TROLLS

"Twayne" wrote in message
news:LQspj.6123$M71.2783@trnddc08...
TROLLS

It was humor, not a troll. There is a difference. Really.

On Feb 3, 6:17*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 3, 1:34*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
You probably think if someone is sitting in the bathtub
and drops an electric hair dry, plugged in and working,
into the water that they will be electrocuted... *and
who knows how many other myths!

You mean like this?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...1239F933A05753....

2 Electrocuted in Bathtub
UPI
Published: October 30, 1984
An electric hair dryer fell into a bathtub while two children were
bathing tonight, electrocuting the 8-year- old girl and her 6-year-old
brother, the authorities said.

The children, Sandra and Shawn Austin, were pronounced dead at Fort
Worth hospitals, the police said. Officers said the children were
found by an older sister when she went to check on them. The sister
told the police she had placed the hair dryer on a shelf or on a sink
in the bathroom, but officers did not know how it was knocked or fell
into the tub. "

Idiot

Appropriately signed, Idiot.

But when you have to go back a quarter of a century to
find an example where that is claimed, maybe the claim
isn't so good.

Or maybe every accidental electrocution in a pool or bathtub doesn't
make it to the major newspapers where it can be found by popping up on
a quick search.

Here;s a novel thought. Why don't you cite a reference that says the
practice shown in the pool pic is one that is safe? Or that a hair
dryer falling into a bathtub isn't anything to worry about because it
can't harm you.



Regardless, two children... *who don't know enough to
just pick it up and throw it out. *Or to just step out,
and probably aren't big enough to do that without
grabbing onto something... *like the water spigot (which
in fact will get you electrocuted).

Hmmm, now how is that? You spent the last 5 posts going back and
forth with Clark, trying to make the case that water has too high a
resistance for enough current to be conducted to ever harm anyone
standing in it. Yet, now, you attribute the two girls deaths in
exactly the situation you say can't happen, to grabbing onto a water
spigot. Well, unless you're gonna now argue the water spigot was
energized, there goes your whole BS argument.

And what you just stated above clearly shows you;re an idiot. No one
in their right mind that is familiar with electricity would ever
advocate that someone sitting in a bathtub should PICK UP THE HAIR
DRYER THAT JUST FELL IN and remove it.





But the average adult who has that experience survives
without even getting a tingle from it.

The average adult survives many unsafe and potentially deadly things,
including car wrecks and gun shots. The average adult will survive
two pulls of the trigger at Russian roulette. That doesn't make
those things safe. That argument is specious.

wrote:
Here;s a novel thought. Why don't you cite a reference that says the
practice shown in the pool pic is one that is safe? Or that a hair
dryer falling into a bathtub isn't anything to worry about because it
can't harm you.

I've not said that.

You need to learn to read.

The pool pic is not something that is "safe". It's just
something that is not necessarily going to kill you.
Same with the hair dryer falling into the bathtub. Both
situations, with the wrong circumstances, *can* *kill*
*you*.

The myth is the idea that either one is *necessarily*
going to kill you.

With the right circumstances, nobody gets electrocuted.
And that is what happens quite often.

If you watch the movies you'd think that tossing a radio
or hair dryer into the bathtub with someone is
necessarily going to result in their death. In fact it
just about as likely to not hurt them at all, and
thoroughly convince them that they should hurt
*you*. ;-)

Regardless, two children... *who don't know enough to
just pick it up and throw it out. *Or to just step out,
and probably aren't big enough to do that without
grabbing onto something... *like the water spigot (which
in fact will get you electrocuted).

Hmmm, now how is that? You spent the last 5 posts going back and
forth with Clark, trying to make the case that water has too high a
resistance for enough current to be conducted to ever harm anyone
standing in it.

You do understand the difference between being 5-10 feet
away from a grounded point in fresh water, and being 6
inches from the source of electricity in soapy water,
eh?

It's a huge difference, and one of life or death.

Yet, now, you attribute the two girls deaths in
exactly the situation you say can't happen, to grabbing onto a water
spigot.

That can't happen in a pool where there is no water
spigot.

Generally bathtubs all have at least a water spigot and
a drain, both of which are grounded. Many have other
grounded fixtures too. Some (mine) have *none*, but
that is rare.

Well, unless you're gonna now argue the water spigot was
energized, there goes your whole BS argument.

Grounded.

And what you just stated above clearly shows you;re an idiot.

Ahem, you are the one who signs as an Idiot, and makes
idiotic statements out of ignorance and apparently were
educated by what you've seen in the movies...

No one
in their right mind that is familiar with electricity would ever
advocate that someone sitting in a bathtub should PICK UP THE HAIR
DRYER THAT JUST FELL IN and remove it.

