On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


What this means is, if I want cooler water, I can't reduce the hot handle -=
that reduces the quantity of hot water, but increases the temperature of t=
he hot side. I have to INCREASE the cold side to make it cooler, and leave=
the hot alone.

This is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a single handle faucet. When you turn it tow=

I noticed this, and I don't like them because of this. Because you have
no control of how much water comes out. . I think I've seen this kind
of faucet in gym locker rooms, And they had it in the Hilton I just
stayed in, though there one person's use of ho****er probably has no
effect on its temperature.

ards cold, it is both reducing the hot and increasing the cold, and the net=
difference ends up being about the same. The more you turn it towards the=
blue, the hotter the hot water gets, which cancels out the increased suppl=
y of cold water. One temp is all you get.

That is, until the hot water is trickling so slowly it reaches 140*F, at wh=
ich point the safety kicks on at the inline water heater and shuts down eve=
rything. Then you're back to cold water no matter how you turn the faucet.

Yes, I've tried adjusting the little valve thingy on the sides of the singl=
e-handle faucets to increase the max amount of hot water - makes no differe=
nce. And also, about half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so =
crusty/rusted I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get =
them loose.

However i didn't realize there were so many problems.

A) I don't know anything about the law.

Besides Hubby's suggestions, and depending on how many places this is a
problem, could you replace the shower fixture with a kitchen sink style
fixture, whose handle moves in two planes and with which you can adjust
both the temp and the volume? I can't remember now seeing them in a
shower or bathtub but I saw one in a bathroom sink a couple days ago
(of course the house was 30 or 40 years old)

It might be easier, no tile work, for example, to replace the water
heater.


My own bathtub/shower doesn't work like I remember it. If I don't want
a blast of water, just moderate, I can turn on the hot, and then it
takes only a minute adjustment to the cold to change the temperature of
the mixed water. It's not bad, but I sure thought it used to work
differently and I don't know how it coudl have changed.

On 07/08/2015 10:11 PM, wrote:

I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got it.

Tankless water heaters suck and they don't really save money.

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 20:17:55 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I can't stand this type of nanny-state bull****, with regulations stepping in to prevent things that common sense should be preventing.

The red handle provides hot water, hot enough to burn you. Be careful.

PLEASE GIVE ME BACK MY RIGHT TO CONTROL THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN MY HOUSE.

Why blame safety regulations for your crappy water heater? Or is the
valve going bad? With my single handle shower faucets I turn the
handle to about 11 o'clock, make a minor adjustment if needed and I'm
set to shower. Makes no difference if anyone flushes a toilet, the
dishwasher is filling or the other shower is going.

It is also possible the sensor in the faucet is not working properly
too. You should be able to set the maximum temperature at a safe
level and just turn the handle to full hot and be within showering
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:31:55 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:


At this point, you really only have a few options.

1. Return the tankless heater and go back to a tank heater.

2. Replace the tankless heater with a more powerful model.

3. Add a valve to the water line to reduce the flow rate (giving the
heater more time to heat up the water).

Of course, putting low flow aerators on all of your fixtures would help
too.


Agree. Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer. I see
what's going on and how it's annoying, but I'd say the root cause
are the properties of the tankless. It would be solved by having
a tankless sized to maintain constant water temp up to whatever
the max usage rate of the whole house is. But that will likely
take a much larger model, because you have to support the max
reasonable load of the whole house. And if he's having this
problem with just one point of use, it would likely require a much
bigger unit to support two or three simultaneous draws.
Alternative, as you say, is to restrict the hot water flow rate
so that the tankless can keep up. Even then though, I wonder
how variable their burn rate is and if they can actually
maintain a perfectly constant outgoing temp rate? IDK, because
I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
with cost.

I'm not certain, but I think where I live plumbers
are not allowed to install separate valves, but
you can still buy them. It sounds like what you
need is a real water heater. Then if you do the
shower plumbing yourself you can probably switch
over to dual valves. But with a decent water heater
you might be happy with the old mixing valve.

Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer.

There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
application.

As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the
item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong
model".

A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well
for an entire house.

I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
with cost.

