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#1
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Hello,
Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob |
#2
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 17, 10:38*am, "Robert11" wrote:
Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. *Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! * The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? *Thoughts on ? BTW: *If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob After a major strike costed our insurance co 10000 + we installed one and a Lightning arrestor, there is better stuff out there but it costs more. An electrician that hasnt used one? Maybe you need one who is up to date on these issues and what you really need. |
#3
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
In article ,
"Robert11" wrote: Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob I'd guess that for $80, you're just buying a single premium lightening strike insurance policy. If you want actual protection, look to the professional stuff: http://www.lightningprotectioncor.com/ Give my friend Chester a call out there and he can recommend something. |
#4
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 17, 11:38 am, "Robert11" wrote:
Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob From what I see on the web, the unit would be fed through a standard 15A dual-pole breaker, so if it shorted, the breaker would trip, and you'd be running normally, with no protection, until you replaced the unit (and maybe the breaker). The write up on the LPS unit, which another responder has linked to, says it pretty clearly: "These SPD’s are not repairable. A defective SPD fails short circuit, in which case the line/branch fuses or breakers operate. A prolonged short circuit may open, and in the process cause rupture of the SPD elements. " My guess is the sames goes for the Intermatic. Chip C Toronto |
#5
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Smitty Two wrote: In article , "Robert11" wrote: Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob I'd guess that for $80, you're just buying a single premium lightening strike insurance policy. If you want actual protection, look to the professional stuff: http://www.lightningprotectioncor.com/ Give my friend Chester a call out there and he can recommend something. You should not think of lightning protection and surge protection as being synonymous. There are plenty of surges on the power lines that have nothing to do with lightning. I put the Square D "Surge Breaker" in my QO panel, I don't recall the exact price but I think it was well below $80. The normal surge suppressers work well for non lightning line surges as well as induced surges from nearby lightning strikes. They complement, not replace lightning protection devices such as air terminals (lightning rods) and other technologies. In any event it is not generally economical to lightning harden a residence to the point of being able to survive a direct hit. |
#6
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Robert11 wrote:
Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. The one you are considering handles 1200 joules and 48,000 Amps. Usually this is adequate to handle typical power-line surges (blown transformer, re-connect time, etc.). It they take a hit, they keep on working (unless it's a direct lightning strike!). They indicate when they no longer are working (I think by yelling "help"). Use of this device does not remove the need for more modest surge protectors on individual devices. The Intermatic protects against surges from outside your home, but it's possible a device inside your home could generate a surge affecting stuff on the house side of the Intermatic. We have one on our office service (not this model, but the same idea). We've never been bothered by a power surges. We've never been bothered by stampeding elephants either, so that's not much of a testimonial. |
#7
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
"Pete C." wrote in message t... Smitty Two wrote: In article , "Robert11" wrote: Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob I'd guess that for $80, you're just buying a single premium lightening strike insurance policy. If you want actual protection, look to the professional stuff: http://www.lightningprotectioncor.com/ Give my friend Chester a call out there and he can recommend something. You should not think of lightning protection and surge protection as being synonymous. There are plenty of surges on the power lines that have nothing to do with lightning. I put the Square D "Surge Breaker" in my QO panel, I don't recall the exact price but I think it was well below $80. The normal surge suppressers work well for non lightning line surges as well as induced surges from nearby lightning strikes. They complement, not replace lightning protection devices such as air terminals (lightning rods) and other technologies. In any event it is not generally economical to lightning harden a residence to the point of being able to survive a direct hit. I'll second that. We have a neighbor that took a lightening hit that did NOT come through the power lines. It took out a couple of TVs as well as a DSL modem and a video card. Maybe some other stuff, but that's all I remember. I unplug sensitive electronics when a thunder storm is close. And don't forget modems: Disconnect the signal path in either cable or phone line based modems. That's inexpensive protection. Charlie in SW Florida |
#8
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
"Robert11" wrote in message . .. Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Thanks, Bob Lightning wants the shortest path to earth. Make sure that the electrician installs at least two ground rods and although the code allows them to be a minimum of six feet apart I suggest at least sixteen feet between rods. |
#9
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
MOVs normally fail in thermal runaway and low resistance. All surge suppressors (US) should be listed under UL1449. UL1449 requires overheating MOVs be disconnected by a thermal disconnect. That means that you regular old circuit breaker in you main panel will "protect" the MOV from thermal runaway. Trouble is that once the CB trips you lose protection until to notice the open breaker. One would think that "someone" would make a MOV equiped device with a self-resetting thermal breaker as part of the design. ALL of them seem to have either fuxes or the MOV self-destructs in a way that doesn't set the device on fire or create a short. Carefully follow the manufacturer’s instructions. Keeping connecting wires short is very important. Well, it takes te impulse a little more than a nano-second to travel a foot. If the response time of the MOV is measured in micro or even mili seconds, the length of the wiring just doesn't make any difference. Everything I saw at the Intermatic site indicated that their service panel suppressors were MOV based. I didn’t see anything at lightningprotectioncor.com on why their suppressors would be superior. Equipment most likely to be damaged has connection to both power and signal (phone, cable). Amen! If a strong surge produces a 1000A current to earth, and the resistance to earth is a very good 10 ohms, the voltage at the service ‘ground’ will rise to 10,000V above ‘absolute ground’. The way to protect equipment is to keep the ground reference for power and phone and cable at the same potential. Yep! That requires a *short* ‘ground’ wire from phone and cable entry protectors to the ‘ground’ at the power service. That's why all utility wires are supposed to come into the house at the same general location so that the grounds can be bonded together. The "cable folks" often don't bother. Ditto for the "dish" folks. With adequate ratings, using service panel suppressors, and plug-in suppressors on “sensitive” electronics with power and signal connections, you can protect against almost all lightning (not including a direct strike to the house - very uncommon). Well, you can get "local" break out boxes that will protect AC plugs and 1 or 2 coax and/or 1 or 2 phone lines. If the grounds are bonded well at the electric service grounds I suspect that your local suppressor may have a shorter than expected life. If using a plug-in suppressor, all wiring (power, phone, cable, ...) going to a set of protected equipment must go through the suppressor. AMEN! -- bud-- ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
#10
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From OP: Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 18, 2:07 pm, "Robert11" wrote:
