I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Richard

wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?
Richard

wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?

Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.

Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.

It simply can not work...

--

On Jul 2, 10:36 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?

Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.

Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.

It simply can not work...
I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
Anyway, it was just a thought to try and save fossil fuels and money.
I should have pointed out that my house is very well insulated and we
keep things cool in the winter and supplement my gas furnace with
electric heaters. My total heating bill for last winter was less than
$600.(natural gas at $1.40/therm).
Richard

wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 10:36 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than
the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the
best).

--

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?

Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.

Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.

It simply can not work...
I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
Anyway, it was just a thought to try and save fossil fuels and money.
I should have pointed out that my house is very well insulated and we
keep things cool in the winter and supplement my gas furnace with
electric heaters. My total heating bill for last winter was less than
$600.(natural gas at $1.40/therm).
Richard

You got him to bit twice, be satisfied with that.

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:32:44 -0700, wrote:

I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature in
the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full basement
stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very impractical
to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of installing an air
source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild temperature there
should allow for very efficient heating. Richard

At one time I had a Thermastor heat pump water heater in the basement.
It worked quite well to heat the water. Not only did it dehumidify the
basement efficiently, it also turned it into a walk-in cooler.

Basement temp ended up around 55F.



--

=================================================
Franz Fripplfrappl

it wouldn't take long for the heat pump to remove all the heat from the
basement, then you'd have 32 degree floors and frozen plumbing.

s

wrote in message
...
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Richard

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Richard

It would never work, Think about it, what does a heat pump do? your
basement would end up as cold as outside.

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:05:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote Re Heat pump in basement?:

I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation.

The replenishment heat from the walls won't be able to conduct from
the earth outside the walls fast enough to keep up with the heat pump.
The "heat" flows like this:

Earth (1) == Basement Walls (2) == Basement Air (3) == Heat Pump
(4)

Heat flow from (1) to (3) will be much slower than from (3) to (4).
The only way to compensate for that would be for the volume of (3) to
be much larger than the volume you are heating.

On Jul 2, 9:52*pm, " wrote:
On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb wrote:

wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. *Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. *They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?
Richard

That space will warm up as you cool the living area (cool down as
you heat the living area). That means it shortly will become very hot
or cold and will not allow the heat pump to function efficiently.

Your idea is a good one however. It is possible to put long pipes
into the ground and to move air through them to supply the heat pump.
Those pipes need to be about six foot below grade and you need a lot.
Local conditions will determine if the idea will work for you. I
have seen several people around me use that system.

On Jul 3, 8:08*am, wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:


Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house...

That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. *They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

Nick


That is true, but even without insulation the surface area of the
basement is not large enough to move enough heat. It also is a
problem because over weeks, the temperature of the surrounding ground
will become saturated (heat or cold) and will no longer be efficient.
The standard method is to bury pipes and pump air or liquid though
them. They should cover a large area depending on local ground
conditions and heat - cooling loads.

wrote:
....

It simply can not work...

Balderdash :-)


As proposed as an air-exchange unit w/ the basement volume, no way...

--

dpb wrote:
wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement?

Good idea, esp if it's damp. If it isn't, you might use a soaker hose and
a solenoid valve and humidistat to keep the basement air 50% RH while you
put a window AC through a stairwell wall, with the warm side in the living
space. The main mechanism for upward heatflow in soil is evaporation from
lower soil layers and vapor movement through voids and condensation above.

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house...

That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

That also sounds good, with a large cheap swimming pool in the basement with
a thick layer of ice on top and a little fresh water flow as needed. The
Climatemaster 27 is a nice $5K 3-ton water source heat pump with a COP of 5.

It simply can not work...

Balderdash :-)

Nick

wrote:
....

I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.

That's nice to assume but don't believe it'll be adequate. No estimate
of the size of house to heat and I'm assuming it's desirable to keep the
basement at something near a habitable condition.

If there is no restriction whatsoever on that, I it could manage to be a
contributor but would imo not be the economical use of the investment.
Of course, besides the size of the heat sink/source issue, the outdoor
unit would noisy if installed in the house.

The ground source, otoh, would be quite economical to operate.