That's not true. Grabbing the cord, at the most distant
point, and flinging it out, would probably be safe enough.

If the water is dirty, don't do it though. On the other
hand if the water was just run and has no soap...

But the average adult who has that experience survives
without even getting a tingle from it.

The average adult survives many unsafe and potentially deadly things,

So you admit that it is not necessarily going to
electrocute someone just because the hair dryer falls
into the tub.

That *is* the point.

including car wrecks and gun shots. The average adult will survive
two pulls of the trigger at Russian roulette. That doesn't make
those things safe. That argument is specious.

You didn't sign this article?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Feb 4, 12:49*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
wrote:
Here;s a novel thought. * Why don't you cite a reference that says the
practice shown in the pool pic is one that is safe? * Or that a hair
dryer falling into a bathtub isn't anything to worry about because it
can't harm you.

I've not said that.

You need to learn to read.


I can read. Referring to the picture of the pool that was posted, you
said:

"Not a problem. (Actually, I've set up something fairly
similar to that, and been in the water.) "





The pool pic is not something that is "safe". *It's just
something that is not necessarily going to kill you.
Same with the hair dryer falling into the bathtub. *Both
situations, with the wrong circumstances, *can* *kill*
*you*.

Interesting we're hearing this from you for the first time.



The myth is the idea that either one is *necessarily*
going to kill you.

No one here ever claimed any such thing in the entire thread, as far
as I can tell.



With the right circumstances, nobody gets electrocuted.
And that is what happens quite often.

With the right circumstances, you don't get killed playing Russian
roulette, either.


If you watch the movies you'd think that tossing a radio
or hair dryer into the bathtub with someone is
necessarily going to result in their death. *In fact it
just about as likely to not hurt them at all, and
thoroughly convince them that they should hurt
*you*. ;-)

So, 50% probability of something hurting you or not hurting you is
your threshold for safety. That makes a lot of sense.




Regardless, two children... *who don't know enough to
just pick it up and throw it out. *Or to just step out,
and probably aren't big enough to do that without
grabbing onto something... *like the water spigot (which
in fact will get you electrocuted).

Hmmm, now how is that? * You spent the last 5 posts going back and
forth with Clark, trying to make the case that water has too high a
resistance for enough current to be conducted to ever harm anyone
standing in it.

You do understand the difference between being 5-10 feet
away from a grounded point in fresh water, and being 6
inches from the source of electricity in soapy water,
eh?

It's a huge difference, and one of life or death.


You dismissed the bathtub electrocution story from the NY TImes as
irrelevant because it was from 25 years ago. Then you advised that
the kids should have just picked up the dryer. And now you want to
talk about distances? Hello?



Yet, now, you attribute the two girls deaths in
exactly the situation you say can't happen, to grabbing onto a water
spigot.

That can't happen in a pool where there is no water
spigot.

It can happen when someone steps in the pool, with one foot in and one
foot out. In can happen when someone reaches for something outside
the pool that is metal and grounded. It could be the liner has a
small leak, right near where you're standing while grilling on that
stupid setup. Clark and I pointed this out 10 posts ago. Pay
attention.



Generally bathtubs all have at least a water spigot and
a drain, both of which are grounded. *Many have other
grounded fixtures too. *Some (mine) have *none*, but
that is rare.

It figures a kook like you would have some strange bathtub with no
spigot or drain.



Well, unless you're gonna now argue the water spigot was
energized, there goes your whole BS argument.

Grounded.

Did you figure that out all by yourself too?



And what you just stated above clearly shows you;re an idiot.

Ahem, you are the one who signs as an Idiot, and makes
idiotic statements out of ignorance and apparently were
educated by what you've seen in the movies...


This is what you just posted:

" Regardless, two children... who don't know enough to
just pick it up and throw it out."

And "It", for those that have just joined us, is an electric hair
dryer that fell into the tub the girls were in. So your recommending
that someone sitting in a bathtub where a hair dryer has fallen in,
should pick it up and throw it out as the safe move. I'll let others
judge who's the idiot here.



No one
in their right mind that is familiar with electricity would ever
advocate that someone sitting in a bathtub should PICK UP THE HAIR
DRYER THAT JUST FELL IN and remove it.

That's not true. *Grabbing the cord, at the most distant
point, and flinging it out, would probably be safe enough.

But that isn't what you said is it? You said "pick it up".



If the water is dirty, don't do it though. *On the other
hand if the water was just run and has no soap...

I didn't see any qualifier in your blanket statement. Do you now
expect 8 year old girls to run test on the composition of the water?
Idiot.



