Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the water,
wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the reference
colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a colour range
for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH, and Alkalinity.
Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are technically past
the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon, but firstly just to
compare the results of the test between the old strips and new strips, so I
cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number is
determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion concentration,
and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is about 7. That
it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character. If the number
is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it is alkaline
(base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by definiton it
CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cannot be alkaline
and be acidic too.

So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which read
from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a low
alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &
low.

Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated
too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up", and
"Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the strips
may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies may be full
of crud.


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On Jun 16, 10:50 am, "bent" wrote:
Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit .

http://www.poolcenter.com/watbal.htm
-----

- gpsman

bent wrote:
....
... But if it is acidic (low number on the pH
scale), by definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice
versa: it cannot be alkaline and be acidic too.
....

Overall, yes, but regardless of the pH there are still both types of
ions present; simply in differing ratios.

The other poster's link gives a reasonable explanation of why the
testing is done for both in a pool altho under the Alkalinity section
there's some real voodoo "chemistry"...

"... High levels of alkalinity are lowered by the addition of an acid
(similar to pH). Experts recommend "pooling" the acid in a small area
of low current for a greater effect on alkalinity. That is, adding an
acid will lower both pH and alkalinity. Walking the acid around the
pool in a highly distributed manner is said to have a greater effect
lowering the pH than the alkalinity. Pooling the acid has the opposite
effect. ..."

That's a load of hooey for sure--pooling acid (or any other additive)
will have an disproportionate effect locally, but can have no effect on
the bulk properties--the same amount of acid or base will have the same
effect on the total average properties once the water is thoroughly
mixed as if it were distributed initially.

--

bent wrote:

Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the
4 square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in
the water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to
the reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips
have a colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10
ppm), pH, and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I
currently have are technically past the expiration date, and I will
get some new ones soon, but firstly just to compare the results of
the test between the old strips and new strips, so I cna finish them
off. Any comments on how off they can get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The
number is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral
water is about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its
chemical character. If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and
if its high, like 9, it is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low
number on the pH scale), by definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the
same time, or vice versa: it cannot be alkaline and be acidic too.

So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which
read from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a
Alkaline scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a
low pH and a low alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or
low & high, or high & low.

Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix
the problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately
moderated too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down",
"Alkalinity Up", and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do
anything, (a) because the strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b)
the pool chemical companies may be full of crud.

In poolspeak, Total Alkalinity (TA) refers to the concentration of
sodium bicarbonate. See rant below.

What you're remembering from chemistry class is pH versus pOH. Those
are scales for measuring acid / base. To simplify, pH is the
concentration of the hydrogen ion (H+), and pOH is the concentration of
the hydroxyl ion (OH-). They're complementary:

pH - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
pOH - 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0


Rant:
Non-technical people keep making up terms that conflict with scientific
definitions. My least favorite is "natural", which in strict terms
means "obeying the laws of nature". That makes it a totally useless
definition, since anything which doesn't obey the laws of nature
doesn't exist.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

SteveB wrote:


Rant:
Non-technical people keep making up terms that conflict with
scientific definitions. My least favorite is "natural", which in
strict terms means "obeying the laws of nature". That makes it a
totally useless definition, since anything which doesn't obey the
laws of nature doesn't exist.

See the spate of articles today on gay marriage in California.

from http://www.poolcenter.com/watbal.htm

under the pH text:
"To have pH in balance we adjust the water with additions of pH increasers
(bases) or pH de-creasers (acids) to achieve the range of 7.2 - 7.8. If
.....pH value below 7.2 ... you will need to add a base to ....[if] above
7.8, ....add an acid"

& under the TA text:
"Low alkalinity is raised by the addition of a base (similar to pH); sodium
bicarbonate is commonly used. High levels of alkalinity are lowered by the
addition of an acid (similar to pH)."

So to fix my low pH and low TA according to the poolcenter's (above) text

to fix low pH : add a base
to fix low TA : add a base

That is just deduced from their text

Sodium Bicarbonate is the recommended base, to raise a low TA, under the
poolcenter's TA text. I have two different brands of "pH Up/Boost"
chemicals and they are both "sodium carbonate".

But I have no chemical labelled for TA Up/Boost. Is it the same one? [The
Na-C?] So seriously, at this point, I'd just be happy with like a solution
to the current problem! Hello.

I do have a chemical labelled for pH down, which is "acid sulphate of soda"
which says "to lower pH and alkalinity of swimming pool water".

p.s.
I have three different brands of test strips here & all three have both pH
and TA scales.

