On Apr 22, 5:49*pm, w_tom wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:14 pm, wrote:

I know one thing. *If a surge does make it to the outlet, I'd rather
have it next encounter the MOVs inside the $20 surge protector,
instead of the ones in the $2000 TV.- Hide quoted text -

* Review Page 42 Figure 8. *A surge arrives on black (hot) wire. *Plug-
in protector shunts that surge onto white (neutral) and green (safety
ground) wires. *Now that surge has three paths to find earth ground,
8000 volts destructively, through that TV. *Bud's citation that shows
what a plug-in protector might do ALSO shows how that same ineffective
protector can contribute to appliance damage.

* w_tom has addressed this apartment problem repeatedly. A kludge.
Cut the protector power cord as short as possible. *Plug it into a
receptacle attached to the breaker box. *This locates the protector as
far as possible from appliances and close to earth ground. *No, this
is not very good protection. *But it is an improvement over the worst
installation; a protector adjacent to the appliance.


Are you for real? Cut the cord short and plug it into a receptacle
attached to the breaker box? What receptacle attached to what
breaker box? Geez, I've lived in many apartments and the only
outlets attached to the breaker box were the ones in the wall, which
is where everyone, including the IEEE would place the protector. And
like cutting the cord from 3 ft to what 1 ft is going to make a
significant difference? LOL




* Meanwhile, apartments in steel and concrete buildings already have
best earthing. *Breaker box is bonded to steel. *Only needed is a
'whole house' protector - effective earthing already exists.

* w_tom learned this stuff decades ago in this example. *A house
without a 'whole house' protector had networked computers; two
computers on plug-in protectors. *

Hmmm, couldn't be too many decades ago that a typical house had
networked computers...



All computers powered off. Plug-in
protectors created the damage as demonstrated three paragraphs up.
Black wire surge was shunted (connected) to the green wire. *Plug-in
protector bypassed protection in both computers - put surges into each
computer's motherboard and network card. *Surge found earth ground via
the network, a third computer and its modem. *Without plug-in
protectors, the surge would not have been shunted (diverted, clamped,
bonded) into motherboard - would not have bypassed protection already
inside those computers. *

How does an external surge protector "bypass" the internal
protection? And how exactly is it that the same components inside a
computer are going to deal with the surge any differently?
Internally, the MOV's have the exact same deployment choices ie hot to
neutral, hot to ground, etc that they do in an external surge
protector. Unless you're gonna tell us that the TV comes with an
earth ground inside it.



Better protection would have been no plug-in
protector. *Or connecting protector to a receptacle at the breaker box
- as far as possible from computers to be closer to earth ground.

* Using a plug-in protector without a properly earthed 'whole hosue'
protector can result in adjacent appliance damage - as demonstrated by
Bud in his citation Page 42 Figure 8. *Plug-in protector can only
supplement - cannot replace missing earth ground protection. *Without
the 'whole house' protector, in so many examples, the plug-in
protector then created electronics damage.

Do you have any credible reference, or even any reference at all,
other than your own claims of surge protectors causing damage of this
type rather than helping prevent it? Funny the IEEE doesn't warn
about it.


* Only wild speculation says a plug-in protector is better than
nothing. *

No, only wild speculation says it's worse. Reference please.



A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from
typically destructive surges. *

Read the label and marking on the box it comes in.


Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all
surges are same. * Had the plug-in protectors not exists, then all
networked computers may not have been damaged.

Of course in your jaundiced view, anything that's bad that happens is
due to either plug-in surge protectors or human failure. If the cat
died, it would be due to the surge protector too. I've had exactly
the opposite experience, where electronics connected to plug-in surge
protectors came through a lightning storm OK, while one device NOT
using one was destroyed.


* *We earth surge protectors for a type of surge that typically causes
damage AND must be earthed. *No way around what must provide
protection even in apartments.

* trader, unlike a sales promoter Bud, I have actually done this. *We
designed some of this stuff (in custom installations), and learned
from mistakes. *One mistake - I foolishly thought a plug-in protector
was better than nothing. *Then lightning taught us some lessons. *No
way around what provides protection from the typically destructive
surge: earth ground. * *Even the manufacturer will not claim what Bud
is posting. *Above: plug-in protectors too close to the appliance even
made damage possible. *What kind of protection is that? *Ineffective
protection. *In multiple examples, *plug-in protector was worse than
nothing. *But good news: *it will protect from a surge that typically
does not create damage. *That means complete protection.


We do get a chuckle here listening to you rant about Bud and trying to
discredit him by claiming he sells plug-in surge protectors. How
long before you start accusing me too? Actually, I think you have,
in the past.