In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

On Feb 13, 8:07 am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Your plan is sound. Most ceiling drywall around US is installed
without adhesive. The head of the drywall screws will hold the drywall
and the threads will hold the screws into the joists. You will want to
space the screws 8-10 inches and while you're at it do the whole
ceiling, not just the sagging area. The reason its sagging in the
middle is the edges are held up by the vertical drywall pieces, so the
adhesive used is probably failing everywhere.

"Jeff B" wrote in message
...
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Yep sure have..First I need to know the thickness of the sagging
drywall...If it is 1/2 or 5/8 it MIGHT be savable...3/8 or 1/4 inch...SOL
I'm afraid...Sorry....

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:33:12 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 13, 8:07 am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Your plan is sound. Most ceiling drywall around US is installed
without adhesive. The head of the drywall screws will hold the drywall
and the threads will hold the screws into the joists. You will want to
space the screws 8-10 inches and while you're at it do the whole
ceiling, not just the sagging area. The reason its sagging in the
middle is the edges are held up by the vertical drywall pieces, so the
adhesive used is probably failing everywhere.



Lots of screws? Professionally we do only 3 screws in the field of each
sheet on each rafter, with 1 nail on each edge of the drywall sheet on each
rafter. Nails/Screws go in every 6 inches or so on the butt joints. If
the drywall is sagging that much you may also have a moisture problem. I
also suspect that the glue is holding, but the drywall gypsum is separating
from the paper backing. Glue is unacceptable on the ceiling except to keep
it from creaking, not to hold it up.

On Feb 13, 9:07*am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. *Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. *Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. *At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! *From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! *I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. *I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. * My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. *I now need to figure out step
2...repair. *Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. *My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. *Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. *I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. *It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). * I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. *With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

You can try to secure it to the studs with screws. If it's 3/8
sheetrock, it might be difficult since it's thin plus it will want to
pull away from the rafters. Another option is to laminate over the
ceiling with 3/8 sheetrock.

On Feb 13, 9:07*am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. *Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. *Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. *At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! *From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! *I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. *I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. * My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. *I now need to figure out step
2...repair. *Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. *My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. *Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. *I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. *It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). * I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. *With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Do you have some sort of false ceiling? How come this is only
noticeable from the top?

First off, check for water damage. That's often a culprit for sagging
sheetrock.

Second off, IF you can get it back into place, just screw it in.
Don't bother with any glue.

Finally, if it's sagging that much, check around. If it's sagging
that much, the slack had to come from somewhere.

Good luck with it.

On Feb 13, 9:07*am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. *Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. *Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. *At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! *From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! *I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. *I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. * My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. *I now need to figure out step
2...repair. *Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. *My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. *Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. *I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. *It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). * I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. *With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

This is 1/2" DW. There is no moisture problem and the adhesive
failed...not the paper. The backing is intact and the adhesive is
brittle and crumble-y. I found the same thing when I removed soffits
and installed small pieces of drywall in my kitchen as part of my
reno. This is a split foyer house so most of the living space is
upstairs. With attics getting to 125F in the summer (even with a
gable fan), its no wonder that after 30 years, it just lost its
strength.

And as far as warning signs from below, I have to admit that there
were some I didn't pay attention to. I thought fresh nail pops were
due to vibration from wood floor installation in the kitchen plus me
moving around the attic doing electrical work over the kitchen. I
kept saying to myself "Its minor and I'll spackle it later". I now
see hairline cracks in the crown molding along the wall and tape seams
showing where they didn't before as it began to sag. In hindsight, it
was getting worse by the day! I think I had somewhere between 2
seconds and 2 weeks before it collapsed under it own weight. It was
sheer luck that I noticed it while doing some recessed lighting work
in the attic outside the kitchen area. Lucky me and a big lesson
learned.

"Jeff B" wrote in message
...
On Feb 13, 9:07 am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

This is 1/2" DW. There is no moisture problem and the adhesive
failed...not the paper. The backing is intact and the adhesive is
brittle and crumble-y. I found the same thing when I removed soffits
and installed small pieces of drywall in my kitchen as part of my
reno. This is a split foyer house so most of the living space is
upstairs. With attics getting to 125F in the summer (even with a
gable fan), its no wonder that after 30 years, it just lost its
strength.

And as far as warning signs from below, I have to admit that there
were some I didn't pay attention to. I thought fresh nail pops were
due to vibration from wood floor installation in the kitchen plus me
moving around the attic doing electrical work over the kitchen. I
kept saying to myself "Its minor and I'll spackle it later". I now
see hairline cracks in the crown molding along the wall and tape seams
showing where they didn't before as it began to sag. In hindsight, it
was getting worse by the day! I think I had somewhere between 2
seconds and 2 weeks before it collapsed under it own weight. It was
sheer luck that I noticed it while doing some recessed lighting work
in the attic outside the kitchen area. Lucky me and a big lesson
learned.

