On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew nothing
about checking the anode until reading these messages, so I'll do that ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours at
an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water heaters
typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a 25-yr warranty
unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we moved in
5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had only a
6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew nothing about
checking the anode until reading these messages, so I'll do that ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water pressure.
What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours at an outdoor
spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a professional?
Typical cost?

If you can do routine plumbing, doing it yourself is not a big deal.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew
nothing about checking the anode until reading these messages, so
I'll do that ASAP.
And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours
at an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?


No, you can do it. There are devices to make the job easier.

For example, instead of direct connections to the heater, you can use
sooper-strong, steel-braided hoses. This greatly minimizes the effort
required to get the heater connected. Same with the gas line.

All in all, there are two water connections, one gas connection, and one
blowout-valve connection.

With the money you save on installation labor, you can get a better quality
product, buy a couple of wrenches you might need, the aforementioned hoses,
and still have enough left for a two-week vacation in Monaco.

On 11/18/08 05:59 pm I wrote:

On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew nothing
about checking the anode until reading these messages, so I'll do that
ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours at
an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?


I've seen people giving good reports of A O Smith units. I understand
that Sears/Kenmore water heaters are made by A O Smith, so any reason to
avoid Kenmore if the price is right? -- and install it myself.

Perce

On Nov 18, 11:43�pm, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:
On 11/18/08 05:59 pm I wrote:





On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew nothing
about checking the anode until reading these messages, so I'll do that
ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours at
an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?

I've seen people giving good reports of A O Smith units. I understand
that Sears/Kenmore water heaters are made by A O Smith, so any reason to
avoid Kenmore if the price is right? -- and install it myself.

Perce- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

home depot has better prices than sears, kenmore is just a marketing
name. sears says we want a hot water tank, stove fridge with these
features, and the manufacturer says heres the price.

sears sold the craftsman name, they are now just a licensee, kenmore
name is on the auction block, sears sold off everything non retail,
and is starved for cash because of the economic dump. they may not
survive

On Nov 18, 9:22*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew
nothing about checking the anode until reading these messages, so
I'll do that ASAP.
And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours
at an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?

No, you can do it. There are devices to make the job easier.

For example, instead of direct connections to the heater, you can use
sooper-strong, steel-braided hoses. This greatly minimizes the effort
required to get the heater connected. Same with the gas line.

All in all, there are two water connections, one gas connection, and one
blowout-valve connection.

With the money you save on installation labor, you can get a better quality
product, buy a couple of wrenches you might need, the aforementioned hoses,
and still have enough left for a two-week vacation in Monaco.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd check the code in your area first - assuming you care about being
compliant.

My grandmother had a stove replaced in her apartment in Massachusetts
and had to pay extra to have it "hard-piped" because the flex pipes
were no longer code. It may have been an local apartment-code thing, I
can't say.

I will say that I have never seen a water heater installed with flex
hoses (for the gas *or* water) but my experience doesn't mean it's not
legal.

I sent this before, but I don't see it:

On 11/18/08 11:43 pm I wrote:

I've seen people giving good reports of A O Smith units. I understand
that Sears/Kenmore water heaters are made by A O Smith, so any reason to
avoid Kenmore if the price is right? -- and install it myself.

I've been reading various installation/operation manuals online and see
that the pipe from the T&P valve should go to a floor drain. We don't
have a floor drain in the basement utility room where the water heater
and HVAC is located; the present overflow pipe has a bucket under it.
The sump (with pump) is two rooms away. There is a wimpy little pump
that pumps the a/c condensate to the sump via a skinny plastic tube that
runs up and above the suspended ceiling.

Any recommendations?

Perce

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 18, 9:22 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew
nothing about checking the anode until reading these messages, so
I'll do that ASAP.
And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked
ours at an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?

No, you can do it. There are devices to make the job easier.

For example, instead of direct connections to the heater, you can use
sooper-strong, steel-braided hoses. This greatly minimizes the effort
required to get the heater connected. Same with the gas line.

All in all, there are two water connections, one gas connection, and
one blowout-valve connection.

With the money you save on installation labor, you can get a better
quality product, buy a couple of wrenches you might need, the
aforementioned hoses,
and still have enough left for a two-week vacation in Monaco.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd check the code in your area first - assuming you care about being
compliant.

