Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you buy
from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because they
don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with a
power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce

I would add number 3:

3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either.

Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order parts
(which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right then, so I
went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they stocked the worst
quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be wasted on. I thought it
was actually defective, but later found that it was just a very poor quality
pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will FloTec products contaminate my
garden

I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going
strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without
first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they
can get.

On Dec 29, 3:58*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce

I would never have expected the best price from HD.

My experience has shown that by talking with "real whatever stores"
you can typically get a better deal. Based on the specs for the
windows I bought from a real window store, I paid what would have been
"in-stock" HD prices for windows that would have been at least the
second level of "special order" windows at HD or Lowes.

You can typically get better lumber for the same or lower prices by
going to a lumber yard.

Plumbing supplies? I'll take the parts counter in the back of a
Kitchen and Bath Design Center over the plumbing aisle at a home
center any day of the week, except after 12 on Saturdays and all day
Sunday. :-(

The same goes for electrical supplies - use the parts counter at a
lighting design store for the best prices, selection and expertise.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce

Had customer call me about a leak at their washing machine hose bib. Had
them go to HD to get 2 replacement angle valves because I was busy at
another job. I removed the 2 old angle valve and tried to install the new
one, no go. I looked at the tag on the valve and it all matched up. The
only problem it was made in China. The threads for the copper compression
are cut on USA made valves, molded on China built crap. Had him go to
a "Real Hardware Store" and get the same one and it threaded right on. Talk
about a waste of freakin time. When will you people get it??? You get what
you pay for!!! You buy crap you get crap, not to mention wasting my time so
I can charge you more. Or a major leak that would have been blamed on me!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

Zootal wrote:


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce

I would add number 3:

3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either.

Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order
parts (which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right
then, so I went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they
stocked the worst quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be
wasted on. I thought it was actually defective, but later found that it
was just a very poor quality pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will
FloTec products contaminate my garden

I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going
strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without
first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they
can get.
Not only do they stock crap, they stock mainly China Crap!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.co.nr/

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote:

Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site,company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

I would never have expected the best price from HD.

The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that
HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our
3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better
prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than
having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle
man.

Perce

On Dec 29, 5:52*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote:





Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site,company name here *sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.
I would never have expected the best price from HD.

The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that
HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our
3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better
prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than
having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle
man.

Perce- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"...and would therefore be able to negotiate better prices."

And perhaps they did, but that doesn't mean they're going to pass on
their savings to you. It merely means more profit for them.

They put their stores up on every corner, they drive out the majority
of the neighborhood stores, and then set their prices wherever they
want. There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile
and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that
sell quality at reasonable prices. That allows the kings of the borgs
to charge their lazy subjects higher prices for the same (or usually
lower) quality.

All that said, I'm not naive enough to think that my buying my windows
from a contractor supply house or dedicated window store is going to
have any impact on the borgs. It would take millions of people like
you and me to put a dent in their profits and that's just not going to
happen. They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass
up.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up.

Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think
mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores
sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a
contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best
merchandise, go to a good shop.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 12/29/08 04:22 pm DerbyDad03 wrote:

Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site,company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as well
-- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

I would never have expected the best price from HD.

The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that
HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our
3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better
prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than
having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle
man.

Perce


But they only get what is available elsewhere and add their markup.
I don't think they understand negotiations. I have tried
negotiating with them and have come to understand that they are
usually the highest prices for almost everything. I spent over
400,000 bucks this year for materials and I spent 345,000 of it at
real stores because they would negotiate a better price on
everything, if it wasn't already lower.

Lowes got the rest because they were convenient. I won't shop at
Home Depot.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up.

Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think
mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box stores
sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD did on a
contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands of the best
merchandise, go to a good shop.


Hi,
My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to
be the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful)

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY
for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they
are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox).
I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are
refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is
entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and
look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in
various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what
to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also
carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti
tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:52:28 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:


The reason I thought that I *might* get a better price from HD is that
HD -- the whole chain -- must buy a lot more stuff from Clopay than our
3-store local "chain" and would therefore be able to negotiate better
prices. And *perhaps* HD would deal with Clopay directly rather than
having to go through a regional distributor -- IOW, cutting out a middle
man.

Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or
home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time
about the "cutting out the middle man" thing.

Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he
charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or
something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work
for him or not?

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up.

Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think
mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box
stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD
did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands
of the best merchandise, go to a good shop.
Hi,
My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to be
the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful)

True, but cheap can be even more wasteful. Ideally, one should be informed
as to what is available and how it suits your needs and the big box stores
don't carry it all.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass up.
Key word here is "average" There are a lot of average people that think
mediocre stuff at a perceived low price is a good deal. The big box
stores sell "average" stuff, not the best. For every god story of how HD
did on a contracted job, I hear 10 bad ones. If you want the best brands
of the best merchandise, go to a good shop.
Hi,
My key word is best value for the buck. Most often it does not have to be
the best for typicalaverage use. (over kill can be wasteful)

True, but cheap can be even more wasteful. Ideally, one should be informed
as to what is available and how it suits your needs and the big box stores
don't carry it all.


