My hot water heater is a 21 year old Rheem. It still works and does
not leak. I am planning on replacing it due to the age. I am
planning on having an AO Smith installed.

Today, the technician who gave me an estmate hooked up some type of
gauge to one of the garden hose faucets, and he told me that the
pressure he measured was 115 PSI. My townhouse does not have a PRV
valve. He said that if my pressure was over 125 I would be required to
have a PRV and expansion tank installed in order for the heater to be
replaced. He says that my pressure is high, and if I don't want a PRV
and expansion tank installed, I still have to sign something
indicating I am aware of the high pressure and that it is possible the
T&P valve could drip as a result of the high pressure.

He claims the newer tanks are insulated with foam and the insulation
is tighter which means the water heater tank itself can't expand as
much as older tanks could. (not sure I'm buying that)

QUESTION: If this house is 21 years old, and my old heater is 21
years old, and there hasn't been a problem as a result of the higher
than normal pressure, is it really worth paying another $400 to have
the PRV and expansion tank installed with the new heater? (My mom
lives in same development and does not have a PRV either. A few
other townhouses in my development that I have seen don't have one
either. I believe one of my neighbors does have one though.)

Thanks,

Jay

My hot water heater is a 21 year old Rheem. It still works and does
not leak. I am planning on replacing it due to the age. I am
planning on having an AO Smith installed.

I would check the pressure myself. 115psi is very high. Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. High pressure is
asking for problems.

My pvr allows backflow if the pressure exceeds the supply pressure and I
don't have a backflow prevention valve at the supply; so I didn't need an
expansion tank.
You might, depending on your system; especially with the 115psi supply.

You never had a problem because you were lucky. Don't press it.

On Jul 24, 12:33*pm, JayN wrote:
My hot water heater is a 21 year old Rheem. *It still works and does
not leak. *I am planning on replacing it due to the age. *I am
planning on having an AO Smith installed.

Today, the technician who gave me an estmate hooked up some type of
gauge to one of the garden hose faucets, and he told me that the
pressure he measured was 115 PSI. *My townhouse does not have a PRV
valve. He said that if my pressure was over 125 I would be required to
have a PRV and expansion tank installed in order for the heater to be
replaced. *He says that my pressure is high, and if I don't want a PRV
and expansion tank installed, I still have to sign something
indicating I am aware of the high pressure and that it is possible the
T&P valve could drip as a result of the high pressure.

He claims the newer tanks are insulated with foam and the insulation
is tighter which means the water heater tank itself can't expand as
much as older tanks could. *(not sure I'm buying that)

QUESTION: *If this house is 21 years old, and my old heater is 21
years old, and there hasn't been a problem as a result of the higher
than normal pressure, is it really worth paying another $400 to have
the PRV and expansion tank installed with the new heater? * *(My mom
lives in same development and does not have a PRV either. * A few
other townhouses in my development that I have seen don't have one
either. *I believe one of my neighbors does have one though.)

Thanks,

Jay

I borrow a pressure gage from the hardware store (or buy one for $10)
to double check that reading.

My neighborhood has ~70 psi & when I re-piped I put one in to drop the
pressure to 65......

yeah not much of a change but water hammer specialist suggest keep the
inlet pressure at 65 or less.


why replace w/h because of age? how long do your neighbors' last?

I'd wait until it leaks (unless it's where even a small leak would be
bad)

If you do the w/h & the PRV all together you should get a better price
than $400 for the "add-on" of the PRV. While he's there I it would
take another hour or so.

He claims the newer tanks are insulated with foam and the insulation
is tighter which means the water heater tank itself can't expand as
much as older tanks could. (not sure I'm buying that)

huh? the foam is strong enough to restrict the expansion?

cheers
Bob

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:32:23 -0400, "jack" wrote:

I would check the pressure myself. 115psi is very high. Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. High pressure is
asking for problems.

Yep. A home inspector; in his report, said pressure was to high and
that I needed a PRV.

I took several readings over a day to find the average pressure.
Keeping in mind (city water) the pressures dropped in the area after
folks came home and started using water for meals, bathing, etc...

I even challenged the inspector's gauge about accuracy. We were only
talking little difference so the house would sell....

