Ok guys, pick this one apart..... I have a wood stove in my
basement. I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. Do
you think this is a feasable plan? I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

On Dec 23, 9:41�am, Steve wrote:
Ok guys, pick this one apart..... �I have a wood stove in my
basement. �I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. �I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). �I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. �I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. �I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. �There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. �Do
you think this is a feasable plan? �I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... �Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

its a interesting idea, but i doubt large gains I woul;d of stuck
with the larger tank since its a long life purchase and more gallons
cost little more.

plus to be effective you will have to constantly be turning the
electric water heater off and on, or gain very little

On Dec 23, 8:41*am, Steve wrote:
Ok guys, pick this one apart..... *I have a wood stove in my
basement. *I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. *I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). *I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. *I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. *I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. *There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. *Do
you think this is a feasable plan? *I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... *Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

I kept a tank that was not leaking and use it as a tempering tank from
air temp, just that alone saves a bit, just a tank next to a heat
source will help alot, try it and figure out and put in bypass valves
so when something leaks you still have HW. My electric 40gal tank cost
about 35 a month to run, my present NG Tankless costs $9 in summer
with all gas cooking and clothes dryer and using the electric as a
tempering tank might be saving me a few $ a month. Be inventive all
things help.

On Dec 23, 9:23*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 23, 8:41*am, Steve wrote:





Ok guys, pick this one apart..... *I have a wood stove in my
basement. *I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. *I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). *I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. *I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. *I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. *There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. *Do
you think this is a feasable plan? *I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... *Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

I kept a tank that was not leaking and use it as a tempering tank from
air temp, just that alone saves a bit, just a tank next to a heat
source will help alot, try it and figure out and put in bypass valves
so when something leaks you still have HW. My electric 40gal tank cost
about 35 a month to run, my present NG Tankless costs $9 in summer
with all gas cooking and clothes dryer and using the electric as a
tempering tank might be saving me a few $ a month. Be inventive all
things help.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments! I plan to have shut off valves so I can
always go back to the standard setup. I do plan to go back to the
standard setup for summer as there will be no heat from the woodstove
at that time anyway. I guess I thought the 40 gal capacity for the
new heater would be sufficient for two people in the house and it was
about $30 less to buy than the 50 gal model. To begin with, I don't
plan to be shutting the new electric one off and on. It is well
insulated and has heat sinks in the inlet and outlet so it should not
be cycling on too much during the night. It's probably going to be
alot of work and probably about $40 to $50 for materials to get it set
up and probably at best it might save $15 a month during the heating
season (6 to 7 months in our area) so about $100 / year possibly? At
least I don't have to pay anybody to do the installation work.
Steve

On Dec 23, 11:18�am, Steve wrote:
On Dec 23, 9:23�am, ransley wrote:





On Dec 23, 8:41�am, Steve wrote:

Ok guys, pick this one apart..... �I have a wood stove in my
basement. �I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. �I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). �I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. �I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. �I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. �There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. �Do
you think this is a feasable plan? �I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... �Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

I kept a tank that was not leaking and use it as a tempering tank from
air temp, just that alone saves a bit, just a tank next to a heat
source will help alot, try it and figure out and put in bypass valves
so when something leaks you still have HW. My electric 40gal tank cost
about 35 a month to run, my present NG Tankless costs $9 in summer
with all gas cooking and clothes dryer and using the electric as a
tempering tank might be saving me a few $ a month. Be inventive all
things help.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments! �I plan to have shut off valves so I can
always go back to the standard setup. �I do plan to go back to the
standard setup for summer as there will be no heat from the woodstove
at that time anyway. �I guess I thought �the 40 gal capacity for the
new heater would be sufficient for two people in the house and it was
about $30 less to buy than the 50 gal model. �To begin with, I don't
plan to be shutting the new electric one off and on. �It is well
insulated and has heat sinks in the inlet and outlet so it should not
be cycling on too much �during the night. �It's probably going to be
alot of work and probably about $40 to $50 for materials to get it set
up and probably at best it might save $15 a month during the heating
season (6 to 7 months in our area) so about $100 / year possibly? �At
least I don't have to pay anybody to do the installation work.
Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

think about what you said, other than passive gain from the tank the
recirle line will be a loser.

tempered but still cold water enters, heater turns on, water gets to
120 and heater shuts off.

now some water recirls from the heat loop. if its not at least 120 it
will be cooling your tank and costing more money for electric.