1/2 inch might be doable..Start in a corner and work it back up using 2X4's
like you are for bracing and screw it every 3 or 4 inches with a DRYWALL
SCREWGUN using 1" 5/8 drywall screws and make sure the screws aren't set to
deep. Take down bracing out in front of you as you move out to prevent
buckling of the sheetrock.Leave bracing in place for a day or so where the
worst of the sag was.... This might or might not work.It depends on how long
it has sagged. If it's been to long you can never seem to get the curve out
of it even if you get it back up... Worth a try...Good luck....

On Feb 13, 9:07 am, Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

You are in a tough situation. You have several factors adding up to a
practical impossibility.

Newer drywall panels intended for ceiling use are more sag resistant -
the stuff made 30 years ago is more prone to sagging without any
additional load being placed upon it.

You do have a load - that 18" of blown insulation can easily exceed
the sag resistant drywall rating of 1.3 PSF. Blown insulation can
vary a great deal, but 1 to 2 PCF is not unusual. The conversion does
not work in your favor.

USG specifies ceiling screws to be on 12" centers, and that's with the
newer sag resistant stuff. The older spec was screws on 8" centers.
Again, that's based on a 1.3 PSF maximum surplus loading.

The insulation that has worked its way between the drywall and the
ceiling framing isn't going anywhere without help. Buildings,
particularly wood framed buildings, move with changes in temperature
and humidity and with loads applied from above, such as your crawling
around in the attic. If you screw the panel back up as best you can
and there's a gap, more insulation will squeeze its way into the gap
as the building moves. This will be slow to happen, but it will
happen and it will create a fair amount of force and the screw heads
will start to pull through the face paper.

I see zero chance of a long term solution if you don't remove the
insulation from the area in which you are working. You could start at
one end, push the loose insulation to the far end, vacuum out the
crevice under the joist, and then jack up that area and screw the
board up tight. Then you'd have to move the insulation back into the
area you worked and start on the adjacent section.

In your situation you will definitely want the screws more closely
spaced - say 8" centers. Adhesive or expanding foam would help seal
the drywall/joist gap and keep more insulation from working its way
between the two. I would also consider filling the joist bay with
loose fill insulation, then stapling Tyvek on top of the joists so
it's fairly taught, then putting the rest of the loose insulation on
top of the Tyvek. That would be one way, off the top of my head, of
keeping the insulation and taking some of the load off of the drywall
ceiling.

Another option - and it's really easy for me to spend your money for
you - is to remove all of the loose fill insulation and use spray foam
over the entire drywall ceiling. If you put six or more inches in
place in place it would bond to the back of the drywall ceiling and to
the joists and make the whole system more of a diaphragm/beam.

Basically, this is the situation: rock you hard place. Sorry.

R

On Feb 13, 1:48*pm, "benick" wrote:
1/2 inch might be doable..Start in a corner

Corner??? I'm thinking starting in the middle and working my way to
the outsides. Altho if its jacked up with 2x4s, where I start/finish
may not matter.

--Jeff

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:48:16 -0800 (PST), Jeff B wrote:

On Feb 13, 1:48*pm, "benick" wrote:
1/2 inch might be doable..Start in a corner

Corner??? I'm thinking starting in the middle and working my way to
the outsides. Altho if its jacked up with 2x4s, where I start/finish
may not matter.

--Jeff


Not good. Start at the outside edge of each drywall sheet and work toward
the middle. 1 5/8" screws are overkill, but might be needed to grab the
rafter. Start along a wall parallel to a rafter and run the entire length
of a rafter. Move on to the next rafter and keep moving from one side of
the room to the other. If the screws pop through you may need to slowly
work each screw up a little at a time to keep them from popping through. Go
slowly to keep from popping the screw heads.

The dimple bits work well in a drill for as much as you are doing. If you
know someone with a real screwgun that is better, but don't overdrive the
screws. They need to be just below the surface of the drywall.

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:48:16 -0800 (PST), Jeff B wrote:

On Feb 13, 1:48 pm, "benick" wrote:
1/2 inch might be doable..Start in a corner

Corner??? I'm thinking starting in the middle and working my way to
the outsides. Altho if its jacked up with 2x4s, where I start/finish
may not matter.

