A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Anyone tried this?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon wrote:

A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Bags of leaves do have insulating value, however they have even greater
vermin factor and by spring you'll probably have a full infestation.

On Nov 9, 6:38*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Anyone tried this?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

Can you say serious fire hazard? Decomposition generally requires
moisture and they are not going to get much moisture under the
trailer. Instead they will dry out even more and become a real fire
hazard.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as
insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are
fairly
dry.

Anyone tried this?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


I have used them in a fall garden with great results.

I would be very skeptical of using them around a home or mobile home for the
same reasons others have posted.

Colbyt

Pete C. wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Bags of leaves do have insulating value, however they have even greater
vermin factor and by spring you'll probably have a full infestation.
Not to mention the hilarity that will ensue when a passing breeze blows
a hot coal from the grill, or a lit cigarette butt, in amongst the bags.
Paper bags of dry leaves are what we used to use to start the grill fire
at the lake lot we had when I was a kid.

Having said that, I have seen people use hay bales, outside the
skirting, as a winter windbreak. I wouldn't rate that as much less risky
than bagged leaves.

They sell faced foamboard used for insulating the outside of the
exposed foundation real houses. A layer of that, well sealed together,
on the the skirting, would probably do more good, and be less prone to
become kindling. A row of dry concrete blocks on the ground provides a
good place the tie the bottom of the skirting down, so it doesn't flap
around.

I take it this is an older trailer, and gets a little breezy inside at
times? Plastic on the windows usually helps, as does caulk and/or a few
cans of Great Stuff foam around all penetrations of the outside
envelope. Any way to rig a windbreak on the side the prevailing wind
comes from? Only so much you can do to insulate a 3" wall. A tin box is
a tin box, etc.

--
aem sends...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as
insulation. Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that
the leaves will decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when
the leaves are fairly dry.

Anyone tried this?


Hello, pharmacy? Do you have condoms that will fit over a trailer?



================================================== ========
Subject: rebar protrusion problem
From: "Stormin Mormon"
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair

Hello, pharmacy? I'd like a pair of eye condoms.....

On Nov 9, 6:38*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Anyone tried this?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

The bags might settle to quickly to work, but its free

"ransley" wrote in message

The bags might settle to quickly to work, but its free


I hope he takes photos of the fire too. It will be spectacular.

On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:38:33 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are fairly
dry.

Anyone tried this?

You're a ****ing idiot Stormy. I am the real ftwhd and I approve this
message.

Thanks for a good laugh. You're right, a vapor barrier would be a good idea.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Red Green" wrote in message
...

Hello, pharmacy? Do you have condoms that will fit over a trailer?



================================================== ========
Subject: rebar protrusion problem
From: "Stormin Mormon"
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair

Hello, pharmacy? I'd like a pair of eye condoms.....

Thanks, Mike. Oh, Goober says hey!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


ftwhd wrote in message ...

You're a ****ing idiot Stormy. I am the real ftwhd and I approve this
message.

There was an old man in a trailer
Who was once Navy man and a sailor
He went and Asked on usenet of the nation
A problem it was not much the tempation
And now, he has a trailer
Full of insectious infestation!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Stormin Mormon wrote:

A friend of mine asked if it's practical to use bagged leaves as
insulation.
Under a trailer "mobile home". My first thought is that the leaves will
decompose, and make a mess. He says to catch them when the leaves are
fairly
dry.

Bags of leaves do have insulating value, however they have even greater
vermin factor and by spring you'll probably have a full infestation.

If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the fire.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"BobR" wrote in message
...


Can you say serious fire hazard? Decomposition generally requires
moisture and they are not going to get much moisture under the
trailer. Instead they will dry out even more and become a real fire
hazard.

Increased fire load, not a good thing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...


I have used them in a fall garden with great results.

I would be very skeptical of using them around a home or mobile home for the
same reasons others have posted.

Colbyt

I'll have to make him a sign "tin box, sweet tin box" and put a decorator
border on it.

Two years ago, a couple fellows from church helped me blow cellulose into
the ceiling of my trailer. That was a major benefit. I've suggested the
ceiling cellulose to him.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"aemeijers" wrote in message
...

Bags of leaves do have insulating value, however they have even greater
vermin factor and by spring you'll probably have a full infestation.

Not to mention the hilarity that will ensue when a passing breeze blows
a hot coal from the grill, or a lit cigarette butt, in amongst the bags.
Paper bags of dry leaves are what we used to use to start the grill fire
at the lake lot we had when I was a kid.

Having said that, I have seen people use hay bales, outside the
skirting, as a winter windbreak. I wouldn't rate that as much less risky
than bagged leaves.

They sell faced foamboard used for insulating the outside of the
exposed foundation real houses. A layer of that, well sealed together,
on the the skirting, would probably do more good, and be less prone to
become kindling. A row of dry concrete blocks on the ground provides a
good place the tie the bottom of the skirting down, so it doesn't flap
around.