Hi,
Agreed, Most of time I stick with prosumer grade.

benick wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price
including installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why
Home Depot? You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to
the Clopay Web site, company name here sells their doors too." HD
guy says, "If you buy from us, they're the people that do our
installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the
same door but with a different model number -- and they don't use
(because they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be
adjusted with a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass
lowest-bidder installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is
doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and
SUNDAY for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which
is why they are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional
semi-bigbox). I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project
materials..They are refusing to change with the times and are being left
behind..The blame is entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD
you can walk around and look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and
pops the stuff is all out in various buildings and it must be gotten
for you , if you know exactly what to ask for. I'm tired of feeling
stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by contractors
and yard help...The mom and pops could also carry cheaper tools...Not
everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti tablesaw when a 100
dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..
Hi,
It all depends. There are times I go to local store, there are times I
go to HD, there times I go on-line shopping.

mm wrote:

Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or
home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time
about the "cutting out the middle man" thing.

Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he
charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or
something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work
for him or not?

If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used.

The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user
because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000
copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit."

If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book
wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher
sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely
different set of expenses.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:36:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

They put their stores up on every corner, they drive out the majority
of the neighborhood stores, and then set their prices wherever they
want. There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile
and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that
sell quality at reasonable prices. That allows the kings of the borgs
to charge their lazy subjects higher prices for the same (or usually
lower) quality.

All that said, I'm not naive enough to think that my buying my windows
from a contractor supply house or dedicated window store is going to
have any impact on the borgs. It would take millions of people like
you and me to put a dent in their profits and that's just not going to
happen. They are just too convenient for the average consumer to pass
up.

You're probably right in your second paragraph, but I am doing my part
to encourage everyone around me to patronize local businesses.
Recently a colleague was talking to me about replacing his kitchen
floor and mentioned he'd gone to HD. I told him not to waste his time
or money with HD and to go to a local flooring place I'd used. He
eventually did just that and was very happy with the price and
installation and told me that the guy who laid the floor said he
thought he'd laid the original floor in the house, 20+ years earlier.
I've already told my story of buying my Weber Genesis Silver B grill
from a local merchant for the same price as HD was charging, but ALSO
getting a partially full tank of propane and a jar of BBQ sauce. Now
that's customer relations.

Plus, I don't have any objection to the local hardware stores charging
18% restocking fee as this drastically cuts down the likelihood that I
myself will walk out with a defective product or an item that's
missing parts, as often happens with HD. In fact, I have such a good
relationship wth my neighborhood hardware store that I can exchange
items without this fee, again good customer relations.

On Dec 29, 10:43*pm, "benick" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...





Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY
for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why they
are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox)..
I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are
refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is
entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and
look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out in
various buildings and *it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what
to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could also
carry cheaper tools...Not everybody *wants or can afford a 600 dollar Makiti
tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials.

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

They are refusing to change with the times and are being left
behind

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

There are no longer true vendors at HD or Lowes. About 6 years ago they told
all the manufacturers that sold to them that they wanted the 5% that was
paid to the merchandising vendors. HD and Lowes hired their own people to
do the job for 2%. I can guarantee the savings was not passed onto
consumers.

Kool Seal roof coatings was told to cut their price by $5 per 5 gallon
bucket if they wanted to continue doing business with HD. HD then raised the
retail price by $5 per bucket, increasing their profit per bucket by $10.00!

The stories go on and on........

cm


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
mm wrote:

Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or
home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time
about the "cutting out the middle man" thing.

Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he
charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? Or
something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work
for him or not?

If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used.

The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user
because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000
copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit."

If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book
wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher
sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely
different set of expenses.

This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun display
at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple gun. An
employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then took the
gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see why it was
jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop. Dumb Ass

cm


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...





Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted
with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass
lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and SUNDAY
for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why
they
are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional semi-bigbox).
I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are
refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is
entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around
and
look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out
in
various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly what
to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could
also
carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar
Makiti
tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials.

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

They are refusing to change with the times and are being left
behind

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

On 12/29/08 04:50 pm evodawg wrote:

snip

Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

I would add number 3:

3. Bying from HD doesn't mean you get the best quality hardware either.

Case in point: My well pump went out, and the pump store had to order
parts (which eventually took like 6 weeks to get). I needed water right
then, so I went to HD and bought a pump. Little did I know that they
stocked the worst quality (and cheapest) crap pumps that money can be
wasted on. I thought it was actually defective, but later found that it
was just a very poor quality pump. It was a FloTec, and never again will
FloTec products contaminate my garden

I went to Mom and Pop hardware and bought a Star pump, and it's been going
strong every since. Moral of the story - don't buy stuff from HD without
first doing a bit of homework. Sometime they stock the cheapest crap they
can get.