--Jeff


Not good. Start at the outside edge of each drywall sheet and work toward
the middle. 1 5/8" screws are overkill, but might be needed to grab the
rafter. Start along a wall parallel to a rafter and run the entire length
of a rafter. Move on to the next rafter and keep moving from one side of
the room to the other. If the screws pop through you may need to slowly
work each screw up a little at a time to keep them from popping through.
Go
slowly to keep from popping the screw heads.

The dimple bits work well in a drill for as much as you are doing. If you
know someone with a real screwgun that is better, but don't overdrive the
screws. They need to be just below the surface of the drywall.

!"1/4 screws are normal for 1/2 inch drywall and I was allowing a little
more for the old glue that might hold it away from the rafter a bit and to
give a little extra to draw the sheet up. The clutch in a real screwgun
makes it ALOT easier. Always could rent one or borrow one.

Jeff, if you start in the middle you are asking for trouble but it's your
baby....LOL...

In article ,
(Mike Dobony) says...

Lots of screws? Professionally we do only 3 screws in the field of each
sheet on each rafter, with 1 nail on each edge of the drywall sheet on each
rafter. Nails/Screws go in every 6 inches or so on the butt joints.

12" O/C in the field is OK for screws, but not for nails. If you are
using nails, you have to go 7" O/C.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

On Feb 13, 12:07 pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:07 am, Jeff B wrote:



In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

You are in a tough situation. You have several factors adding up to a
practical impossibility.

Newer drywall panels intended for ceiling use are more sag resistant -
the stuff made 30 years ago is more prone to sagging without any
additional load being placed upon it.

You do have a load - that 18" of blown insulation can easily exceed
the sag resistant drywall rating of 1.3 PSF. Blown insulation can
vary a great deal, but 1 to 2 PCF is not unusual. The conversion does
not work in your favor.

USG specifies ceiling screws to be on 12" centers, and that's with the
newer sag resistant stuff. The older spec was screws on 8" centers.
Again, that's based on a 1.3 PSF maximum surplus loading.

The insulation that has worked its way between the drywall and the
ceiling framing isn't going anywhere without help. Buildings,
particularly wood framed buildings, move with changes in temperature
and humidity and with loads applied from above, such as your crawling
around in the attic. If you screw the panel back up as best you can
and there's a gap, more insulation will squeeze its way into the gap
as the building moves. This will be slow to happen, but it will
happen and it will create a fair amount of force and the screw heads
will start to pull through the face paper.

I see zero chance of a long term solution if you don't remove the
insulation from the area in which you are working. You could start at
one end, push the loose insulation to the far end, vacuum out the
crevice under the joist, and then jack up that area and screw the
board up tight. Then you'd have to move the insulation back into the
area you worked and start on the adjacent section.

In your situation you will definitely want the screws more closely
spaced - say 8" centers. Adhesive or expanding foam would help seal
the drywall/joist gap and keep more insulation from working its way
between the two. I would also consider filling the joist bay with
loose fill insulation, then stapling Tyvek on top of the joists so
it's fairly taught, then putting the rest of the loose insulation on
top of the Tyvek. That would be one way, off the top of my head, of
keeping the insulation and taking some of the load off of the drywall
ceiling.

Another option - and it's really easy for me to spend your money for
you - is to remove all of the loose fill insulation and use spray foam
over the entire drywall ceiling. If you put six or more inches in
place in place it would bond to the back of the drywall ceiling and to
the joists and make the whole system more of a diaphragm/beam.

Basically, this is the situation: rock you hard place. Sorry.

R

Jeff-

Per Rico's comments.......getting the drywall snug back up against
with joists with that isulation is going to be very difficult (read:
nearly impossible).

If you really want the ceiling to be flat you've got to get that
insulation out of the way....even a few stray clumps, chunks, bit will
locally prevent the drywall from seating properly & as you drive
screws (or ideally as you gently jack it into place) the insulation
will compress & the drywall will bulge or crack.

Vacuuming all out is doable & you can save it in large trash bags
which you could hang from the roof rafters (if you have enough room)

Ideally getting all of the insulation off the drywall is the way to go
but if the material handling logistics is too difficult maybe doing
1/2 of the room at a time could work.

Are you going to try & save the joint work?

If so, ideally you need to jack the ceiling up evenly over the entire
area, You fashion a could several "strong back frames" to distribute
the jacking force to the ceiling. Something like the lift points of
a drywall lift. This would minimize the number of jacks you
needed.....the load per sheet isn't huge but each sheets needs several
jacking points. But this would be a lot of work.

Your situation is difficult because of the loose fill insulation & the
fact the entire ceiling has sagged.

Jacking up the entire ceiling (or even "strips) is a lot of work but
incrementally screwing screws in sounds tedious.

