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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 00:13:53 -0700, samueltilden wrote:

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one faucet
(for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the legislature
mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and somebody else
is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when the
other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or simply
ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a strong
preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to see
this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.


Don't know your state, but other locations don't have that restrictions
as far as I can discover from a quick Internet search. Several Plumbing
supply houses on Internet still sell 3 handle tub faucets just fine from
in-house stock.

You are just remodeling, not new construction on a new bathroom so I
don't see why you don't qualify for grandfather clause.

By the way, a scald guard can be place in the copper line going from the
diverter valve to the shower head. It is a just one more thing to fail
in the future so you have to take out some drywall.

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

The BEST upgrade we have made here for YEARS is the delta single
handle temp and seperate handlew for flow valve. not only does it
prevent scalds but it allows any flow from weak to powerful.

the lack of flow control is why ii hated single handled valves.

this solved that plus the valve has a lifetime parts guarantee.

american standard moved production overseas, and the replacement parts
for my old faucet werent very good.......

lastly at home resale time the buyer will want a discount, and look at
your home as a fixer upper...

your better off replacing the valve.........


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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?


wrote in message
...
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.



Call up the plumbing inspector in town and ask him. I heard that the single
handled models are required to keep people from getting scalded. There are
adjustments to control the flow of hot and cold water.

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Sep 8, 7:44�am, " wrote:
The BEST upgrade we have made here for YEARS is the delta single
handle temp and seperate handlew for flow valve. not only does it
prevent scalds but it allows any flow from weak to powerful.

the lack of flow control is why ii hated single handled valves.

this solved that plus the valve has a lifetime parts guarantee.

american standard moved production overseas, and the replacement parts
for my old faucet werent very good.......

lastly at home resale time the buyer will want a discount, and look at
your home as a fixer upper...

your better off replacing the valve.........


the delta actually has 2 knobs one large handle for flow, and a
smaller temperature adjust one.

its nice no longer having to adjust tempoerature since the faucet
remembers the prevbious setting
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Default -google_groups- Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.



Anti scald has been a requirement for some time. If you look at how they
do it it is really simple to do implement in a single handle valve.

Also if there are older folks or young children or even a sleepy you it
is impossible to blast yourself with hot water turning on a single
handle faucet.

I wouldn't have anything but single handle faucets anywhere in the
house. The are just so much easier to use.


Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?


wrote in message
...
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower.


Where in the world you are living, have you check at lows and home depo.
Tony


They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.



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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one


Wow; either you're trolling or need a new plumbing company.




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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?


"Blattus Slafaly" wrote in message
...
wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.


I'd tell the legislature to go pound sand. I hate single controls for
showers, You can't control the pressure or volume. It's both wide open
all the time. Only a **** head would invent something like that.

--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 7/8


What kind of single control are you using? My 30 year old cheapo Delta lets
me control both pressure and volume, and I can control the water temp with
it too! I have a double faucet shower in my basement 'mudroom' and I'll
have to say I like the single better. I like LOTS of water (pressure and
volume) and when I want to turn the temp down I invariably find that which
ever one I turn is all ready at the max - turn the hot down and it was
already nearly off. Turn the cold up and it was already at the max. Single
control lets me turn the one knob and get the desired results....

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Default -google_groups- Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

In article ,
George wrote:
wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.



Anti scald has been a requirement for some time. If you look at how they
do it it is really simple to do implement in a single handle valve.

Also if there are older folks or young children or even a sleepy you it
is impossible to blast yourself with hot water turning on a single
handle faucet.

I wouldn't have anything but single handle faucets anywhere in the
house. The are just so much easier to use.

Suppose you're the 5th person taking a shower that morning,
and the hot water from the heater is only luke-warm.

Does the mechanism allow you to turn it to 100% from the
hot-pipe?


Or, suppose you want to fill a bucket with 100% really-hot
water, and you want to get the water from the shower.
Perhaps the protect-the-human faucet will impede you from
doing that?


David

PS: yes, with low pressure, a flushed toilet can be
a hot experience indeed.

Although with a regular toilet, with a tank, just
how much water per minute is coming in

Now, those powerful pressure-flush toilets (admitting that
I have no idea how they work), being on the same
cold-water-line as that could sure get someone
burned while in the shower!


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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

replying to samueltilden, mcadchri wrote:
samueltilden wrote:

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.
Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"
Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.
Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?
If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.
P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?
Thanks.




In some states two-handle faucets have been made illegal according to the
published uniform plumbing code of that state. Each state produces their
own uniform plumbing code. By illegal, it means that a licensed plumbing
professional can NOT install this device for risk of his license being
revoked by the state, in essence ruining his business and/or livelihood.
Any existing two-handle is grandfathered in if it existed prior to the
code being written. However, if the valve goes bad and needs to be
replaced, it MUST be replaced with a pressure balanced single handle
valve. The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.

Hope this helps!

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

replying to gfretwell , mcadchri wrote:
gfretwell wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 15:44:02 +0000, mcadchri
This is the code text (IRC as adopted in Florida)
P2708.3 Shower control valves.
Individual shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be equipped
with control valves of the pressure-balance, thermostatic-mixing or
combination pressure-balance/thermostatic-mixing valve types with a
high limit stop in accordance with ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. The high
limit stop shall be set to limit water temperature to a maximum of
120°F (49°C). In-line thermostatic valves shall not be used for
compliance with this section.

Whether that means you actually have to use a "combination valve" is
open to conjecture but most AHJs seem to think that is what it says




Very interesting. I've been investigating this topic all morning because
we had a client who refused to change and just wants an unlicensed
handyman to do it. What more I'm finding out is that this is actually
nationwide, not state by state. It's related to (as you said) ASSE 1016,
which is the Scald Prevention measure. The Mass. Plumbing Code lists it as
follows:
Shower Controls.
When a flow control valve or shower head is designed to completely
shut-off and is installed on the outlet pipe from a shower control unit,
check valves shall be provided in the hot and cold water supplies to the
unit to prevent by-passing of hot or cold water. An exception to the
requirement above is when Product-approved shower control units are
designed to prevent bypassing.
1. All showers, shower stalls, shower compartments, gang showers, and
shower baths, either multiple or single, shall be equipped with an
approved adjustable self-cleaning and draining shower head.
2. The water supply to a shower head shall be supplied through a
Product-approved individual thermostatic, pressure balancing or
combination thermostatic/pressure balancing valve complying with ASSE
1016. The device shall conform to the following requirements:
the device shall incorporate a design that limits the maximum deliverable
temperature of hot water to 112EF; and
the device shall be designed to prevent bypassing of water.
http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/d...000.html#10.10
According to #2 of the previous there is not much room for conjecture as
it states "shall be supplied through."
The Uniform Plumbing Code book, ISSN 0733-2335, states in section 420.0 -
SHOWER AND TUB/SHOWER COMBINATION CONTROL VALVES: "Showers and tub/shower
combinations in all buildings shall be provided with individual control
valves of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Gang
showers, when supplied with a single temperature controlled water supply
pipe, may be controlled by a master thermostatic mixing valve in lieu of
individually controlled pressure balance or thermostatic mixing valves
(pg. 30-31)."
Again this removes any conjecture form the conversation as these are the
regulations set by the regulatory agency that licenses plumbing
professionals. Any deviation from said regulations could be cause for
termination of professional license.


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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On 9/6/2013 11:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:


The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.
Hope this helps!


Do you have evidence of this? I've never heard of a claim being denied
because of a DIY install. I've never heard of an insurance company
asking for information about an installer.

If the valve bursts, it is a manufacturer's defect, not a problem with
the installer anyway but the warranty excluded paying for damages, thus,
your insurance will cover. If it is a faulty install, you will be paid.



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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Friday, September 6, 2013 1:14:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/6/2013 11:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:





The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual


(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you


are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.


If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and


the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,


ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of


pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device


was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.


Hope this helps!






Do you have evidence of this? I've never heard of a claim being denied

because of a DIY install. I've never heard of an insurance company

asking for information about an installer.



+1

Frequently claimed here, but I've yet to see one example of
an insurance company doing it. And he's also wrong on another
aspect. There is absolutely nothing preventing people in most
parts of the country from doing repairs in their own home
themselves without being licensed. You are frequently required to get
a permit, depending on what you are doing. But even here in the
Peoples Republic of NJ, you can do work on your own home, without
being licensed.



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replying to , mcadchri wrote:
trader4 wrote:

+1
Frequently claimed here, but I've yet to see one example of
an insurance company doing it. And he's also wrong on another
aspect. There is absolutely nothing preventing people in most
parts of the country from doing repairs in their own home
themselves without being licensed. You are frequently required to get
a permit, depending on what you are doing. But even here in the
Peoples Republic of NJ, you can do work on your own home, without
being licensed.




I'm going to try and reply to the previous two comments in this section
here so bear with me. As far as evidence is concerned, only what you learn
from speaking with customers and adjusters on the job. You're more than
welcome to try to read through the hundreds of pages of legal jargon in
your homeowner's insurance policy manual to find the specifics, but I'll
pass. We all do know though that when a large claim is made an adjuster
comes out to do an investigation (or the insurance company sends a
licensed professional on their behalf). This is to find out what caused
the leak (in this example of a shower valve leak). If they conclude that
the valve body itself is the cause of the leak, then of course they will
pay because this is what the insurance is for. However, if it is
determined that one of the sweats (copper + silver + copper fusions
linking the valve body to the pipe) is at fault for the cause of the water
they are going to question the owner on who installed the valve. This step
is because if another person is at faulty for shoddy work, they'll want
them to pay. That's why professional companies also carry insurance
policies. Every insurance company is different on how far they deem
reasonable to investigate, normally depending on the overall cost of the
repair. The model/identity number of the valve can be easily traced to
show when it was purchased. This can be compared to the tenure of the
homeowner in the residence. You can see where this goes. So you see, it
all depends on the company. Nothing is black and white, we all know that.
The problem with your statement is that you're making the assumption that
the VALVE is the problem, but in most cases it's the INSTALLATION.

To the second comment, I never stated that a person could not do it
themselves. Of course they can. That is every home owner's right. As long
as there's no HOA a home owner can do whatever they wish to their home.
And yes, a homeowner can pull their own permit in order to perform these
tasks. But a permit couples with an inspection to ensure it is done
properly and in accordance with city code.

Somehow we got off track and we are now talking about people doing their
own work. That's not at all what the question was or what the thread is
about. The question was is it legal for a Plumber to install a 2 or 3
handle valve that is not pressure balance or containing thermostatic
controlled. The simple answer is this: A LICENSED PLUMBING PROFESSIONAL
CAN NOT PERFORM THIS ACTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE,
INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE, OR ASSE 1016; THEREFORE THE INSTALLATION OF
SUCH A DEVICE PUTS THE LICENSE OF THE PLUMBER PROFESSIONAL AT RISK OF
TERMINATION.

But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just
probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
license to do it for you. Hope this helps!

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On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:

snip

But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just
probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
license to do it for you. Hope this helps!


There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.

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On 9/6/2013 1:26 PM, sms wrote:
On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:

snip

But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You
just
probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
license to do it for you. Hope this helps!


There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.

People have not even mentioned one of the primary limiting components as
to homeowner repairs/changes to his home. That is the mortgage holder
for the property, unless the homeowner owns the property free of a mortgage.

Read the mortgage papers you signed. You must maintain the property so
the value is at least as great as the mortgage principal balance. Also,
in most cases, the mortgage owner has the right to inspect your property
at least annually.

Years ago, my brother worked for a mortgage company. One day he called
to see if I knew where a particular house was located. It was right next
door, with a board fence between the properties. The mortgage holder
asked my brother to inspect the place. The property owner was a
contractor and the entire place was filled with lumber, old bathroom
fixtures and who knows what else. My brother visited and told the owner
the mortgage holder gave him 30 days to clean it all up. Which he did.

Paul
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replying to sms , mcadchri wrote:
scharf.steven wrote:

snip
There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.




That seems accurate. If there's any common knowledge about insurance
companies it's that they do not want to pay. They will put forth the time
and manpower to avoid paying a claim if possible. So it just seems more
logical to avoid all this mess and headache and just have the valve
replaced.

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Friday, September 6, 2013 2:45:08 PM UTC-4, mcadchri wrote:
replying to , mcadchri wrote:

trader4 wrote:




+1


Frequently claimed here, but I've yet to see one example of


an insurance company doing it. And he's also wrong on another


aspect. There is absolutely nothing preventing people in most


parts of the country from doing repairs in their own home


themselves without being licensed. You are frequently required to get


a permit, depending on what you are doing. But even here in the


Peoples Republic of NJ, you can do work on your own home, without


being licensed.








I'm going to try and reply to the previous two comments in this section

here so bear with me. As far as evidence is concerned, only what you learn

from speaking with customers and adjusters on the job. You're more than

welcome to try to read through the hundreds of pages of legal jargon in

your homeowner's insurance policy manual to find the specifics, but I'll

pass. We all do know though that when a large claim is made an adjuster

comes out to do an investigation (or the insurance company sends a

licensed professional on their behalf). This is to find out what caused

the leak (in this example of a shower valve leak). If they conclude that

the valve body itself is the cause of the leak, then of course they will

pay because this is what the insurance is for. However, if it is

determined that one of the sweats (copper + silver + copper fusions

linking the valve body to the pipe) is at fault for the cause of the water

they are going to question the owner on who installed the valve. This step

is because if another person is at faulty for shoddy work, they'll want

them to pay.


What the insurance company does in that case is to pay the
claim to the homeowner and then if they believe they have
a claim against the plumber who did the work, they go after
them to recover. That is very different from what you stated,
which is that they deny the claim.



That's why professional companies also carry insurance

policies. Every insurance company is different on how far they deem

reasonable to investigate, normally depending on the overall cost of the

repair. The model/identity number of the valve can be easily traced to

show when it was purchased. This can be compared to the tenure of the

homeowner in the residence. You can see where this goes.

So you see, it

all depends on the company. Nothing is black and white, we all know that.

The problem with your statement is that you're making the assumption that

the VALVE is the problem, but in most cases it's the INSTALLATION.



To the second comment, I never stated that a person could not do it

themselves. Of course they can. That is every home owner's right. As long

as there's no HOA a home owner can do whatever they wish to their home.


But you said or at least strongly implied, that if they did it themselves and it fails because something wasn't done right, then the insurance company won't pay the claim, because they were unlicensed.


"The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional."


That is what has been claimed here many times. It seems rather
odd. You can be an idiot and leave a pot of oil burning on the stove,
it burns the whole house down and they pay. You leave a
window open, it rains, the house gets damaged, they pay. But you
put a water valve in and it leaks and they aren't going to pay
because you're not licensed? Maybe it's happened, but I'd
like to see an example.







And yes, a homeowner can pull their own permit in order to perform these

tasks. But a permit couples with an inspection to ensure it is done

properly and in accordance with city code.



There is only a permit pulled if it's necessary. There are all
kinds of repairs being done by homeowners in various parts of
the country that require no permit.





Somehow we got off track and we are now talking about people doing their

own work. That's not at all what the question was or what the thread is

about. The question was is it legal for a Plumber to install a 2 or 3

handle valve that is not pressure balance or containing thermostatic

controlled. The simple answer is this: A LICENSED PLUMBING PROFESSIONAL

CAN NOT PERFORM THIS ACTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE,

INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE, OR ASSE 1016; THEREFORE THE INSTALLATION OF

SUCH A DEVICE PUTS THE LICENSE OF THE PLUMBER PROFESSIONAL AT RISK OF

TERMINATION.


I would think that would be true if the AHJ has adopted
that part of the code. Not saying it probably isn't now in
force across most of the USA, especially the populated parts,
but do you know what every backwater community everywhere
has done?






But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just

probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people

who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his

license to do it for you. Hope this helps!



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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On 9/6/2013 9:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:

Very interesting. I've been investigating this topic all morning because
we had a client who refused to change and just wants an unlicensed
handyman to do it.


There are two handle shower controls with anti-scald so he should just
use one of those.

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?


On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 15:44:02 +0000, mcadchri
wrote:

replying to samueltilden, mcadchri wrote:
samueltilden wrote:

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.
Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"
Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.
Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?
If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.
P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?
Thanks.




In some states two-handle faucets have been made illegal according to the
published uniform plumbing code of that state. Each state produces their
own uniform plumbing code. By illegal, it means that a licensed plumbing
professional can NOT install this device for risk of his license being
revoked by the state, in essence ruining his business and/or livelihood.
Any existing two-handle is grandfathered in if it existed prior to the
code being written. However, if the valve goes bad and needs to be
replaced, it MUST be replaced with a pressure balanced single handle
valve. The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.

Hope this helps!


Soon, it will be illegal to take a **** between certain hours. Before
our politicians take away our guns, we need to march to specific
government buildings armed and ready to do some shooting. Otherwise we
can kiss American goodbye. Next time you sing the Star Spangled Banner,
DO NOT use the words "land of the free". It's a goddamn lie!

**** it, I think I'll replace my single handed shower faucet with a
double just to spite the cocksuckers!

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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 04:31:22 -0500, wrote:


On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 15:44:02 +0000, mcadchri
m wrote:

replying to samueltilden, mcadchri wrote:
samueltilden wrote:

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.
Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"
Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.
Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?
If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.
P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?
Thanks.




In some states two-handle faucets have been made illegal according to the
published uniform plumbing code of that state. Each state produces their
own uniform plumbing code. By illegal, it means that a licensed plumbing
professional can NOT install this device for risk of his license being
revoked by the state, in essence ruining his business and/or livelihood.
Any existing two-handle is grandfathered in if it existed prior to the
code being written. However, if the valve goes bad and needs to be
replaced, it MUST be replaced with a pressure balanced single handle
valve. The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.

Hope this helps!


Soon, it will be illegal to take a **** between certain hours. Before
our politicians take away our guns, we need to march to specific
government buildings armed and ready to do some shooting. Otherwise we
can kiss American goodbye. Next time you sing the Star Spangled Banner,
DO NOT use the words "land of the free". It's a goddamn lie!

**** it, I think I'll replace my single handed shower faucet with a
double just to spite the cocksuckers!

Up here inKitchener/Waterloo Ontaro when a new water heater is
installed a scald-proof valve needs to be installed at the water
heater that "tempers" the water to a "safe temperature" - meaning you
can use 2 handle faucets and have no danger of scalding. It also means
it is virtually impossible to get hot water!!!
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Friday, September 6, 2013 5:15:20 PM UTC-4, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 9/6/2013 1:26 PM, sms wrote:

On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:




snip




But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You


just


probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people


who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his


license to do it for you. Hope this helps!




There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your


shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if


the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement


for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the


valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it


was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by


installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse


to pay.




People have not even mentioned one of the primary limiting components as

to homeowner repairs/changes to his home. That is the mortgage holder

for the property, unless the homeowner owns the property free of a mortgage.



Read the mortgage papers you signed. You must maintain the property so

the value is at least as great as the mortgage principal balance. Also,

in most cases, the mortgage owner has the right to inspect your property

at least annually.



Years ago, my brother worked for a mortgage company. One day he called

to see if I knew where a particular house was located. It was right next

door, with a board fence between the properties. The mortgage holder

asked my brother to inspect the place. The property owner was a

contractor and the entire place was filled with lumber, old bathroom

fixtures and who knows what else. My brother visited and told the owner

the mortgage holder gave him 30 days to clean it all up. Which he did.



Paul


Oh, good grief. Now we have the mortgage company boogey man?


