In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

I coulda sworn car trunks for last several years had emergency releases
on the inside. Whitish plastic loop thing? Anybody got a recent sedan
to look? (My only car with a trunk is 9 years old.) Of course, that only
does any good if the trapped person is aware of it, and can find it in
the dark.

While gagged, blindfolded, and duct-taped.

"willshak" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Kids don't usually hide in closed refrigerators, washers, dryers, etc.,
when they are in the house. Maybe you can recall an earlier time in your
life when you were invincible. While playing hide and seek, you find a
refrigerator outside that is empty (after your party, when it may have
been at least partially full). You decide to hide in it.

It's not just a human tendency, it's something that most young four-legged
creatures do, too. Hiding from playmates is something dogs, cats and plenty
of other animals besides humans do when young. I think it's pretty
instinctive behavior. The constant parade of kids found smothered in
refrigerators and car trunks pretty much confirms the universality of the
tendency for little kids to want to hide in things.

I suspect that at one time in our evolution, children with that behavior
survived some horrible event like a Viking raid because they were hiding
when it happened, as so it's become a deep-seated genetic trait. Young lion
cubs know to hide when their father is deposed by a new lion and that's
probably because the ones that didn't hide got eaten. For humans, the
desire to hide is mostly a survival trait gone awry in a mechanized world
although some kids have survived some pretty horrific crimes against their
parents by hiding in a closet. That fact that often two or three kids die
in one smothering misadventure confirms how fundamental a behavior it is.

The important point to remember is that it's nearly automatic behavior, so
we, as adults, have to insure that it doesn't lead to a bad end. I knew
someone who backed over and killed a child on a bike. Causing a child's
death, even by the remotest of accidents, is something most people are well
advised to avoid. He became an alcoholic after the accident and never
recovered from the guilt.

One of the weirdest experiences of my life was backing out of my driveway in
relatively unfamiliar vehicle, my dad's van, when suddenly the image of my
friend and his horrible car accident flashed through my mind as vividly as
if was happening right then. I jammed on the brakes only to see a little
girl on a low slung Big Wheels appear from behind the van and rocket off
down the road at full speed. I heard the theme song to the Twilight Zone
for sure that day.

She had managed to ride in the combined blind spot of all three rear view
mirrors. The next day I bought a rear-view camera system to monitor the
space low on the ground the mirrors can't pick up. I'm still incredibly
thankful to this day that something made me stomp that brake pedal in time.
Well, we've gotten pretty far away from refrigerators . . .

--
Bobby G.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

stuff snipped

However, they may be up to
something else which renders them eligible for a bullet or two
(don't
forget, kids are smaller targets).

Reminds me of that famous line from Full Metal Jacket:

Private Joker: How can you shoot women or children?
Door Gunner: Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! Ain't war hell?

FWIW, I heard that one from an A-10 pilot at least three years before
FMJ came out.

It wouldn't surprise me to hear a Warthog driver say that. The movie was
based on a book that was written by a former Marine, Gustav Hasford, called
The Short-Timers that was published in 1979 so your friend could either have
read it in the book or even been the source for the quote!

You made me go and look up the whole scene:

Door Gunner: Git some! Git some! Git some, yeah, yeah, yeah! Anyone that
runs, is a VC. Anyone that stands still, is a well-disciplined VC! You guys
oughta do a story about me sometime!
Private Joker: Why should we do a story about you?
Door Gunner: 'Cuz I'm so ****in' good! I done got me 157 dead gooks killed.
Plus 50 water buffalo too! Them's all confirmed!
Private Joker: Any women or children?
Door Gunner: Sometimes!
Private Joker: How can you shoot women or children?
Door Gunner: Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! Ain't war hell?

--
Bobby G.

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

In many states, if a child dies in a refrigerator or an unattended pool,
there's both criminal and civil liability. So, even if you believe in
Darwinism, it's not a good idea to leave an old refrigerator out where
kids
can get to it. It could cost them their lives and you everything you
own
and maybe even your freedom, too.

--
Bobby G.


I coulda sworn car trunks for last several years had emergency releases
on the inside. Whitish plastic loop thing? Anybody got a recent sedan
to look? (My only car with a trunk is 9 years old.) Of course, that only
does any good if the trapped person is aware of it, and can find it in
the dark.