My grandmother had a stove replaced in her apartment in Massachusetts
and had to pay extra to have it "hard-piped" because the flex pipes
were no longer code. It may have been an local apartment-code thing, I
can't say.

I will say that I have never seen a water heater installed with flex
hoses (for the gas *or* water) but my experience doesn't mean it's not
legal.

Good point. I'm in Houston. We don't even have zoning, let alone code
requirements for anything done within (or attached to) the four walls. For
example, a couple of years ago, my son and I replaced the 200-Amp
service/breaker box. That worked so well - hardly any smoke - that we
repeated the project at his house.

I did check with the city - no permits or inspections required.

Anyway, you're right. If one lives under a pokenose local government, it's
best to check with the factotums first. Else one could end up in the Gulag.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I sent this before, but I don't see it:

On 11/18/08 11:43 pm I wrote:

I've seen people giving good reports of A O Smith units. I understand
that Sears/Kenmore water heaters are made by A O Smith, so any
reason to avoid Kenmore if the price is right? -- and install it
myself.

I've been reading various installation/operation manuals online and
see that the pipe from the T&P valve should go to a floor drain. We
don't have a floor drain in the basement utility room where the water
heater and HVAC is located; the present overflow pipe has a bucket
under it. The sump (with pump) is two rooms away. There is a wimpy
little pump that pumps the a/c condensate to the sump via a skinny
plastic tube that runs up and above the suspended ceiling.

Any recommendations?


An alternative configuration is to run the output of the T&P valve up into
the attic, across, and out the soffit.

You don't want to be around the output of the sucker when it blows.

Bob F wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK
As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water heaters
typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a 25-yr warranty
unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we moved in
5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had only a
6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew nothing about
checking the anode until reading these messages, so I'll do that ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water pressure.
What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours at an outdoor
spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a professional?
Typical cost?

If you can do routine plumbing, doing it yourself is not a big deal.



Some building codes require pressure regulators. I think the default
setting is 50 PSI. Some codes require valves to keep water from the
house from flowing back into the mains. In this case, an expansion tank
can protect a water heater by reducing peak pressure.

According to the University of Illinois, water heaters last 13 years on
average. Since many last only 6 or 8, many must last a lot longer. One
plumber says they can easily last 20 years if routinely flushed.

I get a white bucket and connect a length of garden hose to the drain
valve at the bottom of the water heater. I shut off the water heater
and its cold-water supply. Then I put the end of the hose into the
bucket and open the drain valve.

There are two reasons I shut off the cold-water supply. First, I don't
want a mess if I have trouble with the drain valve. Second, shutting
off the supply valve occasionally can keep it in working order.

I turn on the supply valve to flush water from the bottom of the tank
into the bucket. If it's not running clean by the time the bucket is
full, I dump it and flush again. If it had much rust I'd replace the
tank's anode.

Some modern water heaters don't need flushing.

Where water is hard, a water softener can make a water heater last longer.

The last time I replaced a water heater, I had to call a plumber because
I didn't have a crimper or expertise for working with polybutylene pipe.
He charged $100 to make a couple of connections. He was
disappointed that I'd already bought the new water heater. Records show
that he was the one who installed polybutylene in this house, and it was
after widespread problems had come to light. I'm glad I didn't have him
supply the new water heater.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

I will say that I have never seen a water heater installed with flex
hoses (for the gas *or* water) but my experience doesn't mean it's not
legal.

Evidently you haven't been in areas subject to seismic activity.
Flexible connectors are *required*.

on 11/19/2008 11:50 PM Bob said the following:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I will say that I have never seen a water heater installed with flex
hoses (for the gas *or* water) but my experience doesn't mean it's not
legal.

Evidently you haven't been in areas subject to seismic activity.
Flexible connectors are *required*.

Also required by some jurisdictions whether or not earthquakes are a
problem, like where I live. A moisture trap is also required in the line.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

E Z Peaces wrote:

Bob F wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...

On 11/18/08 11:35 am wrote:

DONT MESS WITH ANODE ON SUCH A OLD TANK, IT CAN CAUSE LEAK

As a first-time homeowner in the USA, I had not realized that water
heaters typically have such a short life. My home in Australia had a
25-yr warranty unit.

