Hi



Last year my parents hired a higher end painting company to repaint their
entire interior. They got a good price but it was still a bit expensive.



I managed the job and let the workers in every day. The lead guy in the
crew would call me every morning to let them in.



I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. He came by and we discussed the work.



He would do the job on the side on weekends.



He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.



So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \



OR pay him man-hours. I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.



Any ideas?



In the sf bay area people are hurting for work, I want to be fair, however
there are lots of people hungry for work.

On Thu 24 Jul 2008 09:40:52p, Tube Audio told us...

Hi



Last year my parents hired a higher end painting company to repaint their
entire interior. They got a good price but it was still a bit expensive.



I managed the job and let the workers in every day. The lead guy in the
crew would call me every morning to let them in.



I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. He came by and we discussed the work.



He would do the job on the side on weekends.



He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. He said
he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.



So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out
and
manage how many guys he uses? \



OR pay him man-hours. I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.



Any ideas?



In the sf bay area people are hurting for work, I want to be fair,
however
there are lots of people hungry for work.




I learned the hard way about paying by the hour for a "total job". I would
definitely recommend asking for a total job price, whether you or they
provide the paint. This way, no matter how long it takes, it's still one
price.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Thursday, 07(VII)/24(XXIV)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Programming is an unnatural act.
-------------------------------------------

On Jul 24, 11:40*pm, "Tube Audio" wrote:
Hi

Last year my parents hired a higher end painting company to repaint their
entire interior. *They got a good price but it was still a bit expensive.

I managed the job and let the workers in every day. *The lead guy in the
crew would call me every morning to let them in.

I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. *He came by and we discussed the work.

He would do the job on the side on weekends.

He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. *He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. *Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

OR pay him man-hours. *I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.

Any ideas?

In the sf bay area people are hurting for work, I want to be fair, however
there are lots of people hungry for work.

Pay for the job not by the hour or his brush will be minature and he
wont have any incenive to finish till the snow falls, and get other
bids, dont just go with this guy blindly.

"Tube Audio" wrote

I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. He came by and we discussed the work.
He would do the job on the side on weekends.

He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.

I think what he's telling you here is he knows how many total manhours he
needs, but may not be sure how many crew he will have each day. For
example, weekend #1 he might have him and 2 helpers, weekend 2 he may have
him and 3, then touchup weekend he may have him and 1 plus a fellow who can
only work 4 hours on saturday afternoon.

$13/hr is not at all bad. Special detail painting at $22/hr isnt bad
either.

Things I'd discuss. Insurance. All workers insured by him? (Have this
written in the contract!!!). While there will be some variation in how long
it takes, a total price should be something he can work out. Very likely he
already has but your arrangments might be to pay at the end of each day for
that day's work (I've seen this, it is not a terrible thing as long as you
understand it in advance and would well explain how he presented the costs
if so). There might be a little variation but he can write a contract that
says '22 for him, 13 for the others, and total will not exceed x'. If the
does that, he may add a rider that it will not be 'under x' (fair in this
case) which means if he finishes faster, you owe more than the pure 22/13
set.

Case in point, our brick BBQ being looked over. The fellow came out to
estimate it early (was here in the area and came to the door). Turns out
until he gets into the job, he cant tell if he can fix it. So, he's writing
up 3 options.

1- Turns out can fix it, hourly rate used, estimates 3-10 hours (can not
tell til he starts and very probably will have to come back after one part
sets to work the next part so looking at multiple trips). He won't get less
than 3 hours wages even if it takes him 1 hour, nor will he charge more than
10 hours if it takes him 14.

2- Can not fix it, this may be discovered when trying to fix it (still owe
time for factor 1). Cost stable on how much demolishing the existing
structure will be plus removal of bricks etc. Fully insured guy does it but
no set 'how long' (warned he's not super fast but it's hot sweaty work and
doesnt matter pricewise to us if it takes him 2 days if it's hot and he
needs to cool down every 30 mins or so).

3- Rebuild structure. Comes with 2 costs, both static totals. 3A is just
to lay a proper cement slab and we roll a grill out there when we want to
use it (have to look into ones that wont rust too fast). 3B is to lay the
cement slab (it doesnt seem to have one? That or the bricks were layed out a
little bigger than it is) then build a new brick unit over that. If we go
3B, he adds no charge to remove any underslab that might be there.

