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#1
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce |
#2
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message ... Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce I would add number 3: 3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either. Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order parts (which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right then, so I went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they stocked the worst quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be wasted on. I thought it was actually defective, but later found that it was just a very poor quality pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will FloTec products contaminate my garden I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they can get. |
#3
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 29, 3:58*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce I would never have expected the best price from HD. My experience has shown that by talking with "real whatever stores" you can typically get a better deal. Based on the specs for the windows I bought from a real window store, I paid what would have been "in-stock" HD prices for windows that would have been at least the second level of "special order" windows at HD or Lowes. You can typically get better lumber for the same or lower prices by going to a lumber yard. Plumbing supplies? I'll take the parts counter in the back of a Kitchen and Bath Design Center over the plumbing aisle at a home center any day of the week, except after 12 on Saturdays and all day Sunday. :-( The same goes for electrical supplies - use the parts counter at a lighting design store for the best prices, selection and expertise. |
#4
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Had customer call me about a leak at their washing machine hose bib. Had them go to HD to get 2 replacement angle valves because I was busy at another job. I removed the 2 old angle valve and tried to install the new one, no go. I looked at the tag on the valve and it all matched up. The only problem it was made in China. The threads for the copper compression are cut on USA made valves, molded on China built crap. Had him go to a "Real Hardware Store" and get the same one and it threaded right on. Talk about a waste of freakin time. When will you people get it??? You get what you pay for!!! You buy crap you get crap, not to mention wasting my time so I can charge you more. Or a major leak that would have been blamed on me! -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586 |
#5
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Zootal wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message ... Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce I would add number 3: 3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either. Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order parts (which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right then, so I went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they stocked the worst quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be wasted on. I thought it was actually defective, but later found that it was just a very poor quality pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will FloTec products contaminate my garden I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they can get. Not only do they stock crap, they stock mainly China Crap! -- "You can lead them to LINUX but you can't make them THINK" Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586 Website Address http://rentmyhusband.co.nr/ |
#6
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. |
#7
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site,company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. I would never have expected the best price from HD. The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our 3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle man. Perce |
#8
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 29, 5:52*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site,company name here *sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. I would never have expected the best price from HD. The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our 3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle man. Perce- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "...and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices." And perhaps they did, but that doesn't mean they're going to pass on their savings to you. It merely means more profit for them. They put their stores up on every corner, they drive out the majority of the neighborhood stores, and then set their prices wherever they want. There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that sell quality at reasonable prices. That allows the kings of the borgs to charge their lazy subjects higher prices for the same (or usually lower) quality. All that said, I'm not naive enough to think that my buying my windows from a contractor supply house or dedicated window store is going to have any impact on the borgs. It would take millions of people like you and me to put a dent in their profits and that's just not going to happen. They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. |
#9
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best merchandise, go to a good shop. |
#10
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site,company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. I would never have expected the best price from HD. The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our 3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle man. Perce But they only get what is available elsewhere and add their markup. I don't think they understand negotiations. I have tried negotiating with them and have come to understand that they are usually the highest prices for almost everything. I spent over 400,000 bucks this year for materials and I spent 345,000 of it at real stores because they would negotiate a better price on everything, if it wasn't already lower. Lowes got the rest because they were convenient. I won't shop at Home Depot. -- Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX |
#11
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best merchandise, go to a good shop. Hi, My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to be the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful) |
#12
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors.. |
#13
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:52:28 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote: The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our 3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle man. Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time about the "cutting out the middle man" thing. Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work for him or not? |
#14
