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#41
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#42
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#43
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#44
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:31:55 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
At this point, you really only have a few options. 1. Return the tankless heater and go back to a tank heater. 2. Replace the tankless heater with a more powerful model. 3. Add a valve to the water line to reduce the flow rate (giving the heater more time to heat up the water). Of course, putting low flow aerators on all of your fixtures would help too. Agree. Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer. I see what's going on and how it's annoying, but I'd say the root cause are the properties of the tankless. It would be solved by having a tankless sized to maintain constant water temp up to whatever the max usage rate of the whole house is. But that will likely take a much larger model, because you have to support the max reasonable load of the whole house. And if he's having this problem with just one point of use, it would likely require a much bigger unit to support two or three simultaneous draws. Alternative, as you say, is to restrict the hot water flow rate so that the tankless can keep up. Even then though, I wonder how variable their burn rate is and if they can actually maintain a perfectly constant outgoing temp rate? IDK, because I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting with cost. |
#45
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I'm not certain, but I think where I live plumbers
are not allowed to install separate valves, but you can still buy them. It sounds like what you need is a real water heater. Then if you do the shower plumbing yourself you can probably switch over to dual valves. But with a decent water heater you might be happy with the old mixing valve. |
#46
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Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer.
There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the application. As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong model". A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well for an entire house. I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting with cost. I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas available and electric models would have required major electrical supply upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive. However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never runs out. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#47
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Tankless water heaters suck and they don't really save money.
That's an inaccurate generalization. Technically, tankless water heaters "flow", not suck. ![]() As for saving money, that depends on the application. If you use hot water regularly throughout the day, you probably won't notice a major difference compared to a tanked model (other than the hot water never runs out). On the other hand, if you have a cabin or rental unit that can sit empty for days, you'll save money by not heating water when no one is using it. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#48
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 10:57:03 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer. There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the application. I'd say even if they're sized right, the fact that in most cases you'll never recover the increased upfront costs of the unit and installation are something that's wrong with them. That cost can include running a larger gas service. The OP might run into that if he tries to put in a larger one. And the alleged savings in operating costs, I think in many cases are overstated. As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong model". A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well for an entire house. I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting with cost. I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas available and electric models would have required major electrical supply upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive. There you go. However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never runs out. That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation. For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most tankless, you don't. |
#49
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On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 14:55:32 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote: There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the application. Well, yes there are some things. They are expensive. That's because they have a lot going on in the unit in order to operate properly and safely. And that means a lot can go wrong, and very few qualified technicians to fix it, usually only one source for parts, and that means repairs can cost more than the original installation. They do have some good selling points, but consumers should know about the good and the bad before making a decision. -- croy |
#51
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature. Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need. As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine. Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold: http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Re...A-BN/100094257 So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes, etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's for sure. I agree you have a valuable point though, and one that you probably wouldn't realize until it's too late. Which is if you have a tankless that can't maintain a constant temperature across the flow rate when using the shower and/or shower plus other draws at the same time, then you will have the problem you describe. If that is happening with just the shower, it definitely sounds like the tankless is under sized. What make/model is it? Also something that should help would be to reduce the flow rate at the shower head, assuming it's not already limited flow. |
#52
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On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:25:37 -0700, croy wrote
in On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 14:55:32 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband wrote: There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the application. Well, yes there are some things. They are expensive. That's because they have a lot going on in the unit in order to operate properly and safely. And that means a lot can go wrong, and very few qualified technicians to fix it, usually only one source for parts, and that means repairs can cost more than the original installation. They do have some good selling points, but consumers should know about the good and the bad before making a decision. +1 -- Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one. Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those newspapers delivered to your door every morning. |
#53
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On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote:
Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in volume, is much hotter. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns the hot water heater off when not in use. |
#54
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On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote:
[snip] That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation. For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most tankless, you don't. I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure (caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was getting a hot shower. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "If we should put god in the Constitution there would be no room left for man." -- Robert G. Ingersoll |
#55