Point here is the work can have flavors to it. If we try 1 and it doesnt
work, we owe 2 plus 3A or 3B. If we opt right away for 3A or 3B, we owe #2.

I'd say ask the fellow what the details are. If you do not ask, you wont
have the level of detail we have here on this simple brick BBQ job.

On Jul 25, 6:07*am, "cshenk" wrote:
"Tube Audio" wrote

I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. *He came by and we discussed the work.
He would do the job on the side on weekends.
He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. *He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.

I think what he's telling you here is he knows how many total manhours he
needs, but may not be sure how many crew he will have each day. *For
example, weekend #1 he might have him and 2 helpers, weekend 2 he may have
him and 3, then touchup weekend he may have him and 1 plus a fellow who can
only work 4 hours on saturday afternoon.

$13/hr is not at all bad. *Special detail painting at $22/hr isnt bad
either.

Things I'd discuss. *Insurance. *All workers insured by him? *(Have this
written in the contract!!!). *While there will be some variation in how long
it takes, a total price should be something he can work out. *Very likely he
already has but your arrangments might be to pay at the end of each day for
that day's work (I've seen this, it is not a terrible thing as long as you
understand it in advance and would well explain how he presented the costs
if so). *There might be a little variation but he can write a contract that
says '22 for him, 13 for the others, and total will not exceed x'. *If the
does that, he may add a rider that it will not be 'under x' (fair in this
case) which means if he finishes faster, you owe more than the pure 22/13
set.

Case in point, our brick BBQ being looked over. *The fellow came out to
estimate it early (was here in the area and came to the door). Turns out
until he gets into the job, he cant tell if he can fix it. *So, he's writing
up 3 options.

1- Turns out can fix it, hourly rate used, estimates 3-10 hours (can not
tell til he starts and very probably will have to come back after one part
sets to work the next part so looking at multiple trips). *He won't get less
than 3 hours wages even if it takes him 1 hour, nor will he charge more than
10 hours if it takes him 14.

2- Can not fix it, this may be discovered when trying to fix it (still owe
time for factor 1). *Cost stable on how much demolishing the existing
structure will be plus removal of bricks etc. *Fully insured guy does it but
no set 'how long' (warned he's not super fast but it's hot sweaty work and
doesnt matter pricewise to us if it takes him 2 days if it's hot and he
needs to cool down every 30 mins or so).

3- Rebuild structure. *Comes with 2 costs, both static totals. *3A is just
to lay a proper cement slab and we roll a grill out there when we want to
use it (have to look into ones that wont rust too fast). *3B is to lay the
cement slab (it doesnt seem to have one? That or the bricks were layed out a
little bigger than it is) then build a new brick unit over that. If we go
3B, he adds no charge to remove any underslab that might be there.

Point here is the work can have flavors to it. *If we try 1 and it doesnt
work, we owe 2 plus 3A or 3B. *If we opt right away for 3A or 3B, we owe #2.

I'd say ask the fellow what the details are. *If you do not ask, you wont
have the level of detail we have here on this simple brick BBQ job.

Its not a hidden problem job, going T&M opens him to whatever the
painter wants, its stupid, the painter will have no incentive to work
hard and fast. He can sleep all day and get paid.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:40:52 -0700, "Tube Audio"
wrote Re How to pay painter and crew:

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

Do it this way.

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:40:52 -0700, "Tube Audio"
wrote Re How to pay painter and crew:

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

Do it this way.
\
Andy comments:

Good idea. And write it up in a contract, whick ALSO says the
job must be completed in XXX days and that no money is paid
unless the job is completed in XXX days.

When you hire a "complete job" you are paying what the contractor
thinks the "max" is, and considering competitive bids. So it will
probably be higher. However, you know what the answer is.

Also , remember that the contractor will be trying to intermingle
your work with other ongoing work, so that he/she can coordinate
his workers. It may be drawn out for a time. For that reason, you
should have time constraints....

