Quickly looked for a NG to post this but didn't see one. Well, saw one but
it looked like a spammers feeding ground.

Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at night?

Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in. Sometime
in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal msg). Pic is
crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just the same as a
station that doesn't come in at all ever.

All I have in an old indoor antenna I tried just to see if it worked and
was quite surprised with this digital stuff. Most broadcast signals come
from the capitol about 45 air miles from me.

Red Green wrote:
Quickly looked for a NG to post this but didn't see one. Well, saw one but
it looked like a spammers feeding ground.

Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at night?

No, but but radio propagation changes as our general location changes
from light/dark/light.


Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in. Sometime
in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal msg). Pic is
crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just the same as a
station that doesn't come in at all ever.


Thats pretty much how "digital" transmissions work. There are no snowy
or fuzzy pictures. It is all or nothing.



All I have in an old indoor antenna I tried just to see if it worked and
was quite surprised with this digital stuff. Most broadcast signals come
from the capitol about 45 air miles from me.

George wrote:
Red Green wrote:
....
Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at night?

No, ...

That's "no, as in TV stations don't do the FCC-mandated lower power at
sundown radio thing" to remove any possible ambiguity...

....

Thats pretty much how "digital" transmissions work. There are no snowy
or fuzzy pictures. It is all or nothing.

And I'm expecting we'll have the latter when the transition
occurs--nothing. We're on extreme fringe relying on translators already
so we'll be back to the dark ages of the 30's again.

--

On Sun 03 Aug 2008 06:38:28a, Red Green told us...

Quickly looked for a NG to post this but didn't see one. Well, saw one
but
it looked like a spammers feeding ground.

You might post your question to rec.antiques.radio+phono. There are a lot
of experts in that group, and I'm sure you'll get some answers.

Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at night?

Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in.
Sometime
in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal msg). Pic is
crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just the same as a
station that doesn't come in at all ever.

All I have in an old indoor antenna I tried just to see if it worked and
was quite surprised with this digital stuff. Most broadcast signals come
from the capitol about 45 air miles from me.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Saturday, 08(VIII)/02(II)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Don't start an argument with somebody
who has a microphone when you don't;
they'll make you look like chopped
liver. --Harlan Ellison, on hecklers
-------------------------------------------

Red,

No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

Dave M.

Red,

No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

Dave M.

Yeah; we get just the opposite he The analog stations stop at 11 or
12 but the digital stays on. Doesn't matter what's on, they'll go off
even in mid-commercial.

Digital signals are just not capable of transmitting as far as analog
due to the interference that distorts the signal, where on analog you
could still get a watchable picture and sound. We're on the fringes
here; I added 30 dB of amplification to mine and still don't get good
service on digital.

"George" wrote in message
. ..
Red Green wrote:


Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in.
Sometime in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal
msg). Pic is crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just
the same as a station that doesn't come in at all ever.


Thats pretty much how "digital" transmissions work. There are no snowy or
fuzzy pictures. It is all or nothing.

I am getting some digital and some HD signals via cable. I have not
subscribed to the full menu of HD programming so these HD channels are from
local stations that are also on the air. I only receive them via the cable.

On these local channels I get receive some of them three ways
Good old analog, digital at standard resolution and digital high definition

I have had occasion to get pixelated displays. I have no clue as to where
the problem lies. The analog signals look clean but the digital ones
sometimes get pixelated. Not often but it can happen.

Charlie

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 12:10:37 -0700, "Charlie"
wrote:

[snip]

I have had occasion to get pixelated displays. I have no clue as to where
the problem lies. The analog signals look clean but the digital ones
sometimes get pixelated. Not often but it can happen.

Charlie


Yes, digital signals can be pixilated. I suppose some of those who
claim it's impossible just haven't seen it themselves (limited
experience) and the rest are repeating something they heard, without
thinking.

The statement that digital either works 100% or not at all, is true
ONLY when you ignore time. Signal strength can vary considerably over
a short period of time, repeatedly crossing the threshold of giving a
good picture. This produces pixellation.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

"TWayne" wrote in message
...
Red,

No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

Dave M.

Yeah; we get just the opposite he The analog stations stop at 11 or 12
but the digital stays on. Doesn't matter what's on, they'll go off even
in mid-commercial.

Digital signals are just not capable of transmitting as far as analog due
to the interference that distorts the signal, where on analog you could
still get a watchable picture and sound. We're on the fringes here; I
added 30 dB of amplification to mine and still don't get good service on
digital.
These are just some observations from me trying the digital converter boxes.
At first, I thought we were completely hosed out here. It's an uncabled
area, and we're in a hole with no clear view in any direction but East, so
satellite won't work either, even though it does next door.