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Ed Pawlowski wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best merchandise, go to a good shop. Hi, My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to be the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful) True, but cheap can be even more wasteful. Ideally, one should be informed as to what is available and how it suits your needs and the big box stores don't carry it all. |
#15
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Ed Pawlowski wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best merchandise, go to a good shop. Hi, My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to be the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful) True, but cheap can be even more wasteful. Ideally, one should be informed as to what is available and how it suits your needs and the big box stores don't carry it all. Hi, Agreed, Most of time I stick with prosumer grade. |
#16
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
benick wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors.. Hi, It all depends. There are times I go to local store, there are times I go to HD, there times I go on-line shopping. |
#17
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
mm wrote:
Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time about the "cutting out the middle man" thing. Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work for him or not? If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used. The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000 copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit." If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely different set of expenses. |
#18
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:36:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote: They put their stores up on every corner, they drive out the majority of the neighborhood stores, and then set their prices wherever they want. There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that sell quality at reasonable prices. That allows the kings of the borgs to charge their lazy subjects higher prices for the same (or usually lower) quality. All that said, I'm not naive enough to think that my buying my windows from a contractor supply house or dedicated window store is going to have any impact on the borgs. It would take millions of people like you and me to put a dent in their profits and that's just not going to happen. They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up. You're probably right in your second paragraph, but I am doing my part to encourage everyone around me to patronize local businesses. Recently a colleague was talking to me about replacing his kitchen floor and mentioned he'd gone to HD. I told him not to waste his time or money with HD and to go to a local flooring place I'd used. He eventually did just that and was very happy with the price and installation and told me that the guy who laid the floor said he thought he'd laid the original floor in the house, 20+ years earlier. I've already told my story of buying my Weber Genesis Silver B grill from a local merchant for the same price as HD was charging, but ALSO getting a partially full tank of propane and a jar of BBQ sauce. Now that's customer relations. Plus, I don't have any objection to the local hardware stores charging 18% restocking fee as this drastically cuts down the likelihood that I myself will walk out with a defective product or an item that's missing parts, as often happens with HD. In fact, I have such a good relationship wth my neighborhood hardware store that I can exchange items without this fee, again good customer relations. |
#19
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 29, 10:43*pm, "benick" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox).. I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and *it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody *wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials. But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. |
#20
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
There are no longer true vendors at HD or Lowes. About 6 years ago they told
all the manufacturers that sold to them that they wanted the 5% that was paid to the merchandising vendors. HD and Lowes hired their own people to do the job for 2%. I can guarantee the savings was not passed onto consumers. Kool Seal roof coatings was told to cut their price by $5 per 5 gallon bucket if they wanted to continue doing business with HD. HD then raised the retail price by $5 per bucket, increasing their profit per bucket by $10.00! The stories go on and on........ cm "HeyBub" wrote in message m... mm wrote: Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time about the "cutting out the middle man" thing. Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work for him or not? If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used. The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000 copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit." If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely different set of expenses. |
#21
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun display
at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple gun. An employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then took the gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see why it was jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop. Dumb Ass cm "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote: "Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials. But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. |
#22
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On 12/29/08 04:50 pm evodawg wrote:
snip Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. I would add number 3: 3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either. Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order parts (which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right then, so I went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they stocked the worst quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be wasted on. I thought it was actually defective, but later found that it was just a very poor quality pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will FloTec products contaminate my garden I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they can get. Not only do they stock crap, they stock mainly China Crap! But sometimes it's the same "China crap" (with a famous US brand name on it) as the "real whatever store" across town is selling for twice the price. Perce |
#23
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 8:04*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