Thanks for help and info. Appreciate it. You are right; the 4870 model doesn't seem to be listed anymore. Probably replaced by something newer. Will give them a call Monday and ask. Accurate replies define protection as earth ground. No protector is protection. Protection is where that surge energy gets dissipated - earth ground. Protectors are simply connecting devices to earth. Therefore the Intermatic will only be as effective as the earth ground - as others have noted. That means a breaker box ground wire should not go up over the foundation and down to earth. Instead, that ground wire should be through the foundation and down to earth. Every wire foot shorter means better surge protection. No sharp bends. No splices. And all grounds (telephone, cable) make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to this earthing electrode. Most electricians don't have the 'radio frequency electricity' knowledge to appreciate why sharp wire bends to earth means diminished protection. That ground wire must be rerouted separated from other non-earthing wires. Remember, that ground wire is carrying lightning electricity into earth. Telephone NID box also has a 'whole house' protector. That protector also must be earthed to the same common point. Cable TV needs no protector since it gets earthed only with a wire. But again, connection should be 'less than 10 feet', no sharp bends, etc. How to make that Intermatic even better? Expand a single point earth ground with more rods or buried bare copper wire. If your utilities do not enter at a common location, then the buried wire interconnects all ground electrodes to create a single point ground and to further enhance earthing. See a utility app note: http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm Most electricians don't understand why they must 'exceed' post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements since electricians only understand 60 Hertz electricity - not RF electricity. What makes any protector effective? Its connection to earth. Same protector that makes lightning surges irrelevant also makes irrelevant the 'inside the house' surge. If household appliances are creating surges, then you are trooping daily to hardware stores for new dimmer switches, clock radios, and bathroom GFCIs. Why are you not replacing these devices daily? Protection inside all electronics makes those 'inside the house' surges completely irrelevant. Install a 'whole house' protector so that significant protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. IOW we install protectors to earth direct lightning strikes and to remain functional. Yes, MOV protectors are sufficient sized to earth direct lightning and not fail. Then protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. How good will that protection be? How good is your earthing connection - both with better electrodes AND with shorter wire connections? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where surge energy must be dissipated. |
#11
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
John Gilmer wrote:
MOVs normally fail in thermal runaway and low resistance. All surge suppressors (US) should be listed under UL1449. UL1449 requires overheating MOVs be disconnected by a thermal disconnect. That means that you regular old circuit breaker in you main panel will "protect" the MOV from thermal runaway. Trouble is that once the CB trips you lose protection until to notice the open breaker. The UL required "thermal disconnect" must be close proximity to the MOV and responds when the MOV gets hot at end of life (thermal runaway). It is inside the suppressor. It operates at end of life - the MOV conducts at "normal" voltages. One would think that "someone" would make a MOV equiped device with a self-resetting thermal breaker as part of the design. ALL of them seem to have either fuxes or the MOV self-destructs in a way that doesn't set the device on fire or create a short. A well designed suppressor matches internal protection to the MOVs. They disconnect the MOVs when they are at end of life. For overvoltage (much longer duration than surge and will rapidly destroy MOVs) a few plug-in suppressors will disconnect and save MOVs and protected equipment. Carefully follow the manufacturer’s instructions. Keeping connecting wires short is very important. Well, it takes te impulse a little more than a nano-second to travel a foot. If the response time of the MOV is measured in micro or even mili seconds, the length of the wiring just doesn't make any difference. The response time of MOVs is negligible. And surge rise times are over a microsecond. The problem is voltage drop. Surges are short duration events and thus basically high frequency. The inductance of wire dominates over resistance. The IEEE guide on surges and surge protection: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf has information on lead length and voltage drop (pdf page 32). At 3,000A surge current, 6 inches of lead adds 70 volts to the clamp voltage. Equipment most likely to be damaged has connection to both power and signal (phone, cable). Amen! If a strong surge produces a 1000A current to earth, and the resistance to earth is a very good 10 ohms, the voltage at the service ‘ground’ will rise to 10,000V above ‘absolute ground’. The way to protect equipment is to keep the ground reference for power and phone and cable at the same potential. Yep! That requires a *short* ‘ground’ wire from phone and cable entry protectors to the ‘ground’ at the power service. That's why all utility wires are supposed to come into the house at the same general location so that the grounds can be bonded together. The "cable folks" often don't bother. Ditto for the "dish" folks. It seems like a fairly common problem for signal services to be at distant points. Cable installers are notorious for not correctly bonding to power service grounds. Dish is probably worse. The IEEE guide has an example of a cable service with too long a ‘ground’ wire causing a high voltage between cable and power wires (starting pdf pabe 40). The guide says that if a short interconnect cannot be made "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector." (You could also run the cable to near the power service, install a second ground block, and distribute from there.) With adequate ratings, using service panel suppressors, and plug-in suppressors on “sensitive” electronics with power and signal connections, you can protect against almost all lightning (not including a direct strike to the house - very uncommon). Well, you can get "local" break out boxes that will protect AC plugs and 1 or 2 coax and/or 1 or 2 phone lines. If the grounds are bonded well at the electric service grounds I suspect that your local suppressor may have a shorter than expected life. "Local suppressor" is plug-in suppressor? Should have easier life if interconnection at services is short - would have less use of voltage limiting device from signal to plug-in suppressor ground. If using a plug-in suppressor, all wiring (power, phone, cable, ...) going to a set of protected equipment must go through the suppressor. AMEN! -- bud-- |
#12
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 17, 3:50*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert11 wrote: Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. *Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! * The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? *Thoughts on ? BTW: *If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. What is this claim based on? If they don't use MOV's what exactly do they use? Also, this would seem to imply that MOV's are not considered electronic components, but I believe by any reasonable definition, they are electronic components. The one you are considering handles 1200 joules and 48,000 Amps. Usually this is adequate to handle typical power-line surges (blown transformer, re-connect time, etc.). It they take a hit, they keep on working (unless it's a direct lightning strike!). They indicate when they no longer are working (I think by yelling "help"). Use of this device does not remove the need for more modest surge protectors on individual devices. The Intermatic protects against surges from outside your home, but it's possible a device inside your home could generate a surge affecting stuff on the house side of the Intermatic. We have one on our office service (not this model, but the same idea). We've never been bothered by a power surges. We've never been bothered by stampeding elephants either, so that's not much of a testimonial.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#13
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From OP: Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
w_tom wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:07 pm, "Robert11" wrote: Thanks for help and info. Appreciate it. You are right; the 4870 model doesn't seem to be listed anymore. Probably replaced by something newer. Will give them a call Monday and ask. The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf - "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001 The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. Therefore the Intermatic will only be as effective as the earth ground - as others have noted. That means a breaker box ground wire should not go up over the foundation and down to earth. Instead, that ground wire should be through the foundation and down to earth. Every wire foot shorter means better surge protection. No sharp bends. No splices. And all grounds (telephone, cable) make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to this earthing electrode. Even with a very good resistance to earth of 10 ohms and a fairly strong earth current of 1,000A the power system ground rises to 10,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. Protection has more to do with keeping ground references together - short 'ground' wires from signal entrance protectors to the 'ground' at the power service. The NIST surge guru, and author of the NIST guide, has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system." The priority is not short connection to the same earthing electrode. The priority is short connection from signal entry protectors to the 'ground' at the power service. Cable TV needs no protector since it gets earthed only with a wire. "Needs no protector"? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning." (A plug-in suppressor will limit the voltage from core to shield.) What makes any protector effective? Its connection to earth. For plug-in suppressors, the IEEE guide explains (starting pdf page 40) they work primarily by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. Same protector that makes lightning surges irrelevant also makes irrelevant the 'inside the house' surge. If household appliances are creating surges, then you are trooping daily to hardware stores for new dimmer switches, clock radios, and bathroom GFCIs. According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. Install a 'whole house' protector so that significant protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Service panel suppressors are a real good idea. What does the NIST guide say? "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." A service panel suppressor by itself does not guarantee there will not be damaging voltage between power and signal wires. -- bud-- |