Here we have a Ruud gas water heater which looked new enough when we
moved in 5 years ago that I thought no more of it.

Now you have me worried. I looked up this unit and found that it had
only a 6-year warranty which expired 6 years ago already. I knew
nothing about checking the anode until reading these messages, so
I'll do that ASAP.

And I see that manufacturers state that life is related to water
pressure. What is considered reasonable? The last time I checked ours
at an outdoor spigot it showed 80psi.

I assume that a new one is going to have to be installed by a
professional? Typical cost?


If you can do routine plumbing, doing it yourself is not a big deal.



Some building codes require pressure regulators. I think the default
setting is 50 PSI. Some codes require valves to keep water from the
house from flowing back into the mains. In this case, an expansion tank
can protect a water heater by reducing peak pressure.

According to the University of Illinois, water heaters last 13 years on
average. Since many last only 6 or 8, many must last a lot longer. One
plumber says they can easily last 20 years if routinely flushed.

I get a white bucket and connect a length of garden hose to the drain
valve at the bottom of the water heater. I shut off the water heater
and its cold-water supply. Then I put the end of the hose into the
bucket and open the drain valve.

There are two reasons I shut off the cold-water supply. First, I don't
want a mess if I have trouble with the drain valve. Second, shutting
off the supply valve occasionally can keep it in working order.

I turn on the supply valve to flush water from the bottom of the tank
into the bucket. If it's not running clean by the time the bucket is
full, I dump it and flush again. If it had much rust I'd replace the
tank's anode.

Some modern water heaters don't need flushing.

Where water is hard, a water softener can make a water heater last longer.

The last time I replaced a water heater, I had to call a plumber because
I didn't have a crimper or expertise for working with polybutylene pipe.
He charged $100 to make a couple of connections. He was disappointed
that I'd already bought the new water heater. Records show that he was
the one who installed polybutylene in this house, and it was after
widespread problems had come to light. I'm glad I didn't have him
supply the new water heater.

Your plumber did nothing wrong by installing polybutylene pipe. The
massive problems with polybutylene was because of improper installation,
not defective material. Many plumbers first action was to throw away
the installation instructions...they knew every thing already. Improper
assembly and crimping of the connectors was the problem.

I continue to use polybutylene in my home and have NO problems...but I
did take time to read and understand the instructions that came with the
connectors and crimper.

You may have one of the brighter plumbers.

Boden

On 11/19/08 10:38 am HeyBub wrote:

I've been reading various installation/operation manuals online and
see that the pipe from the T&P valve should go to a floor drain. We
don't have a floor drain in the basement utility room where the water
heater and HVAC is located; the present overflow pipe has a bucket
under it. The sump (with pump) is two rooms away. There is a wimpy
little pump that pumps the a/c condensate to the sump via a skinny
plastic tube that runs up and above the suspended ceiling.

An alternative configuration is to run the output of the T&P valve up into
the attic, across, and out the soffit.

You don't want to be around the output of the sucker when it blows.

People tell me that that would be a code violation:: T&P valve must not
discharge uphill.

Perce

On Nov 20, 1:50*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 11/19/08 10:38 am HeyBub wrote:

I've been reading various installation/operation manuals online and
see that the pipe from the T&P valve should go to a floor drain. We
don't have a floor drain in the basement utility room where the water
heater and HVAC is located; the present overflow pipe has a bucket
under it. The sump (with pump) is two rooms away. There is a wimpy
little pump that pumps the a/c condensate to the sump via a skinny
plastic tube that runs up and above the suspended ceiling.
An alternative configuration is to run the output of the T&P valve up into
the attic, across, and out the soffit.

You don't want to be around the output of the sucker when it blows.

People tell me that that would be a code violation:: T&P valve must not
discharge uphill.

Perce

That's true. There's also a limit to the number of bends in that
line. Mine are dumping on the floor for that reason as well, although
I have thought about just ignoring the code and piping them into the
deep sink. (I could do it easily; just not without having too many
bends.) I have a small catch container under each one; if I see any
moisture in one I will replace T&P valve immediately.

nate

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 11/19/08 10:38 am HeyBub wrote:

I've been reading various installation/operation manuals online and
see that the pipe from the T&P valve should go to a floor drain. We
don't have a floor drain in the basement utility room where the
water heater and HVAC is located; the present overflow pipe has a
bucket under it. The sump (with pump) is two rooms away. There is a
wimpy little pump that pumps the a/c condensate to the sump via a
skinny plastic tube that runs up and above the suspended ceiling.