I take it this is an older trailer, and gets a little breezy inside at
times? Plastic on the windows usually helps, as does caulk and/or a few
cans of Great Stuff foam around all penetrations of the outside
envelope. Any way to rig a windbreak on the side the prevailing wind
comes from? Only so much you can do to insulate a 3" wall. A tin box is
a tin box, etc.

--
aem sends...

In article , Stormin Mormon wrote:

If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the fire.

Person tossing a cigarette (I have seen fires start from that)
Person tossing a cigarette just before the windstorm begins to kick in
Intoxicated person tossing a cigarette
Child playing with a magnifying glass and sunlight and
UH-OH THE WIND BLEW MY BURNING LEAF INTO THE LEAFPILE UNDER HIS TRAILER
Fireworks experiencing Murphy's Law on New Year's Eve
Someone fires a bottle rocket on Veterans Day and the rocket goes wayward
3-year-old runs outside with mommy's matches/lighter
Lightning strikes neighbor's antenna and a glob of molten metal hits
the leafpile
Neighbor has a fire with embers blowing in the wind
Neighbor has something explode
Drunken motocyclist wipes out and wires on the motorcycle short and
spark, possibly with some gasoline spillage
Tornado or severe thunderstorm gust or a cold front gust blows a burning
object under the trailer (Check out month-by-month historical tornado
data and severe thunderstorm data for your state - chances are the
numbers for November are not zero.)
Neighbor's charcoal barnecue or outdoor lightbulb gets hit by a wayward
baseball, soccerball, football, or model airplane or drunk motorcyclist
or drunk cyclist or kid going too fast on his first day of having a
bicycle

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'll have to make him a sign "tin box, sweet tin box" and put a decorator
border on it.

Two years ago, a couple fellows from church helped me blow cellulose into
the ceiling of my trailer. That was a major benefit. I've suggested the
ceiling cellulose to him.

Cellulose sounds flammable to me. I wonder how that affects fire risk -
electric lights don't have an absolutely perfect safety record, even when
UL listed. Some don't handle insulation well. Some have poorly
determined ratings for maximum wattage of bulb to put in - I did once see
a UL listed lamp with the specified maximum wattage incandescent bulb
experience charring wire insulation because the rating was determined
poorly. The UL certification could even have been counterfeit.
I have also seen a fluorescent lamp ballast burn up with flames
(actually result thereof) by being unable to handle a foreseeable failure
mode (starter "got stuck" after trying repeatedly to start a dead lamp).
Apparently, the manufacturer had samples barely pass UL testing and I have
heard someone suggest to me that production units could have been slightly
chintzier than the units that UL approved. I do not expect such
barely-passing and corner-cutting to be limited to fluorescent lamps.

How about fiberglass or rockwool?

- Don Klipstein )

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'll have to make him a sign "tin box, sweet tin box" and put a decorator
border on it.

Two years ago, a couple fellows from church helped me blow cellulose into
the ceiling of my trailer. That was a major benefit. I've suggested the
ceiling cellulose to him.

Cellulose sounds flammable to me.

The cellulose insulation product they sell is soaked with a sodium
borate solution so it meets flame spread requirements.


I wonder how that affects fire risk -
electric lights don't have an absolutely perfect safety record, even when
UL listed. Some don't handle insulation well. Some have poorly
determined ratings for maximum wattage of bulb to put in - I did once see
a UL listed lamp with the specified maximum wattage incandescent bulb
experience charring wire insulation because the rating was determined
poorly. The UL certification could even have been counterfeit.

My buddy got carried away and had a huge amount of cellulose blown into
his attic and then lost a bunch of recessed light fixtures. Luckily
there was never a fire. Lamp bases melted and leads fell off etc.


I have also seen a fluorescent lamp ballast burn up with flames
(actually result thereof) by being unable to handle a foreseeable failure
mode (starter "got stuck" after trying repeatedly to start a dead lamp).
Apparently, the manufacturer had samples barely pass UL testing and I have
heard someone suggest to me that production units could have been slightly
chintzier than the units that UL approved. I do not expect such
barely-passing and corner-cutting to be limited to fluorescent lamps.

How about fiberglass or rockwool?

- Don Klipstein )

On Nov 10, 3:18*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the fire..

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in trailers. They
think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with sliding
glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture

HeyBub wrote:
BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in trailers. They
think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with sliding
glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture


Ya know, that sounds kinda like a frat house at Auburn University.

TDD

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in trailers.
They think outside the box.


Don't you mean inside a box? I'm not knocking trailers. I lived in one when
I was in my 20's. I would never use leaves as insulation. I though this
thread was a joke.

Olddog

The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in
trailers. They think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with
sliding glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture

Ya know, that sounds kinda like a frat house at Auburn University.