I believe they must be made out of glow in the dark material to make it
easier to find them and became mandatory in 2002. Your car's not new enough
to have one, although there are retrofits available. There had been
pressure to add such locks to all US vehicles after a cluster of 11 deaths
occurred in the late 90's:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00055794.htm

IRRC, it was not just trunk entrapment deaths of children, but victims of
kidnapping and domestic violence who ended up entrapped that really pushed
trunk release. As one who had foolishly ridden into a drive-in movie a
long, long time ago packed in the trunk with two other impoverished college
students, I can attest that driving around locked in a car trunk is a pretty
serious psychological experience, even if it's just for a little while and
under friendly circumstances. I can't imagine what it's like to have a
kidnapper or a homicidal spouse take you for a trunk ride.

Car trunk deaths are very often multiple fatalities and frequently a
gruesome combination of hyperthermia and asphyxia. I saw some photographs
of the inside of a trailer where over a dozen illegals died from
hyperthermia and asphyxia and it's clear they were struggling mightily to
chop an air hole into the side of the trailer but it got too hot too fast
for them to succeed. Death comes very quickly because the closed
environment allows humidity levels to soar so the victims can't shed the
rising heat by sweating.

Kids And Cars www.kidsandcars.org sells a retrofit kit called the Quick-Out
Emergency Trunk Release. Consumer's says you can buy it for $18 including
shipping and handling at www.aablelocksmiths.com. No affiliation, not even
a satisfied customer, not even a customer at all! I just found it with
Google. (-: But it sounds like a good idea for families with little kids
and old cars with trunks.

Maybe it's just as effective to terrorize your kids into thinking the trunk
is the most dangerous place in the world and if they climb in, there are
giant teeth that will eat them. What's the cost of a lifetime of trauma if
you can save $18. (-:

--
Bobby G.

on 7/22/2008 12:30 PM said the following:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:11:14 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:


The constant parade of kids found smothered in
refrigerators and car trunks


Can you actually back that up with a statistic or is it just another
urban myth that this is any more than one a year or less. I bet more
kids drown in the toilet.

BTW what happened to saying NO to kids?
Don't stick a nail file in the electric socket
Don't eat PT wood
Don't play with guns
Don't climb in car trunks
.... and don't break into my pool enclosure, take out all the drinks,
food, bins and shelves and climb inside!

add some more "No" rules that kids obey.
Don't stay out late.
Don't smoke.
Don't drink.
Don't take drugs.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
in the original Orange County
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Jul 22, 7:44*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:.

I coulda sworn car trunks for last several years had emergency releases
on the inside. *Whitish plastic loop thing? Anybody got a recent sedan
to look? (My only car with a trunk is 9 years old.) Of course, that only
does any good if the trapped person is aware of it, and can find it in
the dark.

I believe they must be made out of glow in the dark material to make it
easier to find them and became mandatory in 2002.
Your car's not new enough
to have one, although there are retrofits available. * There had been
pressure to add such locks to all US vehicles after a cluster of 11 deaths
occurred in the late 90's:

It depends on what kind of car he has.

As I stated, my 95 Accord has the latch rod exposed so all you have to
do is pull it, and I know there were some Fords in the late 90's that
had a cable operated system with a yellow ring attached to it.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:01:27 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 7/22/2008 12:30 PM said the following:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:11:14 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:


The constant parade of kids found smothered in
refrigerators and car trunks


Can you actually back that up with a statistic or is it just another
urban myth that this is any more than one a year or less. I bet more
kids drown in the toilet.

BTW what happened to saying NO to kids?
Don't stick a nail file in the electric socket
Don't eat PT wood
Don't play with guns
Don't climb in car trunks
.... and don't break into my pool enclosure, take out all the drinks,
food, bins and shelves and climb inside!

add some more "No" rules that kids obey.
Don't stay out late.
Don't smoke.
Don't drink.
Don't take drugs.

and Don't do any thinking. Leave that to the adults and holey books
:-)

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:01:27 -0400, willshak
wrote:

[snip]


BTW what happened to saying NO to kids?
Don't stick a nail file in the electric socket
Don't eat PT wood
Don't play with guns
Don't climb in car trunks
.... and don't break into my pool enclosure, take out all the drinks,
food, bins and shelves and climb inside!

add some more "No" rules that kids obey.
Don't stay out late.
Don't smoke.
Don't drink.
Don't take drugs.