as to tankless, electric tankless capable of running a home will
likely take 200 amps just to heat water. even ifd its just a 100 you
would still need a main service upgrade 200 amps for home, 200 amps
for heating water.......

new lines service power drop not worth the cost

i'm thinking this will work fine. BUT i wonder why you are retiring the
tank if it is still sound enough to be a tempering tank? I doubt if you get
the water to 100, but it'll be a damn site warmer than the incoming water.

s


"Steve" wrote in message
...
Ok guys, pick this one apart..... I have a wood stove in my
basement. I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. Do
you think this is a feasable plan? I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

On Dec 23, 10:28*am, " wrote:
On Dec 23, 11:18 am, Steve wrote:





On Dec 23, 9:23 am, ransley wrote:

On Dec 23, 8:41 am, Steve wrote:

Ok guys, pick this one apart..... I have a wood stove in my
basement. I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. Do
you think this is a feasable plan? I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

I kept a tank that was not leaking and use it as a tempering tank from
air temp, just that alone saves a bit, just a tank next to a heat
source will help alot, try it and figure out and put in bypass valves
so when something leaks you still have HW. My electric 40gal tank cost
about 35 a month to run, my present NG Tankless costs $9 in summer
with all gas cooking and clothes dryer and using the electric as a
tempering tank might be saving me a few $ a month. Be inventive all
things help.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments! I plan to have shut off valves so I can
always go back to the standard setup. I do plan to go back to the
standard setup for summer as there will be no heat from the woodstove
at that time anyway. I guess I thought the 40 gal capacity for the
new heater would be sufficient for two people in the house and it was
about $30 less to buy than the 50 gal model. To begin with, I don't
plan to be shutting the new electric one off and on. It is well
insulated and has heat sinks in the inlet and outlet so it should not
be cycling on too much during the night. It's probably going to be
alot of work and probably about $40 to $50 for materials to get it set
up and probably at best it might save $15 a month during the heating
season (6 to 7 months in our area) so about $100 / year possibly? At
least I don't have to pay anybody to do the installation work.
Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

think about what you said, other than passive gain from the tank the
recirle line will be a loser.

tempered but still cold water enters, heater turns on, water gets to
120 and heater shuts off.

now some water recirls from the heat loop. if its not at least 120 it
will be cooling your tank and costing more money for electric.

as to tankless, electric tankless capable of running a home will
likely take 200 amps just to heat water. even ifd its just a 100 you
would still need a main service upgrade 200 amps for home, 200 amps
for heating water.......

new lines service power drop not worth the cost- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Like I said I am not an engineer and can't do the thermodynamic
equations and btu loss or gain or heat transfer calculations. All I
can do is try it and see what happens. You could be right about the
heat loop not working out.... But its not quite like going to the
moon and not coming back is it (rocket science)? But seriously, I do
appreciate your comments as I am willing to learn and appreciate
others opinions.
All comments are very welcome and appreciated!
Steve

On Dec 23, 10:52*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
i'm thinking this will work fine. *BUT i wonder why you are retiring the
tank if it is still sound enough to be a tempering tank? *I doubt if you get
the water to 100, but it'll be a damn site warmer than the incoming water..

s

Good question! One of the thermostats went out on my old heater. It
was 30 + years old and I figured it was as good of a time as any to
try this tempering tank idea which I have been thinking of trying for
a long time. It just might be a dissapointment but I am willing to
try it.
Steve

On 2008-12-23, wrote:

think about what you said, other than passive gain from the tank the
recirle line will be a loser.

tempered but still cold water enters, heater turns on, water gets to
120 and heater shuts off.

now some water recirls from the heat loop. if its not at least 120 it
will be cooling your tank and costing more money for electric.

The proposed recirculation line originates and terminates at the
tempering tank. So no water from the electric water heater tank is
displaced from the recirculation line. The recirc line is just a way
to increase the heat gain of the tempering tank from the wood stove.

Cheers, Wayne

Steve wrote:

Good question! One of the thermostats went out on my old heater. It
was 30 + years old and I figured it was as good of a time as any to
try this tempering tank idea which I have been thinking of trying for
a long time. It just might be a dissapointment but I am willing to
try it.

I didn't read all the details in the original message, but have you considered
the total energy flows?

If the tempering tank is inside the building thermal envelope, the energy needed
to bring the water up to room temperature has to come from somewhere - most
likely your space heater. So, it isn't free.

If the tempering tank is outdoors, you have to consider that you have an
unheated space that will be chilling the water for at least part of the year...