--

On Jul 3, 10:37*am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is *55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, *consider what you have said.

That's nice to assume but don't believe it'll be adequate. *No estimate
of the size of house to heat and I'm assuming it's desirable to keep the
basement at something near a habitable condition.

If there is no restriction whatsoever on that, I it could manage to be a
contributor but would imo not be the economical use of the investment.
Of course, besides the size of the heat sink/source issue, the outdoor
unit would noisy if installed in the house.

The ground source, otoh, would be quite economical to operate.

--

it is an interesting question...

before writing it off.... compare... what is the surface area of the
basment walls compared to the surface area of the buried pipes...?

Mark

Mark wrote:
....
before writing it off.... compare... what is the surface area of the
basment walls compared to the surface area of the buried pipes...?

More directly to the point is the comparison of the conductivity and
heat capacity of the soil vis a vis the air.

The problem of yet not knowing even the size of the heated space
relative to the basement is also limiting in having a clue as to the
sink/source sizing.

--

wrote:
wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house...

That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. =A0They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

Nick

... even without insulation the surface area of the basement is not large
enough to move enough heat.

Looks like you didn't read the part of my posting you snipped.

Nick

On Jul 3, 4:31�pm, dpb wrote:
Mark wrote:

...

before writing it off.... �compare... what is the surface area of the
basment walls compared to the surface area of the buried pipes...?

More directly to the point is the comparison of the conductivity and
heat capacity of the soil vis a vis the air.

The problem of yet not knowing even the size of the heated space
relative to the basement is also limiting in having a clue as to the
sink/source sizing.

--

the heat from the living area would sink into the basement...

what the OP needs is a ground water heat pump.......

and lots and lots of insulation!

wrote:
....

the heat from the living area would sink into the basement...

That's occurring anyway and certainly not by "sinking".

what the OP needs is a ground water heat pump.......

Which, if you will read my first response is precisely what I recommended...


and lots and lots of insulation!

Given the level of cost he claims for last winter, it would seem either
the house is very small, the setpoint is extremely low, or the house is
pretty well insulated. Then again, maybe it's global warming and the
winter was mild last year...

--

On Jul 3, 4:43*pm, wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house...

That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. =A0They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

Nick

... even without insulation the surface area of the basement is not large
*enough to move enough heat.

Looks like you didn't read the part of my posting you snipped.

Nick- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Sorry it still will not work. The efficiency will drop to almost
nothing. You don't have enough exchange area.

On Mar 5, 5:52*pm, (mencarj) wrote:
responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...



why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?

Mark

In article
,
Mark wrote:

On Mar 5, 5:52*pm, mencarj at yahoo dot (mencarj) wrote:
responding
tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...



why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?

Mark

It's because he's posting from that ****ing "for profit" usenet mirror,
the home moaner's club. About the most ****ed up way to get to usenet
other than using google, btw.

On 3/5/2011 8:22 PM, Michael Dobony wrote:
On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 22:52:57 +0000, mencarj wrote:
....
wrote:
....
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
....
Personally I think it will work ,as a HVAC Contractor with 35 years
experience and just as many working/installing Heat Pump systems, here\'s
my opinion, First they make a air source heat pump using a 12000 btu air
source heat pump to heat hot water, ...
....
Look at how a heat pump or AC works (heat pump is AC in reverse). One coil
gets hot and the other gets cold. If you want a 20 degree rise in temp
upstairs you will get a 20 degree drop in the basement. That is assuming
100% efficiency. Eventually the basement will have to get as cold as the
outside or colder in order to get a sufficient heat rise in your living
space....

And as well that's assuming the same volume of heated space as compared
to the basement (which may be reasonably close for a ranch style w/ a
full unfinished basement, but for anything w/ partially finished
basement or larger heated area in comparison, the ratio would be 1:1 by
that ratio of volumes.

It's a worthless idea; there's not even remotely close to the required
heat source/sink heat capacity available; the water heater idea works
only owing to it being a much lower demand in comparison to space heat.

--

On 3/5/2011 7:02 PM, Mark wrote:
On Mar 5, 5:52 pm, (mencarj) wrote:
responding tohttp://www.homeownershu.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...



why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?

Mark

He comes from the hellish place called the home owners shrub.

You got here the Dilbert way. Study up "usenet", f*ck the homeclonershub
and come join us the "real" way. Using the homeownersclub has a habit of
making smart people look stupid. Not your fault, just a mistake. Use
usenet.

At least give him a more concrete suggestion.


1) Download a program called Mozilla Thunderbird. Install it.

2) Sign up for an account at:
http://www.usenet-news.net/index1.php?url=get

(they have a 10 Gigabyte account for 5 bucks, which will last you
about 20 years)

3) set up Mozilla Thunderbird with "us.usenet-news.net" as account name

4) set up a fake email address, so you don't get spammed

5) subscribe to groups you like

6) start posting and reading

The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. This could make a heat pump very efficient.

Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. That would be a geothermal system.

On 3/7/2011 9:29 AM, Ohioguy wrote:
You got here the Dilbert way. Study up "usenet", f*ck the homeclonershub
and come join us the "real" way. Using the homeownersclub has a habit of
making smart people look stupid. Not your fault, just a mistake. Use
usenet.

At least give him a more concrete suggestion.


1) Download a program called Mozilla Thunderbird. Install it.

2) Sign up for an account at:
http://www.usenet-news.net/index1.php?url=get

(they have a 10 Gigabyte account for 5 bucks, which will last you about
20 years)

3) set up Mozilla Thunderbird with "us.usenet-news.net" as account name

4) set up a fake email address, so you don't get spammed

5) subscribe to groups you like

6) start posting and reading

Wut's a fake Email address, II didn't know you could get one. :-)

TDD

On Mar 7, 3:34*pm, Ohioguy wrote:
* *The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
* For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. *Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. *Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. *This could make a heat pump very efficient.

* *Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. *That would be a geothermal system.

There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.

On 3/7/2011 10:41 AM, harry wrote:
On Mar 7, 3:34 pm, wrote:
The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. This could make a heat pump very efficient.

Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. That would be a geothermal system.

There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.

Errrrrrrrr! The condensing unit which technically turns into an
evaporator when the reversing valve is activated is still called
the condenser because it's the outdoor component. If you walked
into a supply house and asked for an evaporator, you'll get the
indoor coil.

TDD

On Mar 7, 10:34*am, Ohioguy wrote:
* *The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
* For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. *Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. *Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. *This could make a heat pump very efficient.

* *Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. *That would be a geothermal system.

It's an interesting idea to use the basement as a heat source. But
as
you point out, the real question is how
much the basement temperature will drop. Dropping that temperature
is going to take some heat away from the house through colder floors,
more heat loss through basement ducts, etc.

And another big issue I see is summer. Almost all heat pumps also
serves as AC. So, in the summer, you're raising the basement
temperature and again, how much is the key question. That would
obviously depend on the size of the basement. Large, open, full
basement would be the best case. Even then, I think it's highly
questionable.

On Mar 7, 5:14*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 3/7/2011 10:41 AM, harry wrote:





On Mar 7, 3:34 pm, *wrote:
* * The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer..
* *For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. *Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. *Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. *This could make a heat pump very efficient.

* * Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. *That would be a geothermal system.

There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.

Errrrrrrrr! The condensing unit which technically turns into an
evaporator when the reversing valve is activated is still called
the condenser because it's the outdoor component. If you walked
into a supply house and asked for an evaporator, you'll get the
indoor coil.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's three components. The pump/ compressor and two heat
exchangers.
The pump can be in the basement. One heat exchanger indoors and one
outdors.
Putting a heat exchanger in the basement is stupid.

On 3/8/2011 12:21 PM, harry wrote:
On Mar 7, 5:14 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/7/2011 10:41 AM, harry wrote:





On Mar 7, 3:34 pm, wrote:
The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. This could make a heat pump very efficient.

Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. That would be a geothermal system.

There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.