... and don't forget maintenance liens. If he buys material and
doesn't
pay for them, Home Depot (or whoever ) has the ability to place a
lien for the cost of the material against YOU, not him....

Insurance for the worker who are present should be his
responsibility, not yours. Spell this out in the contract, or you
can
lose your house if some dufus falls off your roof.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On Jul 25, 8:35*am, Andy wrote:
Caesar Romano wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:40:52 -0700, "Tube Audio"
wrote Re How to pay painter and crew:

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. *Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

Do it this way.

\
Andy comments:

* Good idea. And write it up in a contract, whick ALSO says the
job must be completed in XXX days and that no money is paid
unless the job is completed in XXX days.

* *When you hire a "complete job" you are paying what the contractor
thinks the "max" is, and considering competitive bids. So it will
probably be higher. *However, you know what the answer is.

* * Also , remember that the contractor will be trying to intermingle
your work with other ongoing work, so that he/she can coordinate
his workers. *It may be drawn out for a time. *For that reason, you
should have time constraints....

* *... and don't forget maintenance liens. *If he buys material and
doesn't
pay for them, *Home Depot (or whoever ) has the ability to place a
lien for the cost of the material against YOU, not him....

* * *Insurance for the worker who are present should be his
responsibility, not yours. * Spell this out in the contract, or you
can
lose your house if some dufus falls off your roof.....

* * * * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas

Almost nothing in your post is applicable to the OP's situation.
The guy he's talking to is the foreman for a painting crew, not a
contractor.
He will not be licensed (presumably required in CA).
He will not have insurance.
He will be "intermingling" the OP's work with his full time job.

R

On Jul 24, 11:40*pm, "Tube Audio" wrote:
Hi

Last year my parents hired a higher end painting company to repaint their
entire interior. *They got a good price but it was still a bit expensive.

I managed the job and let the workers in every day. *The lead guy in the
crew would call me every morning to let them in.

I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. *He came by and we discussed the work.

He would do the job on the side on weekends.

He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. *He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. *Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

OR pay him man-hours. *I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.

Any ideas?

In the sf bay area people are hurting for work, I want to be fair, however
there are lots of people hungry for work.

Are you going to paint also, a contractor can get a big discount on
paint you cant get. I see what could end up is inferior work, failing
in a few years, at a higher price from what you are looking at if you
just contract out. If doing the best for cheapest is the objective
then get bids to know where to start. If an owner of a home proposed
that to me, to do work with me I would turn him down because he would
not have the experiance to be paid what he likely felt he was worth,
also he would waste my time nitpicking and teaching him. I envision
an argument. Hire guys T&M with you not knowing everything about
painting sounds like a recipe for big problems you cant forsee. If you
contracted the job and the paint co owner hired you as a tryout at min
wage, it might work. You need a pro, to guarantee his work and be
lisenced and insured, you are not, and I have had claims that would
break you, like ruining an AC, a fire, injuries, ruining 20000.00 in
carpet. You want to be the general in charge, and get paid to learn,
but you are not ready for this. It takes years of experiance to be
able to walk up to a job a know a slacker from from 50 ft away, and
know what is not quality and know how how to not take bs from them.
T&M could double your cost. A common joke is a painter says he needs a
1/4" exterior brush, the salesperson at the paintstore says, I see you
are working T&M again.

"Tube Audio" wrote in message
news

He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.



So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \



I had the exterior of my house painted and it took two guys to do so. They
painted a neighbors house and I liked the looks, therefore, requested a
quote, which they provided right there. Then I asked when they can do it. It
was all done by spraying in a day and a half. Therefore, my point is, unless
your house is huge, why would he need so many men?

Consider having it sprayed and settle for a bottom line price, as others
have stated. If he's experienced, then he knows how much it'll cost.

"cshenk" wrote in message
He came by and we discussed the work.
He would do the job on the side on weekends.



Things I'd discuss. Insurance. All workers insured by him? I'd say ask
the fellow what the details are. If you do not ask, you wont have the
level of detail we have here on this simple brick BBQ job.



Discuss? He's doing it as a side job. You can be sure there will not be
any insurance, any written contract, or anything else that a legitimate
contractor will have.

I'd consider it a bonus if he spoke English.

Tube Audio wrote:

....