On Jul 24, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:32:23 -0400, "jack" wrote:
I would check the pressure myself. *115psi is very high. *Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. *High pressure is
asking for problems.

Yep. A home inspector; in his report, said pressure was to high and
that I needed a PRV.

I took several readings over a day to find the average pressure.
Keeping in mind (city water) the pressures dropped in the area after
folks came home and started using water for meals, bathing, etc...

I even challenged the inspector's gauge about accuracy. We were only
talking little difference so the house would sell....

In the area where I live, the hose faucet on the front of homes does
not run through the PRV or through the cutoff valve for the whole
home. Double check your pressure on another hose faucet. You need
that PRV because incoming water pressure may spike occaisionally. To
get back to the original thread, if I had a 21 year old water heater
and money was not an issue, I would replace it now. Flooded houses
are no fun and a new heater will be much more efficient.

AT 115 you should have one. You could however put it in yourself for about
$40.

s


"JayN" wrote in message
...
My hot water heater is a 21 year old Rheem. It still works and does
not leak. I am planning on replacing it due to the age. I am
planning on having an AO Smith installed.

Today, the technician who gave me an estmate hooked up some type of
gauge to one of the garden hose faucets, and he told me that the
pressure he measured was 115 PSI. My townhouse does not have a PRV
valve. He said that if my pressure was over 125 I would be required to
have a PRV and expansion tank installed in order for the heater to be
replaced. He says that my pressure is high, and if I don't want a PRV
and expansion tank installed, I still have to sign something
indicating I am aware of the high pressure and that it is possible the
T&P valve could drip as a result of the high pressure.

He claims the newer tanks are insulated with foam and the insulation
is tighter which means the water heater tank itself can't expand as
much as older tanks could. (not sure I'm buying that)

QUESTION: If this house is 21 years old, and my old heater is 21
years old, and there hasn't been a problem as a result of the higher
than normal pressure, is it really worth paying another $400 to have
the PRV and expansion tank installed with the new heater? (My mom
lives in same development and does not have a PRV either. A few
other townhouses in my development that I have seen don't have one
either. I believe one of my neighbors does have one though.)

Thanks,

Jay

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:55:37 -0700 (PDT), greg2468
wrote:

On Jul 24, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:32:23 -0400, "jack" wrote:
I would check the pressure myself. *115psi is very high. *Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. *High pressure is
asking for problems.

Yep. A home inspector; in his report, said pressure was to high and
that I needed a PRV.

I took several readings over a day to find the average pressure.
Keeping in mind (city water) the pressures dropped in the area after
folks came home and started using water for meals, bathing, etc...

I even challenged the inspector's gauge about accuracy. We were only
talking little difference so the house would sell....

In the area where I live, the hose faucet on the front of homes does
not run through the PRV or through the cutoff valve for the whole
home. Double check your pressure on another hose faucet. You need
that PRV because incoming water pressure may spike occaisionally. To
get back to the original thread, if I had a 21 year old water heater
and money was not an issue, I would replace it now. Flooded houses
are no fun and a new heater will be much more efficient.

I bet his local Permit/Code Dept can tell the OP the real essentials.

I just bought a Watts pressure gauge at home depot and hooked it up
myself. The highest reading I got (from leaving it on maybe as long
as 5 minutes) was 90 PSI. Granted it's still high, but a heck of a
lot lower than 115. I will reconnect it at various times (such as
later tonight around 11pm) to see if the levels change.

I'm a lot more confortable without the PRV if it turns out the usual
overall level is 90 rather than 115. Question is why the plumber got
a reading of 115. I hope is reading was wrong.

Jeff


I would check the pressure myself. *115psi is very high. *Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. *High pressure is
asking for problems.

Question is why the plumber got
a reading of 115. I hope is reading was wrong.
---------------------------
Frankly, I think the guy is either a flake or a fraud.
Water heater never expanded, to claim they did is ridiculous.
I doubt your water pressure was ever 115psi.

Personally I would not want 90 psi, but then I don't have to pay a plumber
to put in a valve.

On Jul 24, 3:22*pm, "Steve Barker DLT"
wrote:
AT 115 you should have one. *You could however put it in yourself for about
$40.

s

"JayN" wrote in message

...



