Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. thanks!

On Mon, 19 May 2008 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT), Dairy Godmother
wrote:

Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. thanks!

Hi D-G,

As per your previous thread, if you already have gas to the outside of
this home and you must replace the oil tank because it cannot be
insured, then now is a great time to make the switch to gas.

From what you've described here and elsewhere, you have a hot water
heating system, so to install central air requires that you run duct
work throughout your home. That's likely to be costly and potentially
messy work in an older home such as this. If you want air
conditioning, you might consider going with one or more ductless heat
pumps [or, alternatively, a multi-zone model], also known as
mini-splits.

If you're not familiar with this technology, here are a couple
brochures to get you started:

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

http://www.friedrich.com/downloads/D...s_Brochure.pdf

They provide both air conditioning and economical heat even in CT
where electricity sells for $0.16 to $0.18 per kWh. How economical?
At today's prices, as little as one-half to one-third the cost of home
heating oil.

Bear in mind no one knows how much oil, gas or electricity will cost
five, ten or twenty years from now. As I said before, a lot has
changed in just the past two years alone. Your *ONLY* safe bet is to
insulate and air seal this home to the greatest extent possible so
that regardless of whichever fuel you use, you'll be using very
little.

Cheers,
Paul

On May 19, 9:03*am, Dairy Godmother wrote:
Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. *So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. *Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. *Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. *thanks!

You buy insurance, you are insured unless the insurance co tells you
you are not.

Look into spacepack AC.

Your utility rates are local to you, you have to run the numbers,
nobody knows where Ng oil prices will be in a year or 2, but likely Ng
might be cheapest, but then maybe electric will be.

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On Mon, 19 May 2008 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT), Dairy Godmother
wrote:

Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. thanks!

Hi D-G,

As per your previous thread, if you already have gas to the outside of
this home and you must replace the oil tank because it cannot be
insured, then now is a great time to make the switch to gas.

From what you've described here and elsewhere, you have a hot water
heating system, so to install central air requires that you run duct
work throughout your home. That's likely to be costly and potentially
messy work in an older home such as this. If you want air
conditioning, you might consider going with one or more ductless heat
pumps [or, alternatively, a multi-zone model], also known as
mini-splits.

If you're not familiar with this technology, here are a couple
brochures to get you started:

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

http://www.friedrich.com/downloads/D...s_Brochure.pdf

They provide both air conditioning and economical heat even in CT
where electricity sells for $0.16 to $0.18 per kWh. How economical?
At today's prices, as little as one-half to one-third the cost of home
heating oil.

Bear in mind no one knows how much oil, gas or electricity will cost
five, ten or twenty years from now. As I said before, a lot has
changed in just the past two years alone. Your *ONLY* safe bet is to
insulate and air seal this home to the greatest extent possible so
that regardless of whichever fuel you use, you'll be using very
little.

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

On May 19, 11:05*am, ransley wrote:
On May 19, 9:03*am, Dairy Godmother wrote:





Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. *So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. *Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. *Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. *thanks!

You buy insurance, you are insured unless the insurance co tells you
you are not.

Yes, that's true. But what the policy covers and excludes is a big
factor. Many insurance companies have exclusions for buried oil
tanks. I'd carefully read the policy regarding oil tanks period.




*Look into spacepack AC.

Your utility rates are local to you, you have to run the numbers,
nobody knows where Ng oil prices will be in a year or 2, but likely Ng
might be cheapest, but then maybe electric will be.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 19 May 2008 10:49:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

Hi Banty,

For a general overview on water heating options, click on the "Hot
Water Answers" link he

http://www.conservens.ca/enerinfo/enerInfopublications

And although the pricing data may not be relevant to you, this table
could still be of some interest:

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....iteid=1&lang=1

Cheers,
Paul

"Dairy Godmother" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. thanks!




-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
Cold enough to think about this now and old enough that the functionality of
unused pipes is in question

-- gas lines run into basement but not used
Get it tested for leaks, and verify it is still connected to the gas company
service end. Make sure it will pass code (big enough for your use) before
you get all excited about using them for a new service.


-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
Even an Old boiler may have many years left in it if maintained well.
Estimating its efficiency and comparing that to your new heating options
would be a rational analysis.

Oil tanks do need replacement periodically. New fiberglass tanks are easier
to move and decommission and last longer and don't rust.

-- radiators in each room
You'll want to stick with forced hot water system if you want to use them.
If you go with central air (which also heats) these will be obsolete. Old
radiators are in demand at salvage yards and newer baseboard radiators have
copper and Al that can be recycled to recover a tiny bit of the cost. Is
this a hot water or steam system (hard to guess from the date)

-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
If you restore the Gas service you might as well stub in a pipe for the
range and dryer and maybe a bigger one (than typical) for the water heater
should you desire a tankless system. You'll already be paying a plumber
some bucks. Even if you never upgrade your appliances, it will be a selling
plus when that day comes.