mm wrote: Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time about the "cutting out the middle man" thing. Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? *Or something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work for him or not? If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used. The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000 copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit." If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely different set of expenses. I'm not sure if I'm following your logic correctly - not that I'm disagreeing it - but I'm not sure that it fits the borg situation. Normal Use of Middleman Mechanism: 1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships them to MRW Inc. (MiddleMan Roofing Wholesalers) 2 - MRW ships 1000 bundles to each of 500 Home Depot locations Alternative Use of Middleman Mechanism: 1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships them to MRW Inc. (MiddleMan Roofing Wholesalers) 2 - MRW ships an average of 50,000 bundles to each of 10 Home Depot Regional warehouses 3 - Each Home Depot warehouse ships an average of 1000 bundles to each of 50 Home Depot locations Elimination of Middleman Mechanism: 1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships them to 1 national Home Depot warehouse 2 - That warehouse ships an average of 50,000 bundles to each of 10 Home Depot Regional warehouses 3 - Each Home Depot regional warehouse ships an average of 1000 bundles to each of 50 Home Depot locations In other words, Home Depot is acting as it's own middleman. With economies of scale, this can be more cost effective than using MRW Inc. It even gives Home Depot the opportunity to be the middleman for other stores. I'm not saying they are doing this, but the opportunity exists. It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.) plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus* paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller school districts in our area to provide transportation services for them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ every time a one-off transportation need arises. Similiarly, Home Depot can switch suppliers or product lines without having to go through MRW. They can fire ACME or increase their shipments or whatever much more efficiently without MRW in the middle. |
#24
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"cm" wrote in message ... This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun display at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple gun. An employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then took the gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see why it was jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop. Dumb Ass cm "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote: "Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials. But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. Yes I do expect mom and pop to HIRE help and be open more than 7 to 5 M-F and 8-12 on Sat. if they want my money. I like to work 7-3:30 M-F but some drywall jobs require that I work late and some weekends. Should I require my customer to accomodate my personal life? Perhaps my customer should just close down his business so I can work when I want instead of doing it and making the mess the evening or on the weekend and having it cleaned up and ready for him to open in the AM ? I wouldn't be in business long if I did that and if mom and pop don't change they won't be either...The mom and pops hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their stores around here , not contractors as you implied... |
#25
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 29, 8:36*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that sell quality at reasonable prices. Bull$hit. There are plenty of us who will drive the extra mile, except when we get there, they're only open from 8AM to 5PM Monday through Friday. I happen to work Monday through Friday from 7AM to around 6PM or so... Now I have to take a vacation day just to go to the mom & pop hardware for a 2x4 or a piece of wire? Oh they're open on Saturdays too... from 9AM til noon. Except when I get there I get snarled at by the angry old man that runs the place, or I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle, or I get told how stupid I am, or I buck the crowd of people who also work on weekdays. Home Depot and Lowes are open from 7AM until 9PM EVERY DAY. I can get in, get what I need, and get out without being snarled at, berated, trampled, or ignored. |
#26
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 8:29*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to. There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being open from 10AM to 7PM? What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD and Lowes TRY to help. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty looks and aggrivated sneers. |
#27
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
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#28
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 10:37*am, "benick" wrote:
"cm" wrote in message ... This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun display at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple gun. An employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then took the gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see why it was jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop. Dumb Ass cm "DerbyDad03" wrote in message .... On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote: "Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Percival P. Cassidy wrote: Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway." Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price (including installation) for what is in all material respects the same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a power drill. So two conclusions: 1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. 2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price. Perce Hi, Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always. When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials. But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. They are refusing to change with the times and are being left behind There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. Yes I do expect mom and pop to HIRE help and be open more than 7 to 5 M-F and 8-12 on Sat. if they want my money. I like to work 7-3:30 M-F but some drywall jobs require that I work late and some weekends. Should I require my customer to accomodate my personal life? Perhaps my customer should just close down his business so I can work when I want instead of doing it and making the mess the evening or on the weekend and having it cleaned up and ready for him to open in the AM ? *I wouldn't be in business long if I did that and if mom and pop don't change they won't be either...The mom and pops hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their stores around here , not contractors as you implied...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "The mom and pops hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their stores around here, not contractors as you implied" Hey, don't throw that back at me. It was you who said "I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help" The contractors I referred to are those that also *shop* at the "real" stores and who often offer advice when they overhear a question - or who I might ask directly. If they're laughing at me, they're doing behind my back, but I don't care 'cuz I already have my answer. You're also tired of being laughed at by the "yard help". I guess they would be "the same minimum wage idiots" that the borgs hire. So I guess that means they the borg staff is laughing at you also. |