My hot water heater is a 21 year old Rheem. *It still works and does
not leak. *I am planning on replacing it due to the age. *I am
planning on having an AO Smith installed.

Today, the technician who gave me an estmate hooked up some type of
gauge to one of the garden hose faucets, and he told me that the
pressure he measured was 115 PSI. *My townhouse does not have a PRV
valve. He said that if my pressure was over 125 I would be required to
have a PRV and expansion tank installed in order for the heater to be
replaced. *He says that my pressure is high, and if I don't want a PRV
and expansion tank installed, I still have to sign something
indicating I am aware of the high pressure and that it is possible the
T&P valve could drip as a result of the high pressure.

He claims the newer tanks are insulated with foam and the insulation
is tighter which means the water heater tank itself can't expand as
much as older tanks could. *(not sure I'm buying that)

QUESTION: *If this house is 21 years old, and my old heater is 21
years old, and there hasn't been a problem as a result of the higher
than normal pressure, is it really worth paying another $400 to have
the PRV and expansion tank installed with the new heater? * *(My mom
lives in same development and does not have a PRV either. * A few
other townhouses in my development that I have seen don't have one
either. *I believe one of my neighbors does have one though.)

Thanks,

Jay- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep. I find the OPs post to be suspect. Either he misunderstood the
plumber or the plumber is scamming bit time. There is no way a PRV
and expansion tank would cosst $400 even if installed by a plumber.
The tank being unable to expand due to new type consstruction is the
purest BS. Even old typ tanks never expanded enough to accomodate
excessive pressure and the foam packing fro damn sure won't have any
effect either way on tank expansion which is essentially nill in any
case.

Harry K

I'm merely repeating what the plumber told me regarding the new tanks
versus the old tanks.

Anyway, I've had the new Watts pressure gauge, that I just bought,
connected to my hose faucet for an hour 11:05 pm to 12:05 am. The
pressure did touch as high as 98 or 99, according to the red "memory"
needle, but it never got over 100. Also, the pressure did not appear
to staying up at those levels (when I would go out periodically and
observe the meter for a few minutes at a time.) It seemed that
pressure went above 90 it did not stay there very long. There were
times I would see the needle stay around the 90 level, but it would
hover around the 80 level just as frequently if not moreso than
hovering around 90. I'm going to leave the pressure gauge connected
overnight to see how high the red "memory" needle reaches.

So far I'm getting the impression that my water pressure is relatively
high, but is not extraordinarily high. I'm not seeing any reason why
I should have to sign anything indicating that if the T&P valve drips
that the water pressure will be deemed the cause of the drip until I
have a PRV valve installed. Is that standard practice?


Yep. *I find the OPs post to be suspect. *Either he misunderstood the
plumber or the plumber is scamming bit time. *There is no way a PRV
and expansion tank would cosst $400 even if installed by a plumber.
The tank being unable to expand due to new type consstruction is the
purest BS. Even old typ tanks never expanded enough to accomodate
excessive pressure and the foam packing fro damn sure won't have any
effect either way on tank expansion which is essentially nill in any
case.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 24, 9:23*pm, JayN wrote:
I'm merely repeating what the plumber told me regarding the new tanks
versus the old tanks.

Anyway, I've had the new Watts pressure gauge, that I just bought,
connected to my hose faucet for an hour 11:05 pm to 12:05 am. *The
pressure did touch as high as 98 or 99, according to the red "memory"
needle, but it never got over 100. *Also, the pressure did not appear
to staying up at those levels (when I would go out periodically and
observe the meter for a few minutes at a time.) *It seemed that
pressure went above 90 it did not stay there very long. *There were
times I would see the needle stay around the 90 level, *but it would
hover around the 80 level just as frequently if not moreso than
hovering around 90. *I'm going to leave the pressure gauge connected
overnight to see how high the red "memory" needle reaches.

So far I'm getting the impression that my water pressure is relatively
high, but is not extraordinarily high. *I'm not seeing any reason why
I should have to sign anything indicating that if the T&P valve drips
that the water pressure will be deemed the cause of the drip until I
have a PRV valve installed. *Is that standard practice?