-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)
Residential A/C is almost always electric. If you go that way, you will
need to install ducting for the whole house as well as a heater A/C unit. A
very expensive upgrade for a small home. A less intrusive solution is to
leave your heating system alone and install separate split system A/C units
in each room. You only need a small hole in the exterior wall to run the
pipe and power through. The Compressor is outside on the ground and the A/C
fan and cooling coil is hung on the wall. About $3000 for a system to cool
a couple rooms

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 10:49:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

Hi Banty,

For a general overview on water heating options, click on the "Hot
Water Answers" link he

http://www.conservens.ca/enerinfo/enerInfopublications

And although the pricing data may not be relevant to you, this table
could still be of some interest:

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....iteid=1&lang=1

OK - one source doesn't mention direct heat; the other only gas-fired direct
heat.

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty

On May 19, 5:16�pm, wrote:
On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:26:08 -0700, "pipedown" wrote:

"Dairy Godmother" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. �So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. �Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. �Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?

I really appreciate any commentary -- I see other entries along these
lines but some are old and some are not from the Northeast. �thanks!

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
Cold enough to think about this now and old enough that the functionality of
unused pipes is in question

-- gas lines run into basement but not used
Get it tested for leaks, and verify it is still connected to the gas company
service end. �Make sure it will pass code (big enough for your use) before
you get all excited about using them for a new service.

-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
Even an Old boiler may have many years left in it if maintained well.
Estimating its efficiency and comparing that to your new heating options
would be a rational analysis.

Oil tanks do need replacement periodically. �New fiberglass tanks are easier
to move and decommission and last longer and don't rust.

-- radiators in each room
You'll want to stick with forced hot water system if you want to use them..
If you go with central air (which also heats) these will be obsolete. �Old
radiators are in demand at salvage yards and newer baseboard radiators have
copper and Al that can be recycled to recover a tiny bit of the cost. �Is
this a hot water or steam system (hard to guess from the date)

-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
If you restore the Gas service you might as well stub in a pipe for the
range and dryer and maybe a bigger one (than typical) for the water heater
should you desire a tankless system. �You'll already be paying a plumber
some bucks. �Even if you never upgrade your appliances, it will be a selling
plus when that day comes.

-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)
Residential A/C is almost always electric. �If you go that way, you will
need to install ducting for the whole house as well as a heater A/C unit. �A
very expensive upgrade for a small home. �A less intrusive solution is to
leave your heating system alone and install separate split system A/C units
in each room. �You only need a small hole in the exterior wall to run the
pipe and power through. �The Compressor is outside on the ground and the A/C
fan and cooling coil is hung on the wall. �About $3000 for a system to cool
a couple rooms

Another popular option, especially if it's a one story house is to do all the
A/C ductwork in the attic and ceilings.

If you can avoid switching to forced air heat, you will retain more value in the
home. Many people would never consider a home with forced air no matter how nice
a deal it is otherwise. It's a deal breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

theres high pressure ducting, small lines, a few inches in diameter
used to save costs. can add noise so they have atuneators in the
lines.

you should get some estimates including high pressure, which works for
both heating and cooling

On 19 May 2008 15:22:50 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 10:49:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

Hi Banty,

For a general overview on water heating options, click on the "Hot
Water Answers" link he

http://www.conservens.ca/enerinfo/enerInfopublications

And although the pricing data may not be relevant to you, this table
could still be of some interest:

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....iteid=1&lang=1

OK - one source doesn't mention direct heat; the other only gas-fired direct
heat.

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 15:22:50 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 10:49:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

Hi Banty,

For a general overview on water heating options, click on the "Hot
Water Answers" link he

http://www.conservens.ca/enerinfo/enerInfopublications

And although the pricing data may not be relevant to you, this table
could still be of some interest:

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....iteid=1&lang=1

OK - one source doesn't mention direct heat; the other only gas-fired direct
heat.

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).

I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty

On May 19, 8:27 pm, Banty wrote:
In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...





On 19 May 2008 15:22:50 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 10:49:54 -0700, Banty wrote:

I have oil heat (sticking with it since we don't get gas here; I'd have to do
another tank), but in that scenario I'd probably go with the gas. For one
thing, I haven't seen any oil-fired inline water heaters. Unless someone here
can point me to one..

Banty

Hi Banty,

For a general overview on water heating options, click on the "Hot
Water Answers" link he

http://www.conservens.ca/enerinfo/enerInfopublications

And although the pricing data may not be relevant to you, this table
could still be of some interest:

http://www.gov.ns.ca/energy/AbsPage....&siteid=1Ω=1

OK - one source doesn't mention direct heat; the other only gas-fired direct
heat.

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).

I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty

No one in this discussion has mentioned the current price of oil ,
$3.60 / gallon/140,000 btus
vs gas which is now $1.30/therm/100,00 btus. The cost per therm of oil
right now is twice the cost per therm of gas in my area. One solution
is run the oil tank dry. Then check the prices of oil vs gas. If there
is still a great discrepancy and the boiler is in good shape, then
replace the oil burner with a conversion gas burner. It is a quick
job(I am told about 2 hours) if the gas pipe is nearby. BTW the cost
of this burner is around $850.
Richard

"Dairy Godmother" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)


Since it sounds like you have hot water heat, central air would be really
expensive to add due to ductwork that doesn't currently exist. Regardless,
gas is almost always more efficient than oil. But - is the gas line big
enough for the task? Only a heating pro can tell you that.