So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \



OR pay him man-hours. I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.
....
Is this guy a licensed contractor? Or are you just hiring these people
as your employees? Are you planning to make social security tax payments
for them? If they injure themselves, do you have insurance to cover it?
Or will they sue you for your home?
If he claims he is a contractor, you can check it he

http://www2.cslb.ca.gov/General-Info...se+request.asp

Useful reading he
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Consumers/HireAContractor/


"In California, there must be a written contract for all home improvement
projects over $500 in labor and materials."

ransley wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:40 pm, "Tube Audio" wrote:
Hi

Last year my parents hired a higher end painting company to repaint their
entire interior. They got a good price but it was still a bit expensive.

I managed the job and let the workers in every day. The lead guy in the
crew would call me every morning to let them in.

I recently called the lead guy and asked him if he would help me paint my
exterior. He came by and we discussed the work.

He would do the job on the side on weekends.

He said he gets $22/ hr and the others in the crew get $13/hr. He said he
would want 1-3 additional people at $13 per hr each.

So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \

OR pay him man-hours. I am afraid if I go this route the job will take
longer and end up paying more.

Any ideas?

In the sf bay area people are hurting for work, I want to be fair, however
there are lots of people hungry for work.

Pay for the job not by the hour or his brush will be minature and he
wont have any incenive to finish till the snow falls, and get other
bids, dont just go with this guy blindly.

Agreed - pay a "deposit" to start the job, one in the middle at a fixed
interval (say 1/2 completion) and then the balance upon completion. Any
contractor who finds this insulting or won't agree to it is trouble.
Reputable contractors work this way all the time.

Think about it - if the guy doesn't have enough liquidity to carry himself
for a few days/weeks - he, and you, are in trouble.

a

RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 25, 8:35 am, Andy wrote:
Caesar Romano wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:40:52 -0700, "Tube Audio"
wrote Re How to pay painter and crew:
So am wondering what is the best way to go forward. Should I settle on a
total price for the job and I pay for the paint and let him figure out and
manage how many guys he uses? \
Do it this way.
\
Andy comments:

Good idea. And write it up in a contract, whick ALSO says the
job must be completed in XXX days and that no money is paid
unless the job is completed in XXX days.

When you hire a "complete job" you are paying what the contractor
thinks the "max" is, and considering competitive bids. So it will
probably be higher. However, you know what the answer is.

Also , remember that the contractor will be trying to intermingle
your work with other ongoing work, so that he/she can coordinate
his workers. It may be drawn out for a time. For that reason, you
should have time constraints....

... and don't forget maintenance liens. If he buys material and
doesn't
pay for them, Home Depot (or whoever ) has the ability to place a
lien for the cost of the material against YOU, not him....

Insurance for the worker who are present should be his
responsibility, not yours. Spell this out in the contract, or you
can
lose your house if some dufus falls off your roof.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

Almost nothing in your post is applicable to the OP's situation.
The guy he's talking to is the foreman for a painting crew, not a
contractor.
He will not be licensed (presumably required in CA).
He will not have insurance.
He will be "intermingling" the OP's work with his full time job.

R

Right - but just because he's not a contractor doesn't mean you can't enter
into a contract with him. You can sign a contract with anybody. Get it in
writing - under the table or not.

a

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:29:43 -0400, "SBH"
wrote:

I had the exterior of my house painted and it took two guys to do so. They
painted a neighbors house and I liked the looks, therefore, requested a
quote, which they provided right there. Then I asked when they can do it. It
was all done by spraying in a day and a half. Therefore, my point is, unless
your house is huge, why would he need so many men?

I surmise these guys did no surface prep to your house before spraying
and also didn't backroll the paint after spraying. Proper surface
preparation takes a lot of labor and time, which adds to the price of
a quote for a more durable paint job. Our paint job cost a couple
thousand $ more than the neighbors', but our painters scraped and
primed thoroughly, and they backrolled all the paint. The house still
looks good (had to scrape, prime, and paint some spots on the southern
and western sides of the house this summer, not unusual because of the
extreme weather), but the neighbors' paint job started peeling by the
fall after the spring painting. You get what you pay for, pretty
much.