Thanks for the comments! *I plan to have shut off valves so I can
always go back to the standard setup. *I do plan to go back to the
standard setup for summer as there will be no heat from the woodstove
at that time anyway.

Go ahead and use the tempering rtank in the summer. You'll at least
bring the water temp up from ground temp, which could be ~55F or so to
air temp, which could be ~70F or however hot it gets in the
summertime.

Ken

On Dec 23, 10:28*am, " wrote:
On Dec 23, 11:18 am, Steve wrote:





On Dec 23, 9:23 am, ransley wrote:

On Dec 23, 8:41 am, Steve wrote:

Ok guys, pick this one apart..... I have a wood stove in my
basement. I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. Do
you think this is a feasable plan? I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

I kept a tank that was not leaking and use it as a tempering tank from
air temp, just that alone saves a bit, just a tank next to a heat
source will help alot, try it and figure out and put in bypass valves
so when something leaks you still have HW. My electric 40gal tank cost
about 35 a month to run, my present NG Tankless costs $9 in summer
with all gas cooking and clothes dryer and using the electric as a
tempering tank might be saving me a few $ a month. Be inventive all
things help.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comments! I plan to have shut off valves so I can
always go back to the standard setup. I do plan to go back to the
standard setup for summer as there will be no heat from the woodstove
at that time anyway. I guess I thought the 40 gal capacity for the
new heater would be sufficient for two people in the house and it was
about $30 less to buy than the 50 gal model. To begin with, I don't
plan to be shutting the new electric one off and on. It is well
insulated and has heat sinks in the inlet and outlet so it should not
be cycling on too much during the night. It's probably going to be
alot of work and probably about $40 to $50 for materials to get it set
up and probably at best it might save $15 a month during the heating
season (6 to 7 months in our area) so about $100 / year possibly? At
least I don't have to pay anybody to do the installation work.
Steve- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

think about what you said, other than passive gain from the tank the
recirle line will be a loser.

tempered but still cold water enters, heater turns on, water gets to
120 and heater shuts off.

now some water recirls from the heat loop. if its not at least 120 it
will be cooling your tank and costing more money for electric.

as to tankless, electric tankless capable of running a home will
likely take 200 amps just to heat water. even ifd its just a 100 you
would still need a main service upgrade 200 amps for home, 200 amps
for heating water.......

new lines service power drop not worth the cost- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Even if its 70 from the stove it will be a winner, his incomming will
be likely 55 or less in winter, mine goes to 35-36f, if basement air
is above water temp he wins. Above a stove will be maybe 300f, and
tank is also next to wood stove.

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Ok guys, pick this one apart..... I have a wood stove in my
basement. I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. Do
you think this is a feasable plan? I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

A few wraps of soft copper around the bottom of the exhaust stack pipe would
pick up a lot more heat. Or, a loop around the stove, or a coil right on top[ of
the stove. Of course, the copper needs to be sloped so that the heated water
rises to the top of the tank for good flow.

Don't overdo heat pickup at the stack. If you cool the stack too much, you will
get excessive creosote build up in the stack.

If you are picking up a lot of heat, the tank insulation might be left on to get
truely hot water, or without insulation, the tank could operated as a heat
buffer, continuing to release heat after fire goes out.

If you want the old tank to last, check/replace the anode.

On Dec 23, 9:41*am, Steve wrote:
Ok guys, pick this one apart.....

You need a LOT of copper tubing out over the wood stove to pick up any
appreciable heat. Think refrigerator coil-style. Back and forth back
and forth

On Dec 23, 2:08*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message

...





Ok guys, pick this one apart..... *I have a wood stove in my
basement. *I just replaced my old 52 gal electric hot water tank with
a new 40 gal model. *I am planning to use my old stripped down tank as
a tempering tank ahead of my new heater and place it as close to my
wood stove as possible (about 6 inches or so away). *I plan to remove
the upper and lower elements on the old tank and replace them with a
1" copper line from the top element threaded opening to the bottom
threaded opening and extend the copper line over my wood stove so that
it will pick up heat from the stove / flue pipe. *I am thinking cool
water from the bottom will naturally be drawn up the copper line as it
is being heated by the wood stove and will circulate back to the top
and will constantly be looping around to warm the water inside the
tempering tank. *I am thinking that possibly overnight, the water in
the tank will eventually warm up to around 100 degrees F. And the new
electric heater will only need to heat that water up to 120 degrees
F. *There are only two people in the house and no automatic
dishwasher, warm water usage for the wash cycle only of the clothes
washer @ 2 loads per week, and maybe two short showers per day. *Do
you think this is a feasable plan? *I am not any kind of engineer, but
just a practical tinkerer trying to save a few bucks on my electrical
bill......... *Thanks for any comments on this!
Steve

A few wraps of soft copper around the bottom of the exhaust stack pipe would
pick up a lot more heat. Or, a loop around the stove, or a coil right on top[ of
the stove. Of course, the copper needs to be sloped so that the heated water
rises to the top of the tank for good flow.