#14
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
bud-- wrote:
According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. Install a 'whole house' protector so that significant protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Service panel suppressors are a real good idea. What does the NIST guide say? "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." A service panel suppressor by itself does not guarantee there will not be damaging voltage between power and signal wires. A phone line is the most dangerous line in your house, unless you have speakers in trees. We worked on a smart house that had $40,000 in equipment damage when lightning hit a tree next to the pool. It travelled the speaker lines into the house, thru the distributed sound system, thru the distributed tv antenna system, thru the phone and security system and the centralized lighting control. Everything was tied together. The grounding system did work, at least there were no fires. Kitchen appliances were about the only thing unaffected. Everything was put pack in place, except speakers and lights in the trees. Opto isolators with transorbs were added where the systems were directly interconnected. -- larry/dallas |
#15
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
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#16
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Bob F wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message news:VM2dnfrrp- Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. The one you are considering handles 1200 joules and 48,000 Amps. Usually this is adequate to handle typical power-line surges (blown transformer, re-connect time, etc.). It they take a hit, they keep on working (unless it's a direct lightning strike!). They indicate when they no longer are working (I think by yelling "help"). Use of this device does not remove the need for more modest surge protectors on individual devices. The Intermatic protects against surges from outside your home, but it's possible a device inside your home could generate a surge affecting stuff on the house side of the Intermatic. Why would the intermatic not absorb in-house surges? The suggestion comes from the Intermatic web site. I presume because everything on the same side of the device causing the surge - including the Intermatic - is exposed to the surge. It's not the path of least resistance; it's everything. |
#18
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
"HeyBub" wrote in message ... Bob F wrote: "HeyBub" wrote in message news:VM2dnfrrp- Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. The one you are considering handles 1200 joules and 48,000 Amps. Usually this is adequate to handle typical power-line surges (blown transformer, re-connect time, etc.). It they take a hit, they keep on working (unless it's a direct lightning strike!). They indicate when they no longer are working (I think by yelling "help"). Use of this device does not remove the need for more modest surge protectors on individual devices. The Intermatic protects against surges from outside your home, but it's possible a device inside your home could generate a surge affecting stuff on the house side of the Intermatic. Why would the intermatic not absorb in-house surges? The suggestion comes from the Intermatic web site. I presume because everything on the same side of the device causing the surge - including the Intermatic - is exposed to the surge. It's not the path of least resistance; it's everything. I would imagine that the suppressor would absorb the surge to keep it from passing on to other circuits at the breaker panel. |
#19
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 18, 9:35*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote: On Apr 17, 3:50 pm, "HeyBub" wrote: Robert11 wrote: Hello, Having a new service box installed in a residence. Electrician has never used these before, so thought I'd ask here. Was thinking of purchasing, and having him install, an Intermatic Whole House Surge Suppressor Model 4870 in the new box. Have had several large lightning storms in the past, and one nearby strike fried the control board on our furnace ! The Intermatic unit isn't all that expensive, about $80 or so. Any of you folks ever used this model ? Worth doing ? Thoughts on ? BTW: If they do ever take a big hit, do they (usually) fail open or closed ? e.g., would the MOV's be shorting the hot to neutral/ground after a big hit, such that the unit would have to be removed prior to re-initiating service ? Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. What is this claim based on? * *If they don't use MOV's what exactly do they use? * Also, this would seem to imply that MOV's are not considered electronic components, but I believe by any reasonable definition, they are electronic components. You're right, of course. MOV are classified as "electronic" components. But metallic-oxide-varistors work like reverse fuses: they short their terminals together. And, like fuses, they (usually) only work once with no indication (other than sometimes smoke) that they won't work again. Sophisticated electronic circuitry can bleed off surges to ground and continue to function indefinitely. It is the existence of this circuitry that's the difference between a $3.00 "surge-suppression" outlet strip and a $50.00 one.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I think I've answered the question myself. Below is an excerpt from Intermatics datasheets from both a residential and also a commercial/ industrial unit that clearly say both do in fact use MOV's and say nothing about any alternate "sophisticated electronic circuitry." I don;t know of any such alternate components that can handle the huge currents that MOV's can which is why they are used in all the surge protectors that I've seen. If you have any alternate reference, we'd like to see it. Residential: Features and Applications: The IG1240RC features six modes of protection and is recommended for residential and light commercial applications. It is intended for installation on 120/240 volt AC panels. The IG1240RC incorporates the newest developments in MOV technology and provides individual component thermal protection and monitoring. Commercial: For installation in Category "C & B" locations ! Service Entrance, Distribution Panels and Sub-panels ! Parallel installation ! 125k Amps Peak Surge Capacity per mode ! All mode suppression for systems with a neutral ! Line-to-Line, Line-to-Neutral, Line-to-Ground, Neutral-to-Ground ! 6 mode suppression for systems with no neutral ! Line-to-Line, Line-to-Ground ! Integral Disconnect Switch with safety interlock ! Easily replaceable master surge module ! 40k Amp MOVs ! 200k AIC Surge Rated Fuses |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Pete C. wrote:
HeyBub wrote: wrote: On Apr 17, 3:50 pm, "HeyBub" wrote: Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. What is this claim based on? If they don't use MOV's what exactly do they use? Also, this would seem to imply that MOV's are not considered electronic components, but I believe by any reasonable definition, they are electronic components. You're right, of course. MOV are classified as "electronic" components. But metallic-oxide-varistors work like reverse fuses: they short their terminals together. And, like fuses, they (usually) only work once with no indication (other than sometimes smoke) that they won't work again. MOVs will continue to work indefinitely if their rated clamping current isn't exceeded, so they will readily clamp on the modest surges seen every day. The mega surges from a really close lightning strike or a tree branch dropping the primaries into the secondaries is what will cause the MOV to self destruct and usually trip the circuit breaker in the process thereby sacrificing itself to save the stuff downstream of it. While MOVs are good with very short duration surges, dropping a primary wire onto secondaries will rapidly destroy a MOV as you describe. Then protection is gone. UL requires thermal disconnects for failing MOVs. The specs from trader4 include “200k AIC Surge Rated Fuses” which indicate that suppressor can be used on in a panel with an available fault current (not surge related) of 200,000A. The suppressor may also trip a circuit breaker, but protection should be internal. I believe the maximum likely surge current on one of the hot service wires is 10,000A based on a very strong 100,000A surge hitting the high voltage wire on the pole behind your house. The spec from trader4 is 40,000A per wire for that suppressor, which is well beyond what is likely. MOVs also have an energy (Joule) rating, which is cumulative. The 40,000A rating goes with a very high Joule rating, which means the suppressor can take many hits. If a MOV had a 1000J rating, it is for a single surge. If the individual hits were much smaller, like 100J, the cumulative rating is much higher than 1000J. When the energy rating is exceeded, the MOV starts to conduct at lower voltages, eventually conducting at ‘normal’ voltages and failing in thermal runaway. Without a service panel suppressor, there will be arc over to panel ground at about 6,000V. After it is established, the arc voltage will be hundreds of volts. That dumps most of the surge energy to earth. For plug-in suppressors, the impedance of the branch circuit wiring greatly limits the current, and thus the energy, that can reach the suppressor. Combined with arc over, the energy that can reach a plug-in suppressor is surprisingly small (unless the branch circuit is very short). -- bud-- |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