An alternative configuration is to run the output of the T&P valve
up into the attic, across, and out the soffit.

You don't want to be around the output of the sucker when it blows.

People tell me that that would be a code violation:: T&P valve must
not discharge uphill.


Hmm. Both of mine (I have a duplex) go up and over, then back down inside
the brick veneer. There is an exhaust pipe about 1' above the ground (with
an elbow pointing down).

Your observation does, however, make sense in that any water trapped in the
pipe may linger around the valve causing corrosion.

Boden wrote:
E Z Peaces wrote:

The last time I replaced a water heater, I had to call a plumber
because I didn't have a crimper or expertise for working with
polybutylene pipe. He charged $100 to make a couple of
connections. He was disappointed that I'd already bought the new
water heater. Records show that he was the one who installed
polybutylene in this house, and it was after widespread problems had
come to light. I'm glad I didn't have him supply the new water heater.

Your plumber did nothing wrong by installing polybutylene pipe. The
massive problems with polybutylene was because of improper installation,
not defective material. Many plumbers first action was to throw away
the installation instructions...they knew every thing already. Improper
assembly and crimping of the connectors was the problem.

I continue to use polybutylene in my home and have NO problems...but I
did take time to read and understand the instructions that came with the
connectors and crimper.

You may have one of the brighter plumbers.

Boden

I didn't say he wasn't smart. Every customer with PB has to call him
for every repair because he's the one with the crimpers. Cash cow.

Shell was sued for faulty materials and installation. With a billion
dollars at stake, why didn't they demonstrate that plumbers had failed
to follow instructions?

Why haven't other countries had problems? Is it only in America that
some plumbers don't follow instructions? Why does the Plumbing Claims
Group insist that PB is reliable yet use only C-PVC?

The PB manufacturers group hired HDR Engineering of Bellevue WA to see
if chlorine compounds found in drinking water attack the plastics used
in PB fittings. Steve Reiber of HDR says yes.

Plumbing contractor Tom Sagau defends PB. He says the problem is that
crimpers must constantly be calibrated because if a crimp is too tight,
the pipe will split later. So the customer has a time bomb if the
plumber makes a small error.

Wayne Bryant, a marketing representative for the Plumbers & Steamfitters
Local 741, says they had their doubts about PB in the 1970s and they
still do. He says it's buyer beware.

wrote:

On Nov 18, 11:43�pm, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

I've seen people giving good reports of A O Smith units. I understand
that Sears/Kenmore water heaters are made by A O Smith, so any reason to
avoid Kenmore if the price is right? -- and install it myself.

home depot has better prices than sears, kenmore is just a marketing
name. sears says we want a hot water tank, stove fridge with these
features, and the manufacturer says heres the price.

A couple of years ago, we had to replace our 66-gal. electric, and the
cheapest source was Sears., $380, or at least $50 cheaper than Lowe's
and Home Depot, neither which had the product in stock.

"larry moe 'n curly" wrote in message

A couple of years ago, we had to replace our 66-gal. electric, and the
cheapest source was Sears., $380, or at least $50 cheaper than Lowe's
and Home Depot, neither which had the product in stock.

*********************************************

I wonder what a real plumbing supply would have charged.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"larry moe 'n curly" wrote in message

A couple of years ago, we had to replace our 66-gal. electric, and the
cheapest source was Sears., $380, or at least $50 cheaper than Lowe's
and Home Depot, neither which had the product in stock.

*********************************************

I wonder what a real plumbing supply would have charged.



until they're open sometime when I can get to their counter, I'll never
know. That's probably a big reason why the Big Boxes are so successful,
as awful as they are.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

until they're open sometime when I can get to their counter, I'll never
know. That's probably a big reason why the Big Boxes are so successful,
as awful as they are.

nate

Point taken. but . . . . . . . . When I needed a circulator, the big box
stores were $65. Supply New England was $42. I was able to wait.