Last week, trying again, and getting frustrated, I set the box to scan, and
it found eight channels, or so it said. When I went to watch, there was
either nothing (no signal) except with one station where it was all
pixillated. I put the remote down, and picked up the tv remote to turn the
set off, and suddenly I was looking at a perfect picture. I put the tv
remote back down, and the set went to no signal. Pick up the remote again,
and it worked. I put the tv remote down somewhere else, and picked up the
converter remote, and I did indeed have 8 channels, and they all work fine.
I'm not sure what interference the tv remote puts on the converter, but the
converter on top of the tv set is the only logical flat space, so it's a
matter of reconditioning myself now.

I should note that, with the hills around us, we had strong reception, for a
couple of channels, but lots of copies of each, so it's never been fun to
watch regular broadcasts with all the shadowing we get.

I thought I'd replace the rooftop antenna with something new instead of
using rabbit ears, but even that is hard to find now.

It's the brave new world, and I don't care anymore. 25 yrs without reliable
tv has weaned me.

Keith

Mark Lloyd wrote in
:

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 12:10:37 -0700, "Charlie"
wrote:

[snip]

I have had occasion to get pixelated displays. I have no clue as to
where the problem lies. The analog signals look clean but the digital
ones sometimes get pixelated. Not often but it can happen.

Charlie


Yes, digital signals can be pixilated. I suppose some of those who
claim it's impossible just haven't seen it themselves (limited
experience) and the rest are repeating something they heard, without
thinking.

The statement that digital either works 100% or not at all, is true
ONLY when you ignore time. Signal strength can vary considerably over
a short period of time, repeatedly crossing the threshold of giving a
good picture. This produces pixellation.

Oh I've seen pixelated if what we are calling the same name. The pic
sortta freezes and the "squares" (much larger than a pixel on a PC) are
jumbled. I usually see this on what appears to be a weak signal.
Sometimes it will go back to normal, sometimes it goes black screen &
sometimes the cheapo CRT TV goes blue screen and displays like Unusable
Signal.

If they don't reduce the wattage they send out (actually I've seen it
happen a bit before 11 and as late as 12:30am), I wonder what causes it
kind of regularly.

I really don't watch much TV at all and that's why I don't bother getting
cable. I was up in VT for many years and broadcast reception was
virtually non existent. This digital broadcast reception being near a
major city is like reliving childhood in the tri-state NY, NJ, CT area
only with color and more stations than 2-13.

I may just try putting some kind of cheapo small outdoor multi-
directional antenna up without going to the old winged thing. The chimney
is right near where the TV is and on the correct side of the house facing
the direction antennaweb.org says to point it. Duct tape should work :-)
Getting it outside and up 20ft might do wonders...or I may wonder why it
doesn't do anything different.

Red...

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:44:38 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

Red,

No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

Might be able to find out just be calling, without writing, but
writing is good.

Dave M.

Yeah; we get just the opposite he The analog stations stop at 11 or
12 but the digital stays on. Doesn't matter what's on, they'll go off
even in mid-commercial.

Digital signals are just not capable of transmitting as far as analog
due to the interference that distorts the signal,

You're saying that interference distorts the digital signal too? I
don't think so.

where on analog you
could still get a watchable picture and sound. We're on the fringes
here; I added 30 dB of amplification to mine and still don't get good
service on digital.

I've heard that digital signals are not transmitting at full power and
won't until next February, but I can't confirm this. I also have no
idea what fraction of full power they might be at.

I'm also not sure that full power is as much power as analog
transmitters use, because generally it's not necessary. Even a weak
digital signal will give great reception if it's strong enough.
But it doesn't halep to make it stronger.

Still, I think if they don't use as much power, I keep thinking some
people, like me and you won't get reception at all from stations more
than say 45 miles away.

Line-of-sight issues make it unlikely to get reception past 50 miles,
but a tall antenna, on a hill, and living on a hill increase those
distances. Unlike AM radio, TV doesn't bounce off the ionosphere, or
whatever, so it won't go around the world like short wave.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:38:52 -0500, Red Green
wrote:


I may just try putting some kind of cheapo small outdoor multi-
directional antenna up without going to the old winged thing. The chimney

I have a townhouse and I'm just using a 5 foot piece of wire lying on
the floor behind my DVDR. I get all the Baltimore stations, where I
live, but not the DC stations 50 miles away. I have to fix the attic
amplified antenna, or at least run a wire up to the attic and see how
that does.

is right near where the TV is and on the correct side of the house facing
the direction antennaweb.org says to point it. Duct tape should work :-)
Getting it outside and up 20ft might do wonders...or I may wonder why it
doesn't do anything different.