This is pretty much what I was planning to do. I am wondering if 1"
diameter copper is too big? Or would 1/2" diameter be better? Or
does it matter?


Don't overdo heat pickup at the stack. If you cool the stack too much, you will
get excessive creosote build up in the stack.

I don't think, but not sure, this will be that much of a concern as
the copper tubing will not actually be contacting the stack. I
normally keep a good hot fire going with well above creosote making
temp (I use a magnetic stack flue temp guage) unless I'm letting the
fire go out and then it would be just hot coals and embers burning
out.


If you are picking up a lot of heat, the tank insulation might be left on to get
truely hot water, or without insulation, the tank could operated as a heat
buffer, continuing to release heat after fire goes out.

That's more than I could hope for.......


If you want the old tank to last, check/replace the anode.

I just got done scraping and cleaning the old anode. It was in quite
good condition. Nothing was eaten away from it at all. After 30
years I've only took it out and cleaned it once. The last time was
well over ten years ago. We are lucky to have fairly mineral free
water, probably why the old heater lasted so long. I also just
flushed out the bottom of the tank and the crud level was still below
the drain outlet of the tank. We do have a whole house water filter
and water softener.

Thanks again!
Steve

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:18:02 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote:

I guess I thought the 40 gal capacity for the
new heater would be sufficient for two people in the house and it was
about $30 less to buy than the 50 gal model.

Your new 40-gallon tank will be more than sufficient for the two of
you plus any guests you might have. We have a 40-gallon gas Bradford
White water heater for our 2,500 sf house (full bsmt, 1st, 2nd, and
3rd floors), and we've not had any water shortages even with as many
as 7 people in the house, and we use a dishwasher plus washing
machine. Obviously all the hot water demand can't be in the same
moment, so we just make sure to run the dishwasher and washer at times
when people are not likely to be showering, and all is good.

Tempering tanks are a very good idea--however, not with an electric
water heater. Do a search for Legionaires Disease and you'll find that
almost 30% of homes with electric water heaters have Legionella
bacteria growing in their tanks.

The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

The experts recommend upping electric water heaters to 140 as the only
way to effectively kill the bacteria.

Since gas water heaters heat the water from the bottom, all the heat
goes into the sediment, killing the bacteria.

Here's an excerpt from a scientific study:

Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization
(WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in
drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the
transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution
systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with
high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly,
smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic
respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of
the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap
water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C
because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella
inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis.

Domestic water heaters, particularly electric devices, can certainly
be contaminated by Legionella. In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178
electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella
contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using
fossil fuels were contaminated (5). The authors concluded that,
because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the
most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot
water (5) in the home.

Here's the complete link to the study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2094925

If you want more info, google legionella electric heater

Are we having fun yet?

BOY! now here's some paranoia gone to seed...... I'll bet you think 911
was an inside job also eh?

s


"Rick-Meister" wrote in message
...
Tempering tanks are a very good idea--however, not with an electric
water heater. Do a search for Legionaires Disease and you'll find that
almost 30% of homes with electric water heaters have Legionella
bacteria growing in their tanks.

The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

The experts recommend upping electric water heaters to 140 as the only
way to effectively kill the bacteria.

Since gas water heaters heat the water from the bottom, all the heat
goes into the sediment, killing the bacteria.

Here's an excerpt from a scientific study:

Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization
(WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in
drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the
transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution
systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with
high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly,
smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic
respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of
the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap
water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C
because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella
inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis.

Domestic water heaters, particularly electric devices, can certainly
be contaminated by Legionella. In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178
electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella
contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using
fossil fuels were contaminated (5). The authors concluded that,
because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the
most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot
water (5) in the home.

Here's the complete link to the study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2094925

If you want more info, google legionella electric heater

Are we having fun yet?

On Dec 23, 5:23*pm, Rick-Meister wrote:
Tempering tanks are a very good idea--however, not with an electric
water heater. Do a search for Legionaires Disease and you'll find that
almost 30% of homes with electric water heaters have Legionella
bacteria growing in their tanks.

The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

The experts recommend upping electric water heaters to 140 as the only
way to effectively kill the bacteria.

Since gas water heaters heat the water from the bottom, all the heat
goes into the sediment, killing the bacteria.

Here's an excerpt from a scientific study:

Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization
(WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in
drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the
transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution
systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with
high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly,
smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic
respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of
the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap
water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C
because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella
inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis.

Domestic water heaters, particularly electric devices, can certainly
be contaminated by Legionella. In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178
electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella
contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using
fossil fuels were contaminated (5). The authors concluded that,
because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the
most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot
water (5) in the home.

Here's the complete link to the study:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2094925

If you want more info, google legionella electric heater

Are we having fun yet?

Interesting....... If there is some possibility of this happening, I
am wondering why it has not been made more of an issue to the
public????? There have to be millions of electric hot water heaters
in use in this country and I would bet that a very large % of them are
set at or even below 120 degrees F. That temp is what most if not all
new electric heaters are factory set at. I guess the burn concern is
greater than the bug concern........

Steve

On Dec 23, 5:23*pm, Rick-Meister wrote:
The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

I don't quite agree with this statement. Electric heaters have
heating elements that are threaded into the side of the tank but the
element extends into or past the center of the tank. The bottom
element comes on first to do the major portion of heating the water
and the top element helps keep the temp at the set temp - as I
understand it.

Steve

On Dec 23, 5:23*pm, Rick-Meister wrote:

Here's an excerpt from a scientific study:

Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization
(WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in
drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the
transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution
systems in private homes.


I am wondering if this study is considering what the source of the
water is?? Public water supply system such as in residential and city
areas? Or rural drilled wells?? Or is the bacteria inherrent in any
water supply?

I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.

It's found in nature but is resistant to chlorine. Heat is the best
killer. Ironically, if you read deeper into the studies, you find that
homes with electric water heaters and copper plumbing had a
significantly lower incidence of the bacteria compared to homes with
galvanized pipes.

They think the bacteria feeds on iron and is killed by copper. But the
studies are somewhat inconclusive on that.

well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry.

1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.

s


"Rick-Meister" wrote in message
...
I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.

pssst..... i rekon the whole thing is just bull****.

s

otherwise 1 third of our neighbors would be dead.


s

"Steve" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 5:23 pm, Rick-Meister wrote:

Here's an excerpt from a scientific study:

Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization
(WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in
drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the
transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution
systems in private homes.


I am wondering if this study is considering what the source of the
water is?? Public water supply system such as in residential and city
areas? Or rural drilled wells?? Or is the bacteria inherrent in any
water supply?

Well, the symptoms mimick pneumonia so it's hard to make a firm
diagnosis. The people most at risk for death are those with weakened
immune systems, smokers, and elderly.

Otherwise, you could think you had a bad case of bronchitis or some
other respiratory infection and not know you had Legionaire's Disease.
If you catch it early, it's cured with antibiotics. .

You get it from breathing in the mists in the shower.

Then again, I suppose you can't believe anything the CDC or World
Health Organizations write.

or can you?

Since you guys are so skeptical---read this:

Each year, between 8,000 and 18,000 people are hospitalized with
Legionnaires' disease in the U.S. However, many infections are not
diagnosed or reported, so this number may be higher. More illness is
usually found in the summer and early fall, but it can happen any time
of year.

What are the symptoms of Legionnaires' disease?

Legionnaires' disease can have symptoms like many other forms of
pneumonia, so it can be hard to diagnose at first. Signs of the
disease can include: a high fever, chills, and a cough. Some people
may also suffer from muscle aches and headaches. Chest X-rays are
needed to find the pneumonia caused by the bacteria, and other tests
can be done on sputum (phlegm), as well as blood or urine to find
evidence of the bacteria in the body.

These symptoms usually begin 2 to 14 days after being exposed to the
bacteria.

A milder infection caused by the same type of Legionella bacteria is
called Pontiac Fever . The symptoms of Pontiac Fever usually last for
2 to 5 days and may also include fever, headaches, and muscle aches;
however, there is no pneumonia. Symptoms go away on their own without
treatment and without causing further problems.

Pontiac Fever and Legionnaires' disease may also be called
"Legionellosis" (LEE-juh-nuh-low-sis) separately or together.

How serious is it? What is the treatment?

Legionnaires' disease can be very serious and can cause death in up to
5% to 30% of cases. Most cases can be treated successfully with
antibiotics [drugs that kill bacteria in the body], and healthy people
usually recover from infection.

On Dec 23, 8:06*pm, Rick-Meister wrote:
It's found in nature but is resistant to chlorine. Heat is the best
killer. Ironically, if you read deeper into the studies, you find that
homes with electric water heaters and copper plumbing had a
significantly lower incidence of the bacteria compared to homes with
galvanized pipes.

They think the bacteria feeds on iron and is killed by copper. But the
studies are somewhat inconclusive on that.

Well, maybe I'm somewhat safe as I only have copper plumbing. In no
way am I calling you, the messenger, paranoid. I'd like to thank you
for bringing this to my attention. I plan to do some more reading
into this. Thanks!

Steve

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:01:16 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote Re Tempering tank for hot water system:

Interesting....... If there is some possibility of this happening, I
am wondering why it has not been made more of an issue to the
public?????

Because very few people drink water from their hot water heater. If
they do, they usually heat it up more while cooking, making
coffee/tea, etc. thus killing any bacteria that might be present.

"Steve" wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 5:23 pm, Rick-Meister wrote:
The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

I don't quite agree with this statement. Electric heaters have
heating elements that are threaded into the side of the tank but the
element extends into or past the center of the tank. The bottom
element comes on first to do the major portion of heating the water
and the top element helps keep the temp at the set temp - as I
understand it.

************************************************** *******

The top element heats the water near the outlet, then the lower element heats
the rest of the water. Thus, you get hot water faster than if you just used the
lower element.

On Dec 24, 2:47�am, Caesar Romano wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:01:16 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote Re Tempering tank for hot water system:

Interesting....... �If there is some possibility of this happening, I
am wondering why it has not been made more of an issue to the
public????? �

Because very few people drink water from their hot water heater. If
they do, they usually heat it up more while cooking, making
coffee/tea, etc. thus killing any bacteria that might be present.

oh anyone can drink once heated water easily.

your wife washes her hands in hot water turns water off, walks
away.....

10 minutes later you came in and get a drink of water from the tap.

the once heated water is trapped in the faucet, your drink is
partially once heated water

On Dec 24, 6:34*am, " wrote:
On Dec 24, 2:47 am, Caesar Romano wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:01:16 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote Re Tempering tank for hot water system:

Interesting....... If there is some possibility of this happening, I
am wondering why it has not been made more of an issue to the
public?????

Because very few people drink water from their hot water heater. If
they do, they usually heat it up more while cooking, making
coffee/tea, etc. thus killing any bacteria that might be present.

oh anyone can drink once heated water easily.

your wife washes her hands in hot water turns water off, walks
away.....

10 minutes later you came in and get a drink of water from the tap.

the once heated water is trapped in the faucet, your drink is
partially once heated water

I say urban myth, just look at all of those giant water tanks
supplying communities all over the world that dont make people sick.
Then there is chlorine that kills what really makes you sick and
legionela.

On Dec 23, 9:41*pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry.

1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.


That's what I was wondering too. In other words, what does this have
to do with a tempering tank? If it takes 140 deg to make hot water
legionaire free, then just set the electric water heater to 140 deg
whether you use a tempering tank or not.






s

"Rick-Meister" wrote in message

...



I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 23, 8:55*pm, Rick-Meister wrote:
Well, the symptoms mimick pneumonia so it's hard to make a firm
diagnosis. The people most at risk for death are those with weakened
immune systems, smokers, and elderly.

Otherwise, you could think you had a bad case of bronchitis or some
other respiratory infection and not know you had Legionaire's Disease.
If you catch it early, it's cured with antibiotics. .

You get it from breathing in the mists in the shower.

Then again, I suppose you can't believe anything the CDC or World
Health Organizations write.

or can you?

Since you guys are so skeptical---read this:

Each year, between 8,000 and 18,000 people are hospitalized with
Legionnaires' disease in the U.S. However, many infections are not
diagnosed or reported, so this number may be higher. More illness is
usually found in the summer and early fall, but it can happen any time
of year.

*What are the symptoms of Legionnaires' disease?

Legionnaires' disease can have symptoms like many other forms of
pneumonia, so it can be hard to diagnose at first. Signs of the
disease can include: a high fever, chills, and a cough. Some people
may also suffer from muscle aches and headaches. Chest X-rays are
needed to find the pneumonia caused by the bacteria, and other tests
can be done on sputum (phlegm), as well as blood or urine to find
evidence of the bacteria in the body.

These symptoms usually begin 2 to 14 days after being exposed to the
bacteria.

A milder infection caused by the same type of Legionella bacteria is
called Pontiac Fever . The symptoms of Pontiac Fever usually last for
2 to 5 days and may also include fever, headaches, and muscle aches;
however, there is no pneumonia. Symptoms go away on their own without
treatment and without causing further problems.

Pontiac Fever and Legionnaires' disease may also be called
"Legionellosis" (LEE-juh-nuh-low-sis) separately or together.

*How serious is it? What is the treatment?

Legionnaires' disease can be very serious and can cause death in up to
5% to 30% of cases. Most cases can be treated successfully with
antibiotics [drugs that kill bacteria in the body], and healthy people
usually recover from infection.

From other articles I have read, it sounds like it is most likely to
occur where water has been stagnant for a period of time like in a
water leg to a faucet that doesn't get used very often. If water is
continually being used daily through a hot water heater system, there
seems to be less of a chance of occurrance. But there are lots and
lots of studies done on this and it depends on which ones you tend to
believe. Also, large buildings with huge hot water distribution
systems can be particularly vulnerable and especially the outer
reaches of the hot water systems. Lots of interesting stuff that I
wouldn't have known about if not for the Rick-Meister bringing this
up...........

Thanks!
Steve

On Dec 24, 7:47*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 24, 6:34*am, " wrote:





On Dec 24, 2:47 am, Caesar Romano wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:01:16 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote Re Tempering tank for hot water system:

Interesting....... If there is some possibility of this happening, I
am wondering why it has not been made more of an issue to the
public?????

Because very few people drink water from their hot water heater. If
they do, they usually heat it up more while cooking, making
coffee/tea, etc. thus killing any bacteria that might be present.

oh anyone can drink once heated water easily.

your wife washes her hands in hot water turns water off, walks
away.....

10 minutes later you came in and get a drink of water from the tap.

the once heated water is trapped in the faucet, your drink is
partially once heated water

I say urban myth, just look at all of those giant water tanks
supplying communities all over the world that dont make people sick.

Then there is chlorine that kills what really makes you sick and
legionela.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, but In the civilized world, where disease is under control, the
water from those tanks is treated with cholrine before being delivered
to the user. In the case of a water heater, one could have a
domestic well, which is an entirely different situation.

I tend to agree though that from a practical standpoint, of all the
legionaire stories I've ever read, none that I've seen involved
getting it from a domestic water heater.

On Dec 24, 3:33*am, "Bob F" wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message

...
On Dec 23, 5:23 pm, Rick-Meister wrote:

The reason electrics have the problem is because they heat from the
side. That leaves a cooler zone at the bottom of the tank. The
bacteria feeds on sediment and cooler water--anything under 122
degrees.

I don't quite agree with this statement. *Electric heaters have
heating elements that are threaded into the side of the tank but the
element extends into or past the center of the tank. *The bottom
element comes on first to do the major portion of heating the water
and the top element helps keep the temp at the set temp - as I
understand it.

************************************************** *******

The top element heats the water near the outlet, then the lower element heats
the rest of the water. Thus, you get hot water faster than if you just used the
lower element.

Did you know that if the top element goes out, the bottom one will not
work? It happened to me.

Steve

It should be set to at least 140 regardless of your paranoia level. You
can't wash dishes properly at any less.

s


wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 9:41 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry.

1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.


That's what I was wondering too. In other words, what does this have
to do with a tempering tank? If it takes 140 deg to make hot water
legionaire free, then just set the electric water heater to 140 deg
whether you use a tempering tank or not.






s

"Rick-Meister" wrote in message

...



I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 24, 9:08*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
It should be set to at least 140 regardless of your paranoia level. *You
can't wash dishes properly at any less.

s

wrote in message

...
On Dec 23, 9:41 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry.
1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.

That's what I was wondering too. * In other words, what does this have
to do with a tempering tank? * If it takes 140 deg to make hot water
legionaire free, then just set the electric water heater to 140 deg
whether you use a tempering tank or not.





s

"Rick-Meister" wrote in message

.. .