HeyBub wrote:
wrote: Intermatic surge protectors do not use MOVs - they are electronic. What is this claim based on? If they don't use MOV's what exactly do they use? Also, this would seem to imply that MOV's are not considered electronic components, but I believe by any reasonable definition, they are electronic components. You're right, of course. MOV are classified as "electronic" components. But metallic-oxide-varistors work like reverse fuses: they short their terminals together. And, like fuses, they (usually) only work once with no indication (other than sometimes smoke) that they won't work again. Sophisticated electronic circuitry can bleed off surges to ground and continue to function indefinitely. It is the existence of this circuitry that's the difference between a $3.00 "surge-suppression" outlet strip and a $50.00 one.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I think I've answered the question myself. Below is an excerpt from Intermatics datasheets from both a residential and also a commercial/ industrial unit that clearly say both do in fact use MOV's and say nothing about any alternate "sophisticated electronic circuitry." I don;t know of any such alternate components that can handle the huge currents that MOV's can which is why they are used in all the surge protectors that I've seen. If you have any alternate reference, we'd like to see it. Residential: Features and Applications: The IG1240RC features six modes of protection and is recommended for residential and light commercial applications. It is intended for installation on 120/240 volt AC panels. The IG1240RC incorporates the newest developments in MOV technology and provides individual component thermal protection and monitoring. Commercial: For installation in Category "C & B" locations ! Service Entrance, Distribution Panels and Sub-panels ! Parallel installation ! 125k Amps Peak Surge Capacity per mode ! All mode suppression for systems with a neutral ! Line-to-Line, Line-to-Neutral, Line-to-Ground, Neutral-to-Ground ! 6 mode suppression for systems with no neutral ! Line-to-Line, Line-to-Ground ! Integral Disconnect Switch with safety interlock ! Easily replaceable master surge module ! 40k Amp MOVs ! 200k AIC Surge Rated Fuses Ah, okay. Thanks for the info. I thought a quality company like Intermatic would rely on something other than MOVs, such as zener diodes or gas-discharge tubes. Maybe even motor/alternators. If they, in fact, are relying on piece-of-**** MOVs (probably made in China), well, might as well stand naked in the rain. According to the IEEE guide, "the vast majority (90%) of both hard-wired and plug-in protectors use MOVs to perform the voltage-limiting function. In most AC protectors, they are the only significant voltage limiters." Zener diodes and gas discharge tubes don't have the energy dissipation capacity of MOVs in a small volume. MOVs dissipate the energy throughout the volume of the device, where a zener diode dissipates the energy at a 'junction'. Other devices with high capacity are arc gaps and silicon carbide devices (another form of MOV). I don't see a practical component solution in your list. You have not said why MOVs are a POS. You could certainly use a motor/alternator. Depending on how much you are protecting it might only cost a few thousand dollars. Or a full-time conversion UPS for your house? (But what protects the UPS?) Or maybe a ferroresonant transformer? You could use it to help heat the house. Or maybe a full-time off-grid generator? And get rid of the troublesome phone and cable lines? -- bud-- |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 18, 3:00 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
That means that you regular old circuit breaker in you main panel will "protect" the MOV from thermal runaway. Trouble is that once the CB trips you lose protection until to notice the open breaker. One would think that "someone" would make a MOV equiped device with a self-resetting thermal breaker as part of the design. ALL of them seem to have either fuxes or the MOV self-destructs in a way that doesn't set the device on fire or create a short. If the MOV got that 'hot' as to open a thermal fuse, it was grossly undersized – operating in complete violation of its manufacturer. Grossly undersizing is common with plug-in protectors since profit margins are more important than effective protection. MOVs much shunt (clamp, divert, connect) surges to earth AND remain *functional*. Those promoting plug-in protectors forget to mention that a protector must not fail by blowing the thermal fuse. Any MOV that gets so hot as to trip a thermal fuse was violating MOV manufacturer specs and providing no effective protection. The only acceptable MOV failure means no excessive heat - no MOV vaporization. But such failures get the naive to recommend more protectors - increase sales. Again, which is more important – profits or protection? Scary pictures demonstrate problem with grossly undersized protectors that still have UL 1449 approval. Not only do we instead install one properly sized 'whole house' protector. We also do not want protectors located on a rug or adjacent to a pile of desktop papers. The scary pictures demonstrate a 'too common' problem with plug-in protectors that Bud promotes for: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/ |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
w_tom wrote:
If the MOV got that 'hot' as to open a thermal fuse, it was grossly undersized – operating in complete violation of its manufacturer. Grossly undersizing is common with plug-in protectors since profit margins are more important than effective protection. In w_’s mind, plug-in suppressors have minuscule ratings and service panel suppressors have mega ratings. But plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings for relatively low cost. And branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current, and thus energy that gets to a plug-in suppressor. Scary pictures demonstrate problem with grossly undersized protectors that still have UL 1449 approval. None of w_’s links say any damaged suppressor even had a UL label. The scary pictures demonstrate a 'too common' problem with plug-in protectors that Bud promotes for: Lacking technical arguments about plug-in suppressors, w_ tries to discredit people who expose his drivel. All I promote is accurate information. http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 Lacking valid technical arguments all w_ has is pathetic scare tactics. His hanford link is about "some older model" power strips and says overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that required thermal disconnects. That was 1998. The hanford failure was in 1999 - a one year old suppressor? There is no reason to believe, from *any* of these links, that there is a problem with suppressors produced under the UL standard that has been in effect since 1998. For accurate information on plug-in suppressors read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective. -- bud-- |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 20, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
In w_’s mind, plug-in suppressors have minuscule ratings and service panel suppressors have mega ratings. But plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings for relatively low cost. And branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current, and thus energy that gets to a plug-in suppressor. w_tom is not promoting for a plug-in manufacturer. Bud is. 'Scary pictures' are a problem with plug-in protectors designed to maximize profits and that do not even claim to provide protection. Protectors located on flammable materials such as a rug or adjacent to a pile of desktop papers: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol or http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/ Bud is repeatedly asked for plug-in manufacturer specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. Manufacturer’s specs don't even list protection from any type of surge. So Bud pretends the request does not exist. Bud cannot provide numbers that plug-in manufacturers will not provide. Bud must deny this problem with plug-in protectors. Bud will even belittle others. And still Bud will not provide a single manufacturer spec that claims protection. But will not even admit who he is promoting for. Protectors that do not even claim to provide protection - but are so profitable. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. That profit margin explains why plug-in protectors are promoted. Even manufacturer specs do not claim to provide protection. No wonder Bud will never provide those spec numbers. Honesty might endanger profits. |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
w_tom wrote:
On Apr 20, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote: In w_’s mind, plug-in suppressors have minuscule ratings and service panel suppressors have mega ratings. But plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings for relatively low cost. And branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current, and thus energy that gets to a plug-in suppressor. w_tom is not promoting for a plug-in manufacturer. Bud is. To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association with surge protectors is I have some. Lacking valid technical arguments w_ lies. 'Scary pictures' are a problem with plug-in protectors designed to maximize profits and that do not even claim to provide protection. Lacking valid technical arguments w_ repeats the 'scary' lie. w_ has no source that says UL listed plug–in suppressors produced after 1998 are a fire hazard. Bud is repeatedly asked for plug-in manufacturer specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. Lacking valid technical arguments w_ invents issues. "Each type of surge" is nonsense. Plug-in suppressors have MOVs from H-G, N-G, H-N. That is all possible combinations and all possible surge modes. w_ favored SquareD service panel suppressors do not list "each type of surge". w_ has never explained how "common mode" surges get past the N–G bond required in US services. And still Bud will not provide a single manufacturer spec that claims protection. The last plug-in suppressor I bought (about $25) had 1 MOV that was 1475J, 75,000A and 2 that were 590J 30,000A. w_ will likely ignore this and continue to ask for specs, as usual. But will not even admit who he is promoting for. 3rd repetition of the lie. Too bad w_ doesn't have technical arguments. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. Provide a source for a 1475J 75,000A MOV for ten cents. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. Read the sources. There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics, and w_ can't find another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Never answered - simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? –- bud-- |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 21, 12:29 pm, bud-- wrote:
The last plug-in suppressor I bought (about $25) had 1 MOV that was 1475J, 75,000A and 2 that were 590J 30,000A. w_ will likely ignore this and continue to ask for specs, as usual. A plug-in protector uses maybe 1/3rd and never more than 2/3rds of it joules in protection. When a plug-in protector has other connections (ie telephone, cable, ethernet), those numbers decrease. Meanwhile, 'whole house' protectors from responsible companies (GE, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Keison, etc) use ALL joules for protection. Using all joules means the same sized 'whole house' protector may last eight times longer and can divert even more surge into earth. Did Bud forget to mention that? Profit would be at risk. Bud still provides not one plug-in manufacturer spec that actually claims protection. Protection numbers cannot be quoted when no - not one - plug-in protector manufacturers claims that protection. Oh. $25 for one plug-in protector ... that does not even claim to provide protection? One whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. That 'whole house' protector also does not earth surges destructively 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent appliance - Page 42 Figure 8 from Bud's citation. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is the point quoted in every Bud citation: You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. How does that protector without a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth "divert it to ground, where it can do no harm"? It cannot *divert* to what it does not connect to. Same point demonstrated in two front page articles in Electrical Engineering Times entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". Where do they discuss plug-in protectors? They don't. The article is about effective surge protection. It discusses earth ground and connections to earth ground; what provides protection. A homeowner upgrades building earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 NEC code, and installs a 'whole house' protector from responsible companies. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why effective protectors have that short and dedicated wire to earth ground. How to identify the ineffective protector: 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection which is why some will even 'forget' how few joules actually get used in protection. |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
w_tom wrote:
On Apr 21, 12:29 pm, bud-- wrote: The last plug-in suppressor I bought (about $25) had 1 MOV that was 1475J, 75,000A and 2 that were 590J 30,000A. w_ will likely ignore this and continue to ask for specs, as usual. A plug-in protector uses maybe 1/3rd and never more than 2/3rds of it joules in protection. Poor w_ can invent the stupidest arguments. 75,000A, the MOV that takes most of the hit, is far larger than needed in a service panel suppressor. There is no possibility of getting that current on a branch circuit. The high value just goes with the high energy ratings. Investigation by the author of the NIST guide with surges up to 10,000A on a branch circuit with a MOV at the end found in 13 of 15 cases the amount of energy absorbed by the MOV was less than 1.2J. The maximum was 35J. Arc-over at the panel and impedance of the branch circuit simply limit the current, and thus energy, that can reach a plug-in suppressor. The ratings in my suppressor are far over what it will see making the likelihood of ever failing essentially zero. Bud still provides not one plug-in manufacturer spec that actually claims protection. What an idiot. One whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Counting light bulbs and switches as "appliances". A protector is only as effective as its earth ground And the required statement of religious belief in earthing. Poor w_’s religious blinders prevent him from reading in the IEEE guide that plug–in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. Still missing - link another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Still missing – answers to simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work Never any sources that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Twists opposing sources to say the opposite of what they really say. Attempts to discredit opponents. w_ is a purveyor of junk science. For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective. -- bud-- |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 22, 1:04*pm, bud-- wrote:
w_tom wrote: On Apr 21, 12:29 pm, bud-- wrote: The last plug-in suppressor I bought (about $25) had 1 MOV that was 1475J, 75,000A and 2 that were 590J 30,000A. *w_ will likely ignore this and continue to ask for specs, as usual. * A plug-in protector uses maybe 1/3rd and never more than 2/3rds of it joules in protection. Poor w_ can invent the stupidest arguments. *75,000A, the MOV that takes most of the hit, is far larger than needed in a service panel suppressor. There is no possibility of getting that current on a branch circuit. The high value just goes with the high energy ratings. Investigation by the author of the NIST guide with surges up to 10,000A on a branch circuit with a MOV at the end found in 13 of 15 cases the amount of energy absorbed by the MOV was less than 1.2J. The maximum was 35J. Arc-over at the panel and impedance of the branch circuit simply limit the current, and thus energy, that can reach a plug-in suppressor. The ratings in my suppressor are far over what it will see making the likelihood of ever failing essentially zero. * *Bud still provides not one plug-in manufacturer spec that actually claims protection. What an idiot. One whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Counting light bulbs and switches as "appliances". A protector is only as effective as its earth ground And the required statement of religious belief in earthing. Poor w_’s religious blinders prevent him from reading in the IEEE guide that plug–in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. Still missing - link another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Still missing – answers to simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work Never any sources that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Twists opposing sources to say the opposite of what they really say. Attempts to discredit opponents. w_ is a purveyor of junk science. For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective. -- bud-- I think both have their uses and as per the IEEE, can complement each other. For example, an issue Tom never addresses is that lots of people are living in an apartment or rented home and they can't install a whole house protector at the panel. And even for those that do have a whole house protector, having secondary protection at the point of use only adds to the protection. Curiously, one of his arguments is that manufacturers of electonic eqpt all include surge protection in the electronic eqpt, so it's already built-in and apparently Tom is OK with that. Yet, the protection used inside electronics like a TV set has no earth ground nearby, without which, according to Tom, surge protection is impossible. In fact, at the appliance, it's even an addional cord length of 6 ft away from earth ground as compared to where a plug-in suppresor would be. So, then how could protection inside the electronics possibly work? I know one thing. If a surge does make it to the outlet, I'd rather have it next encounter the MOVs inside the $20 surge protector, instead of the ones in the $2000 TV. |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 22, 3:14 pm, wrote:
I know one thing. If a surge does make it to the outlet, I'd rather have it next encounter the MOVs inside the $20 surge protector, instead of the ones in the $2000 TV.- Hide quoted text - Review Page 42 Figure 8. A surge arrives on black (hot) wire. Plug- in protector shunts that surge onto white (neutral) and green (safety ground) wires. Now that surge has three paths to find earth ground, 8000 volts destructively, through that TV. Bud's citation that shows what a plug-in protector might do ALSO shows how that same ineffective protector can contribute to appliance damage. w_tom has addressed this apartment problem repeatedly. A kludge. Cut the protector power cord as short as possible. Plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box. This locates the protector as far as possible from appliances and close to earth ground. No, this is not very good protection. But it is an improvement over the worst installation; a protector adjacent to the appliance. Meanwhile, apartments in steel and concrete buildings already have best earthing. Breaker box is bonded to steel. Only needed is a 'whole house' protector - effective earthing already exists. w_tom learned this stuff decades ago in this example. A house without a 'whole house' protector had networked computers; two computers on plug-in protectors. All computers powered off. Plug-in protectors created the damage as demonstrated three paragraphs up. Black wire surge was shunted (connected) to the green wire. Plug-in protector bypassed protection in both computers - put surges into each computer's motherboard and network card. Surge found earth ground via the network, a third computer and its modem. Without plug-in protectors, the surge would not have been shunted (diverted, clamped, bonded) into motherboard - would not have bypassed protection already inside those computers. Better protection would have been no plug-in protector. Or connecting protector to a receptacle at the breaker box - as far as possible from computers to be closer to earth ground. Using a plug-in protector without a properly earthed 'whole hosue' protector can result in adjacent appliance damage - as demonstrated by Bud in his citation Page 42 Figure 8. Plug-in protector can only supplement - cannot replace missing earth ground protection. Without the 'whole house' protector, in so many examples, the plug-in protector then created electronics damage. Only wild speculation says a plug-in protector is better than nothing. A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all surges are same. Had the plug-in protectors not exists, then all networked computers may not have been damaged. We earth surge protectors for a type of surge that typically causes damage AND must be earthed. No way around what must provide protection even in apartments. trader, unlike a sales promoter Bud, I have actually done this. We designed some of this stuff (in custom installations), and learned from mistakes. One mistake - I foolishly thought a plug-in protector was better than nothing. Then lightning taught us some lessons. No way around what provides protection from the typically destructive surge: earth ground. Even the manufacturer will not claim what Bud is posting. Above: plug-in protectors too close to the appliance even made damage possible. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective protection. In multiple examples, plug-in protector was worse than nothing. But good news: it will protect from a surge that typically does not create damage. That means complete protection. |
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 22, 5:49*pm, w_tom wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:14 pm, wrote: I know one thing. *If a surge does make it to the outlet, I'd rather have it next encounter the MOVs inside the $20 surge protector, instead of the ones in the $2000 TV.- Hide quoted text - * Review Page 42 Figure 8. *A surge arrives on black (hot) wire. *Plug- in protector shunts that surge onto white (neutral) and green (safety ground) wires. *Now that surge has three paths to find earth ground, 8000 volts destructively, through that TV. *Bud's citation that shows what a plug-in protector might do ALSO shows how that same ineffective protector can contribute to appliance damage. * w_tom has addressed this apartment problem repeatedly. A kludge. Cut the protector power cord as short as possible. *Plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box. *This locates the protector as far as possible from appliances and close to earth ground. *No, this is not very good protection. *But it is an improvement over the worst installation; a protector adjacent to the appliance. Are you for real? Cut the cord short and plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box? What receptacle attached to what breaker box? Geez, I've lived in many apartments and the only outlets attached to the breaker box were the ones in the wall, which is where everyone, including the IEEE would place the protector. And like cutting the cord from 3 ft to what 1 ft is going to make a significant difference? LOL * Meanwhile, apartments in steel and concrete buildings already have best earthing. *Breaker box is bonded to steel. *Only needed is a 'whole house' protector - effective earthing already exists. * w_tom learned this stuff decades ago in this example. *A house without a 'whole house' protector had networked computers; two computers on plug-in protectors. * Hmmm, couldn't be too many decades ago that a typical house had networked computers... All computers powered off. Plug-in protectors created the damage as demonstrated three paragraphs up. Black wire surge was shunted (connected) to the green wire. *Plug-in protector bypassed protection in both computers - put surges into each computer's motherboard and network card. *Surge found earth ground via the network, a third computer and its modem. *Without plug-in protectors, the surge would not have been shunted (diverted, clamped, bonded) into motherboard - would not have bypassed protection already inside those computers. * How does an external surge protector "bypass" the internal protection? And how exactly is it that the same components inside a computer are going to deal with the surge any differently? Internally, the MOV's have the exact same deployment choices ie hot to neutral, hot to ground, etc that they do in an external surge protector. Unless you're gonna tell us that the TV comes with an earth ground inside it. Better protection would have been no plug-in protector. *Or connecting protector to a receptacle at the breaker box - as far as possible from computers to be closer to earth ground. * Using a plug-in protector without a properly earthed 'whole hosue' protector can result in adjacent appliance damage - as demonstrated by Bud in his citation Page 42 Figure 8. *Plug-in protector can only supplement - cannot replace missing earth ground protection. *Without the 'whole house' protector, in so many examples, the plug-in protector then created electronics damage. Do you have any credible reference, or even any reference at all, other than your own claims of surge protectors causing damage of this type rather than helping prevent it? Funny the IEEE doesn't warn about it. * Only wild speculation says a plug-in protector is better than nothing. * No, only wild speculation says it's worse. Reference please. A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. * Read the label and marking on the box it comes in. Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all surges are same. * Had the plug-in protectors not exists, then all networked computers may not have been damaged. Of course in your jaundiced view, anything that's bad that happens is due to either plug-in surge protectors or human failure. If the cat died, it would be due to the surge protector too. I've had exactly the opposite experience, where electronics connected to plug-in surge protectors came through a lightning storm OK, while one device NOT using one was destroyed. * *We earth surge protectors for a type of surge that typically causes damage AND must be earthed. *No way around what must provide protection even in apartments. * trader, unlike a sales promoter Bud, I have actually done this. *We designed some of this stuff (in custom installations), and learned from mistakes. *One mistake - I foolishly thought a plug-in protector was better than nothing. *Then lightning taught us some lessons. *No way around what provides protection from the typically destructive surge: earth ground. * *Even the manufacturer will not claim what Bud is posting. *Above: plug-in protectors too close to the appliance even made damage possible. *What kind of protection is that? *Ineffective protection. *In multiple examples, *plug-in protector was worse than nothing. *But good news: *it will protect from a surge that typically does not create damage. *That means complete protection. We do get a chuckle here listening to you rant about Bud and trying to discredit him by claiming he sells plug-in surge protectors. How long before you start accusing me too? Actually, I think you have, in the past. |
#32
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Are you insane? It is routine to have receptacles attached a
breaker box. With simple technical grasp of facts, then a receptacle located only feet from the breaker box would be an alternative. Is that so difficult? Well yes if one ignores impedance. It's this difficult. Longer wire means high impedance which is why a six cord power cord is cut as short as possible. Two EE Times front page articles were provided so that trader could learn what is important - low impedance. Trader never read it. Instead trader complains because he cannot find an AC receptacle. Trader, please stop asking for help to find an AC receptacle. Ask your mom. Cutting feet off that protector wire is significant for a kludge protection system. Even sharp wire bends diminish protection. Trader would know that from reading front page EE Times articles entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". Then trader’s next post could be questions based in technology and tempered by numbers. How does protection inside a computer get bypassed? Where does the black wire connect? Where does the green wire connect? Protection inside a computer is substantial where the black wire connects. A green wire surge finds an easy and direct connection - near zero protection - into motherboard electronics. Plug-in protector connects a black wire surge directly into the motherboard - completely bypassing computers best protection. Surge was shunted (connected) to green wire by the plug-in protector. Page 42 Figure 8 also shows what may happen when an adjacent protector does not earth a surge. A surge was earthed 8000 volts destructively through the TV. Same failure