I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas
available and electric models would have required major electrical supply
upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a
large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive.

However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they
perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never
runs out.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

Tankless water heaters suck and they don't really save money.

That's an inaccurate generalization.

Technically, tankless water heaters "flow", not suck.

As for saving money, that depends on the application. If you use hot water
regularly throughout the day, you probably won't notice a major difference
compared to a tanked model (other than the hot water never runs out). On
the other hand, if you have a cabin or rental unit that can sit empty for
days, you'll save money by not heating water when no one is using it.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 10:57:03 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer.

There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
application.


I'd say even if they're sized right, the fact that in most cases
you'll never recover the increased upfront costs of the unit
and installation are something that's wrong with them. That cost
can include running a larger gas service. The OP might run into
that if he tries to put in a larger one. And the alleged savings
in operating costs, I think in many cases are overstated.




As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the
item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong
model".

A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well
for an entire house.

I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
with cost.

I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas
available and electric models would have required major electrical supply
upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a
large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive.

There you go.


However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they
perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never
runs out.


That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
tankless, you don't.

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 14:55:32 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
application.

Well, yes there are some things. They are expensive. That's
because they have a lot going on in the unit in order to
operate properly and safely. And that means a lot can go
wrong, and very few qualified technicians to fix it, usually
only one source for parts, and that means repairs can cost
more than the original installation.

They do have some good selling points, but consumers should
know about the good and the bad before making a decision.

--
croy

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 5:03:12 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 20:17:55 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I can't stand this type of nanny-state bull****, with regulations stepping in to prevent things that common sense should be preventing.

The red handle provides hot water, hot enough to burn you. Be careful.

PLEASE GIVE ME BACK MY RIGHT TO CONTROL THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN MY HOUSE.

Why blame safety regulations for your crappy water heater? Or is the
valve going bad? With my single handle shower faucets I turn the
handle to about 11 o'clock, make a minor adjustment if needed and I'm
set to shower. Makes no difference if anyone flushes a toilet, the
dishwasher is filling or the other shower is going.

It is also possible the sensor in the faucet is not working properly
too. You should be able to set the maximum temperature at a safe
level and just turn the handle to full hot and be within showering
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.

Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.

As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.

Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.

As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.

Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Re...A-BN/100094257

So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you
have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones
are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes,
etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible
it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's
for sure.

I agree you have a valuable point though, and one that you probably
wouldn't realize until it's too late. Which is if you have a tankless
that can't maintain a constant temperature across the flow rate
when using the shower and/or shower plus other draws at the same time,
then you will have the problem you describe. If that is happening
with just the shower, it definitely sounds like the tankless is under
sized. What make/model is it? Also something that should help
would be to reduce the flow rate at the shower head, assuming it's
not already limited flow.

On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:25:37 -0700, croy wrote
in

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 14:55:32 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
application.

Well, yes there are some things. They are expensive. That's
because they have a lot going on in the unit in order to
operate properly and safely. And that means a lot can go
wrong, and very few qualified technicians to fix it, usually
only one source for parts, and that means repairs can cost
more than the original installation.

They do have some good selling points, but consumers should
know about the good and the bad before making a decision.

+1
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low
flow the water is too hot. Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold
and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in
volume, is much hotter.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good
flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property? Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns
the hot water heater off when not in use.

On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
tankless, you don't.


I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure
(caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was
getting a hot shower.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If we should put god in the Constitution there would be no room left
for man." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.

Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.

As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.

Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Re...A-BN/100094257

So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you
have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones
are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes,
etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible
it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's
for sure.

I'm not sure we can state that's it's "not trivial" without knowing the situation in a given bathroom.

If the shower originally had a 2 handle valve which has been replaced with an escutcheon plate and a single handle, then reverting back to 2 faucets might not be that hard at all.

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/image...inch-specs.png

Granted, if there is only the single hole in the existing wall, no easy access to the plumbing, etc. then things do get a bit more complicated, but I don't know that we can make the "not trivial" assertion without more information.