In article ,
mm wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:38:52 -0500, Red Green
wrote:


I may just try putting some kind of cheapo small outdoor multi-
directional antenna up without going to the old winged thing. The chimney

I have a townhouse and I'm just using a 5 foot piece of wire lying on
the floor behind my DVDR. I get all the Baltimore stations, where I
live, but not the DC stations 50 miles away. I have to fix the attic
amplified antenna, or at least run a wire up to the attic and see how
that does.


With the priviso that I am not an engineer and basing this solely on
some hazy memories from my Short Wave Listening days about 40 years ago..
Have you tried changing the orientation of the wire? If it is (for
instance) now running north and south, have you tried to see what
happens if it runs east to wst?

Red Green wrote in
:

Quickly looked for a NG to post this but didn't see one. Well, saw one
but it looked like a spammers feeding ground.

Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at
night?

Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in.
Sometime in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal
msg). Pic is crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just
the same as a station that doesn't come in at all ever.

All I have in an old indoor antenna I tried just to see if it worked
and was quite surprised with this digital stuff. Most broadcast
signals come from the capitol about 45 air miles from me.

some OTA digital stations transmit on UHF freqs,and they are susceptible to
shifts in the ionosphere that occur after dark.
try an amplified indoor antenna,or mount a bigger antenna and booster in
the attic.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:15:54 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:44:38 -0400, "TWayne"
wrote:

Red,

No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

Might be able to find out just be calling, without writing, but
writing is good.

Dave M.

Yeah; we get just the opposite he The analog stations stop at 11 or
12 but the digital stays on. Doesn't matter what's on, they'll go off
even in mid-commercial.

Digital signals are just not capable of transmitting as far as analog
due to the interference that distorts the signal,

You're saying that interference distorts the digital signal too? I
don't think so.


I would expect the difference would have to do with the carrier
frequency used. That has nothing to do with it being digital.

where on analog you
could still get a watchable picture and sound. We're on the fringes
here; I added 30 dB of amplification to mine and still don't get good
service on digital.

I've heard that digital signals are not transmitting at full power and
won't until next February, but I can't confirm this. I also have no
idea what fraction of full power they might be at.


This seems to be true, at least for one local station here. I can't
receive it (the digital version) now even though I should be close
enough. Perhaps the station is using a lower power transmitter and
will switch to its higher powered one next year. According to
antennaweb.org, it will also be returning to its former channel (7,
digital currently on 10) then.

I'm also not sure that full power is as much power as analog
transmitters use, because generally it's not necessary. Even a weak
digital signal will give great reception if it's strong enough.
But it doesn't halep to make it stronger.

Still, I think if they don't use as much power, I keep thinking some
people, like me and you won't get reception at all from stations more
than say 45 miles away.

Line-of-sight issues make it unlikely to get reception past 50 miles,
but a tall antenna, on a hill, and living on a hill increase those
distances.

Those 2 sentences above seem contradictory.

Unlike AM radio, TV doesn't bounce off the ionosphere, or
whatever, so it won't go around the world like short wave.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

On 4 Aug 2008 12:53:30 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

Red Green wrote in
:

Quickly looked for a NG to post this but didn't see one. Well, saw one
but it looked like a spammers feeding ground.

Anyone know if regular TV airwave broadcasting power is reduced at
night?

Seems during the day a bunch of free digital TV stations come in.
Sometime in the evening around 11pm-12am they all go away (no signal
msg). Pic is crystal clear when it comes in. When they disappear, just
the same as a station that doesn't come in at all ever.

All I have in an old indoor antenna I tried just to see if it worked
and was quite surprised with this digital stuff. Most broadcast
signals come from the capitol about 45 air miles from me.

some OTA digital stations transmit on UHF freqs,

I suspect most do.

and they are susceptible to
shifts in the ionosphere that occur after dark.
try an amplified indoor antenna,or mount a bigger antenna and booster in
the attic.

Note that an amplifier will not help unless you have a clean signal at
the antenna input.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 08:29:09 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
mm wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:38:52 -0500, Red Green
wrote:


I may just try putting some kind of cheapo small outdoor multi-
directional antenna up without going to the old winged thing. The chimney

I have a townhouse and I'm just using a 5 foot piece of wire lying on
the floor behind my DVDR. I get all the Baltimore stations, where I
live, but not the DC stations 50 miles away. I have to fix the attic
amplified antenna, or at least run a wire up to the attic and see how
that does.


With the priviso that I am not an engineer and basing this solely on
some hazy memories from my Short Wave Listening days about 40 years ago..
Have you tried changing the orientation of the wire? If it is (for
instance) now running north and south, have you tried to see what
happens if it runs east to wst?

That's a good idea for the poster before me.

For me, not yet. A) I"v heard the digital stations are not
broadcasting on full power until next February, so I'm thinking after
they start, I may get DC stations without my doing anything.