Yep. *I find the OPs post to be suspect. *Either he misunderstood the
plumber or the plumber is scamming bit time. *There is no way a PRV
and expansion tank would cosst $400 even if installed by a plumber.
The tank being unable to expand due to new type consstruction is the
purest BS. Even old typ tanks never expanded enough to accomodate
excessive pressure and the foam packing fro damn sure won't have any
effect either way on tank expansion which is essentially nill in any
case.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It sounds like he is trying to void the warantee by having you sign
the statement. I have never heard of that being done. Call a
different plumber and see what they do.

Even 90 without the spikes is too high by far for normal household
appliances. That is hard on all fixtures and especially valves such
as in washing machines and dish washers, sprinkler systems.

The $400 to install one plus surge tank seems high to me.

Harry K

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:23:23 -0700 (PDT), JayN
wrote:

I'm merely repeating what the plumber told me regarding the new tanks
versus the old tanks.

Anyway, I've had the new Watts pressure gauge, that I just bought,
connected to my hose faucet for an hour 11:05 pm to 12:05 am. The
pressure did touch as high as 98 or 99, according to the red "memory"
needle, but it never got over 100. Also, the pressure did not appear
to staying up at those levels (when I would go out periodically and
observe the meter for a few minutes at a time.) It seemed that
pressure went above 90 it did not stay there very long. There were
times I would see the needle stay around the 90 level, but it would
hover around the 80 level just as frequently if not moreso than
hovering around 90. I'm going to leave the pressure gauge connected
overnight to see how high the red "memory" needle reaches.


I don't think it matters how long the needle stays there. I'd be
putting in a pressure reducer. High pressure is going to be hard on a
lot of things, such as toilet valves, etc. Coming home or getting up
to find a wet floor is not pleasant.

So far I've had the gauge connected for over 12 hours. I've still yet
seen the red memory needle get above around 98, and it didn't stay
near there long. The pressure is probably averaging 85 or maybe upper
80s. It's higher than normal, but not extraordinarily high. I'm
wondering why they can't install a Watts PRV valve that allows
backflow rather than bothering with an expansion tank? According to
Watts the ones with a B suffix in the model number allow backflow from
thermal expansion.



It sounds like he is trying to void the warantee by having you sign
the statement. *I have never heard of that being done. * Call a
different plumber and see what they do.

Even 90 without the spikes is too high by far for normal household
appliances. *That is hard on all fixtures and especially valves such
as in washing machines and dish washers, sprinkler systems.

The $400 to install one plus surge tank seems high to me.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT), JayN
wrote:

So far I've had the gauge connected for over 12 hours. I've still yet
seen the red memory needle get above around 98, and it didn't stay
near there long. The pressure is probably averaging 85 or maybe upper
80s. It's higher than normal, but not extraordinarily high. I'm
wondering why they can't install a Watts PRV valve that allows
backflow rather than bothering with an expansion tank? According to
Watts the ones with a B suffix in the model number allow backflow from
thermal expansion.

Totally pointless. The backflow may be prevented at your meter,
either now or in the future. Put in the expansion tank; take it from
somebody who's been there and had the leaks.

The meter doesn't prevent backflow. I've seen the meter run
backwards.


Totally pointless. *The backflow may be prevented at your meter,
either now or in the future. *Put in the expansion tank; take it from
somebody who's been there and had the leaks.

On Jul 25, 11:39*am, JayN wrote:
So far I've had the gauge connected for over 12 hours. *I've still yet
seen the red memory needle get above around 98, and it didn't stay
near there long. *The pressure is probably averaging 85 or maybe upper
80s. * It's higher than normal, but not extraordinarily high. *I'm
wondering why they can't install a Watts PRV valve that allows
backflow rather than bothering with an expansion tank? *According to
Watts the ones with a B suffix in the model number allow backflow from
thermal expansion.

You seem to be trying to rationalize your decision not to spend the
extra money to put in a PRV and tank. Whether it's 115 or 100 it's
still high. You seem to think that a leak will occur at an average
pressure reading. That is not how it works. Or maybe you're hoping
that a low reading will convince the leak not to happen at all?