Jeff... I think MIke D's comments about starting from the edge &
working a "strip" of drywall along a rafter makes sense. I believe
his concept is to use the screws to slowly draw the drywall back up
against the joists and avoid the jacking setup entirely. If his
concept works it would be much less effort than jacking the entire
ceiling.


If you try to use screws only (no jacking) space them relatively far
apart so you have fewer jacking screws to incrementally screw.

When the sheet or ceiling is completely flat, go back a drive
intermediate screws home in one shot.

In my town per code, 1/2 drywall ceilings get 1 5/8" screws at 6" o/
c.
Which seem rather long and rather close together.
What ever spacing you choose, consider making the jacking screw
pattern an even multiple of the final screw spacing and an even
divisor of the sheet size.

If you had a helper or two you could do the work with a lot less "up &
down the ladder".

Or, if you're up to it....drywall stilts

let us know how it all works out

cheers
Bob

Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Regarding dry wall / wall board screws, for sagging ceiling wall board, I
a vague memory (hey, at my advanced age all I have are vague memories)
of a thin wide diameter vinyl / nylon "washer" that slips over the shaft
of a dry wall screw
and gets driven against the wallboard, spreading out the "force", if you
will,
of the screw head against thin wallboard.

Obviously, you have to look at a thick "kock down" type texture to cover
the "washer".

But that might be a way of avoiding screw heads "pulling through" the
wallboard and going in too deep, leaving the OP with no effective holding
power on the possibly too thin and sagged ceiling.

I *think* I saw this on some TOH show, with the Tom guy usig it as a repair
aid on a plaster ceiling, but it should work on wallboard, too.

On Feb 14, 9:18 pm, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Regarding dry wall / wall board screws, for sagging ceiling wall board, I
a vague memory (hey, at my advanced age all I have are vague memories)
of a thin wide diameter vinyl / nylon "washer" that slips over the shaft
of a dry wall screw
and gets driven against the wallboard, spreading out the "force", if you
will,
of the screw head against thin wallboard.

Obviously, you have to look at a thick "kock down" type texture to cover
the "washer".

But that might be a way of avoiding screw heads "pulling through" the
wallboard and going in too deep, leaving the OP with no effective holding
power on the possibly too thin and sagged ceiling.

I *think* I saw this on some TOH show, with the Tom guy usig it as a repair
aid on a plaster ceiling, but it should work on wallboard, too.

Good suggestion. http://www.kilianhardware.com/ceilbutplasw.html

R

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:51:48 -0800 (PST), RicodJour wrote:

On Feb 14, 9:18 pm, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
Jeff B wrote:
In the middle of my kitchen reno and while working in my attic, I
discovered that 1 or 2 full sheets of drywall in my living room are
sagging badly. Apparently the construction adhesive used 30 yrs ago
simply dried up and lost its hold. Since they used nails not screws
in the 1970s to attach the drywall to the rafters, there wasn't much
to keep it up. At the lowest spot, the gap between the drywall and
rafter was about 3/4"!! From inside the attic, I could slide 1/2 my
hand into the gap! I figured the whole thing would collapse from its
own weight any minute. I raced to HD and propped it up with a bunch
of 2x4s. My living room looks like a circus tent.

Getting it supported was step 1. I now need to figure out step
2...repair. Replacing all of that ceiling drywall is NOT the
preferred option. My attic has about 18" of loose, powdery, blown-in
insulation. Moving that stuff around is a nasty job. I don't believe
the drywall is cracked anywhere. It simply sagged as a full sheet (or
2 sheets). I'm hoping that getting it flush to the rafters with the
2x4s and then using LOTS of drywall screws will keep it up there for
another 20 years. With the loose insulation, getting adhesive in the
gap before screwing up will be difficult if not impossible.

Anyone have experience dealing with this problem?

--Jeff

Regarding dry wall / wall board screws, for sagging ceiling wall board, I
a vague memory (hey, at my advanced age all I have are vague memories)
of a thin wide diameter vinyl / nylon "washer" that slips over the shaft
of a dry wall screw
and gets driven against the wallboard, spreading out the "force", if you
will,
of the screw head against thin wallboard.

Obviously, you have to look at a thick "kock down" type texture to cover
the "washer".

But that might be a way of avoiding screw heads "pulling through" the
wallboard and going in too deep, leaving the OP with no effective holding
power on the possibly too thin and sagged ceiling.

I *think* I saw this on some TOH show, with the Tom guy usig it as a repair
aid on a plaster ceiling, but it should work on wallboard, too.