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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Saturday, September 7, 2013 10:52:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:26:21 -0700, sms

wrote:



On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:




snip




But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just


probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people


who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his


license to do it for you. Hope this helps!




There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your


shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if


the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement


for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the


valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it


was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by


installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse


to pay.




It makes me wonder how the baby boomers and their parents actually

survived without all of this new "safety".



We had lawn darts, diving boards at every pool, gas cans that you

could actually get the gas out of, and a car seat for a kid clipped

over the seat back with a little steering wheel in front.



Toilets actually flushed, showers sprayed enough water to get you wet

and, oh yes, you had to make sure the water wasn't too hot yourself.


You know what's rather odd. I've seen it posted that two handle
shower faucets are illegal. I've seen it posted that if a plumber
ever installs one, anywhere, he'll lose his license. I've seen it
posted that if a homeowner installs one, or anything himself for that
matter, the insurance company won't pay off on a claim if it someday
leaks. I've even heard that the mortgage company gestapo is gonna
come inspect and catch you someday. But, oddly, for something that
is supposed to be so illegal, if you just google for two handle
shower faucets you immediately come up with
many two handle ones being sold here in the USA, made by major
plumbing eqpt suppliers, like Moen. Go figure..


http://www.fixtureuniverse.com/produ...A&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.fixtureuniverse.com/produ...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.faucet.com/moen-82402-dou...FdOj4Aod5CwAZw

BTW, for the google handicapped, like Harry K, who can't find
anything for themselves, I've provided some links above.
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 14:15:20 -0700, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 9/6/2013 1:26 PM, sms wrote:
On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:

snip

But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You
just
probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
license to do it for you. Hope this helps!


There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.

People have not even mentioned one of the primary limiting components as
to homeowner repairs/changes to his home. That is the mortgage holder
for the property, unless the homeowner owns the property free of a mortgage.


Utter nonsense.

Read the mortgage papers you signed. You must maintain the property so
the value is at least as great as the mortgage principal balance. Also,
in most cases, the mortgage owner has the right to inspect your property
at least annually.


Good grief! Replacing the shower mixing valve doesn't change the value
of the home. ...not even $.25.


Years ago, my brother worked for a mortgage company. One day he called
to see if I knew where a particular house was located. It was right next
door, with a board fence between the properties. The mortgage holder
asked my brother to inspect the place. The property owner was a
contractor and the entire place was filled with lumber, old bathroom
fixtures and who knows what else. My brother visited and told the owner
the mortgage holder gave him 30 days to clean it all up. Which he did.


...and that's relevant to a mixing valve, just how?
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 22:45:01 +0000, mcadchri
wrote:

replying to sms , mcadchri wrote:
scharf.steven wrote:

snip
There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.




That seems accurate. If there's any common knowledge about insurance
companies it's that they do not want to pay. They will put forth the time
and manpower to avoid paying a claim if possible. So it just seems more
logical to avoid all this mess and headache and just have the valve
replaced.


More nonsense. If your insurance company has that reputation, get
another. NOW.
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

Just as an aside...

The times I've gotten almost-burned taking a shower, were
always with a one-handle control.

Seems if you move it towards "hot", it gets _very_ hot
unpredictably.
If you move it towards "cold", it gets _very_ cold,
unpredictably.
Almost impossible to control it in small increments of
temperature.

With a two-handle (hot/cold) control setup, you can set "one
side" (say, the hot side), and then gradually add cool water
to balance things out.

I would never want a single-knob control.
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On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:19:59 -0400, John Albert
wrote:

Just as an aside...

The times I've gotten almost-burned taking a shower, were
always with a one-handle control.

Seems if you move it towards "hot", it gets _very_ hot
unpredictably.
If you move it towards "cold", it gets _very_ cold,
unpredictably.
Almost impossible to control it in small increments of
temperature.


Your hot water must be very hot. We had a similar problem but the hot
water went up to 180F (right out of the domestic coil on the boiler).
One got used to controlling it, though. It sure surprised some
visitors. Oh, and don't flush! In short, the plumbing in that house
sucked. It wasn't the mixing valve(s).