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

I haven't seen that. But, I'd like to know, as an owner of an 18 year old
Burnham oil burner in an area with no gas service anywhere near, what my best
ocnversion option would be.

Banty

On Mon, 19 May 2008 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT), Dairy Godmother
wrote:

Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?



I'd see if a gas burner couldn't be installed in the boiler, and use
window units or mini splits for ac. Oil is likely to continue its
upward trajectory, and the liability of an uninsured tank is something
to be taken seriously.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 12:04:48 -0500, Chris Hill
wrote:

On Mon, 19 May 2008 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT), Dairy Godmother
wrote:

Hi there,

Just bought a house in CT and am navigating options (my first house).
The house has an oil tank (which I find hard to wrap my head around,
I'm from CA and we didnt have oil tanks) which works fine, though it
has been patched and the inspector told me it could not be insured as
a result. So it got my mind to thinking about the options and I
realized I had no experience to even begin to have an opinion, so here
I am. Here are the facts:

-- Stamford, CT house built in 1925
-- gas lines run into basement but not used
-- oil tank and boiler (not sure of boiler age, I'm thinking not that
new but not too old)
-- radiators in each room
-- electric appliances (but would love gas one day)
-- no central a/c (would love that one day too)

I'd like to know what scenario would make the most sense if I want to
be economical in the long run. Here are my questions if anyone is
interested / can help:

-- If we put in central air, would it require gas or is electric
possible?
-- if C/A requres gas, does that mean the heat should be gas as well?
I prefer radiator heat, but is it lame to have a sep. system for
cooling and heating? (oil heat and gas a/c)
-- can you run radiators with gas (vs. oil)? seems inefficient
-- given that we dont like it too warm (60-65) and are happy to heat
only those rooms as we need them, is there an electric-based option
that saves money (short of portable space heaters)?

Lastly, anyone from the area able to comment about price of oil vs.
gas vs. electric?



I'd see if a gas burner couldn't be installed in the boiler, and use
window units or mini splits for ac. Oil is likely to continue its
upward trajectory, and the liability of an uninsured tank is something
to be taken seriously.

What liability for an uninsured tank?
I beleive he's talking about a basement tank, typically 275 gallon
capacity, not an underground tank that could indeed offer
environmental hazards.

When small basement tanks leak it almost always starts as a pinhole
leak giving on a drip onto the basement foor. I've seen people go for
an entire heating season with a bucket under the drip, or a temporary
patch.

Replacement of such a tank, as long as there is easy basement access,
is a simple affair. At wholesale equipment outlets around me, new
steel tanks cost only about $300. Installation costs may bring a
replacement up to about $1000.

By insurance I suspect that he meant an annual burner/tank service
policy. When oil companies see advanced age on burners or tanks, they
won't insure it for a service contract.

To the original poster:

With Connecticut making a dumb experiment with electric rate
deregulation (as did California under Gov. Gray out Gray), electrical
rates have skyrocketed. Connecticut, except perhaps for Hawaii, now
has the highest rates in the nation. Don't even consider electric
heat.

Electric heat pumps are also generally a poor choice here in CT. There
are simply too many winter days that are cold enough to make the
backup electrical resistance heaters in the heat pump come on,
spinning your service meter and drving up your costs. Heat pumps only
are efficient down to about 35 degrees. Most CT winter days are below
that.

Doug

On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:38:12 -0400, Doug
wrote:

[...snip...]

To the original poster:

With Connecticut making a dumb experiment with electric rate
deregulation (as did California under Gov. Gray out Gray), electrical
rates have skyrocketed. Connecticut, except perhaps for Hawaii, now
has the highest rates in the nation. Don't even consider electric
heat.

Electric heat pumps are also generally a poor choice here in CT. There
are simply too many winter days that are cold enough to make the
backup electrical resistance heaters in the heat pump come on,
spinning your service meter and drving up your costs. Heat pumps only
are efficient down to about 35 degrees. Most CT winter days are below
that.

Doug

Hi Doug,

In an earlier reply to the OP, I recommended that she consider a
ductless heat pump to address her a/c needs and to help out with her
heating requirements as well. I also provided a link to the following
brochu

http://www.friedrich.com/downloads/D...s_Brochure.pdf

One of the models listed is the M24YF. It has a nominal cooling
capacity of 24,200 BTU/hr and in terms of heat output is rated at
27,600 BTU/hr at 47F and 21,000 BTU/hr at 17F. Thus, this two-ton
unit still provides nearly 90 per cent of its rated heat output at a
temperature well below freezing (this particular model operates down
to 5F).

The HSPF rating is 10.0 (Zone 4, which, if I'm not mistaken, includes
all of CT). In effect, it provides, on average, 2.94 kWh of heat for
every kWh consumed, so if the OP pays $0.18 per kWh, her effective
cost per kWh of heat over the span of the entire heating season is
just $0.061. At an AFUE of 82%, that works out to be the equivalent
of oil heat at $2.04 per gallon -- in this case, less than half the
going rate.

If the OP ultimately decides to keep her oil boiler, it makes good
sense to pay a few hundred dollars more for a mini-split that both
heats and cools; the incremental cost could be recaptured in as little
as one or two months.

