:

"Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive."


I showed you if you use a coffee maker twice a day, it's around $2 a
month. Using it for 5 mins for making coffee is like running a
100Watt light bulb for 45 mins. How could that possibly be one of
the larger energy users in a home or expensive relattive to a TV or a
light bulb?

So, what exactly is your point?


+++++++++++++++++++++++\

Your posts are borderline trolling. I'm going to block you.

Have a nice life!

od

wrote in message
...
On May 5, 5:50 pm, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 1:28 pm, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

...
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:

wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on
$1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill
went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased
as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by
82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot
tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied
into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like
it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I
don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and
I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

.

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.

If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a
thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly
while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be
ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.

========================

I disagree and you're missing the point but you're the type that thinks
they're right regradless so use your ht and soak your head. :-)

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Disagree with what and missing what point? You claimed:

"Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive."


I showed you if you use a coffee maker twice a day, it's around $2 a
month. Using it for 5 mins for making coffee is like running a
100Watt light bulb for 45 mins. How could that possibly be one of
the larger energy users in a home or expensive relattive to a TV or a
light bulb?

So, what exactly is your point?


+++++++++++++++++++++++\

Your posts are borderline trolling. I'm going to block you.

Have a nice life!

od

On May 6, 10:19*am, "olddog" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On May 5, 5:50 pm, "olddog" wrote:





wrote in message

...
On May 5, 1:28 pm, "olddog" wrote:

wrote in message

....
On May 5, 11:23 am, "olddog" wrote:

wrote in message

news:4a0046f8.747531644@localhost...

On Tue, 05 May 2009 03:23:33 GMT, in alt.home.repair, "olddog"
wrote:

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on
$1.57/mth
I've
got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind
turbine?

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were
wrong.
But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill
went
up
by
$5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased
as
well,
and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I
haven't
factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by
82
kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in
there,
including learning how to manage our overall household power
consumption.
But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot
tub
is
easily lost in the noise.

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied
into
our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like
it's
using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around
1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple
times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for
a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large
loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower,
cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I
don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major
swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for
whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep
mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using
it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a
question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being
able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That
is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not
support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low,
to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate
the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V
you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the
circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and
I
realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy
consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive.

.

Total nonsense. My typical coffee maker is rated at 900 watts.
That is when it's actually brewing coffee, which as I pointed out,
takes about 5 mins. After that, if you leave it on warm, it's
probably about 100 or 150WW. So, 5 mins while brewing at 900 watts
for 5 mins is like leaving a 100 watt bulb on for 45 mins. Big
deal. After that, if it's warming, it's like leaving a 100 watt, or
at most a couple 100 watt lights on. A typical big screen TV,
which are common today, can easily draw a couple hundred watts. And
TVs, like lights, are on for a long time compared to a coffee maker.
The big consumers of energy in a home are AC, furnace heater blower,
cooking, water heater.... and I could go way down the list before ever
getting to the little old coffee maker.

Here in NJ, I pay some of the highest rates for electric in the
country, around 17c Kwh. Let's say I made coffee 2X a day, and left
it on warming for an hour after that each time.

900W X 5 mins X60 = 4.5kwh, 75 cents

150W X 1hr X 60 = 9kwh, $1.5

$2.25 is maybe 1% of an electric bill. And that's assuming quite a
bit of use.

If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns
your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a
thermos

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly
while
the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be
ready.

This is still not as big a difference in energy as you believe. The
difference is only in how much heat the spa loses over time at say
100F vs how much it will lose letting it go down to a lower temp, say
80F some of the time. If you use it everday, the difference will be
so small, it won't matter. When you reset it back to 100 the next
day, the heater will run for almost as long as it would had it just
maintained it at 100 all along. Now, if you only use it once a week,
then lowering the temp will make a larger difference and could be
worthwhile. It's like setting your house thermostat down overnight,
it can save maybe 5% or so on your heating bill, but in the grand
scheme of things, it still isn't large.

========================

I disagree and you're missing the point but you're the type that thinks
they're right regradless so use your ht and soak your head. :-)

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Disagree with what and missing what point? * You claimed:

*"Coffee makers are one of the larger energy

consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's
expensive."

I showed you if you use a coffee maker twice a day, it's around $2 a
month. *Using it for 5 mins for making coffee is like running a
100Watt light bulb for 45 mins. * How could that possibly be one of
the larger energy users in a home or expensive relattive to a TV or a
light bulb?

So, what exactly is your point?

+++++++++++++++++++++++\

Your posts are borderline trolling. I'm going to block you.


In other words, rather than simply admit you were wrong, you call
those who are right trolls and block them. With that approach, no
wonder you don't know what you are talking about. That goes a long
way to explaining why you found it too difficult to maintain a spa and
think somehow power at 240V is cheap compated to power at 120V.





Have a nice life!

od- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -