Hi,

In an earlier post, I described my kitchen project and my need for a
subpanel. I'm now ready to undertake the project. So here's my
algorithm, is there anything wrong with it.

1. Install a 70 amp breaker in the main panel.
2. By #4 wire and connect it to that breaker as it if were just
another circuit.
3. Run that wire to the subpanel where, I assume, there will only be
one self-explanatory way of connecting it. (Will it be connected in
the same way as the cable that comes from the street is connected to
the main panel.)
4. Connect circuits to the subpanel.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

In an earlier post, I described my kitchen project and my need for a
subpanel. I'm now ready to undertake the project. So here's my
algorithm, is there anything wrong with it.

1. Install a 70 amp breaker in the main panel.
2. By #4 wire and connect it to that breaker as it if were just
another circuit.
3. Run that wire to the subpanel where, I assume, there will only be
one self-explanatory way of connecting it. (Will it be connected in
the same way as the cable that comes from the street is connected to
the main panel.)
4. Connect circuits to the subpanel.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

The only difference is that in the main panel, there will be a bonding
jumper that attaches the neutral/ ground buss to the panel. In the sub panel
you won't use that jumper and you may have to purchase and install a
separate ground buss. The neutral conductors will go to the insulated buss,
and the ground conductors will go to the buss directly attached to the panel

Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

In an earlier post, I described my kitchen project and my need for a
subpanel. I'm now ready to undertake the project. So here's my
algorithm, is there anything wrong with it.

1. Install a 70 amp breaker in the main panel.
2. By #4 wire and connect it to that breaker as it if were just
another circuit.
3. Run that wire to the subpanel where, I assume, there will only be
one self-explanatory way of connecting it. (Will it be connected in
the same way as the cable that comes from the street is connected to
the main panel.)
4. Connect circuits to the subpanel.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required. Either by installing a
main breaker kit in the sub-panel OR what I did was to back feed the
sub-panel through a standard breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than
the main breaker kit, but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.
IOW I put a 60A breaker in my main panel and ran that to a 60A breaker
in my sub-panel, leaving the main lugs empty.

Kevin

On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that
said that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect
anyway in my situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building.
I believe NEC requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or
detached? It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at
the roof. I treated it as detached.


OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin




Cheers, Wayne

On Dec 21, 10:32*pm, Kevin Ricks wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. *To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that
said that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect
anyway in my situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building.
I believe NEC requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
* Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or
detached? It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at
the roof. I treated it as detached.



OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin





Cheers, Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi,

This is a very valuable discussion for me, I was wondering if you
could define some of the terms that you were using, since I am still
at the point where I know hot/neutral/ground/breaker/panel/subpanel/
main breaker. What a

Disconnect -
Lug -
Main Lugs
Holddown Bracket -
Back feed -
Main breaker KIT -

Thank you in advance!

Aaron

"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
...
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that said
that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect anyway in my
situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building. I believe NEC
requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or detached?
It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at the roof. I
treated it as detached.


OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin




Cheers, Wayne

The NEC does require a disconnect in a sub panel in a detached building, but
it also allows up to 6 disconnects in the panel, which is probably where the
single column of breakers comes from

"Jennifer Eden" wrote in message
...
On Dec 21, 10:32 pm, Kevin Ricks wrote:
Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that
said that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect
anyway in my situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building.
I believe NEC requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or
detached? It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at
the roof. I treated it as detached.



OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin





Cheers, Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi,

This is a very valuable discussion for me, I was wondering if you
could define some of the terms that you were using, since I am still
at the point where I know hot/neutral/ground/breaker/panel/subpanel/
main breaker. What a

Disconnect - switch or breaker to turn off electricity
Lug - connector in panel to attach wires
Main Lugs lugs where the wires feeding the panel are attached
Holddown Bracket - bracket that holds a main circuit breaker to the panel
Back feed - Back feed circuit breaker connecting the main panel wires to a
circuit breaker plugged into the panel, as opposed to attaching to an
installed main circuit breaker , or lugs
Main breaker KIT - some panels that come with lugs only, can be furnished
with main breaker kits. You can purchase a panel either way

Thank you in advance!

Aaron

On Dec 22, 7:36*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Jennifer Eden" wrote in message

...
On Dec 21, 10:32 pm, Kevin Ricks wrote:





Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that
said that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect
anyway in my situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building.
I believe NEC requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or
detached? It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at
the roof. I treated it as detached.

OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin

Cheers, Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi,

This is a very valuable discussion for me, I was wondering if you
could define some of the terms that you were using, since I am still
at the point where I know hot/neutral/ground/breaker/panel/subpanel/
main breaker. What a

Disconnect - switch or breaker to turn off electricity
Lug - connector in panel to attach wires
Main Lugs *lugs where the wires feeding the panel are attached
Holddown Bracket - *bracket that holds a main circuit breaker to the panel
Back feed - Back feed circuit breaker *connecting the main panel wires to a
circuit breaker plugged into the panel, as opposed to attaching to an
installed main circuit breaker , or lugs
Main breaker KIT - some panels that come with lugs only, can be furnished
with main breaker kits. You can purchase a panel either way

Thank you in advance!

Aaron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you.

So - what are the pros and cons and having a main breaker on the
subpanel. (I noticed that it is a little more expensive to have the
breaker, but not enough to affect my decision.)

Thank you in advance.

"Jennifer Eden" wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 7:36 am, "RBM" wrote:
"Jennifer Eden" wrote in message

...
On Dec 21, 10:32 pm, Kevin Ricks wrote:





Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2008-12-21, Kevin Ricks wrote:

In my area sub-panel disconnects are required.

That seems odd--shutting off the main breaker in a subpanel doesn't
render it safe to work on, as the incoming feeder conductors are still
energized. To deenergize the panel, you have to kill the feeder
itself.

I was told the local inspector would require the disconnects where there
are 2 columns of breakers in the panel? With one column you can turn
everything off in one sweeping hand motion...with 2 columns your all
confused in a panic emergency ..... It was just a store employee that
said that... , but it may be that the NEC would require disconnect
anyway in my situation. It's an 8 slot sub in a detached shop building.
I believe NEC requires disconnects for subs in detached buildings.
Actually, I am not sure if my shop is classified as attached or
detached? It's separated from the house by a breezeway but attached at
the roof. I treated it as detached.

OR what I did was to back feed the sub-panel through a standard
breaker (60A in my case). Much cheaper than the main breaker kit,
but it uses up 2 slots in the sub-panel.

This configuration requires an additional holddown bracket on the
backfed breaker.

Thanks I didn't know that.
Kevin

Cheers, Wayne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi,

This is a very valuable discussion for me, I was wondering if you
could define some of the terms that you were using, since I am still
at the point where I know hot/neutral/ground/breaker/panel/subpanel/
main breaker. What a

Disconnect - switch or breaker to turn off electricity
Lug - connector in panel to attach wires
Main Lugs lugs where the wires feeding the panel are attached
Holddown Bracket - bracket that holds a main circuit breaker to the panel
Back feed - Back feed circuit breaker connecting the main panel wires to a
circuit breaker plugged into the panel, as opposed to attaching to an
installed main circuit breaker , or lugs
Main breaker KIT - some panels that come with lugs only, can be furnished
with main breaker kits. You can purchase a panel either way

Thank you in advance!

Aaron- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you.

So - what are the pros and cons and having a main breaker on the
subpanel. (I noticed that it is a little more expensive to have the
breaker, but not enough to affect my decision.)

Thank you in advance.

I don't see any advantage to having a second disconnect if the sub is in the
same building as the main panel. If it's in a detached building, it is a
requirement

being in the same building brings up another question i had the other day.
I've got a sub right next to the main panel ( to add spots) . Does it
still have to have the ground and neutral seperate and fed with 4 wires in
this situation?

steve


"RBM" wrote in message
...


I don't see any advantage to having a second disconnect if the sub is in
the same building as the main panel. If it's in a detached building, it is
a requirement

On 2008-12-23, Steve Barker wrote:

being in the same building brings up another question i had the
other day. I've got a sub right next to the main panel ( to add
spots) . Does it still have to have the ground and neutral seperate
and fed with 4 wires in this situation?

Yes. In any building, there is to be only one point in an electrical
system in which the ground and neutral (grounding system and grounded
conductor) are interconnected**. That point is at the main
disconnect; anywhere downstream of it the grounds and neutrals are to
be kept separate.

Cheers, Wayne

** If you have, for example, a generator in which the transfer switch
switches the neutral conductor, then that is called a separately
derived system (SDS), and as a separate electrical system it has
its own ground-neutral bond.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
being in the same building brings up another question i had the other day.
I've got a sub right next to the main panel ( to add spots) . Does it
still have to have the ground and neutral seperate and fed with 4 wires in
this situation?

steve


"RBM" wrote in message
...


I don't see any advantage to having a second disconnect if the sub is in
the same building as the main panel. If it's in a detached building, it
is a requirement

Probably. If the panel you're calling a sub panel, is fed from the other
panel, it is in fact a sub panel, and must have separate busses. You can
however have up to six panels with main disconnects in each of them, and
each would be treated as a main panel, and grounds and neutrals would be
bonded together in all of them

"RBM" wrote in message
...
Probably. If the panel you're calling a sub panel, is fed from the other
panel, it is in fact a sub panel, and must have separate busses. You can
however have up to six panels with main disconnects in each of them, and
each would be treated as a main panel, and grounds and neutrals would be
bonded together in all of them




and each of these six panels would be fed how? to qualify for this
scenario?

thanks

steve

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...
Probably. If the panel you're calling a sub panel, is fed from the
other
panel, it is in fact a sub panel, and must have separate busses. You can
however have up to six panels with main disconnects in each of them, and
each would be treated as a main panel, and grounds and neutrals would be
bonded together in all of them




and each of these six panels would be fed how? to qualify for this
scenario?

thanks

steve
They could each be nippled out of a gutter trough where they would be
bugged onto the service main feeders, as one possible example

so obviously never from one box to the next?

s


"RBM" wrote in message
...


They could each be nippled out of a gutter trough where they would be
bugged onto the service main feeders, as one possible example

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
so obviously never from one box to the next?

s


"RBM" wrote in message
...


They could each be nippled out of a gutter trough where they would be
bugged onto the service main feeders, as one possible example



With large industrial panels, I've seen two nippled together. The first
would use double lugs, so the feeder would go in and out to the second, but
more often the panels are nippled out of a trough, so there's good working
space for the connections

On Dec 23, 11:48*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
being in the same building brings up another question i had the other day..
I've got a sub right next to the main panel ( to add spots) *. *Does it
still have to have the ground and neutral seperate and fed with 4 wires in
this situation?

steve

"RBM" wrote in message

...



I don't see any advantage to having a second disconnect if the sub is in
the same building as the main panel. If it's in a detached building, it is
a requirement

That depends on how the additional panel is supplied. If it is
supplied from a breaker in the cabinet that contains the "Service
Disconnecting Means" then you will need to separate the neutral
conductors and the equipment grounding conductors as already
described. If it is supplied by service entry conductors then you
wire it exactly the same as you would the first panel.

--
Tom Horne

On Dec 23, 9:33*pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
so obviously never from one box to the next?

s

"RBM" wrote in message

...They could each be nippled out of a gutter trough where they would be
bugged onto the service main feeders, as one possible example

Not quite never but rarely, Some panels have multi barreled lugs for
use as the main lugs and there are kits available from some
manufacturers that will add such lugs to an existing panel. These
allow you to run service entry tap conductors from one main lug to
another. Additionally some panel cabinets have sufficient room to
house separate lugs, split bolt taps, and so forth. Were the panel
cabinet has enough room you can avoid the need to install a trough.

--
Tom Horne