If she switches to natural gas, then a ductless heat pump could still
make sense, even if is only used during periods of relatively mild
weather; again, the difference in cost between an a/c only system and
a heat pump is relatively modest and it's always a good idea to have a
backup source of heat in case the main system goes down for any
reason.

Then again, it might make sense to use it all winter long. According
to the DOE's most recent numbers, the average (six month) retail price
of natural gas in Connecticut is $1.766 per 100 CCF (roughly speaking,
100 CCF = 1 therm = 100,000 BTUs). A gas boiler with an AFUE of 86%
provides about 25.2 kWh of heat (net) so, on that basis, natural gas
costs about $0.07 per kWh(e). That means the seasonal operating costs
of aforementioned heat pump at $0.061 per kWh(e) are lower, even when
the homeowner pays $0.18 per kWh to their utility.

Cheers,
Paul

On 20 May 2008 05:22:18 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

I haven't seen that. But, I'd like to know, as an owner of an 18 year old
Burnham oil burner in an area with no gas service anywhere near, what my best
ocnversion option would be.

Banty

Hi Banty,

Do you have to replace your boiler at this time? At 18 years, a good
quality boiler should still have plenty of life left in it.

I've talked about ductless heat pumps throughout this thread. You
might consider one as a secondary heat source, especially if the a/c
benefits enhance the overall picture (the Fujitsu 12RLQ has a SEER
rating of 21, btw).

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 20 May 2008 05:22:18 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

I haven't seen that. But, I'd like to know, as an owner of an 18 year old
Burnham oil burner in an area with no gas service anywhere near, what my best
ocnversion option would be.

Banty

Hi Banty,

Do you have to replace your boiler at this time? At 18 years, a good
quality boiler should still have plenty of life left in it.

I've talked about ductless heat pumps throughout this thread. You
might consider one as a secondary heat source, especially if the a/c
benefits enhance the overall picture (the Fujitsu 12RLQ has a SEER
rating of 21, btw).


OK. But you have no ideas on a primary heat source instead of oil, where there
is no gas service....?

Banty

On 21 May 2008 10:06:07 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 20 May 2008 05:22:18 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

I haven't seen that. But, I'd like to know, as an owner of an 18 year old
Burnham oil burner in an area with no gas service anywhere near, what my best
ocnversion option would be.

Banty

Hi Banty,

Do you have to replace your boiler at this time? At 18 years, a good
quality boiler should still have plenty of life left in it.

I've talked about ductless heat pumps throughout this thread. You
might consider one as a secondary heat source, especially if the a/c
benefits enhance the overall picture (the Fujitsu 12RLQ has a SEER
rating of 21, btw).


OK. But you have no ideas on a primary heat source instead of oil, where there
is no gas service....?

Banty


Hi Banty,

There are other options such as electric or propane but I can't see
either being more cost effective and even if they were somewhat
cheaper per BTU, it would hardly justify the cost of swapping out what
you have now if your current heating system is relatively efficient
and in good working order.

My recommendation, if your primary objective is to reduce your home
heating costs is to keep what you have now and add one or more
ductless heat pumps as a secondary heat source. As noted, the
operating costs are considerably less than that of oil and you gain
the benefits of a/c.

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 10:06:07 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 20 May 2008 05:22:18 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 19 May 2008 17:27:23 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

Why are there no oil-fired direct heaters?

Banty


Hi Banty,

I don't know of any myself. I'm familiar with direct-fired natural
gas and propane units such as this:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...heets/557B.pdf

but none made for oil. Perhaps the market is deemed too small for a
low-volume product like this (and with home heating oil selling at
$4.25+ a gallon, it's likely to contract a whole lot further).


I don't know about that - there's a huge installed base of oil-fired furnaces
and boilers, especially here in the northeast US, many (like mine) in places
without gas service. Plus, gas and oil have a history of see-sawing as far as
prices. There's lots of people around to tell woes of converting one way or the
other based on then-current prices, only to be burned.

Since these are reputed to be so efficiant, the oil prices should have customers
lining up.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Looking at the latest DOE figures for Y2005, nationally, 7.7 million
out of a total of 111.1 million households use oil; that's less than 7
per cent. New England is the notable exception, where 6.2 million of
the 20.6 million homes in this region are heated with oil (30 per
cent).

In 2001, there were 8.7 million homes in the U.S. that were oil
heated, of which 6.6 million were located in the northeast. That
means one million U.S. homes converted to some other fuel in the span
of that four year period alone -- 400,000 in the New England area.

Sources:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/rec...ables2005.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/byf.../byfuel_fo.pdf

Given the rapid run up in fuel oil prices since 2005, I'd expect that
trend to accelerate further. The residential fuel oil market is
imploding as we speak.

I haven't seen that. But, I'd like to know, as an owner of an 18 year old
Burnham oil burner in an area with no gas service anywhere near, what my best
ocnversion option would be.

Banty

Hi Banty,

Do you have to replace your boiler at this time? At 18 years, a good
quality boiler should still have plenty of life left in it.

I've talked about ductless heat pumps throughout this thread. You
might consider one as a secondary heat source, especially if the a/c
benefits enhance the overall picture (the Fujitsu 12RLQ has a SEER
rating of 21, btw).