created by a protector without earthing was traced through a network of powered off computer. How curious. Where surge damage must never happen, plug-in protectors are not used. Effective surge protection is routinely earthed where wires enter the building and up to 50 meters distant from the computer. Let's see. Damage to electronics because the protector was too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. No damage when protector is attached to earth ground and up to 50 meters distant from electronics. What were you saying about 100 years of no damage when protectors are short to earth ground and separated from electronics? Oh. Trader is still having difficulty finding a wall receptacle near the breaker box. No time to learn the science in an article entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients"? Too much reality? Wire impedance is so significant that manufacturers even consider impedance on one inch MOV wires leads. . Many apartments have such good earthing that only a ‘whole house’ protector is required. Provided is how to kludge a protector in an apartment. It assumes one can find an AC receptacle closest to the breaker box. Responsible companies sell protectors with an earthing connection. We make those protectors even better by upgrading earthing. Then plug- in protectors need not earth surges destructively through appliances. On Apr 22, 8:48 pm, wrote: Are you for real? Cut the cord short and plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box? What receptacle attached to what breaker box? Geez, I've lived in many apartments and the only outlets attached to the breaker box were the ones in the wall, which is where everyone, including the IEEE would place the protector. And like cutting the cord from 3 ft to what 1 ft is going to make a significant difference? LOL ... Hmmm, couldn't be too many decades ago that a typical house had networked computers... All computers powered off. Plug-in How does an external surge protector "bypass" the internal protection? And how exactly is it that the same components inside a computer are going to deal with the surge any differently? Internally, the MOV's have the exact same deployment choices ie hot to neutral, hot to ground, etc that they do in an external surge protector. Unless you're gonna tell us that the TV comes with an earth ground inside it. ... Do you have any credible reference, or even any reference at all, other than your own claims of surge protectors causing damage of this type rather than helping prevent it? Funny the IEEE doesn't warn about it. No, only wild speculation says it's worse. Reference please. A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from ... Read the label and marking on the box it comes in. Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all ... Of course in your jaundiced view, anything that's bad that happens is due to either plug-in surge protectors or human failure. If the cat died, it would be due to the surge protector too. I've had exactly the opposite experience, where electronics connected to plug-in surge protectors came through a lightning storm OK, while one device NOT using one was destroyed. ... |
#33
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 23, 3:08 pm, wrote:
No, but you certainly seem to be. A total nutjob if ever there was one. Anyone who follows you should make sure all of their affairs are in order and their life insurance is paid up so the kids, if they aren't killed too, can still go to college someday. Thank you for a technical reply. Those who were so dumb as to also believe Saddam had WMDs would also prove their intelligence by posting insults. Less responsible companies such as APC and Monster Cable sell those scam plug-in protectors approved by salt@dog. Companies who must make equipment so that a house does not burn down provide 'whole house' protectors. Responsible companies such as Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Keison, Square D, Siemens, and GE. But salty@dog uses venom to know products from these companies will kill kids. As usual, those who insult must know; could not bother to even learn how electricity works. Did you also read the warranty from those plug-in protectors? Chock full of fine print exemption after exemption. For example, if you have a protector from any other company, then the first company will not honor its warranty. What kind of warranty is that? Companies recommended by salty@dog even write warranties that can never be honored. They are preaching to people such as salty@dog who is expert because he can attack - and never posts even one technical number. A majority believe plug-in myths for the same reason a majority also believed Saddam had WMDs. They were told. Therefore it must be true. If facts contradict their reality, then attack the messenger. salty@dog (and 'experts' like him) do this. Venom was also sufficient to prove Saddam had WMDs. Under the new rules of extremism, it must be true only because salty@dog says so. Accurately described is what makes an Intermatic protector so effective. Without an earthed Intermatic, plug-in protectors can even contribute to adjacent appliance damage - Page 42 Figure 8. With the Intermatic and proper earthing, then surges that the plug-in protector might protect from are made irrelevant. Any protector without that short (low impedance) connection to earth ground is ineffective protection - and promoted by salty@dog venom. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground so that surge energy need not dissipate (destroy appliances) inside a building. |
#34
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 23, 3:53*pm, w_tom wrote:
On Apr 23, 3:08 pm, wrote: No, but you certainly seem to be. A total nutjob if ever there was one. Anyone who follows you should make sure all of their affairs are in order and their life insurance is paid up so the kids, if they aren't killed too, can still go to college someday. * Thank you for a technical reply. *Those who were so dumb as to also believe Saddam had WMDs would also prove their intelligence by posting insults. *Less responsible companies such as APC and Monster Cable sell those scam plug-in protectors approved by salt@dog. *Companies who must make equipment so that a house does not burn down provide 'whole house' protectors. *Responsible companies such as Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Keison, Square D, Siemens, and GE. *But salty@dog uses venom to know products from these companies will kill kids. As usual, those who insult must know; could not bother to even learn how electricity works. OK, now we have Tom's list of the "responsible" companies who know all about surge protection. Funny thing though, most of these responsible companies on the list actually sell plug in surge protectors as part of their product lines. Intermatic sells plug-ins: http://www.intermatic.com/Default.as...4&cid=46&did=6 http://www.intermatic.com/Default.as...6&cid=46&did=6 http://www.intermatic.com/Default.as...5&cid=46&did=6 Metal Surge Strips Industrial Point of Use Protection IG11266BLK10 6 outlet metal plug strip surge protection with 10 foot cord and lighted on/off switch. 15 amp resettable breaker. Black metal housing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Metal Surge Protection Devices IG11246 4 outlet metal plug strip surge protection with 6 foot cord and lighted on/off switch. 15 amp resettable breaker. So does Leviton: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...minisite=10028 Leviton Surge Protection Strips provide surge protection in a variety of everyday applications. They are ideal for various residential needs and at commercial workstations to protect computers and peripherals. All models feature resettable circuit breakers. The 5300 series features an LED, which indicates protection is active. It is also available in a hospital grade model. So does GE: http://www.jascoproducts.com/product...?idCategory=33 GE Home Surge Protectors Home Our Products GE Home Electric Products GE Home Surge Protectors Sort by: SKU Description High Price Low Price GE 10-Outlet Surge Protector - 3090 Joules Price $39.99 Protects the phone line and coaxial line. Here's what Siemens has to say about plug-ins: http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Products...anguagecode=en "Point of use products provide a second line of defense. Homeowners can reinforce the protection provided by a point-of-entry protection device by installing surge protectors (strips) and low-voltage surge suppressors. Surge protectors plug into grounded wall receptacles where sensitive electronic equipment is located. These devices defend electronic components against surges from outside, and internally generated transient events (surges) that travel through AC power lines. Low- voltage surge suppressors defend electronic components against surges from outside, and internally generated transient events (surges) that travel through phone, data, and coaxial lines. These plug-in protectors generally have much lower limiting voltages than entry protectors, and provide better protection for electronic equipment. As a homeowner, where do you install these devices? Simply put— anywhere you’ve got expensive or sensitive electronic equipment like computers, VCRs, fax machines, PCs with modems, satellite systems, stereo systems, copiers and scanners. Start by physically inspecting each room to determine which electronics need point-of-use surge protection, what kind of lines and how many plugs you have, and what type of signal lines are connected to each system. As a rule of thumb, all types of equipment with signal lines, such as phones, cable TV, and satellites, should be equipped with low-voltage surge suppressors, which are specially designed to protect the signal lines." That should take care of that specious argument as well as showing how in touch with these companies product lines you really are. BTW, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a plug-in surge protector is either useless or actually causes damage, while similar or identical components located inside the electronics are very effective according to you. How exactly can that be? Inside the appliance the MOVs have exactly the same working limitations they would in the protector strip in terms of connections. In other words, there isn't an earth ground inside the appliance or electronics, which is what you claim any protection must have to be of any value. . So, how is it that the protection can work there, but not in the plug-in? I'm sure you know even less about WMDs. |