You are asking questions that people in your location are best able to
answer. Our water district has some odd requirements and it is
pointless to argue with them. Why not pick up the phone and call
another plumber? If you don't have one you trust, ask neighbors and
friends for some names.

R

On Jul 24, 11:55*pm, greg2468 wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:32:23 -0400, "jack" wrote:
I would check the pressure myself. *115psi is very high. *Mine was 90psi and
I installed a prv to bring it down to a normal 55psi. *High pressure is
asking for problems.

Yep. A home inspector; in his report, said pressure was to high and
that I needed a PRV.

I took several readings over a day to find the average pressure.
Keeping in mind (city water) the pressures dropped in the area after
folks came home and started using water for meals, bathing, etc...

I even challenged the inspector's gauge about accuracy. We were only
talking little difference so the house would sell....

In the area where I live, the hose faucet on the front of homes does
not run through the PRV or through the cutoff valve for the whole
home. *Double check your pressure on another hose faucet. *You need
that PRV because incoming water pressure may spike occaisionally. *To
get back to the original thread, if I had a 21 year old water heater
and money was not an issue, I would replace it now. *Flooded houses
are no fun and a new heater will be much more efficient.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:15:53 -0700 (PDT), JayN
wrote:

The meter doesn't prevent backflow. I've seen the meter run
backwards.

The meter doesn't prevent backflow yet. Meters can be changed, and
new ones may prevent backflow. In fact, I suspect it is a requirement
these days.

Granted the pressure is high if it can briefly get to 100. However,
given that the water heater in my townhouse has lasted 21 years
without a leak, would it be unreasonable for me to believe that the
water pressure really isn't a problem? My mom lives in the same
development and she does not have a PRV valve either. I only know of
one neighbor that has one.

Nobody is requiring that I install a PRV valve. It is a question of
whether or not it is a good idea to install or a waste of money.

You seem to be trying to rationalize your decision not to spend the
extra money to put in a PRV and tank. *Whether it's 115 or 100 it's
still high. *You seem to think that a leak will occur at an averagepressurereading. *That is not how it works. *Or maybe you're hoping
that a low reading will convince the leak not to happen at all?

You are asking questions that people in your location are best able to
answer. *Our water district has some odd requirements and it is
pointless to argue with them. *Why not pick up the phone and call
another plumber? *If you don't have one you trust, ask neighbors and
friends for some names.

R

On Jul 26, 6:56*pm, JayN wrote:
Granted the pressure is high if it can briefly get to 100. *However,
given that the water heater in my townhouse has lasted 21 years
without a leak, would it be unreasonable for me to believe that the
water pressure really isn't a problem? * My mom lives in the same
development and she does not have a PRV valve either. *I only know of
one neighbor that has one.

Nobody is requiring that I install a PRV valve. *It is a question of
whether or not it is a good idea to install or a waste of money.

You seem to be trying to rationalize your decision not to spend the
extra money to put in a PRV and tank. *Whether it's 115 or 100 it's
still high. *You seem to think that a leak will occur at an averagepressurereading. *That is not how it works. *Or maybe you're hoping
that a low reading will convince the leak not to happen at all?

You are asking questions that people in your location are best able to
answer. *Our water district has some odd requirements and it is
pointless to argue with them. *Why not pick up the phone and call
another plumber? *If you don't have one you trust, ask neighbors and
friends for some names.

People here have mentioned valid reasons that a PRV makes sense. You
seem to be asking for someone to convince you - that is not the
function of a newsgroup. It's an exchange of ideas - whether you
choose to accept the advice and experience of other is up to you.

The plumber you originally spoke to has some issues that would tend to
throw his conclusion into question - that does not mean he was
offering bad advice, nor offering a good price. Have you picked up a
phone to get another opinion or are you still trying to solve this
theoretically?

Here's Watts page on PRVs to get you started on some research of your
own:
http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/w...about_wprv.asp
Please note the part about reduced water consumption and cost savings.

You should also take a look at how you are quoting people in your
replies. A little tweaking needs to be done. You are not providing
an attribution to the quoted commentary which makes it difficult for
people to follow who said what. Top posting just adds to the problem.

R