OK. But you have no ideas on a primary heat source instead of oil, where there
is no gas service....?

Banty


Hi Banty,

There are other options such as electric or propane but I can't see
either being more cost effective and even if they were somewhat
cheaper per BTU, it would hardly justify the cost of swapping out what
you have now if your current heating system is relatively efficient
and in good working order.

My recommendation, if your primary objective is to reduce your home
heating costs is to keep what you have now and add one or more
ductless heat pumps as a secondary heat source. As noted, the
operating costs are considerably less than that of oil and you gain
the benefits of a/c.


Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Well, OK, of course. Which makes me glad (if I weren't glad enough already)
that I've tightened up the house with new Marvin windows and added insulation
where it was found to be lacking.

But what I'm trying to get at is - should I be ready to make a conversion from
oil should my boiler go, or is propane (I'd have to have a propane tank) and
electric going to follow oil anyway?

Banty

On 21 May 2008 20:09:14 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Well, OK, of course. Which makes me glad (if I weren't glad enough already)
that I've tightened up the house with new Marvin windows and added insulation
where it was found to be lacking.

But what I'm trying to get at is - should I be ready to make a conversion from
oil should my boiler go, or is propane (I'd have to have a propane tank) and
electric going to follow oil anyway?

Banty


Hi Banty,

FWIW, the previous owners of my home used some 5,700 litres (1,505
gallons) of heating oil a year for space heating and domestic hot
water purposes and with various thermal upgrades plus the addition of
a ductless heat pump, I was able to get that down to 700 litres last
year. Now, with a small electric water heater pre-feeding my boiler's
indirect tank, that number should drop to perhaps something in the
range of 250 litres (66 gallons). When you get your consumption down
to this level the price of fuel oil could double or triple overnight
and your out-of-pocket expenses are still minimal. Had I done nothing
at all, today, I'd be paying over $7,000.00 a year to heat my home; as
it stands now, I pay less than $700.00 and our winters are
significantly colder than those of Buffalo, NY.

If money were no object and you wanted to stick with a central heating
system, then a ground source heat pump would likely be your best bet.
However, at the end of the day, one or two ultra high-efficiency
Fujitsu 12RLQ ductless heat pumps could reduce your home heating costs
by almost as much but, in this case, your upfront costs would be
substantially lower and the money you save could be used to pay for
additional upgrades to your home's thermal envelope. To me, this is a
more sensible way to go.

BTW, crude oil is currently trading at $134.75 a barrel and the Nymex
heating oil futures price is $3.96 a gallon. Retail is normally
another $0.60 to $0.75 above that so, as of now, residential fuel oil
would be priced at $4.60 to $4.70 a gallon. You should expect to pay
**at least** $5.00 by this fall and perhaps $6.00 if things continue
at their current pace. So for a homeowner who uses an average of
1,000 gallons a year, budget $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 just to be safe
(the cost to fill a 275 gallon tank that's roughly 1/4 full could be
$1,000.00+).

I'm trying hard not to be alarmist, but when I say I'm being told the
situation in New England this coming winter will be bleak I mean this
in the truest sense of the word.

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 20:09:14 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Well, OK, of course. Which makes me glad (if I weren't glad enough already)
that I've tightened up the house with new Marvin windows and added insulation
where it was found to be lacking.

But what I'm trying to get at is - should I be ready to make a conversion from
oil should my boiler go, or is propane (I'd have to have a propane tank) and
electric going to follow oil anyway?

Banty


Hi Banty,

FWIW, the previous owners of my home used some 5,700 litres (1,505
gallons) of heating oil a year for space heating and domestic hot
water purposes and with various thermal upgrades plus the addition of
a ductless heat pump, I was able to get that down to 700 litres last
year. Now, with a small electric water heater pre-feeding my boiler's
indirect tank, that number should drop to perhaps something in the
range of 250 litres (66 gallons). When you get your consumption down
to this level the price of fuel oil could double or triple overnight
and your out-of-pocket expenses are still minimal. Had I done nothing
at all, today, I'd be paying over $7,000.00 a year to heat my home; as
it stands now, I pay less than $700.00 and our winters are
significantly colder than those of Buffalo, NY.

If money were no object and you wanted to stick with a central heating
system, then a ground source heat pump would likely be your best bet.
However, at the end of the day, one or two ultra high-efficiency
Fujitsu 12RLQ ductless heat pumps could reduce your home heating costs
by almost as much but, in this case, your upfront costs would be
substantially lower and the money you save could be used to pay for
additional upgrades to your home's thermal envelope. To me, this is a
more sensible way to go.

BTW, crude oil is currently trading at $134.75 a barrel and the Nymex
heating oil futures price is $3.96 a gallon. Retail is normally
another $0.60 to $0.75 above that so, as of now, residential fuel oil
would be priced at $4.60 to $4.70 a gallon. You should expect to pay
**at least** $5.00 by this fall and perhaps $6.00 if things continue
at their current pace. So for a homeowner who uses an average of
1,000 gallons a year, budget $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 just to be safe
(the cost to fill a 275 gallon tank that's roughly 1/4 full could be
$1,000.00+).