B) My bedroom is crowded.

c) I'm hoping to find some little problem with, or replace the
amplified antenna in the attic**. That points pretty much south and
can easily be turned. You're right the wire in my bedroom goes
east-west.

d) I have a lot of experience in this location, and the only thing I
don't know is if I digital signals will give different results.
Right now I'm still using analog if only because channel surfing is a
lot faster. (I barely care about picture quality. I don't know why I
don't care.)

**I replaced it once and now I think the one I disconnected still
works. I may go back to it. At a rummage sale I bought one that
rotates. I think it works. And maybe I'll find that mice at the wire
or something. I don't feel like going up into the attic now. I have
to get up early before it gets hot up there.

dpb wrote:

And I'm expecting we'll have the latter when the transition
occurs--nothing. We're on extreme fringe relying on translators already
so we'll be back to the dark ages of the 30's again.

--

Translator stations are not required to to switch to digital (as yet).

Jerry

the digital transmitter power levels are way lower than analog, its
highly possible you wouldnt be able to see the digital version since
most are UHF which doesnt propogate as well.

the stations kinda like digital it will cut their electric bill

Jerry wrote:
dpb wrote:
And I'm expecting we'll have the latter when the transition
occurs--nothing. We're on extreme fringe relying on translators already
so we'll be back to the dark ages of the 30's again.

--

Translator stations are not required to to switch to digital (as yet).

AFAIK it depends on their power -- and as far as what I've been able to
glean from the central stations these are switching, too...but, I'd be
more than happy to learn otherwise.

--

* *No, They don't decrease transmission power at 11:00PM. Write to the
offending stations. My guess is they stop programming at 11:00.

That was my first guess too.

dpb wrote:
Jerry wrote:

Translator stations are not required to to switch to digital (as yet).

AFAIK it depends on their power -- and as far as what I've been able to
glean from the central stations these are switching, too...but, I'd be
more than happy to learn otherwise.


Look here (http://www.dtv.gov/DTV_booklet.pdf) on page 5 at the
paragraph titled "DTV Why Now". They haven't even set a deadline for
low-power and translator stations yet.

And here (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/DTVandLPTV.html) is an
FCC document that directly addresses low-power and translator
stations.

A neighboring cabin near mine in Flagstaff AZ is owned by the chief
engineer of Channel 10 and Channel 45 in Phoenix (incidentally, he has
the best TV reception in the area, walked his roof with a portable
spectrum analyzer while deciding where to position his antenna). He's
got his hands full just transitioning his full-power stations. They
haven't even started thinking about the repeaters around the state yet
- well, maybe thinking but not doing yet. I imagine equipment budget
has a lot to do with it. That, and there's no hard deadline.

Jerry

Jerry wrote:

dpb wrote:
Jerry wrote:

Translator stations are not required to to switch to digital (as yet).
AFAIK it depends on their power -- and as far as what I've been able to
glean from the central stations these are switching, too...but, I'd be
more than happy to learn otherwise.


Look here (http://www.dtv.gov/DTV_booklet.pdf) on page 5 at the
paragraph titled "DTV Why Now". They haven't even set a deadline for
low-power and translator stations yet.

And here (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/DTVandLPTV.html) is an
FCC document that directly addresses low-power and translator
stations.

A neighboring cabin near mine in Flagstaff AZ is owned by the chief
engineer of Channel 10 and Channel 45 in Phoenix (incidentally, he has
the best TV reception in the area, walked his roof with a portable
spectrum analyzer while deciding where to position his antenna).


and I bet he came up with putting the antenna on the side of the house
closest to the transmitters and out of the way as possible from any
trees or other obstructions?.

Jerry wrote:
....
And here (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/DTVandLPTV.html) is an
FCC document that directly addresses low-power and translator
stations.

I repeat these are _not_ LP translators -- they're as strong (or
stronger) than the metro stations for which they translate -- we're
located almost 70 miles from the nearest--LP don't cut it.

That document also notes over 2000 have committed to DTV in the class
despite the lack of a mandate under which they could apparently escape
if they were to choose to do so. The point is, it's apparently their
call which way to go.

A neighboring cabin near mine in Flagstaff AZ is owned by the chief
engineer of Channel 10 and Channel 45 in Phoenix (incidentally, he has
the best TV reception in the area, walked his roof with a portable
spectrum analyzer while deciding where to position his antenna). He's
got his hands full just transitioning his full-power stations. They
haven't even started thinking about the repeaters around the state yet
- well, maybe thinking but not doing yet. I imagine equipment budget
has a lot to do with it. That, and there's no hard deadline.

What that particular station has decided to do has nothing whatever to
do w/ what these have decided; which afaik is still to make the
switchover of them at the same time based on the information they're
putting out on their plans and the conversion.

--