I thought I had a point to this, and I had the evidence, but all I can tell
you now is that I don't think I can remember my name! So if high is high
add low. And If low is high add low. No, what? Am I high?


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I think I now have also another logical legitimate good question, too,
stemming from this. If the pH and TA responded the same to the same
chemical additions under the same conditions so far: does that mean that the
chemical for fixing a high pH and the chemical for fixing a high TA woud be
the same?

Oh, wait I just wrote this didn't I: "I do have a chemical labelled for pH
down, which is "acid sulphate of soda" which says "to lower pH and
alkalinity of swimming pool water"."

So there are only 2 chemicals for the four possible problems of:
pH low
pH high
TA low
TA high
?


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"bent" wrote in message
...
Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,
and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are
technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,
but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old strips
and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can
get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number
is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is
about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character.
If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it
is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by
definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cannot
be alkaline and be acidic too.

So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which read
from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a low
alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &
low.

Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated
too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
may be full of crud.


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It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust the
PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was something
you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had to
drain some water and replace it with fresh water.

Of course, I could be all wet. ;)

Don Young

Don Young wrote:

"bent" wrote in message
...

Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,
and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are
technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,
but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old strips
and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can
get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number
is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is
about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character.
If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it
is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by
definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cannot
be alkaline and be acidic too.

So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which read
from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a low
alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &
low.

Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated
too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
may be full of crud.


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It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust the
PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was something
you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had to
drain some water and replace it with fresh water.

Of course, I could be all wet. ;)

Don Young


You more or less got it right:
pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration (lower number is
more acid and more hydrogen ions).
Total Akalinity is a measure of the amount of acid you have to add
to lower the pH.

In very pure water, only a little bit of acid (or a little bit of some alkali,
such as sodium carbonate) will cause dramatic changes in pH.

In water with years of pool chemical residues, it can take much more
pH adjustment chemicals to make much of a difference.
Such solutions might be described as highly buffered.

http://www.lamotte.com/pages/pool/ha.../chapter3.html

For those who thought the details were a little out of grasp (like me) this
is a pretty good one-stop explanation, having read through a few different
sites for a search detail "is bromine a stabiliozer ?": no bromine is a spa
oxidizer/sanitizer suitable more for spas, whereas Chlorine is more for
pools, I think


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On Jun 17, 12:33*pm, M Q wrote:
Don Young wrote:
"bent" wrote in message
...

Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,
and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are
technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,
but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old strips
and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can
get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number
is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is
about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
On Jun 17, 12:33=A0pm, M Q wrote:
Don Young wrote:
"bent" wrote in message
...

Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,=

and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have a=
re
technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,=

but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old stri=
ps
and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they c=
an
get with age?

This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):

I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The numbe=
r
is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water =
is
about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical characte=
r.
If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it=

is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by=

definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cann=
ot
be alkaline and be acidic too.

So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which rea=
d
from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a l=
ow
alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &=

low.

Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated=

too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
may be full of crud.

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et
News=3D=3D----
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Newsgroups
----=3D East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=3D----

It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust=
the
PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was somethi=
ng
you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had t=
o
drain some water and replace it with fresh water.

Of course, I could be all wet. ;)

Don Young

You more or less got it right:
pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration (lower number is
=A0 more acid and more hydrogen ions).
Total Akalinity is a measure of the amount of acid you have to add
to lower the pH.

In very pure water, only a little bit of acid (or a little bit of some alk=
ali,
such as sodium carbonate) will cause dramatic changes in pH.

In water with years of pool chemical residues, it can take much more
pH adjustment chemicals to make much of a difference.
Such solutions might be described as highly buffered.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yes...

I look at it this way... if you have say 1 gallon of water and say 10
grams of acid and 10 grams of base, the pH is neutral and the total
alkaliinty is low...

but instead if you have 10 pounds of acid and 10 ponds of base, ( I
exagerate here) the pH is still balanced but the total alkalinity will
be high.

Interesting chemistry you're using there.
If you mix a base and an acid together until you get a neutral pH, you don't
have a high alkalinity or a high acidity. What you have is a salt solution.

A glass of hydrochloric would rather nasty to drink.
A glass of sodium hydroxide solution would also be rather nasty to drink.
Mix them together until you get a pH of 7 and what you'll have is simply
a glass of water with salt disolved in it. Not the tastiest thing in the world
to drink, but not nearly as bad as either of the original 2 ingredients.

And yes, mixing a base and an acid will always get you a salt. The type of
base or acid you use will determine what salt is produced. And not all salts
are as benign as good old sodium cloride, but they're still just a salt.