I'm trying hard not to be alarmist, but when I say I'm being told the
situation in New England this coming winter will be bleak I mean this
in the truest sense of the word.

Thanks, Paul.

I'll look into the heat pump - I take it it greatly raises the efficiency of
circulation. For my primary, should it go, maybe I should go for the downsized
indirect tank system but stick with oil as other fuel options aren't great
either. And emphasize conservation. As in the end the only real way to address
this.

One thought I had when backing out of the System 2000 (other than getting a
stong feeling I should rethink everything, and that I had time to do so) was
that the $$$ could better be put into a few more things, like replacing certain
doors.

My house isn't particularly well situated for solar (north side of a hill, with
the major roof surfaces facing east and west), but maybe there's something I
could do there too.

Banty

On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:47:38 -0300, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:38:12 -0400, Doug
wrote:

[...snip...]

To the original poster:

With Connecticut making a dumb experiment with electric rate
deregulation (as did California under Gov. Gray out Gray), electrical
rates have skyrocketed. Connecticut, except perhaps for Hawaii, now
has the highest rates in the nation. Don't even consider electric
heat.

Electric heat pumps are also generally a poor choice here in CT. There
are simply too many winter days that are cold enough to make the
backup electrical resistance heaters in the heat pump come on,
spinning your service meter and drving up your costs. Heat pumps only
are efficient down to about 35 degrees. Most CT winter days are below
that.

Doug


Hi Doug,

In an earlier reply to the OP, I recommended that she consider a
ductless heat pump to address her a/c needs and to help out with her
heating requirements as well. I also provided a link to the following
brochu

http://www.friedrich.com/downloads/D...s_Brochure.pdf

One of the models listed is the M24YF. It has a nominal cooling
capacity of 24,200 BTU/hr and in terms of heat output is rated at
27,600 BTU/hr at 47F and 21,000 BTU/hr at 17F. Thus, this two-ton
unit still provides nearly 90 per cent of its rated heat output at a
temperature well below freezing (this particular model operates down
to 5F).

The HSPF rating is 10.0 (Zone 4, which, if I'm not mistaken, includes
all of CT). In effect, it provides, on average, 2.94 kWh of heat for
every kWh consumed, so if the OP pays $0.18 per kWh, her effective
cost per kWh of heat over the span of the entire heating season is
just $0.061. At an AFUE of 82%, that works out to be the equivalent
of oil heat at $2.04 per gallon -- in this case, less than half the
going rate.

If the OP ultimately decides to keep her oil boiler, it makes good
sense to pay a few hundred dollars more for a mini-split that both
heats and cools; the incremental cost could be recaptured in as little
as one or two months.

If she switches to natural gas, then a ductless heat pump could still
make sense, even if is only used during periods of relatively mild
weather; again, the difference in cost between an a/c only system and
a heat pump is relatively modest and it's always a good idea to have a
backup source of heat in case the main system goes down for any
reason.

Then again, it might make sense to use it all winter long. According
to the DOE's most recent numbers, the average (six month) retail price
of natural gas in Connecticut is $1.766 per 100 CCF (roughly speaking,
100 CCF = 1 therm = 100,000 BTUs). A gas boiler with an AFUE of 86%
provides about 25.2 kWh of heat (net) so, on that basis, natural gas
costs about $0.07 per kWh(e). That means the seasonal operating costs
of aforementioned heat pump at $0.061 per kWh(e) are lower, even when
the homeowner pays $0.18 per kWh to their utility.

Cheers,
Paul

I'm a bit puzzled by the literature of that heat pump.
The electrical wattage for heating is over double that of cooling.
The compressor shouldn't draw any more when its cycle is reversed.
Is it that they are using an electrical strip heater when temp drops
in order to maintain output?

Doug

On Fri, 23 May 2008 04:52:24 -0400, Doug
wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:47:38 -0300, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2008 15:38:12 -0400, Doug
wrote:

[...snip...]

To the original poster:

With Connecticut making a dumb experiment with electric rate
deregulation (as did California under Gov. Gray out Gray), electrical
rates have skyrocketed. Connecticut, except perhaps for Hawaii, now
has the highest rates in the nation. Don't even consider electric
heat.

Electric heat pumps are also generally a poor choice here in CT. There
are simply too many winter days that are cold enough to make the
backup electrical resistance heaters in the heat pump come on,
spinning your service meter and drving up your costs. Heat pumps only
are efficient down to about 35 degrees. Most CT winter days are below
that.

Doug


Hi Doug,

In an earlier reply to the OP, I recommended that she consider a
ductless heat pump to address her a/c needs and to help out with her
heating requirements as well. I also provided a link to the following
brochu

http://www.friedrich.com/downloads/D...s_Brochure.pdf

One of the models listed is the M24YF. It has a nominal cooling
capacity of 24,200 BTU/hr and in terms of heat output is rated at
27,600 BTU/hr at 47F and 21,000 BTU/hr at 17F. Thus, this two-ton
unit still provides nearly 90 per cent of its rated heat output at a
temperature well below freezing (this particular model operates down
to 5F).