Not only do they stock crap, they stock mainly China Crap!

But sometimes it's the same "China crap" (with a famous US brand name on
it) as the "real whatever store" across town is selling for twice the
price.

Perce

On Dec 30, 8:04*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
mm wrote:

Not about garage doors or doors or Home Depot or really big chains or
home improvement stuff, but in general, I've wondered for a long time
about the "cutting out the middle man" thing.

Doesn't this sometimes mean more work for the vendor, and so he
charges middleman prices instead of true wholesale prices? *Or
something in between the two, and whether it really makes more work
for him or not?

If the "middleman" was not an efficient mechanism, it wouldn't be used.

The vendor probably will not charge "middleman" prices to an end user
because his costs are not the same. Imagine a publisher that sells 5,000
copies of a new book, "Collecting Locomotives for Fun & Profit."

If the publisher puts all 5,000 copies on pallets and ships them to a book
wholesaler, the publisher has one set of costs. If, however, the publisher
sells five copies each to a thousand bookstores, he's got an entirely
different set of expenses.

I'm not sure if I'm following your logic correctly - not that I'm
disagreeing it - but I'm not sure that it fits the borg situation.

Normal Use of Middleman Mechanism:

1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships
them to MRW Inc. (MiddleMan Roofing Wholesalers)
2 - MRW ships 1000 bundles to each of 500 Home Depot locations

Alternative Use of Middleman Mechanism:

1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships
them to MRW Inc. (MiddleMan Roofing Wholesalers)
2 - MRW ships an average of 50,000 bundles to each of 10 Home Depot
Regional warehouses
3 - Each Home Depot warehouse ships an average of 1000 bundles to each
of 50 Home Depot locations

Elimination of Middleman Mechanism:

1 - ACME Roofing puts 500,000 bundles of shingles on pallets and ships
them to 1 national Home Depot warehouse
2 - That warehouse ships an average of 50,000 bundles to each of 10
Home Depot Regional warehouses
3 - Each Home Depot regional warehouse ships an average of 1000
bundles to each of 50 Home Depot locations

In other words, Home Depot is acting as it's own middleman. With
economies of scale, this can be more cost effective than using MRW
Inc. It even gives Home Depot the opportunity to be the middleman for
other stores. I'm not saying they are doing this, but the opportunity
exists.

It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for
transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ
Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY
to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.)
plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will
puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation
services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus*
paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the
profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller
school districts in our area to provide transportation services for
them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying
their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well
as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ
every time a one-off transportation need arises.

Similiarly, Home Depot can switch suppliers or product lines without
having to go through MRW. They can fire ACME or increase their
shipments or whatever much more efficiently without MRW in the middle.

"cm" wrote in message
...
This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun
display at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple
gun. An employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then
took the gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see
why it was jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop.
Dumb Ass

cm


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...





Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay
Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted
with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass
lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and
SUNDAY
for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why
they
are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional
semi-bigbox).
I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are
refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is
entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around
and
look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out
in
various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly
what
to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could
also
carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar
Makiti
tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials.

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

They are refusing to change with the times and are being left
behind

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.


Yes I do expect mom and pop to HIRE help and be open more than 7 to 5 M-F
and 8-12 on Sat. if they want my money. I like to work 7-3:30 M-F but some
drywall jobs require that I work late and some weekends. Should I require my
customer to accomodate my personal life? Perhaps my customer should just
close down his business so I can work when I want instead of doing it and
making the mess the evening or on the weekend and having it cleaned up and
ready for him to open in the AM ? I wouldn't be in business long if I did
that and if mom and pop don't change they won't be either...The mom and pops
hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their stores around here , not
contractors as you implied...

On Dec 29, 8:36*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile
and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that
sell quality at reasonable prices.

Bull$hit. There are plenty of us who will drive the extra mile, except
when we get there, they're only open from 8AM to 5PM Monday through
Friday. I happen to work Monday through Friday from 7AM to around 6PM
or so... Now I have to take a vacation day just to go to the mom & pop
hardware for a 2x4 or a piece of wire?

Oh they're open on Saturdays too... from 9AM til noon. Except when I
get there I get snarled at by the angry old man that runs the place,
or I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while
the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle, or I get told
how stupid I am, or I buck the crowd of people who also work on
weekdays.

Home Depot and Lowes are open from 7AM until 9PM EVERY DAY. I can get
in, get what I need, and get out without being snarled at, berated,
trampled, or ignored.

On Dec 30, 8:29*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it
takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a
lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to.

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being
open from 10AM to 7PM?