#29
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
DerbyDad03 wrote:
It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.) plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus* paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller school districts in our area to provide transportation services for them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ every time a one-off transportation need arises. Sounds good, but you're doomed. In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both. Have you considered: 1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply. Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system. 2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans? You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large. 3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck, the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance! There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes, negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles, let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc., necessary to do all these things. In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense. What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs. I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster. If I were the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from the Bible -- because of the old refrain: I don't own this railroad, I don't ring the bell, But let the train jump the tracks, And see who catches hell! |
#30
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 11:53*am, willshak wrote:
on 12/30/2008 11:23 AM (ET) wrote the following: What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free. Really? Do they get their living expenses and profit from welfare or something? No wonder they are going out of business. Mom and Pop own the Mom and Pop business, Einstein. They don't draw a salary or pay themselves hourly wages. Profit from the store pays their living expenses. Because they don't draw a salary or pay themselves hourly wages, it doesn't cost them a bit more to "staff" the store until 7PM as it does to "staff" it only until 5PM. The local Mom & Pop appliance store doesn't seem to have a problem being open until 8:30PM on weeknights or until 6PM on Saturdays... I needed a new clothes dryer because the 25-year-old one in my house blew up Sunday night. It was great walking in there at 8PM, picking out a dryer, and supporting a local business. The sales staff is a little "old school" and dry on personality, but they didn't look down their noses at me or give me crap for showing up so close to closing time or call me stupid for choosing the wrong dryer. It's a rare case of a local business doing the right things to stay competitive, and it's working for them. |
#31
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
HeyBub wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.) plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus* paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller school districts in our area to provide transportation services for them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ every time a one-off transportation need arises. Sounds good, but you're doomed. In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both. Have you considered: 1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply. Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system. 2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans? You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large. 3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck, the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance! There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes, negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles, let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc., necessary to do all these things. In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense. And hopefully by the time the person gets their MBA and gets a real job they will realize there are lots of profitable companies that know when it makes sense to not do that. What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs. I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster. If I were the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from the Bible -- because of the old refrain: I don't own this railroad, I don't ring the bell, But let the train jump the tracks, And see who catches hell! |
#32
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 11:23*am, wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:29*am, DerbyDad03 wrote: But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to. There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being open from 10AM to 7PM? What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD and Lowes TRY to help. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty looks and aggrivated sneers. Wow! Based on this post and your earlier one, you must have some pretty crappy "mom and pop" stores in your area. I wouldn't shop there either if they treated me like you make it sound. Lucky for me, and many others in my area, we get treated with respect and we get help from knowledgeable staff. That must be why these stores are still in business, even with their limited hours. That must be why the same store names keep coming up when people ask "Where do you get your plumbing/electrical/whatever supplies?" Here's a perfect example: I just ordered a part from a local appliance parts store for my washer. I'll keep going back to them every time because of the way I, a DIY homeowner, not an appliance repair business, get treated. A few weeks ago I troubleshot my dryer and stopped in to order the part I thought I needed. The woman behind the counter asked me (nicely) why I thought it was that part. When I described the symptoms, she suggested a different - and cheaper - part which was more likely the cause. Turns out she was right. I guess in your part of town I would have been laughed at, sneered at, and probably sold the wrong part so I would have to go back and buy more. Of course, I had to pick the part up before 5 on a weekday. BTW – this is the same store that suggested I buy a sheet of Microwave waveguide cover material instead of the single piece cover sold by part number for my specific oven. That has saved me both time and money. When I went to real window store to buy windows, the installation process was explained to me in detail, with no laughter or sneers. The guy even suggested that I install the first window during his work hours so I could call him if I had any questions. "Once you do one, you'll sail through the rest." Guess who I'm going back to when I replace my front door in the spring? Consider this: Maybe what you want to do *is* stupid, or maybe you're just too sensitive. Why would anyone give you dirty looks and aggravated sneers when you are in their place of business to spend money? Where I live, they offer suggestions meant to help so that you'll come back and spend more money with them. I don’t live my life thinking that I know all the answers and I don’t mind asking for help when I need it. Regardless of whether it's you or your location that causes you to get the laughs and sneers, if you're ever up in my neck of the woods I'll take you to some locally owned businesses where they treat their customers with respect and are willing to help you complete your projects - because they truly care if you come back, not like the borgs where volume is all that matters. Gotta go now - I need to call the parts counter at a mom and pop lighting store to see if they carry a twin-breaker to fit my panel. I seriously doubt that they'll laugh at me. |