The HSPF rating is 10.0 (Zone 4, which, if I'm not mistaken, includes
all of CT). In effect, it provides, on average, 2.94 kWh of heat for
every kWh consumed, so if the OP pays $0.18 per kWh, her effective
cost per kWh of heat over the span of the entire heating season is
just $0.061. At an AFUE of 82%, that works out to be the equivalent
of oil heat at $2.04 per gallon -- in this case, less than half the
going rate.

If the OP ultimately decides to keep her oil boiler, it makes good
sense to pay a few hundred dollars more for a mini-split that both
heats and cools; the incremental cost could be recaptured in as little
as one or two months.

If she switches to natural gas, then a ductless heat pump could still
make sense, even if is only used during periods of relatively mild
weather; again, the difference in cost between an a/c only system and
a heat pump is relatively modest and it's always a good idea to have a
backup source of heat in case the main system goes down for any
reason.

Then again, it might make sense to use it all winter long. According
to the DOE's most recent numbers, the average (six month) retail price
of natural gas in Connecticut is $1.766 per 100 CCF (roughly speaking,
100 CCF = 1 therm = 100,000 BTUs). A gas boiler with an AFUE of 86%
provides about 25.2 kWh of heat (net) so, on that basis, natural gas
costs about $0.07 per kWh(e). That means the seasonal operating costs
of aforementioned heat pump at $0.061 per kWh(e) are lower, even when
the homeowner pays $0.18 per kWh to their utility.

Cheers,
Paul

I'm a bit puzzled by the literature of that heat pump.
The electrical wattage for heating is over double that of cooling.
The compressor shouldn't draw any more when its cycle is reversed.
Is it that they are using an electrical strip heater when temp drops
in order to maintain output?

Doug

Hi Doug,

I'm looking at the specs for the M24YF (page 6 of this brochure) and
without the benefit of morning coffee I can't find where this is
printed. The only wattage I see listed is for cooling and this is
shown as 2.31 kW. Power consumption in heating mode is normally
slightly lower and will more or less follow heat output, so as heating
capacity starts to taper off with outdoor temperature, so too will
wattage. There are no backup strips in these units.

As I recall, my ductless unit (a 14,000 BTU/hr Friedrich, nee
Fujitsu), draws 1,290-watts in cooling mode/1,230-watts in heating
(nominal) and, again, as it gets colder the number of watts pulled
will dimmish.

Cheers,
Paul

On 22 May 2008 08:00:48 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 20:09:14 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Well, OK, of course. Which makes me glad (if I weren't glad enough already)
that I've tightened up the house with new Marvin windows and added insulation
where it was found to be lacking.

But what I'm trying to get at is - should I be ready to make a conversion from
oil should my boiler go, or is propane (I'd have to have a propane tank) and
electric going to follow oil anyway?

Banty


Hi Banty,

FWIW, the previous owners of my home used some 5,700 litres (1,505
gallons) of heating oil a year for space heating and domestic hot
water purposes and with various thermal upgrades plus the addition of
a ductless heat pump, I was able to get that down to 700 litres last
year. Now, with a small electric water heater pre-feeding my boiler's
indirect tank, that number should drop to perhaps something in the
range of 250 litres (66 gallons). When you get your consumption down
to this level the price of fuel oil could double or triple overnight
and your out-of-pocket expenses are still minimal. Had I done nothing
at all, today, I'd be paying over $7,000.00 a year to heat my home; as
it stands now, I pay less than $700.00 and our winters are
significantly colder than those of Buffalo, NY.

If money were no object and you wanted to stick with a central heating
system, then a ground source heat pump would likely be your best bet.
However, at the end of the day, one or two ultra high-efficiency
Fujitsu 12RLQ ductless heat pumps could reduce your home heating costs
by almost as much but, in this case, your upfront costs would be
substantially lower and the money you save could be used to pay for
additional upgrades to your home's thermal envelope. To me, this is a
more sensible way to go.

BTW, crude oil is currently trading at $134.75 a barrel and the Nymex
heating oil futures price is $3.96 a gallon. Retail is normally
another $0.60 to $0.75 above that so, as of now, residential fuel oil
would be priced at $4.60 to $4.70 a gallon. You should expect to pay
**at least** $5.00 by this fall and perhaps $6.00 if things continue
at their current pace. So for a homeowner who uses an average of
1,000 gallons a year, budget $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 just to be safe
(the cost to fill a 275 gallon tank that's roughly 1/4 full could be
$1,000.00+).

I'm trying hard not to be alarmist, but when I say I'm being told the
situation in New England this coming winter will be bleak I mean this
in the truest sense of the word.

Thanks, Paul.

I'll look into the heat pump - I take it it greatly raises the efficiency of
circulation. For my primary, should it go, maybe I should go for the downsized
indirect tank system but stick with oil as other fuel options aren't great
either. And emphasize conservation. As in the end the only real way to address
this.

One thought I had when backing out of the System 2000 (other than getting a
stong feeling I should rethink everything, and that I had time to do so) was
that the $$$ could better be put into a few more things, like replacing certain
doors.