What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is
pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with
the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite
mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the
same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as
you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a
foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a
waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and
say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop
shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD
and Lowes TRY to help.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I
want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty
looks and aggrivated sneers.

on 12/30/2008 11:23 AM (ET) wrote the following:
On Dec 30, 8:29 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.


If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it
takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a
lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to.


There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.


There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being
open from 10AM to 7PM?

What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.


Really? Do they get their living expenses and profit from welfare or
something?
No wonder they are going out of business.


I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.


The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is
pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with
the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite
mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the
same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as
you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a
foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a
waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and
say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself.


Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.


Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop
shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD
and Lowes TRY to help.


It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.


I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I
want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty
looks and aggrivated sneers.



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Dec 30, 10:37*am, "benick" wrote:
"cm" wrote in message

...





This is a little off topic. One time I was servicing the staple gun
display at a Las Vegas HD and a customer walked up with a jammed staple
gun. An employee walked up and listened to the customers problem and then
took the gun and pointed it at his face while pulling the trigger to see
why it was jammed. He did this several times against my pleas to stop.
Dumb Ass

cm

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
....
On Dec 29, 10:43 pm, "benick" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our old wooden garage door is not in good shape. Saturday we went and
had
a look at the Clopay doors at the local HD and got a price including
installation. In the course of conversation I said, "Why Home Depot?
You're not the only people who sell Clopay. According to the Clopay
Web
site, company name here sells their doors too." HD guy says, "If you
buy from us, they're the people that do our installations anyway."

Today I went to the other store and got a significantly lower price
(including installation) for what is in all material respects the same
door but with a different model number -- and they don't use (because
they don't recommend) the EZ-Set spring system that can be adjusted
with
a power drill.

So two conclusions:

1. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get some dumb-ass
lowest-bidder
installer rather than somebody who knows what (s)he is doing.

2. Buying from HD -- and the same quite likely applies to Lowe's as
well -- doesn't necessarily mean that you get the best price.

Perce
Hi,
Wow! That was GREAT discovery by you. Support local business always.

When the mom and pops are open late and open Saturday afternoon and
SUNDAY
for WORKING folks I'll shop there.. They aren't of course which is why
they
are hurting and most of my money goes to HD or EBS (regional
semi-bigbox).
I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials..They are
refusing to change with the times and are being left behind..The blame is
entirely theirs...One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around
and
look at stuff and get ideas..The small mom and pops the stuff is all out
in
various buildings and it must be gotten for you , if you know exactly
what
to ask for. I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help...The mom and pops could
also
carry cheaper tools...Not everybody wants or can afford a 600 dollar
Makiti
tablesaw when a 100 dollar Ryobi will do for most weekend warriors..-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not missing work time to get my weekend project materials.

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

They are refusing to change with the times and are being left
behind

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

Yes I do expect mom and pop to HIRE help and be open more than 7 to 5 M-F
and 8-12 on Sat. if they want my money. I like to work 7-3:30 M-F but some
drywall jobs require that I work late and some weekends. Should I require my
customer to accomodate my personal life? Perhaps my customer should just
close down his business so I can work when I want instead of doing it and
making the mess the evening or on the weekend and having it cleaned up and
ready for him to open in the AM ? *I wouldn't be in business long if I did
that and if mom and pop don't change they won't be either...The mom and pops
hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their stores around here , not
contractors as you implied...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The mom and pops hire the same minimum wage idiots to staff their
stores around here, not contractors as you implied"

Hey, don't throw that back at me. It was you who said "I'm tired of
feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and being laughed at by
contractors and yard help"

The contractors I referred to are those that also *shop* at the "real"
stores and who often offer advice when they overhear a question - or
who I might ask directly. If they're laughing at me, they're doing
behind my back, but I don't care 'cuz I already have my answer.

You're also tired of being laughed at by the "yard help". I guess they
would be "the same minimum wage idiots" that the borgs hire. So I
guess that means they the borg staff is laughing at you also.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for
transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ
Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY
to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.)
plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will
puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation
services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus*
paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the
profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller
school districts in our area to provide transportation services for
them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying
their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well
as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ
every time a one-off transportation need arises.


Sounds good, but you're doomed.

In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to
private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In
almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental
agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both.

Have you considered:

1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply.
Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if
you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system.

2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans?
You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the
tragedy of the commons writ large.

3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the
rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck,
the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance!

There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school
system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes,
negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles,
let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing
guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc.,
necessary to do all these things.

In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense
for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher.
Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense.
What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single
check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a
multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs.

I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster. If I were
the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from
the Bible -- because of the old refrain:

I don't own this railroad,
I don't ring the bell,
But let the train jump the tracks,
And see who catches hell!

On Dec 30, 11:53*am, willshak wrote:
on 12/30/2008 11:23 AM (ET) wrote the following:
What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.

Really? Do they get their living expenses and profit from welfare or
something?
No wonder they are going out of business.