With a two-handle (hot/cold) control setup, you can set "one
side" (say, the hot side), and then gradually add cool water
to balance things out.

I would never want a single-knob control.


Dumb. Dual valve controls always leak. The single valve models have
an easily replaced cartridge. That said, not all single knob mixing
valves are alike. Some only have temperature control, no volume.

In short, Id *never* have the individual hot/cold knobs, anywhere
outside, perhaps, a slop sink.
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John Albert wrote:

I would never want a single-knob control.


Sounds like you had a cheap, uncontrolled valve. I do like pressure balanced
valves. They strike a reasonable compromise between the cost of a temperature
controlled valve and getting scalded when someone flushes a nearby toilet. Never
seen a PB valve that wasn't single control.

That said, what does annoy me are single knob shower valves that force you to
dial through full cold before they start blending in hot water. Always get hit
with that last little blast of cold water as I turn off the water and exit the
shower. Plus, there is no way to dial back the pressure - it has to be full on
or controlled at the head.
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wrote:


It makes me wonder how the baby boomers and their parents actually
survived without all of this new "safety".

We had lawn darts, diving boards at every pool, gas cans that you
could actually get the gas out of, and a car seat for a kid clipped
over the seat back with a little steering wheel in front.


It's not about those of us who have survived, it's about the many who
haven't.

Compare the percentage of children who survive car crashes in today's car
seats vs. the survival rate for those in the "car seat with a little
steering wheel in front".

I suppose you want us to go back to cars without crumble zones or air bags.
Many of us have survived accidents without all that "safety".
Unfortunately, there are many people that are no longer with us because
they weren't "inconvenienced" by all this mandated safety equipment.


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On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 01:46:46 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

wrote:


It makes me wonder how the baby boomers and their parents actually
survived without all of this new "safety".

We had lawn darts, diving boards at every pool, gas cans that you
could actually get the gas out of, and a car seat for a kid clipped
over the seat back with a little steering wheel in front.


It's not about those of us who have survived, it's about the many who
haven't.

Compare the percentage of children who survive car crashes in today's car
seats vs. the survival rate for those in the "car seat with a little
steering wheel in front".

I suppose you want us to go back to cars without crumble zones or air bags.
Many of us have survived accidents without all that "safety".
Unfortunately, there are many people that are no longer with us because
they weren't "inconvenienced" by all this mandated safety equipment.


....and how about all those little tykes who are never allowed to play
in the dirt and then get asthma and all sorts of diseases because
their immune systems don't work properly.

"Safety" is a two-way street.
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Sorry I have to resurrect this because I'm ****ed as hell at these bull**** "scald safe" faucets in my home.

I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got it. It runs on propane (we do not have natural gas).

Just so you understand how inline water heaters work. When you turn on the hot water anywhere in the house, this thing fires up a propane burner which heats a coil of copper pipe that winds through the unit. As the water flows through, it's heated by the propane. There is no tank - water is heated on-demand as you need it.

I have no idea whether this is a "feature" (or lack of) in my specific inline heater, or if all inline heaters work this way. The problem is the intensity of the burner does not adjust adequately based on flow rate. If you turn the hot on full blast, the water is passing through the flames much more quickly, and doesn't heat up as much. If you turn on the hot water only a little, it passes through the flames much more slowly and you get much hotter water.

What this means is, if I want cooler water, I can't reduce the hot handle - that reduces the quantity of hot water, but increases the temperature of the hot side. I have to INCREASE the cold side to make it cooler, and leave the hot alone.

This is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a single handle faucet. When you turn it towards cold, it is both reducing the hot and increasing the cold, and the net difference ends up being about the same. The more you turn it towards the blue, the hotter the hot water gets, which cancels out the increased supply of cold water. One temp is all you get.

That is, until the hot water is trickling so slowly it reaches 140*F, at which point the safety kicks on at the inline water heater and shuts down everything. Then you're back to cold water no matter how you turn the faucet.