Good suggestion. http://www.kilianhardware.com/ceilbutplasw.html

R

I would not use this on standard drywall as it will require a very thick
coating of mud as a skim coat. You would need to use the green board for
this. If concerned about nail pops, then do 5 screws in the field and make
sure you use either the dimpling bit
http://www.renovationadvice.com/tools/drywall_tools.htm or a real screw gun
with a positive depth setting clutch, not the drill torque clutch.

On Feb 15, 9:30 am, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:51:48 -0800 (PST), RicodJour wrote:

Good suggestion. http://www.kilianhardware.com/ceilbutplasw.html

I would not use this on standard drywall as it will require a very thick
coating of mud as a skim coat. You would need to use the green board for
this. If concerned about nail pops, then do 5 screws in the field and make
sure you use either the dimpling bithttp://www.renovationadvice.com/tools/drywall_tools.htmor a real screw gun
with a positive depth setting clutch, not the drill torque clutch.

There is no need for a very thick coat of mud (there is just as much
mud in any given corner or on tapered edges in a standard
installation), there is no need to use green board (green board and
not blue board?), and the ceiling buttons distribute the stress far
better than any single screw head. It's not a question of the screw
threads holding in the wood, it's a question of the head pulling
through the face paper. Spacing the screws 8" apart instead of 12"
doesn't address the screw pulling through the face paper. If you
don't want to cover the buttons with mud, then use a small scrap piece
of plywood or stiff plastic to act as a button while you screw the
drywall in place then remove the scraps and finish off with standard
screws.

In either event, the loose fill insulation is a problem. Using screws
to compress the insulation that is already between the drywall and the
joists and pull the drywall up tight is not a viable solution. You
will be able to reattach the drywall using just screws, but it will
not be tight to the framing. Having drywall that is not tight to the
framing is a sure way to insure that you repair your repair down the
road for reasons I mentioned before.

R

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I've been trying to figure out my
battle plan while I stare at a bunch of 2x4 support poles in my living
room. Repair will be this weekend's project. I'll be checking up in
the attic to see how much (hopefully none!) of the insulation worked
its way under the rafters.

I'll report back early next week.

--Jeff

The repair of my sagging ceiling went well over the weekend. There
were 2 connected 4x8 sheets that were the problem. And to make
matters more complicated, one of them was over a stairwell. Luckily
there was NO insulation under the rafters/joists since the original
builder stapled vapor paper (almost like thin package wrapping paper)
to the joist channels. This kept the insulation between the joists.

In addition to the 5 or 6 2x4s keeping it supported all week, it
became obvious that trick was to put more poles down a joist line
every 12" or so with 1 or 2 on each side at the next joist. I had
enough wood for about 3 or 4 in a row. Starting at one end, I wedged
the drywall up, put in 1 or 2 screws every 8-12", them moved the back
pole around to the front of the row. Put in another screw or 2,
repeat. This REALLY turned into a challenge over the stairwell since
every pole had to be a different size. The largest one was about
14'.

It took awhile but everything seems to be holding. I'll wait abit to
spakle so I can watch the bare screwheads for signs of sagging.

Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. If it holds for another
20 yrs, I'll be very happy. The lesson learned for me is not to
ignore possible warning signs. The job wouldn't have been so
complicated if I fixed it when the sagging first started.

--Jeff

On Feb 18, 12:31 pm, Jeff B wrote:
The repair of my sagging ceiling went well over the weekend. There
were 2 connected 4x8 sheets that were the problem. And to make
matters more complicated, one of them was over a stairwell. Luckily
there was NO insulation under the rafters/joists since the original
builder stapled vapor paper (almost like thin package wrapping paper)
to the joist channels. This kept the insulation between the joists.

In addition to the 5 or 6 2x4s keeping it supported all week, it
became obvious that trick was to put more poles down a joist line
every 12" or so with 1 or 2 on each side at the next joist. I had
enough wood for about 3 or 4 in a row. Starting at one end, I wedged
the drywall up, put in 1 or 2 screws every 8-12", them moved the back
pole around to the front of the row. Put in another screw or 2,
repeat. This REALLY turned into a challenge over the stairwell since
every pole had to be a different size. The largest one was about
14'.

It took awhile but everything seems to be holding. I'll wait abit to
spakle so I can watch the bare screwheads for signs of sagging.

Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. If it holds for another
20 yrs, I'll be very happy. The lesson learned for me is not to
ignore possible warning signs. The job wouldn't have been so
complicated if I fixed it when the sagging first started.

I think you owe that insulation contractor a six pack for 'hanging'
the blown insulation with the vapor barrier! That was my main concern
- that you wouldn't be able to get the drywall up tight to the joists
with the insulation in the way. You lucked out. I'm sure it will be
fine and won't cause you any problems from here.

R