Mom and Pop own the Mom and Pop business, Einstein. They don't draw a
salary or pay themselves hourly wages. Profit from the store pays
their living expenses.

Because they don't draw a salary or pay themselves hourly wages, it
doesn't cost them a bit more to "staff" the store until 7PM as it does
to "staff" it only until 5PM.

The local Mom & Pop appliance store doesn't seem to have a problem
being open until 8:30PM on weeknights or until 6PM on Saturdays... I
needed a new clothes dryer because the 25-year-old one in my house
blew up Sunday night. It was great walking in there at 8PM, picking
out a dryer, and supporting a local business. The sales staff is a
little "old school" and dry on personality, but they didn't look down
their noses at me or give me crap for showing up so close to closing
time or call me stupid for choosing the wrong dryer. It's a rare case
of a local business doing the right things to stay competitive, and
it's working for them.

HeyBub wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for
transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ
Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY
to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.)
plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will
puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation
services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus*
paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the
profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller
school districts in our area to provide transportation services for
them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying
their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well
as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ
every time a one-off transportation need arises.


Sounds good, but you're doomed.

In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to
private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In
almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental
agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both.

Have you considered:

1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply.
Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if
you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system.

2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans?
You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the
tragedy of the commons writ large.

3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the
rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck,
the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance!

There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school
system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes,
negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles,
let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing
guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc.,
necessary to do all these things.

In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense
for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher.
Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense.


And hopefully by the time the person gets their MBA and gets a real job
they will realize there are lots of profitable companies that know when
it makes sense to not do that.

What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single
check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a
multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs.

I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster. If I were
the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from
the Bible -- because of the old refrain:

I don't own this railroad,
I don't ring the bell,
But let the train jump the tracks,
And see who catches hell!

On Dec 30, 11:23*am, wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:29*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it
takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a
lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to.

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being
open from 10AM to 7PM?

What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is
pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with
the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite
mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the
same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as
you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a
foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a
waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and
say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop
shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD
and Lowes TRY to help.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I
want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty
looks and aggrivated sneers.

Wow! Based on this post and your earlier one, you must have some
pretty crappy "mom and pop" stores in your area. I wouldn't shop there
either if they treated me like you make it sound.

Lucky for me, and many others in my area, we get treated with respect
and we get help from knowledgeable staff. That must be why these
stores are still in business, even with their limited hours. That must
be why the same store names keep coming up when people ask "Where do
you get your plumbing/electrical/whatever supplies?"

Here's a perfect example: I just ordered a part from a local appliance
parts store for my washer. I'll keep going back to them every time
because of the way I, a DIY homeowner, not an appliance repair
business, get treated. A few weeks ago I troubleshot my dryer and
stopped in to order the part I thought I needed. The woman behind the
counter asked me (nicely) why I thought it was that part. When I
described the symptoms, she suggested a different - and cheaper - part
which was more likely the cause. Turns out she was right. I guess in
your part of town I would have been laughed at, sneered at, and
probably sold the wrong part so I would have to go back and buy more.
Of course, I had to pick the part up before 5 on a weekday.

BTW – this is the same store that suggested I buy a sheet of Microwave
waveguide cover material instead of the single piece cover sold by
part number for my specific oven. That has saved me both time and
money.

When I went to real window store to buy windows, the installation
process was explained to me in detail, with no laughter or sneers. The
guy even suggested that I install the first window during his work
hours so I could call him if I had any questions. "Once you do one,
you'll sail through the rest." Guess who I'm going back to when I
replace my front door in the spring?

Consider this: Maybe what you want to do *is* stupid, or maybe you're
just too sensitive. Why would anyone give you dirty looks and
aggravated sneers when you are in their place of business to spend
money? Where I live, they offer suggestions meant to help so that
you'll come back and spend more money with them. I don’t live my life
thinking that I know all the answers and I don’t mind asking for help
when I need it.

Regardless of whether it's you or your location that causes you to get
the laughs and sneers, if you're ever up in my neck of the woods I'll
take you to some locally owned businesses where they treat their
customers with respect and are willing to help you complete your
projects - because they truly care if you come back, not like the
borgs where volume is all that matters.

Gotta go now - I need to call the parts counter at a mom and pop
lighting store to see if they carry a twin-breaker to fit my panel. I
seriously doubt that they'll laugh at me.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:59:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Dec 29, 8:36*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile
and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that
sell quality at reasonable prices.

Bull$hit. There are plenty of us who will drive the extra mile, except
when we get there, they're only open from 8AM to 5PM Monday through
Friday. I happen to work Monday through Friday from 7AM to around 6PM
or so... Now I have to take a vacation day just to go to the mom & pop
hardware for a 2x4 or a piece of wire?

Oh they're open on Saturdays too... from 9AM til noon. Except when I
get there I get snarled at by the angry old man that runs the place,
or I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while
the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle, or I get told
how stupid I am, or I buck the crowd of people who also work on
weekdays.