Yes, I've tried adjusting the little valve thingy on the sides of the single-handle faucets to increase the max amount of hot water - makes no difference. And also, about half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so crusty/rusted I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get them loose.
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I can't stand this type of nanny-state bull****, with regulations stepping in to prevent things that common sense should be preventing.

The red handle provides hot water, hot enough to burn you. Be careful.

PLEASE GIVE ME BACK MY RIGHT TO CONTROL THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN MY HOUSE.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Sorry I have to resurrect this because I'm ****ed as hell at these bull**** "scald safe" faucets in my home.

I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got it. It runs on propane (we do not have natural gas).

Just so you understand how inline water heaters work. When you turn on the hot water anywhere in the house, this thing fires up a propane burner which heats a coil of copper pipe that winds through the unit. As the water flows through, it's heated by the propane. There is no tank - water is heated on-demand as you need it.

I have no idea whether this is a "feature" (or lack of) in my specific inline heater, or if all inline heaters work this way. The problem is the intensity of the burner does not adjust adequately based on flow rate. If you turn the hot on full blast, the water is passing through the flames much more quickly, and doesn't heat up as much. If you turn on the hot water only a little, it passes through the flames much more slowly and you get much hotter water.

What this means is, if I want cooler water, I can't reduce the hot handle - that reduces the quantity of hot water, but increases the temperature of the hot side. I have to INCREASE the cold side to make it cooler, and leave the hot alone.

This is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a single handle faucet. When you turn it towards cold, it is both reducing the hot and increasing the cold, and the net difference ends up being about the same. The more you turn it towards the blue, the hotter the hot water gets, which cancels out the increased supply of cold water. One temp is all you get.

That is, until the hot water is trickling so slowly it reaches 140*F, at which point the safety kicks on at the inline water heater and shuts down everything. Then you're back to cold water no matter how you turn the faucet.

Yes, I've tried adjusting the little valve thingy on the sides of the single-handle faucets to increase the max amount of hot water - makes no difference. And also, about half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so crusty/rusted I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get them loose.

Don't know about the USA but in Canada they are legal if you have a
"tempering valve" on the water heater, which mixes hot and cold to
limit the output temperature.
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Default Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end
brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater
and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got
it. It runs on propane (we do not have natural gas).


the intensity of the burner does not adjust adequately based on flow
rate. If you turn the hot on full blast, the water is passing through
the flames much more quickly, and doesn't heat up as much. If you
turn on the hot water only a little, it passes through the flames much
more slowly and you get much hotter water.


It sounds like your tankless water heater is undersized for your
situation.

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
cooler water.

Likewise, if the water coming into your home is colder, the outgoing
water will be colder too. The heater can only raise the temperature so
much.

It would be like trying to heat an entire house with a small space
heater. If you close the doors you might be able to heat one room. Open
the doors and you'll lose heat faster than the heater can warm it.

When you bought your heater you should have checked the temperature of
your water supply, what flow rate you would need (how many fixtures you
would be running at once), and selected a heater that could meet those
requirements.

At this point, you really only have a few options.

1. Return the tankless heater and go back to a tank heater.

2. Replace the tankless heater with a more powerful model.

3. Add a valve to the water line to reduce the flow rate (giving the
heater more time to heat up the water).

Of course, putting low flow aerators on all of your fixtures would help
too.

One way you can test if your water heater is the culprit is to open a hot
water valve at a sink or washing machine outlet. Basically someplace with
the "two handle" operation you are describing. If the water cools down as
you open the faucet further, you know the heater isn't able to keep up.

I'm ****ed as hell at these bull**** "scald safe" faucets in my home.


As far as I know, single handle pressure balanced shower faucets are now
required for new construction (or remodels when you upgrade the
plumbing).

You might try replacing the balancing valve in the faucet, it might just
be defective. Sometimes they get plugged up with grit and stop moving
correctly.

half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so crusty/rusted
I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get them
loose.


Odds are the pressure balancer is crusty/rusted too. Time to do some
maintenance.

Good luck,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
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