My house isn't particularly well situated for solar (north side of a hill, with
the major roof surfaces facing east and west), but maybe there's something I
could do there too.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Crude oil hit $135.09 yesterday and is trading this morning slightly
lower ($132.27). However, heating oil futures are now $3.991 a gallon
so, again, based on normal margins, we should expect to pay between
$4.60 to $4.75 a gallon retail. Due to a growing world-wide demand
for distillates, that will most likely pass the $5.00 mark within the
next few weeks. [Looking at this week's numbers, U.S. distillate
inventories, which includes both heating oil and diesel came in
800,000 barrels below analyst expectations.]

So, again, homeowners who heat with oil will be in for a shock when
their tanks are topped up this fall. Best get consumption down now or
you will pay dearly in the months ahead.

Cheers,
Paul

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 22 May 2008 08:00:48 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 20:09:14 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , Paul M. Eldridge
says...

On 21 May 2008 14:54:46 -0700, Banty wrote:

[... snip ...]

Thanks, Paul.

Well, I have pretty much decided already to sit on my oil fired Burnham and
tankless coil system for awhile (windows have been replaced and some insulation
work has been done, too!).

But the question that bugs me is - if the boiler gives out and I have to make a
decision regarding a primary heat source tomorrow (no, let's say, January 18
2009 ;-), what would be the best way to go.

Banty

Hi Banty,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict what will happen in the
energy marketplace, one, five or ten years from now but I can tell you
that I'm in meetings this week with a senior representative from a
major New England utility and he's painting a rather bleak picture and
from what he's been telling us, his fears appear to be well founded.
I don't say this lightly, but if you haven't already taken steps to
make your home more energy efficient and to reduce your personal
energy needs to the greatest extent possible, I strongly advise you to
do so now.

Well, OK, of course. Which makes me glad (if I weren't glad enough already)
that I've tightened up the house with new Marvin windows and added insulation
where it was found to be lacking.

But what I'm trying to get at is - should I be ready to make a conversion from
oil should my boiler go, or is propane (I'd have to have a propane tank) and
electric going to follow oil anyway?

Banty


Hi Banty,

FWIW, the previous owners of my home used some 5,700 litres (1,505
gallons) of heating oil a year for space heating and domestic hot
water purposes and with various thermal upgrades plus the addition of
a ductless heat pump, I was able to get that down to 700 litres last
year. Now, with a small electric water heater pre-feeding my boiler's
indirect tank, that number should drop to perhaps something in the
range of 250 litres (66 gallons). When you get your consumption down
to this level the price of fuel oil could double or triple overnight
and your out-of-pocket expenses are still minimal. Had I done nothing
at all, today, I'd be paying over $7,000.00 a year to heat my home; as
it stands now, I pay less than $700.00 and our winters are
significantly colder than those of Buffalo, NY.

If money were no object and you wanted to stick with a central heating
system, then a ground source heat pump would likely be your best bet.
However, at the end of the day, one or two ultra high-efficiency
Fujitsu 12RLQ ductless heat pumps could reduce your home heating costs
by almost as much but, in this case, your upfront costs would be
substantially lower and the money you save could be used to pay for
additional upgrades to your home's thermal envelope. To me, this is a
more sensible way to go.

BTW, crude oil is currently trading at $134.75 a barrel and the Nymex
heating oil futures price is $3.96 a gallon. Retail is normally
another $0.60 to $0.75 above that so, as of now, residential fuel oil
would be priced at $4.60 to $4.70 a gallon. You should expect to pay
**at least** $5.00 by this fall and perhaps $6.00 if things continue
at their current pace. So for a homeowner who uses an average of
1,000 gallons a year, budget $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 just to be safe
(the cost to fill a 275 gallon tank that's roughly 1/4 full could be
$1,000.00+).

I'm trying hard not to be alarmist, but when I say I'm being told the
situation in New England this coming winter will be bleak I mean this
in the truest sense of the word.

Thanks, Paul.

I'll look into the heat pump - I take it it greatly raises the efficiency of
circulation. For my primary, should it go, maybe I should go for the downsized
indirect tank system but stick with oil as other fuel options aren't great
either. And emphasize conservation. As in the end the only real way to address
this.

One thought I had when backing out of the System 2000 (other than getting a
stong feeling I should rethink everything, and that I had time to do so) was
that the $$$ could better be put into a few more things, like replacing certain
doors.

My house isn't particularly well situated for solar (north side of a hill, with
the major roof surfaces facing east and west), but maybe there's something I
could do there too.

Banty


Hi Banty,

Crude oil hit $135.09 yesterday and is trading this morning slightly
lower ($132.27). However, heating oil futures are now $3.991 a gallon
so, again, based on normal margins, we should expect to pay between
$4.60 to $4.75 a gallon retail. Due to a growing world-wide demand
for distillates, that will most likely pass the $5.00 mark within the
next few weeks. [Looking at this week's numbers, U.S. distillate
inventories, which includes both heating oil and diesel came in
800,000 barrels below analyst expectations.]

So, again, homeowners who heat with oil will be in for a shock when
their tanks are topped up this fall. Best get consumption down now or
you will pay dearly in the months ahead.

Cheers,
Paul

Well, thanks, but no news there.

Looked into the heat pump, BTW. Not recommended for where most of our heating
needs are when the outside temps are well below freezing. Plus I already have
A/C.

Banty