You must not live in the city of Rochester (based on your email addy),
where this is not the norm in my experience. The hardware stores I
frequent have full Saturday hours, and several are open Sundays from
9-3. Many of the serious contractor places are open at 7 am weekdays,
so if you delayed the start of your work day by an hour, you could get
a lot accomplished in terms of shopping for your project needs.

on 12/30/2008 12:41 PM (ET) wrote the following:
On Dec 30, 11:53 am, willshak wrote:

on 12/30/2008 11:23 AM (ET) wrote the following:

What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.

Really? Do they get their living expenses and profit from welfare or
something?
No wonder they are going out of business.


Mom and Pop own the Mom and Pop business, Einstein. They don't draw a
salary or pay themselves hourly wages. Profit from the store pays
their living expenses.

Well, Hawkins, is that working for free?

Because they don't draw a salary or pay themselves hourly wages, it
doesn't cost them a bit more to "staff" the store until 7PM as it does
to "staff" it only until 5PM.

The local Mom & Pop appliance store doesn't seem to have a problem
being open until 8:30PM on weeknights or until 6PM on Saturdays... I
needed a new clothes dryer because the 25-year-old one in my house
blew up Sunday night. It was great walking in there at 8PM, picking
out a dryer, and supporting a local business. The sales staff is a
little "old school" and dry on personality, but they didn't look down
their noses at me or give me crap for showing up so close to closing
time or call me stupid for choosing the wrong dryer. It's a rare case
of a local business doing the right things to stay competitive, and
it's working for them.



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Dec 30, 12:14*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for
transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ
Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY
to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.)
plus they make a profit. *Starting next year, our school district will
puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation
services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus*
paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the
profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller
school districts in our area to provide transportation services for
them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying
their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well
as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ
every time a one-off transportation need arises.

Sounds good, but you're doomed.

In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to
private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both.

I'm glad you said in *almost* every case. Read on....

In almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental
agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both.

Have you considered:

1. The illegal immigrant bus drivers of the private company work cheaply.
Your bus drivers will be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if
you don't pay them CEO wages, they can shut down your school system.

We're way off topic here, but the current drivers are not illegal
immigrants - most are already teamsters and the salaries were figured
into the cost projections.


2. Remember the picture of the 500 school busses under water in New Orleans?
You didn't see any Greyhound busses in a similar predicament. It's the
tragedy of the commons writ large.

We don't get floods up in western NY g

3. Some driver gets ****ed at the unruly kids and goes all stabby on the
rowdies. The parents can't recover damages from the school district - heck,
the school district probably doesn't even have liability insurance!

You can't count on the "private enterprise drivers" to be any better.

Earlier this year, on the very first day of school, a bus broke down.
The driver pulled over onto the shoulder of busy highway - the area
between the entrance ramp and the right lane - and called his
dispatcher. The company sent a replacement bus who pulled up behind
the other bus on the shoulder of the highway, and with 2 drivers and 1
other adult, began walking the 50 or so 1st and 2nd graders from bus
to bus. Cars were going by on both sides of the buses as the line of
kids walked down the shoulder. The school was never notified and they
had no police supervision. No one knew about it until some kids
mentioned "walking on the highway" to their parents that night.


There will be unanticipated expenses. For example, no one in your school
system has any experience rebuilding carburetors, mapping routes,
negotiating fuel contracts, training drivers, or even washing the vehicles,
let alone maintaining the equipment, securing permits, publishing
guidelines, establishing maintenance rituals, recruiting the skills, etc.,
necessary to do all these things.

I wonder what goes on in the district's maintenance building next to
where the district's trucks and grounds maintenance equipment is
stored. That heavy-duty tow truck and hydraulic lift in the big garage
must be for something other than our snow plows, tractors, graders and
other heavy equipment. Besides, why do you assume these items are
examples of "unanticipated expenses"? Do you think that these items
were simply ignored during the planning process? Do you really expect
that the district is going to buy a fleet of buses and then say "Oh
sh*t! They need gas? How come nobody mentioned that before? Here, use
my Mobil SpeedPass, but just this once. Please give them some credit.


In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense
for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher.
Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense.
What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single
check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a
multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs.

No argument, but the plan is modeled after another school district who
did the same thing a while back. (I heard a rep from that school
district give a presentation about the sucess of the program at a
planning meeting . I don't recall the out-of-state district's name,
but I could get it if a citation is needed).

The main problem here is that the district is currently paying a
higher and higher "fixed cost" for lower and lower service. There have
been other safety related issues than the example I gave above as well
as breakdowns, delays and personnel issues.


I hope it turns out differently for you, but I predict disaster.

I hope you're wrong, but I respect your point of view. I'll let you
know in a few years.