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, wrote: range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature. Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need. As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine. Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold: http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Re...A-BN/100094257 So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes, etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's for sure. I'm not sure we can state that's it's "not trivial" without knowing the situation in a given bathroom. If the shower originally had a 2 handle valve which has been replaced with an escutcheon plate and a single handle, then reverting back to 2 faucets might not be that hard at all. https://www.plumbingsupply.com/image...inch-specs.png Granted, if there is only the single hole in the existing wall, no easy access to the plumbing, etc. then things do get a bit more complicated, but I don't know that we can make the "not trivial" assertion without more information. I agree you have a valuable point though, and one that you probably wouldn't realize until it's too late. Which is if you have a tankless that can't maintain a constant temperature across the flow rate when using the shower and/or shower plus other draws at the same time, then you will have the problem you describe. If that is happening with just the shower, it definitely sounds like the tankless is under sized. What make/model is it? Also something that should help would be to reduce the flow rate at the shower head, assuming it's not already limited flow. |
#56
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On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 3:24:23 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote: Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. That would seem to be exactly his problem. At a slower flow rate, it's able to heat the water hotter. If he had a unit with a much higher capacity, then he wouldn't be having the problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. It can't heat to the same temperature at 5 gal a minute as it can at 1 gal a minute. It's very much an issue of the flow rate. Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in volume, is much hotter. That would indeed be the problem he stated. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap. I would certainly hope so. Otherwise when you were drawing .1 gal a minute, you'd get steam, wouldn't you? Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? If you had a big family and had experiences of running out of hot water I can see it. Around here, they are putting in two tank type to support large homes, with Jacuzzi type tubs, etc. I can see putting one in there instead of two tank type. Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns the hot water heater off when not in use. Not so easy unless you have a predictable schedule of when you're going to be there. For vacation rentals it wouldn't work well either. |
#57
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Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The problem is probably a defective faucet. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the individual. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com |
#58
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. There is a big difference. The tank type has most of a tank of hot water at close to the same temperature. When you start drawing water, you can pull a lot of water at whatever rate you want and the temp is not going to vary much. If you pull enough, eventually the temp will drop as the cold water entering the bottom of the tank starts to effect the hot water leaving the top. With a tankless, the burn rate of fuel has to be adjusted to the flow rate. Otherwise you'd get steam at .1 gal an hour and the temp would vary wildly based on flow rate. How exactly they do that, IDK, but I'd suspect they use some kind of modulating gas valve. |
#59
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On 7/9/2015 4:03 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote: [snip] That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation. For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most tankless, you don't. I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure (caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was getting a hot shower. I've had people suggest I go tankless water heater. Of course, the thousand dollars or so is a factor. The hot shower during a power cut is a very good thing. Will stick with my tank type heater for now. -- .. Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .. www.lds.org .. .. |
#60
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On Monday, September 8, 2008 at 3:13:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two faucets: one for hot and the other for cold. Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and somebody else is taking a shower. Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or simply ask, "may I flush?" Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a strong preference for the two faucet shower. Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two faucets in a shower? If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to see this in writing. P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course, but faucets in a shower? Thanks. ____ I prefer single handle(sinks and tubs) because I am terribly dyslexic and always grab hot for cold faucet or vice versa. But to deny someone a two- handle setup is just communist, if you axe me! |
#61
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
Someone other than HerHusband asked: Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? Yes, per the site linked to below, they do exist. I quote, but offer no examples: "Some types of tankless water heaters are thermostatically controlled; they can vary their output temperature according to the water flow rate and inlet temperature." I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. Not so. Flow Rate is known drawback of tankless WH. Well, maybe not a drawback, per se, but a key factor in sizing a unit. It's a drawback in the sense that you may need to purchase a bigger/more expensive unit based of your flow rate/temperature rise requirements. The more flow you demand, the lower the water temp at the output because the water is not in "contact" with the burners for as long a time. Granted, flow rate will impact a tank heater also in that you will run out of 120 degree water sooner with a higher flow rate, but the difference is that regardless of how many showers you turn on, you *will* get 120 degree water out of the tank for some period of time. With a tankless heater, you may never get 120 degree water if the flow rate outpaces the heater's ability to impart the required temperature rise. From: http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...w-water-heater SIZING TANKLESS OR DEMAND-TYPE WATER HEATERS Tankless or demand-type water heaters are rated by the maximum temperature rise possible at a given flow rate. Therefore, to size a demand water heater, you need to determine the flow rate and the temperature rise you'll need for its application (whole house or a remote application, such as just a bathroom) in your home. |
#62
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:07:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, September 8, 2008 at 3:13:53 AM UTC-4, wrote: We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two faucets: one for hot and the other for cold. Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and somebody else is taking a shower. Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or simply ask, "may I flush?" Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a strong preference for the two faucet shower. Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two faucets in a shower? If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to see this in writing. P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course, but faucets in a shower? Thanks. ____ I prefer single handle(sinks and tubs) because I am terribly dyslexic and always grab hot for cold faucet or vice versa. But to deny someone a two- handle setup is just communist, if you axe me! Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner: If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended? |
#63
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9:33 AMDerbyDad03 wrote:
"- show quoted text - Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner: If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended? " Sometimes. |
#64
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wrote:
Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two faucets in a shower? If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to see this in writing. Depends on which version of the UPC your area is using. Best to call your local code office: http://mcadamsplumbing.com/two-three...ucets-illegal/ |
#65
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On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote: Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The problem is probably a defective faucet. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the individual. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com A better answer is more money than brains. In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. |
#66
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. Probably true. But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. Water is cheap in the US but that isn't true everywhere. We had a tankless in Germany for the kitchen, based on not wasting water (kitchen was a long way from the boiler). |
#67
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband wrote: Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The problem is probably a defective faucet. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the individual. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com A better answer is more money than brains. In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended) "More money than brains" The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity. If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second. We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots. Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid. |
#68
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On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:01:11 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote: In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. Probably true. But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared. Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-) |
#69
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-On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:23:24 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband wrote: Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. -------------------------------------------------------- If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The problem is probably a defective faucet. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the individual. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com A better answer is more money than brains. In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended) "More money than brains" The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity. If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second. We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots. Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid. +1 And so typical. In another thread, Clare calls for me to be censored, but he goes around slamming people as having no brains because they might choose a tankless. I could see it as being useful in a vacation property or a rental property for example. If you only go there a few days a week, it's not maintaining a tank of hot water. And for vacation rental properties, same thing. When the renters show up, they have hot water. |
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On 7/9/2015 10:36 PM, HerHusband wrote:
Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. Wrong. The temperature of the water out of tank model is constant regardless of the flow rate. Sure you can drain it faster than it can re-heat the water if the flow rate is very high, but that is not the normal case in a properly sized tank heater. A tankless model could mix cold water with hot water at lower flow rates to keep the output temperature constant (rather than trying to adjust the flame intensity. Maybe some do this. |
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On 7/10/2015 2:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared. Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-) There are other ways to get there aside from tankless. My old oil fired boiler would keep up forever but it was not very efficient. Most electric water heaters have a first hour rating of 50 or 60 gallons. My indirect fired tank has a rating of about 250 gallons. It is 40% better on oil than my old setup. |
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On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote: On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote: In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. Probably true. But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. Water is cheap in the US but that isn't true everywhere. We had a tankless in Germany for the kitchen, based on not wasting water (kitchen was a long way from the boiler). Water isn't cheap here either - but unless it is a big house and the heater is at the wrong end, unless it is a very high quality unit it will still not last long enought to pay for itself - and even then, a unit of high enough quality to last that long will cost so much it STILL won't pay for itself. It's just about the APPEARANCE of being "green" |
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On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband wrote: Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get cooler water. This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low flow the water is too hot. If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes: 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature. 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective. Both are easy fixes. Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant regardless of the flow? I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different. It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves the heater. As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The problem is probably a defective faucet. Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential property? Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the individual. Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com A better answer is more money than brains. In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings - not even close. While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended) "More money than brains" The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity. If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? Move to iceland - hot water there truly IS endless - AND free. I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second. If I needed endless hot water, perhaps - but I've NEVER run out of hot water - in a household with 2 daughters, and a standard 40 gallon gas water heater. Growing up with 7 siblings and a 30 gallon electric water heater it took some strategic planning. We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots. Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid. |
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mine is a 75 gallon 75,000 btu tank. it supplies endless hot water. my lat tank was 75,000 btu 50 gallons. but they quit making that one..
i know someone who went tankless the entire thing with install cot about 3 grand. and the time to saving money on gas is never |
#77
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replying to hallerb, Susan Johann wrote:
Mine doesn't allow low flow of hot water or high flow of cold water. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm |
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replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote:
Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house used water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm |
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On 1/18/2020 8:14 PM, Susan Johann wrote:
replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote: Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house used water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem. After 13 years the OP can finally finish his renovations. Thanks for your help |
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If I lived in that state that outlawed a two-handled faucet, I would consider moving to a different state. The Nanny State needs to be outlawed!!!!!!
-- For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm |
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