I agree you have a valuable point though, and one that you probably
wouldn't realize until it's too late. Which is if you have a tankless
that can't maintain a constant temperature across the flow rate
when using the shower and/or shower plus other draws at the same time,
then you will have the problem you describe. If that is happening
with just the shower, it definitely sounds like the tankless is under
sized. What make/model is it? Also something that should help
would be to reduce the flow rate at the shower head, assuming it's
not already limited flow.

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 3:24:23 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
cooler water.

This isn't his problem.

That would seem to be exactly his problem. At a slower flow rate,
it's able to heat the water hotter. If he had a unit with a much
higher capacity, then he wouldn't be having the problem.

The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low
flow the water is too hot.

It can't heat to the same temperature at 5 gal a minute as it can
at 1 gal a minute. It's very much an issue of the flow rate.

Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold
and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in
volume, is much hotter.


That would indeed be the problem he stated.


Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good
flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap.

I would certainly hope so. Otherwise when you were drawing .1 gal
a minute, you'd get steam, wouldn't you?


Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

If you had a big family and had experiences of running out of hot
water I can see it. Around here, they are putting in two tank type
to support large homes, with Jacuzzi type tubs, etc. I can see
putting one in there instead of two tank type.



Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns
the hot water heater off when not in use.

Not so easy unless you have a predictable schedule of when you're
going to be there. For vacation rentals it wouldn't work well
either.

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:


Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.


There is a big difference. The tank type has most of a tank of hot
water at close to the same temperature. When you start drawing
water, you can pull a lot of water at whatever rate you want and
the temp is not going to vary much. If you pull enough, eventually
the temp will drop as the cold water entering the bottom of the tank
starts to effect the hot water leaving the top.

With a tankless, the burn rate of fuel has to be adjusted to
the flow rate. Otherwise you'd get steam at .1 gal an hour
and the temp would vary wildly based on flow rate. How exactly
they do that, IDK, but I'd suspect they use some kind of
modulating gas valve.

On 7/9/2015 4:03 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
tankless, you don't.


I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure
(caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was
getting a hot shower.


I've had people suggest I go tankless water heater.
Of course, the thousand dollars or so is a factor.
The hot shower during a power cut is a very good
thing.

Will stick with my tank type heater for now.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Monday, September 8, 2008 at 3:13:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.

____
I prefer single handle(sinks and tubs) because I
am terribly dyslexic and always grab hot for cold
faucet or vice versa. But to deny someone a two-
handle setup is just communist, if you axe me!

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

Someone other than HerHusband asked:


Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

Yes, per the site linked to below, they do exist. I quote, but offer no examples:

"Some types of tankless water heaters are thermostatically controlled; they can vary their output temperature according to the water flow rate and inlet temperature."


I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

Not so. Flow Rate is known drawback of tankless WH. Well, maybe not a drawback, per se, but a key factor in sizing a unit. It's a drawback in the sense that you may need to purchase a bigger/more expensive unit based of your flow rate/temperature rise requirements.

The more flow you demand, the lower the water temp at the output because the water is not in "contact" with the burners for as long a time.

Granted, flow rate will impact a tank heater also in that you will run out of 120 degree water sooner with a higher flow rate, but the difference is that regardless of how many showers you turn on, you *will* get 120 degree water out of the tank for some period of time. With a tankless heater, you may never get 120 degree water if the flow rate outpaces the heater's ability to impart the required temperature rise.

From: http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...w-water-heater

SIZING TANKLESS OR DEMAND-TYPE WATER HEATERS
Tankless or demand-type water heaters are rated by the maximum temperature rise possible at a given flow rate. Therefore, to size a demand water heater, you need to determine the flow rate and the temperature rise you'll need for its application (whole house or a remote application, such as just a bathroom) in your home.

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 9:07:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, September 8, 2008 at 3:13:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.

____
I prefer single handle(sinks and tubs) because I
am terribly dyslexic and always grab hot for cold
faucet or vice versa. But to deny someone a two-
handle setup is just communist, if you axe me!

Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner:

If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended?

9:33 AMDerbyDad03 wrote:
"- show quoted text -
Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner:

If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended? "

Sometimes.

wrote:

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.


Depends on which version of the UPC your area is using. Best to call your local
code office:

http://mcadamsplumbing.com/two-three...ucets-illegal/

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
A better answer is more money than brains.
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

Probably true.

But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. Water is cheap in the US but that isn't true everywhere. We had a tankless in Germany for the kitchen, based on not wasting water (kitchen was a long way from the boiler).

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
A better answer is more money than brains.
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended)

"More money than brains"

The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity.

If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second.

We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots.

Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid.

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:01:11 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

Probably true.

But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings.

It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared.

Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-)

-On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:23:24 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.
--------------------------------------------------------
If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
A better answer is more money than brains.
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended)

"More money than brains"

The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity.

If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second.

We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots.

Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid.

+1
And so typical. In another thread, Clare calls for me to be
censored, but he goes around slamming people as having no brains
because they might choose a tankless.

I could see it as being useful in a vacation property or a rental
property for example. If you only go there a few days a week,
it's not maintaining a tank of hot water. And for vacation rental
properties, same thing. When the renters show up, they have hot
water.

On 7/9/2015 10:36 PM, HerHusband wrote:
Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either.

Wrong.

The temperature of the water out of tank model is constant regardless of
the flow rate. Sure you can drain it faster than it can re-heat the
water if the flow rate is very high, but that is not the normal case in
a properly sized tank heater.

A tankless model could mix cold water with hot water at lower flow rates
to keep the output temperature constant (rather than trying to adjust
the flame intensity. Maybe some do this.

On 7/10/2015 10:23 AM, wrote:

In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

That is true, but people put in tankless water heaters for other
reasons. Someone mentioned a vacation home where they didn't want a tank
heater constantly cooling and re-heating.

On 7/10/2015 12:23 PM, wrote:

In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.


Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!

And here's what those tankless fanboys never want to talk about.
What happens when the tankless controls fail (and they will) during a shower?
Suddenly (with no warning) you find yourself rinsing shampoo out of your hair in 50 degree Fahrenheit water.

No thanks, I'll keep my cheap tank style heater.

And FWIW, I have a 50 gal natural gas water heater and I have NEVER run out of hot water.

On 7/10/2015 2:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared.

Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-)


There are other ways to get there aside from tankless. My old oil fired
boiler would keep up forever but it was not very efficient. Most
electric water heaters have a first hour rating of 50 or 60 gallons. My
indirect fired tank has a rating of about 250 gallons. It is 40% better
on oil than my old setup.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

Probably true.

But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. Water is cheap in the US but that isn't true everywhere. We had a tankless in Germany for the kitchen, based on not wasting water (kitchen was a long way from the boiler).
Water isn't cheap here either - but unless it is a big house and the
heater is at the wrong end, unless it is a very high quality unit it
will still not last long enought to pay for itself - and even then, a
unit of high enough quality to last that long will cost so much it
STILL won't pay for itself.

It's just about the APPEARANCE of being "green"

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
you'll get cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com
A better answer is more money than brains.
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended)

"More money than brains"

The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity.

If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up?

Move to iceland - hot water there truly IS endless - AND free.
I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second.
If I needed endless hot water, perhaps - but I've NEVER run out of hot
water - in a household with 2 daughters, and a standard 40 gallon gas
water heater. Growing up with 7 siblings and a 30 gallon electric
water heater it took some strategic planning.


We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots.

Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid.

mine is a 75 gallon 75,000 btu tank. it supplies endless hot water. my lat tank was 75,000 btu 50 gallons. but they quit making that one..

i know someone who went tankless the entire thing with install cot about 3 grand. and the time to saving money on gas is never

replying to hallerb, Susan Johann wrote:
Mine doesn't allow low flow of hot water or high flow of cold water.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm

replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote:
Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house used
water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too
high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I
don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm

On 1/18/2020 8:14 PM, Susan Johann wrote:
replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote:
Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house
used
water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too
high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I
don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem.


After 13 years the OP can finally finish his renovations. Thanks for
your help

If I lived in that state that outlawed a two-handled faucet, I would consider moving to a different state. The Nanny State needs to be outlawed!!!!!!

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...al-329902-.htm