If I were
the superintendent, I'd have an iron-clad contract, written on a page from
the Bible -- because of the old refrain:

I don't own this railroad,
I don't ring the bell,
But let the train jump the tracks,
And see who catches hell!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 30, 10:59*am, wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:36*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

There are fewer and fewer of us who will drive the extra mile
and spend the extra time to find the few places that are left that
sell quality at reasonable prices.

Bull$hit. There are plenty of us who will drive the extra mile, except
when we get there, they're only open from 8AM to 5PM Monday through
Friday. I happen to work Monday through Friday from 7AM to around 6PM
or so... Now I have to take a vacation day just to go to the mom & pop
hardware for a 2x4 or a piece of wire?

Oh they're open on Saturdays too... from 9AM til noon. Except when I
get there I get snarled at by the angry old man that runs the place,
or I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while
the old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle, or I get told
how stupid I am, or I buck the crowd of people who also work on
weekdays.

Home Depot and Lowes are open from 7AM until 9PM EVERY DAY. I can get
in, get what I need, and get out without being snarled at, berated,
trampled, or ignored.

Please, if you are going to take part in a discussion, at least use
some reasonable examples.

"I stand at an empty service counter for an hour and a half while the
old lady, in plain sight, does her crossword puzzle"

"I get told how stupid I am"

I get "...snarled at, berated, trampled, or ignored."

First off, I don't know you, but I doubt you ever stood at an empty
counter for an hour and a half while some old lady did a crossword
puzzle.

Second, I doubt anyone told you how "stupid" you were, berated you or
trampled you. Getting snarled at or ignored may have happened, but
that can certainly happened at the borgs also - especially the ignored
part.

But wait - If you really did stand at an empty counter for and hour
and half while some old lady did a crossword puzzle, then perhaps you
deserved whatever you got. I don't know, I wasn't there, I'm just
saying...

On 12/30/08 12:14 pm HeyBub wrote:

It's similiar to what my School District is planning to do with for
transportation services next year. We currently contract with XYZ
Transportation for bus services. We currently cover all costs of XZY
to provide those services (gas, maintenance, storage, salaries, etc.)
plus they make a profit. Starting next year, our school district will
puchase our own busses, build our own depot and provide transportation
services "in-house". We're paying XYZ for everything anyway, *plus*
paying XYZ's profit, so by doing it ourselves, we save the cost of the
profit. In addition, we have an agreement in principal with 2 smaller
school districts in our area to provide transportation services for
them - at cost plus a smaller profit than they are currently paying
their provider. They save money, we offset some of our costs as well
as control the use of the services without having to deal with XYZ
every time a one-off transportation need arises.

Sounds good, but you're doomed.

In almost every case where a government service has been contracted to
private enterprise, the service improves or the cost goes down or both. In
almost every case where a private service has been assumed by a governmental
agency, the cost goes up or the service deteriorates or both.

For decades most state governments in Australia -- no matter what their
political "complexion" -- ran enterprises that competed with private
enterprises: e.g., banks and insurance companies. The govt. enterprises,
not needing to make a profit, kept the private enterprises from being
too greedy; the private enterprises, possibly having a less burdensome
administrative structure, kept the govt. enterprises from being too
inefficient.

In one particular area, motor vehicle insurance in Queensland, the
private companies gave up writing policies for the mandatory death or
bodily injury insurance because they could not compete with the State
Government Insurance Office's rates.

Again, when it came to construction projects, govt. departments figured
out what it would cost them to employ people directly to do the job,
then called for bids with the provision that no bid might be accepted at
all, if they figured that they could do it for less themselves than the
lowest-bidding private contractor.

In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable expense
for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly somewhat higher.
Management strives for this because the fixed expense is a known expense.
What you're about is the reverse: trading a fixed expense, that is, a single
check taking ten minutes of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a
multitude of imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs.

So you would be in favor of buying extended warranties/service
contracts/"performance guarantees" for cars and household appliances?

Perce

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Dec 30, 11:23 am, wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:29 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

But it's OK with you if mom and pop give up their evenings and
weekends to stay open for you.

If they want to be a profitable business, they need to do what it
takes. By only being open during "business hours" they are FORCING a
lot of people to shop elsewhere even if they don't want to.

There's a big difference between "refusing" to change and being able
to afford staffing for evenings and weekends, along with the benefits
and other costs of doing business.

There's a difference in cost between being open 8AM to 5PM vs. being
open from 10AM to 7PM?

What staffing is there to afford? Mom and Pop work for free.

I'm tired of feeling stupid trying to explain what I want and
being laughed at by contractors and yard help.

That sounds like a personal problem...or perhaps a problem with the
places you shop.

The condescending attitude of the employees at mom & pop stores is
pretty widespread. Of course you know the lingo, can talk shop with
the good ol' boys, and spend lots and lots of money at your favorite
mom & pop, so you've never experienced it. You don't get treated the
same when you come in for a faucet washer or a can of spray paint as
you do if you come in for a truckload of lumber. I'm not asking for a
foot massage, just a little civility. I don't care if you think I'm a
waste of your time, but keep it to yourself. Smile, ring me up, and
say "thank you." Keep the sneering and grumbling to yourself.