TDD
Oh, I dunno. I live alone, so on a regular basis the last tomato or two
in the pack gets mushy before I manage to eat it. Rather than see it go
to waste, I open the slider off the kitchen, and set it on the edge of
the deck. Something usually eats it within a day....

--
aem sends...

aemeijers wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in
trailers. They think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with
sliding glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture

Ya know, that sounds kinda like a frat house at Auburn University.

TDD
Oh, I dunno. I live alone, so on a regular basis the last tomato or two
in the pack gets mushy before I manage to eat it. Rather than see it go
to waste, I open the slider off the kitchen, and set it on the edge of
the deck. Something usually eats it within a day....

--
aem sends...

I assume you're a bachelor, we have strange habits.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of possible
ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to add to the
fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about fire
because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have spread the
fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a couple of rains
and if they did catch fire they would have burned very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without thinking
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in
trailers. They think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with
sliding glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture

Ya know, that sounds kinda like a frat house at Auburn University.

TDD
Oh, I dunno. I live alone, so on a regular basis the last tomato or
two in the pack gets mushy before I manage to eat it. Rather than see
it go to waste, I open the slider off the kitchen, and set it on the
edge of the deck. Something usually eats it within a day....

--
aem sends...

I assume you're a bachelor, we have strange habits.

TDD
If the little woodland creatures didn't come visit me, I wouldn't get
any visitors at all. Better in their bellies than in the landfill. I
don't garden, so a compost pile is pointless. (aside from the annual
multi-ton leaf pile against the fenceline out back, but that is so I
don't have to bag or burn.)
--
aem sends...

aemeijers wrote:
If the little woodland creatures didn't come visit me, I wouldn't get
any visitors at all. Better in their bellies than in the landfill. I
don't garden, so a compost pile is pointless. (aside from the annual
multi-ton leaf pile against the fenceline out back, but that is so I
don't have to bag or burn.)

Next time you're in the city, prowl around behind apartments to find a
three-sided aquarium, usually next to the dumpster. Take it home.

Line the three sides with reflective film. Fashion a lid from scrap wood. It
is now a bird feeder.

Install your new bird feeder in the window next to your breakfast table. As
you have your morning coffee, sprinkle some bird seed - or crunchy bits of
your waffle - in the feeder and enjoy the birdies sharing your breakfast.

retired54 wrote:

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in
trailers. They think outside the box.


Don't you mean inside a box? I'm not knocking trailers. I lived in
one when I was in my 20's. I would never use leaves as insulation. I
though this thread was a joke.



People who live in trailers are, by an large, frugal.

This whole thread started with the observation that leaves don't grow on
trees.

A termite walks into a bar and asks "is the bar tender, here?"

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"BobR" wrote in message
...
could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a tender box to
begin with.

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

BobR wrote:
On Nov 10, 3:18 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If there were some source of fire. Which, not much source of
possible ignition under a trailer. It's still more combustibles to
add to the fire.

I have used the leaves from my trees to insulate my landscape plants
for many many years and never once had a fire. Then again, that was
in Houston where the leaves were almost always kept damp from rain or
sprinkler system. They were great for protecting my semi-tropical
plants from the occasional freeze. I didn't worry too much about
fire because they were against brick or stone and couldn't have
spread the fire very well. They also tended to pack down after a
couple of rains and if they did catch fire they would have burned
very slowly.

That is far different from being under the shelter of a trailer where
they would continue to dry out. The big question that must always be
asked is rather the value to be gained is worth the risk that one
would incurr. A careless cigarette thrown by someone without
thinking could be all that would be needed. Those trailers are a
tender box to begin with.

You may be discounting the mindset of those who often live in
trailers. They think outside the box.

* Broken toilets used as planters
* Cars on blocks so the hounds can get out of the heat
* Old TV antennas used as clotheslines
* Garbage disposal is a 2x2 foot opening in the wall covered with
sliding glass portal, usually above the kitchen sink.
* Milk-crate yard furniture



Come on HeyBub. How about a little balance on trailer residents. There
are many fine small businesses run from trailers. Here's a fellow on a
conference call for instance:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zvfi3b&s=4

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

aemeijers wrote:
If the little woodland creatures didn't come visit me, I wouldn't get
any visitors at all. Better in their bellies than in the landfill. I
don't garden, so a compost pile is pointless. (aside from the annual
multi-ton leaf pile against the fenceline out back, but that is so I
don't have to bag or burn.)

Next time you're in the city, prowl around behind apartments to find a
three-sided aquarium, usually next to the dumpster. Take it home.

Line the three sides with reflective film. Fashion a lid from scrap
wood. It is now a bird feeder.

Install your new bird feeder in the window next to your breakfast
table. As you have your morning coffee, sprinkle some bird seed - or
crunchy bits of your waffle - in the feeder and enjoy the birdies
sharing your breakfast.



....being concious of where previous meals will land and pile up while
they are chowing.