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
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#34
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
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#35
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 12:14*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.) plus they make a profit. *Starting next year, our school district will puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus* paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller school districts in our area to provide transportation services for them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ every time a one-off transportation need arises. Sounds good, but you're doomed. In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. I'm glad you said in *almost* every case. Read on.... In almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both. Have you considered: 1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply. Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system. We're way off topic here, but the current drivers are not illegal immigrants - most are already teamsters and the salaries were figured into the cost projections. 2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans? You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large. We don't get floods up in western NY g 3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck, the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance! You can't count on the "private enterprise drivers" to be any better. Earlier this year, on the very first day of school, a bus broke down. The driver pulled over onto the shoulder of busy highway - the area between the entrance ramp and the right lane - and called his dispatcher. The company sent a replacement bus who pulled up behind the other bus on the shoulder of the highway, and with 2 drivers and 1 other adult, began walking the 50 or so 1st and 2nd graders from bus to bus. Cars were going by on both sides of the buses as the line of kids walked down the shoulder. The school was never notified and they had no police supervision. No one knew about it until some kids mentioned "walking on the highway" to their parents that night. There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes, negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles, let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc., necessary to do all these things. I wonder what goes on in the district's maintenance building next to where the district's trucks and grounds maintenance equipment is stored. That heavy-duty tow truck and hydraulic lift in the big garage must be for something other than our snow plows, tractors, graders and other heavy equipment. Besides, why do you assume these items are examples of "unanticipated expenses"? Do you think that these items were simply ignored during the planning process? Do you really expect that the district is going to buy a fleet of buses and then say "Oh sh*t! They need gas? How come nobody mentioned that before? Here, use my Mobil SpeedPass, but just this once. Please give them some credit. In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense. What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs. No argument, but the plan is modeled after another school district who did the same thing a while back. (I heard a rep from that school district give a presentation about the sucess of the program at a planning meeting . I don't recall the out-of-state district's name, but I could get it if a citation is needed). The main problem here is that the district is currently paying a higher and higher "fixed cost" for lower and lower service. There have been other safety related issues than the example I gave above as well as breakdowns, delays and personnel issues. I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster. I hope you're wrong, but I respect your point of view. I'll let you know in a few years. If I were the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from the Bible -- because of the old refrain: I don't own this railroad, I don't ring the bell, But let the train jump the tracks, And see who catches hell!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#36
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On Dec 30, 10:59*am, wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:36*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote: There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that sell quality at reasonable prices. Bull$hit. There are plenty of us who will drive the extra mile, except when we get there, they're only open from 8AM to 5PM Monday through Friday. I happen to work Monday through Friday from 7AM to around 6PM or so... Now I have to take a vacation day just to go to the mom & pop hardware for a 2x4 or a piece of wire? Oh they're open on Saturdays too... from 9AM til noon. Except when I get there I get snarled at by the angry old man that runs the place, or I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle, or I get told how stupid I am, or I buck the crowd of people who also work on weekdays. Home Depot and Lowes are open from 7AM until 9PM EVERY DAY. I can get in, get what I need, and get out without being snarled at, berated, trampled, or ignored. Please, if you are going to take part in a discussion, at least use some reasonable examples. "I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle" "I get told how stupid I am" I get "...snarled at, berated, trampled, or ignored." First off, I don't know you, but I doubt you ever stood at an empty counter for an hour and a half while some old lady did a crossword puzzle. Second, I doubt anyone told you how "stupid" you were, berated you or trampled you. Getting snarled at or ignored may have happened, but that can certainly happened at the borgs also - especially the ignored part. But wait - If you really did stand at an empty counter for and hour and half while some old lady did a crossword puzzle, then perhaps you deserved whatever you got. I don't know, I wasn't there, I'm just saying... |
#37
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
On 12/30/08 12:14 pm HeyBub wrote:
It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.) plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus* paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller school districts in our area to provide transportation services for them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ every time a one-off transportation need arises. Sounds good, but you're doomed. In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both. For decades most state governments in Australia -- no matter what their political "complexion" -- ran enterprises that competed with private enterprises: e.g., banks and insurance companies. The govt. enterprises, not needing to make a profit, kept the private enterprises from being too greedy; the private enterprises, possibly having a less burdensome administrative structure, kept the govt. enterprises from being too inefficient. In one particular area, motor vehicle insurance in Queensland, the private companies gave up writing policies for the mandatory death or bodily injury insurance because they could not compete with the State Government Insurance Office's rates. Again, when it came to construction projects, govt. departments figured out what it would cost them to employ people directly to do the job, then called for bids with the provision that no bid might be accepted at all, if they figured that they could do it for less themselves than the lowest-bidding private contractor. In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense. What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs. So you would be in favor of buying extended warranties/service contracts/"performance guarantees" for cars and household appliances? Perce |
#38
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... On Dec 30, 11:23 am, wrote: On Dec 30, 8:29 am, DerbyDad03 wrote: But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and weekends to stay open for you. If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to. There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits and other costs of doing business. There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being open from 10AM to 7PM? What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors and yard help. That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the places you shop. The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself. Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need. Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or - worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it. Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD and Lowes TRY to help. It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid, just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for advice related to my line of work. I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty looks and aggrivated sneers. Wow! Based on this post and your earlier one, you must have some pretty crappy "mom and pop" stores in your area. I wouldn't shop there either if they treated me like you make it sound. Lucky for me, and many others in my area, we get treated with respect and we get help from knowledgeable staff. That must be why these stores are still in business, even with their limited hours. That must be why the same store names keep coming up when people ask "Where do you get your plumbing/electrical/whatever supplies?" Here's a perfect example: I just ordered a part from a local appliance parts store for my washer. I'll keep going back to them every time because of the way I, a DIY homeowner, not an appliance repair business, get treated. A few weeks ago I troubleshot my dryer and stopped in to order the part I thought I needed. The woman behind the counter asked me (nicely) why I thought it was that part. When I described the symptoms, she suggested a different - and cheaper - part which was more likely the cause. Turns out she was right. I guess in your part of town I would have been laughed at, sneered at, and probably sold the wrong part so I would have to go back and buy more. Of course, I had to pick the part up before 5 on a weekday. BTW – this is the same store that suggested I buy a sheet of Microwave waveguide cover material instead of the single piece cover sold by part number for my specific oven. That has saved me both time and money. When I went to real window store to buy windows, the installation process was explained to me in detail, with no laughter or sneers. The guy even suggested that I install the first window during his work hours so I could call him if I had any questions. "Once you do one, you'll sail through the rest." Guess who I'm going back to when I replace my front door in the spring? Consider this: Maybe what you want to do *is* stupid, or maybe you're just too sensitive. Why would anyone give you dirty looks and aggravated sneers when you are in their place of business to spend money? Where I live, they offer suggestions meant to help so that you'll come back and spend more money with them. I don’t live my life thinking that I know all the answers and I don’t mind asking for help when I need it. Regardless of whether it's you or your location that causes you to get the laughs and sneers, if you're ever up in my neck of the woods I'll take you to some locally owned businesses where they treat their customers with respect and are willing to help you complete your projects - because they truly care if you come back, not like the borgs where volume is all that matters. Gotta go now - I need to call the parts counter at a mom and pop lighting store to see if they carry a twin-breaker to fit my panel. I seriously doubt that they'll laugh at me. Regardless of all the bull**** spread here if they ain't open they ain't gonna sell anything....It really is as simple as that.... |
#39
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense. What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs. So you would be in favor of buying extended warranties/service contracts/"performance guarantees" for cars and household appliances? Do you have insurance on your home? If so, you're trading a fixed cost for an unknown, variable cost. I once bought a mouse pad at Circuit City for ninety-nine cents. The clerk asked me if I wanted an extended warranty. I said: "Let me think about it. You do the same." We stared at each other for about ten seconds and, without another word being spoken, he completed the sale. |
#40
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Home Depot vs. "Real whatever store"
"benick" wrote:
One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas.. We have a local store, an ACE dealer, with a great selection of various items. The problem is that they are very insistent upon customer service, to the point where they compete to put their stickers (with their names on them) on any item you purchase. Instead of peacefully fondling various items of interest, you are instead constantly getting your thoughts interrupted by 20-something kids insisting that you need "help". To me, when I want help, I look for someone and ask for it. Otherwise, I like to be left alone. I mostly shop at HD for this very reason, unless I am specifically getting something the other store carries, and then I leave promptly. Jon |
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