The last one is the one I had trouble with. I thought they actually
meant it rather than some complicated subset of the rule. I had
headaches much of the time for a couple of years (aspirin is a drug).

Robert Green wrote:
"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
stuff snipped

In many states, if a child dies in a refrigerator or an unattended pool,
there's both criminal and civil liability. So, even if you believe in
Darwinism, it's not a good idea to leave an old refrigerator out where
kids
can get to it. It could cost them their lives and you everything you
own
and maybe even your freedom, too.

--
Bobby G.


I coulda sworn car trunks for last several years had emergency releases
on the inside. Whitish plastic loop thing? Anybody got a recent sedan
to look? (My only car with a trunk is 9 years old.) Of course, that only
does any good if the trapped person is aware of it, and can find it in
the dark.

I believe they must be made out of glow in the dark material to make it
easier to find them and became mandatory in 2002. Your car's not new enough
to have one, although there are retrofits available. There had been
pressure to add such locks to all US vehicles after a cluster of 11 deaths
occurred in the late 90's:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00055794.htm

IRRC, it was not just trunk entrapment deaths of children, but victims of
kidnapping and domestic violence who ended up entrapped that really pushed
trunk release. As one who had foolishly ridden into a drive-in movie a
long, long time ago packed in the trunk with two other impoverished college
students, I can attest that driving around locked in a car trunk is a pretty
serious psychological experience, even if it's just for a little while and
under friendly circumstances. I can't imagine what it's like to have a
kidnapper or a homicidal spouse take you for a trunk ride.

Car trunk deaths are very often multiple fatalities and frequently a
gruesome combination of hyperthermia and asphyxia. I saw some photographs
of the inside of a trailer where over a dozen illegals died from
hyperthermia and asphyxia and it's clear they were struggling mightily to
chop an air hole into the side of the trailer but it got too hot too fast
for them to succeed. Death comes very quickly because the closed
environment allows humidity levels to soar so the victims can't shed the
rising heat by sweating.

Kids And Cars www.kidsandcars.org sells a retrofit kit called the Quick-Out
Emergency Trunk Release. Consumer's says you can buy it for $18 including
shipping and handling at www.aablelocksmiths.com. No affiliation, not even
a satisfied customer, not even a customer at all! I just found it with
Google. (-: But it sounds like a good idea for families with little kids
and old cars with trunks.

Maybe it's just as effective to terrorize your kids into thinking the trunk
is the most dangerous place in the world and if they climb in, there are
giant teeth that will eat them. What's the cost of a lifetime of trauma if
you can save $18. (-:

--
Bobby G.


Moot point for me- no rug rats live here, no prospects for any living
here, and when I go to visit the ones I am related to, I have to get on
an airplane. So no point in my getting a retrofit kit.

--
aem sends...

Blind people can't hear hybrid cars coming because there's often no
engine noise.

Shaun Eli wrote:
Blind people can't hear hybrid cars coming because there's often no
engine noise.
Genetic selection. Harsh, but effective.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Scientific American has an article this month saying they
should put beepers on hybrid cars because you can't hear them coming
... presumably because you are talking on the phone or listening to
your Ipod.

Wrong presumption. The beeper movement is being spearheaded by several
associations for the blind, not Ipod users.

I guess "look both ways before you cross the street" was too
authoritarian and it would stifle their creativity.

I guess in your world, blind people can "look" both ways and don't have to
depend on their hearing to tell them a car is coming. Where, exactly, IS
that world?

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:11:14 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

The constant parade of kids found smothered in
refrigerators and car trunks

Can you actually back that up with a statistic or is it just another
urban myth that this is any more than one a year or less.

I guess you missed my post with the URL that led to the case histories of
the 11 deaths in one year from trunk entrapment. Those cases inspired the
trunk release rules. Better take another look:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00055794.htm

I bet more kids drown in the toilet.

Yes, that's true. But does that makes trunk entrapment deaths OK? Not on
my planet. In the spirit of the Big Lebowski, you'd better take another
look.

Seriously though, the CDC says: "Though an average of about 280 children
younger than 5 years old drown in swimming pools each year, an average of
about 150 additional children also drown at home in bathtubs, hot tubs and
spas, buckets, toilets, trash cans, landscape or fish ponds and decorative
fountains."