Personally, I'd rather deal with contractors who know their business
than the staff at the borgs who were flipping hamburgers or let go
from their accounting job yesterday. I spend more time explaining how
things work to them so they can figure out if they carry what I need.
Many times I find it on my own 'cuz they don't know what they carry or
- worse yet - don't know *why* they carry it.

Me too, but I'm not a contractor or a good ol' boy, so the mom & pop
shops give me little or no consideration. At least the people at HD
and Lowes TRY to help.

It's at the "real" stores where I can toss out a general idea and get
suggestions from them on how to get it done - and I don't feel stupid,
just like I wouldn't expect them to feel stupid if they ask me for
advice related to my line of work.

I don't feel stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I'm told that what I
want to do is stupid. I'm MADE to feel stupid when I get the dirty
looks and aggrivated sneers.

Wow! Based on this post and your earlier one, you must have some
pretty crappy "mom and pop" stores in your area. I wouldn't shop there
either if they treated me like you make it sound.

Lucky for me, and many others in my area, we get treated with respect
and we get help from knowledgeable staff. That must be why these
stores are still in business, even with their limited hours. That must
be why the same store names keep coming up when people ask "Where do
you get your plumbing/electrical/whatever supplies?"

Here's a perfect example: I just ordered a part from a local appliance
parts store for my washer. I'll keep going back to them every time
because of the way I, a DIY homeowner, not an appliance repair
business, get treated. A few weeks ago I troubleshot my dryer and
stopped in to order the part I thought I needed. The woman behind the
counter asked me (nicely) why I thought it was that part. When I
described the symptoms, she suggested a different - and cheaper - part
which was more likely the cause. Turns out she was right. I guess in
your part of town I would have been laughed at, sneered at, and
probably sold the wrong part so I would have to go back and buy more.
Of course, I had to pick the part up before 5 on a weekday.

BTW – this is the same store that suggested I buy a sheet of Microwave
waveguide cover material instead of the single piece cover sold by
part number for my specific oven. That has saved me both time and
money.

When I went to real window store to buy windows, the installation
process was explained to me in detail, with no laughter or sneers. The
guy even suggested that I install the first window during his work
hours so I could call him if I had any questions. "Once you do one,
you'll sail through the rest." Guess who I'm going back to when I
replace my front door in the spring?

Consider this: Maybe what you want to do *is* stupid, or maybe you're
just too sensitive. Why would anyone give you dirty looks and
aggravated sneers when you are in their place of business to spend
money? Where I live, they offer suggestions meant to help so that
you'll come back and spend more money with them. I don’t live my life
thinking that I know all the answers and I don’t mind asking for help
when I need it.

Regardless of whether it's you or your location that causes you to get
the laughs and sneers, if you're ever up in my neck of the woods I'll
take you to some locally owned businesses where they treat their
customers with respect and are willing to help you complete your
projects - because they truly care if you come back, not like the
borgs where volume is all that matters.

Gotta go now - I need to call the parts counter at a mom and pop
lighting store to see if they carry a twin-breaker to fit my panel. I
seriously doubt that they'll laugh at me.

Regardless of all the bull**** spread here if they ain't open they ain't
gonna sell anything....It really is as simple as that....

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

In MBA class 101, the first thing one learns is to trade a variable
expense for a fixed one - even if the fixed expense is seemingly
somewhat higher. Management strives for this because the fixed
expense is a known expense. What you're about is the reverse:
trading a fixed expense, that is, a single check taking ten minutes
of an accounts payables clerk's time, for a multitude of
imponderable, unknown, and potentially ruinous costs.

So you would be in favor of buying extended warranties/service
contracts/"performance guarantees" for cars and household appliances?


Do you have insurance on your home? If so, you're trading a fixed cost for
an unknown, variable cost.

I once bought a mouse pad at Circuit City for ninety-nine cents. The clerk
asked me if I wanted an extended warranty. I said: "Let me think about it.
You do the same." We stared at each other for about ten seconds and, without
another word being spoken, he completed the sale.

"benick" wrote:
One other thing I like is , at HD you can walk around and look at stuff
and get ideas..

We have a local store, an ACE dealer, with a great selection of various
items. The problem is that they are very insistent upon customer service,
to the point where they compete to put their stickers (with their names on
them) on any item you purchase.

Instead of peacefully fondling various items of interest, you are instead
constantly getting your thoughts interrupted by 20-something kids insisting
that you need "help".

To me, when I want help, I look for someone and ask for it. Otherwise, I
like to be left alone.

I mostly shop at HD for this very reason, unless I am specifically getting
something the other store carries, and then I leave promptly.

Jon