Errrrrrrrr! The condensing unit which technically turns into an
evaporator when the reversing valve is activated is still called
the condenser because it's the outdoor component. If you walked
into a supply house and asked for an evaporator, you'll get the
indoor coil.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's three components. The pump/ compressor and two heat
exchangers.
The pump can be in the basement. One heat exchanger indoors and one
outdors.
Putting a heat exchanger in the basement is stupid.

Not stupid if it's mounted on top of the air handler and connected to
the duct work. :-)

TDD

On Mar 8, 7:31*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 3/8/2011 12:21 PM, harry wrote:





On Mar 7, 5:14 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/7/2011 10:41 AM, harry wrote:

On Mar 7, 3:34 pm, * *wrote:
* * *The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
* * For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. *Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. *Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. *This could make a heat pump very efficient.

* * *Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. *That would be a geothermal system.

There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.

Errrrrrrrr! The condensing unit which technically turns into an
evaporator when the reversing valve is activated is still called
the condenser because it's the outdoor component. If you walked
into a supply house and asked for an evaporator, you'll get the
indoor coil.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's three components. The pump/ compressor and two heat
exchangers.
The pump can be in the basement. One heat exchanger indoors and one
outdors.
Putting a heat exchanger in the basement is stupid.

Not stupid if it's mounted on top of the air handler and connected to
the duct work. :-)

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well then you'll need a bigger/imcreased power fan to overcome the
resistance of the ducts. Not to mention added expense.
If you were talking ground source, the water/refrigerant heat
exchanger could be indoors.
If it was a wet heating sytem, well there's another water/refrigerant
heat exchanger could be indoors too.

responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4
connected units so that the total basement (part basement but mostly crawl
space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half underground and
there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some
kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete block walls
and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water
pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never
heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a radon system
in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci)
The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic feet. The primary
heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating.
The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters,
water pipes and telephone utilities.
Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat pumps in the
basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons primarily,
but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the
basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesn’t matter since the
space can’t be used, and because of the large volume of basement space, the
air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer than the
exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern would be
if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also,
during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be
removed.

nahcr writes:

responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4
connected units so that the total basement (part basement but mostly crawl
space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half underground and
there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some
kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete block walls
and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water
pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never
heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a radon system
in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci)
The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic feet. The primary
heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating.
The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters,
water pipes and telephone utilities.
Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat pumps in the
basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons primarily,
but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the
basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesnt matter since the
space cant be used, and because of the large volume of basement space, the
air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer than the
exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern would be
if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also,
during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be
removed.

No good.

I'm not a heating specialist, but I can figure out that there's not
enough of a heat sink in the basement air to accomplish anything.

Heat pumps are done with long lengths of tubing underground because of
the huge thermal mass of the ground.


--
Dan Espen

"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
nahcr writes:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4
connected units so that the total basement (part basement but mostly
crawl
space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half underground
and
there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some
kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete block
walls
and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water
pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never
heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a radon
system
in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci)
The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic feet. The
primary
heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating.
The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters,
water pipes and telephone utilities.
Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat pumps in
the
basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons
primarily,
but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the
basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesnt matter since
the
space cant be used, and because of the large volume of basement space,
the
air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer than
the
exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern would
be
if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also,
during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be
removed.

No good.

I'm not a heating specialist, but I can figure out that there's not
enough of a heat sink in the basement air to accomplish anything.

Heat pumps are done with long lengths of tubing underground because of
the huge thermal mass of the ground.

There are other types of heat pumps, such as water cooled and air cooled.
But a basement would not have enough heat to warm a house before it was
cooled below the heat pumps ability to extract heat.

"EXT" writes:

"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
nahcr writes:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4
connected units so that the total basement (part basement but
mostly crawl
space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half
underground and
there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some
kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete
block walls
and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water
pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never
heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a
radon system
in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci)
The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic
feet. The primary
heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating.
The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters,
water pipes and telephone utilities.
Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat
pumps in the
basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons
primarily,
but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the
basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesnt matter
since the
space cant be used, and because of the large volume of basement
space, the
air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer
than the
exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern
would be
if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also,
during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be
removed.

No good.

I'm not a heating specialist, but I can figure out that there's not
enough of a heat sink in the basement air to accomplish anything.