#35
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
On Apr 23, 5:59 pm, wrote:
OK, now we have Tom's list of the "responsible" companies who know all about surge protection. Funny thing though, most of these responsible companies on the list actually sell plug in surge protectors as part of their product lines. Names of responsible manufacturers were provided for years. Did trader only read enough to criticize? Why did trader not see this list (and others) posted repeatedly for years? Reading selectively? He did not even read the EE Times article entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". If the consumer is so wealthy and so poorly informed as to spend tens of times more money on plug-in protectors, then I also would sell one to him. Profits are just too obscenely massive to ignore. But I would also recommend and provide effective protectors as responsible manufacturers also do. Which companies sell protectors that actually provide protection? Not APC. Not the $150 Monster Cable. Not Tripplite, Not Belkin. And not the grocery store where a same protector is sold for much less money. Surge protection means surge energy must be dissipated in earth. Plug-in promoters hype myths: protector absorbs all that energy, 'clamps to nothing', or make surge energy disappear. No science supports those myths. But that is what a plug-in protector must do to protect from surges that typically create damage. No earth ground means no effective protection. Worse, plug-in protectors (when the building does not have a properly earthed 'whole house' protector) can even contribute to appliance damage - ie Page 42 Figure 8 and that network of powered off computers. Facilities that must suffer direct lightning strikes to incoming wires without damage always uses 'whole house' type protection. Always. Often used is the same solution that protects munitions from direct lightning strikes - Ufer grounds. In every case, earth ground and 'whole house' protectors are carefully installed. In FL where damage is not acceptable and where earth has poor conductivity, this provides protection: http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg Others do same so that direct lightning strikes need not cause damage: http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm http://www.copper.org/applications/e.../nebraska.html http://home1.gte.net/res0958z/ QST (the ARRL official magazine) has numerous articles on surge protection. Every one discusses what? Not plug-in protectors. Earthing is what every article discussed for no surge damage. Whose household electronics are at greatest risk? Ham radio operators: http://www.eham.net/articles/6848?eh...61e080ac23c416 Electrical Code vs. Good RF Grounding by K9KJM on November 22, 2003 Those who say "nothing will withstand a direct lightning strike" are very misinformed. My towers take direct lightning hits most every big storm. So do most all tall commercial towers. With NO damage! Those old wives tales of damage are for the most part over 50 year old tales of woe from improperly grounded/ protected stations. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) in alt.tv.tech.hdtv on 9 May 2006 in "Is HDTV really user friendly? Options": That tower takes a direct lightning strike about three times a summer. ... Simply grounding the TV antenna by itself may or may not make things worse rather than better. What's required is called a single point ground where all of the grounds tie together Bud routinely responds that homeowners do not have ham radio antennas. Correct. Instead, homeowner appliances are connected to an 'antenna equivalent' wire. To lightning, AC electric wires are 'antennas' connected directly to every household appliance. Same protection learned in early 1900 radio stations is now implemented in all homes for about $1 per protected appliance. A less expensive solution is also the superior one - a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Same solution used routinely in radio stations where surges must not create damage. Your cable company will recommend removing a plug-in protector from their cable. Cable already has effective protection without any protector. Responsible cable companies make that 'less than 10 foot' connection to earthing using only a wire and ground block. Bud will claim that is not sufficient. A properly earthed cable (short connection to single point earth ground) provides complete cable protection: Richard Harrison in rec.radio.amateur.antenna on 26 Jan 2004 in "Damaged by a lightning?": ...we did use a separate ground rod en each tower leg. This was lightning protection. We also used closed circuit antennas grounded at the tops of the towers. Coax rejects common-mode lightning energy. We used zero protection across coax and never had a burnt transistor receiver front-end. What makes the Intermatic 'whole house' protector so effective? A short connection to single point earth ground. How do we make that one protector even better? Money wasted on plug-in protectors, instead, is put into better earthing. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How many more professionals are quoted here? From QST July 2002 "Lightning Protection ..." The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy arriving on the antenna feed line cables and control lines (and to a lesser extent on the power and telephone lines) and give it a path back to the earth, our energy sink. The impedance of the ground connection should be low so the energy prefers this path and is dispersed harmlessly. To achieve a low impedance the ground connection needs to be short (distance), straight, and wide. How curious. This is also what makes the Intermatic surge protector so effective. And this is what plug-in promoters must deny or ignore to promote their obscenely profitable products. The Intermatic is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector has no earthing. Or we cut its power cord as short as possible, connect to as close as possible the breaker box, and hope that provides at least some earthing. |
#36
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
wrote:
On Apr 23, 3:53 pm, w_tom wrote: On Apr 23, 3:08 pm, wrote: Those who were so dumb as to also believe Saddam had WMDs would also prove their intelligence by posting insults. Less responsible companies such as APC and Monster Cable sell those scam plug-in protectors approved by salt@dog. Companies who must make equipment so that a house does not burn down provide 'whole house' protectors. Responsible companies such as Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Keison, Square D, Siemens, and GE. OK, now we have Tom's list of the "responsible" companies who know all about surge protection. Funny thing though, most of these responsible companies on the list actually sell plug in surge protectors as part of their product lines. Intermatic sells plug-ins: http://www.intermatic.com/Default.as...4&cid=46&did=6 snip So does Leviton: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...minisite=10028 snip So does GE: http://www.jascoproducts.com/product...?idCategory=33 snip Here's what Siemens has to say about plug-ins: http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Products...anguagecode=en snip That should take care of that specious argument as well as showing how in touch with these companies product lines you really are. Nice list. You can add Cuttler Hammer - they make plug-in suppressors. And looking at another favorite of w_ - SquareD *service panel* suppressors: For the 'best' suppressor - SDSB1175C - The literature says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use." - The connected equipment warranty $ is double when the suppressors "is used in conjunction with ... a point of use surge protective device." For the next best suppressor - QO2175SB and HOM2175SB - The connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video equipment, televisions, and computers." Alas - all but one of w_'s "responsible companies" are actually irresponsible and "hype myths". And what a surprise, w_ had no real response. I wonder why? I'm sure you know even less about WMDs. On the contrary, w_ was chief advisor to W on Wmds. Note the corresponding lack of support for w_’s claim that plug-in suppressors do NOT work. Good news w_ - religious fanatics can be cured!!! Look in the yellow pages for "deprogrammers". -- bud-- |
#37
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Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?
Unlike salty@dog, I don't post about things I know nothing about.
Science reality is not provided by posting insults. Old dogs cannot be taught new tricks. And properly earthed 'whole house' protectors such as the Intermatic can provide more that sufficient surge protection. The protector is only as effective as its earth ground. On Apr 24, 6:19*am, wrote: W_Tom only participates in threads about surge protectors. He scans all news groups looking for just those threads. If you want to engage him in an argument, just bear in mind that you are giving him a sexual thrill and he is masturbating while typing his nutty replies. |
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