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06268.html

Apparently, some people actually lock children in car trunks on purpose so
the problem's not just one of "stupid" or ill-trained children. Consider
this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-trunks_x.htm

"An 8-year-old boy died of heat exposure in May in Asheville, N.C., after
his mother put him in the trunk. Police say Michelle Joyce Gibson, 36, left
him in the parking lot at her job because she had no babysitter. Police
found her cradling the dead child in the back seat of the car. She is in
jail awaiting trial on charges of second-degree murder and two counts of
child abuse."

--
Bobby G.




--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:09:49 -0700 (PDT), Shaun Eli
wrote:

Blind people can't hear hybrid cars coming because there's often no
engine noise.

That is why they have a dog.

Apparently you're under the mistaken impression that guide dogs, which are
color-blind like most dogs, read the traffic signals. They do not. Guide
dogs, like their blind masters, *listen* for the sounds of approaching
vehicles. But don't take my word for it, educate yourself at:

http://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/training.html

BTW at the end of the article they pointed out there are some gasoline
cars that are as quiet as a Prius.

That makes the problem even worse because there are more potential vehicles
that can't be heard approaching.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:09:49 -0700 (PDT), Shaun Eli
wrote:

Blind people can't hear hybrid cars coming because there's often
no
engine noise.

That is why they have a dog.

Apparently you're under the mistaken impression that guide dogs,
which are color-blind like most dogs, read the traffic signals.
They
do not. Guide dogs, like their blind masters, *listen* for the
sounds of approaching vehicles.

What, the dog can't _see_ a car coming? And in the US the signals are
for the most part positional as well as color coded, so in principle a
dog _can_ read them (although it would have to be smarter than any dog
I've ever encountered).

But don't take my word for it,
educate yourself at:

http://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/training.html

Which doesn't say anything about the dog listening for the sounds of
approaching vehicles.

BTW at the end of the article they pointed out there are some
gasoline cars that are as quiet as a Prius.

That makes the problem even worse because there are more potential
vehicles that can't be heard approaching.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

Scientific American has an article this month saying they
should put beepers on hybrid cars because you can't hear them coming
... presumably because you are talking on the phone or listening to
your Ipod.


Wrong presumption. The beeper movement is being spearheaded by several
associations for the blind, not Ipod users.

May be orchestrated by the beeper manufacturers. To increase sales,
have them mandated by Congress.



I guess "look both ways before you cross the street" was too
authoritarian and it would stifle their creativity.


I guess in your world, blind people can "look" both ways and don't have to
depend on their hearing to tell them a car is coming. Where, exactly, IS
that world?

--
Bobby G.

on 7/23/2008 1:16 AM Robert Green said the following:
wrote in message

stuff snipped


Scientific American has an article this month saying they
should put beepers on hybrid cars because you can't hear them coming
... presumably because you are talking on the phone or listening to
your Ipod.


Wrong presumption. The beeper movement is being spearheaded by several
associations for the blind, not Ipod users.


I guess "look both ways before you cross the street" was too
authoritarian and it would stifle their creativity.


I guess in your world, blind people can "look" both ways and don't have to
depend on their hearing to tell them a car is coming. Where, exactly, IS
that world?

--
Bobby G.


I took everything after the Scientific American comment by gfretwell as
satirical humor.
I guess he shoulda used a smiley for the humor challenged.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
in the original Orange County
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Drug: Something you take for recreation, or to get high.
Medicine: Taken to treat illness or ailment.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Gary H" wrote in message
...
Don't take drugs.

The last one is the one I had trouble with. I thought they actually
meant it rather than some complicated subset of the rule. I had
headaches much of the time for a couple of years (aspirin is a drug).

Well, that's usually only a problem if the guide dog is also blind, and the
car is being driven by a blind person.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
...
Blind people can't hear hybrid cars coming because there's often no
engine noise.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Drug: Something you take for recreation, or to get high.
Medicine: Taken to treat illness or ailment.


Alternative:

Drug: Something taken into the human body that's not food.
Recreational drug: Something taken for fun
Legal: Coke-Cola, coffee, tobacco
Illegal: Heroin, Marijuana, Cocaine
Medical drug: Aspirin, penicillin

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:50:31 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Drug: Something you take for recreation, or to get high.

Incorrect. Drug: A chemical substance (usually food is excepted) that
affects the body. It is not limited to recreational drugs (which I
avoid).

Medicine: Taken to treat illness or ailment.

Actually incorrect, but don't worry about that one.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"