Heat pumps are done with long lengths of tubing underground because of
the huge thermal mass of the ground.

There are other types of heat pumps, such as water cooled and air
cooled. But a basement would not have enough heat to warm a house
before it was cooled below the heat pumps ability to extract heat.

Sure an air conditioner is a type of heat pump.

But we agree that a basement isn't going to cut it.

--
Dan Espen

responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
Thanks for your responses. However, i still dont understand why a heat pump won't work. The heat pump we currently have is outside and it functions fine until it gets really cold. So I would think that putting it in the basement with a large air volume would mean that it would function just as well, and that perhaps there would be a slight efficiency gain on very cold and windy days or on very hot days since the basement is sheltered from the wind and snow and shaded from the sun. My situation is
unusual because first in proportion to the size of the house, the basement is very large, and second, the basement cannot be used except to run pipes and keep the water heaters for the 4 units. I would like to put the pumps there because they are ugly and that will get them out of my yard.
If the heat pump worked just as well in the basement as outside, i would be quite satisfied. Is there some reason why this would not be true?
Is there any danger to the occupants in putting the pumps in the basement? If the temperature outside went down to say 10 degrees F on the coldest day of the year, would pipes in the basement freeze because of the heat pump?

"nahcr" wrote in message
roups.com...
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...nt-316736-.htm
nahcr wrote:
Thanks for your responses. However, i still dont understand why a heat
pump won't work. The heat pump we currently have is outside and it
functions fine until it gets really cold. So I would think that putting
it in the basement with a large air volume would mean that it would
function just as well, and that perhaps there would be a slight efficiency
gain on very cold and windy days or on very hot days since the basement is
sheltered from the wind and snow and shaded from the sun. My situation is
unusual because first in proportion to the size of the house, the basement
is very large, and second, the basement cannot be used except to run pipes
and keep the water heaters for the 4 units. I would like to put the pumps
there because they are ugly and that will get them out of my yard.
If the heat pump worked just as well in the basement as outside, i would
be quite satisfied. Is there some reason why this would not be true?
Is there any danger to the occupants in putting the pumps in the basement?
If the temperature outside went down to say 10 degrees F on the coldest
day of the year, would pipes in the basement freeze because of the heat
pump?

I'll say it this way: Heat pumps can only move heat (BTUs) around. Located
outside, your heat pump can exchange an infinite number of BTUs from the air
since it just grabs "new" air with a new supply of BTUs with its fan as
needed. So, it will work whether the outside air is warm or cold pushing the
BTUs in or out of the outside air (and your house). If you put the heat
pump in your basement, the BTUs the heat pump can grab are limited by what
the walls, floor and other materials contain or can transfer in/out. Since
the BTUs can't easily flow in or out of the basement volume of air, walls
and concrete, the heat transfer is not limited by the pump but by its source
of BTUs.

On a hot or cold day when your heat pump is trying to cool or heat your
house, it will run out of BTUs that can be pulled or pushed into your
basement. It then loses efficiency and will just run without doing any
heating or cooling. Meanwhile, your basement will either be way too hot or
way too cold. You may not care what the temperature of the basement is, but
your pipes could freeze on a cold day outdoors as the heat pump sucks heat
from the basement to put into the house. On a warm day outside, the heat
build up in the basement could be dangerous and damage wiring or the house
structure. Or, the heat could simply make the heat pump so inefficient, it
wouldn't cool the house; it would just waste electricity.

If you could fill your basement with water which has a much higher BTU
capacity per unit volume than air and concrete and use that water for your
heat pump, you might make your idea work; but there's also a good chance
that you would have a block of ice in the basement for much of the winter
and a pool of steaming water for much of the summer.

A neighbor of mine installed a ground water heat pump to heat and cool his
house. For a house of about 2500 square feet and well insulated, it takes
the water from 5 wells to supply enough BTUs winter and summer to keep the
house comfortable. It's very energy efficient because the high volume of
well water, either coming or going is always about 50 degrees F +/- 10
degrees., so it can either give or take plenty of BTUs, but drilling the
wells was expensive.

Tomsic