I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Clean dishes, legionares, aids, syphlis, Nile fever, paranoia. I heat
water in my place and apartments only as hot as needed to take a good
shower. It saves money and nobody gets sick or complains. My next gas
bills might be near 4000.00 I pay to much already to waste money on
heating water more, which literaly is $ down the drain. Dishes are
clean for less $ and Ng is saved. 140f is harder on pipes than 120,
scale builds much quicker, leaks occur more often, valves dont last as
long, water heaters last longer.

On Dec 24, 11:53*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 24, 9:08*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:





It should be set to at least 140 regardless of your paranoia level. *You
can't wash dishes properly at any less.

s

wrote in message

....
On Dec 23, 9:41 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry..
1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.

That's what I was wondering too. * In other words, what does this have
to do with a tempering tank? * If it takes 140 deg to make hot water
legionaire free, then just set the electric water heater to 140 deg
whether you use a tempering tank or not.

s

"Rick-Meister" wrote in message

.. .

I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.

Water heater manufacturers recommend setting the T-stats at 130-140
degrees. That's much higher than in years past--before they discovered
the Legionella bacteria. The higher temps set up a potential for
scalding. The scalding issue is why plumbing codes now require mixing
valves in the shower. Some local communities require mixing valves at
EVERY faucet.

If this was no big deal, there would be no need for the higher temps
and no need for anti-scald valves. You could set your water heater at
104 degrees, which is plenty hot for a shower.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Clean dishes, legionares, aids, syphlis, Nile fever, paranoia. I heat
water in my place and apartments only as hot as needed to take a good
shower. It saves money and nobody gets sick or complains. My next gas
bills might be near 4000.00 I pay to much already to waste money on
heating water more, which literaly is $ down the drain. Dishes are
clean for less $ and Ng is saved. 140f is harder on pipes than 120,
scale builds much quicker, leaks occur more often, valves dont last as
long, water heaters last longer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

to the OP re the tempering tank...
in the winter, the energy used to warm the water will be taken from
the heat that would have heated the basmeent, if you have excess, then
fine go for it...

but what i really wanted to asay is in any case please be sure to
include temperature pressure relief valves both on the tempering
tank and the main tank especially if you are setting up your valves to
be able to bypass one or the other.

The last thing you EVER want is a sealed tank with water and a source
of heat..

Mark

On Dec 23, 11:34*am, Robert Neville wrote:
Steve wrote:
Good question! *One of the thermostats went out on my old heater. *It
was 30 + years old and I figured it was as good of a time as any to
try this tempering tank idea which I have been thinking of trying for
a long time. *It just might be a dissapointment but I am willing to
try it.

I didn't read all the details in the original message, but have you considered
the total energy flows?

If the tempering tank is inside the building thermal envelope, the energy needed
to bring the water up to room temperature has to come from somewhere - most
likely your space heater. So, it isn't free.

If the tempering tank is outdoors, you have to consider that you have an
unheated space that will be chilling the water for at least part of the year...

He has a wood stove in winter, and warm summer air in summer. It works
for my set up. His problem is to not forget a pan and hose under the
tank, in a hot summer it could be a dripping mess.

On Dec 24, 11:30*am, wrote:
On Dec 24, 11:53*am, ransley wrote:





On Dec 24, 9:08*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

It should be set to at least 140 regardless of your paranoia level. *You
can't wash dishes properly at any less.

s

wrote in message

....
On Dec 23, 9:41 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

well even IF all this is actually true, i guess i don't have to worry.
1. I don't have electric in my own house
2. I always set them at at least 140 degrees.

That's what I was wondering too. * In other words, what does this have
to do with a tempering tank? * If it takes 140 deg to make hot water
legionaire free, then just set the electric water heater to 140 deg
whether you use a tempering tank or not.

s

"Rick-Meister" wrote in message

.. .

I love it. Someone points out a scientific study and the messenger
gets accused of being paranoid. This is a serious problem and there
have been at least two dozens of studies on it all over the world.. It
affects about 1/3 of all residential electric water heaters. It's
written up on the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health
Organization websites. It kills people--literally. So maybe you should
think twice about mocking those who bring up a serious potential
health problem.

You can disagree all you want about the heating elements, but what I
stated wasn't opinion, it's fact. The scientific studies show that the
water at the very bottom of the tank can be almost 20 degrees cooler
than water near the lower thermostat. So your opinion is really
irrelevant to this discussion.

The fact that you've never heard of this before is also irrelevant.