But the average adult who has that experience survives
without even getting a tingle from it.

The average adult survives many unsafe and potentially deadly things,

So you admit that it is not necessarily going to
electrocute someone just because the hair dryer falls
into the tub.

No one in this entire thread, certainly not me, ever said
electrocution is 100% certain. But I did say:

1 - What was shown in that pic was likely staged. And in no way
should it be considered safe or OK.

2 - If a hair dryer falls into a bathtub, it CAN kill you.

3 - Only an idiot would say 8 year old girls sitting in a bathtub in
which a hair dryer has just fallen in should just "pick it up and
throw it out"

wrote:
On Feb 4, 12:49*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
You need to learn to read.

I can read. Referring to the picture of the pool that was posted, you
said:

You can't read, and once again you have proved it. For
starters, the below does not claim it is absolutely safe
from all danger, which is what you claimed I said. I
didn't.

And from this point it just gets worse for you...

"Not a problem. (Actually, I've set up something fairly
similar to that, and been in the water.) "

[snipped about 60 lines of nothing but emotional hype]


When we get down to dealing with *facts*, you blow it every time.

Yet, now, you attribute the two girls deaths in
exactly the situation you say can't happen, to grabbing onto a water
spigot.

That can't happen in a pool where there is no water
spigot.

It can happen when someone steps in the pool, with one foot in and one
foot out.

In a plastic pool, setting on a plastic ground cover,
which is on a bricked surface that no doubt has several
feet of compacted and well drained sand or gravel below
it? Do you know what "insulator" spells???

Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

In can happen when someone reaches for something outside
the pool that is metal and grounded.

And a very cursory inspection of the set of photos we are
discussing demonstrated that there isn't a grounded piece of
metal within maybe 50 feet of anyone in that pool.

It could be the liner has a
small leak,

Do you really think that "a small leak" is a good conductor???

Or that the ground under it is?

right near where you're standing while grilling on that
stupid setup. Clark and I pointed this out 10 posts ago. Pay
attention.

The trouble you can Clark have is that neither of you
have a clue what to pay attention to. Citing marvelous
myths that you've picked up from watching TV and movies
won't get it.

Generally bathtubs all have at least a water spigot and
a drain, both of which are grounded. *Many have other
grounded fixtures too. *Some (mine) have *none*, but
that is rare.

It figures a kook like you would have some strange bathtub with no
spigot or drain.

See what I mean about learning to read. There are *no*
grounded fixtures in my bathroom. There are no metal
pipes to conduct electricity.

Well, unless you're gonna now argue the water spigot was
energized, there goes your whole BS argument.

Grounded.

Did you figure that out all by yourself too?

The problem is that you said "energized", wich isn't right.
I said "grounded", which is. And you don't understand the
difference.

You're pretty hot on emotional hype, and totally lacking
when it comes to technical expertize.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Feb 4, 8:20*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

In a plastic pool, setting on a plastic ground cover,
which is on a bricked surface that no doubt has several
feet of compacted and well drained sand or gravel below
it? *Do you know what "insulator" spells???


Now, you're making things up. It was never specified what was outside
the pool when you proclaimed the settup OK. But once again you show
your igorance. Only a fool would think that a brick surface on a
sand base around a pool is an insulator. Are you aware that plenty
of people have been electrocuted standing on damp concrete, in damp
shoes? And I suppose the pool area is gonna be bone dry? Idiot!




Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

In can happen when someone reaches for something outside
the pool that is metal and grounded.

And a very cursory inspection of the set of photos we are
discussing demonstrated that there isn't a grounded piece of
metal within maybe 50 feet of anyone in that pool.

How the hell so you know what's sitting just outside the pool?
Anyone dumb enough to do what is shown is dumb enough to have a metal
tray table sitting outside the pool, where you can't see it in the
photo. Yet, you went ahead and proclaimed this settup as OK.


It could be the liner has a
small leak,

Do you really think that "a small leak" is a good conductor???

Or that the ground under it is?

Now you're arguing that wet earth from a pool leak isn't a good
conductor too. What do you think it takes? Only an 8 ft ground rod
will provide sufficient current path to kill you? Idiot.


The trouble you can Clark have is that neither of you
have a clue what to pay attention to. *Citing marvelous
myths that you've picked up from watching TV and movies
won't get it.

Not a myth. I showed you a NY Times article, where two 8 year old
girls were electrocuted sitting in a bathtub, when a hair dryer fell
in. That was exactly the scenario you mocked as being a myth and not
being potentially lethal. Your response: They could have prevented
that by just picking up the hair dryer and tossing it out. Idiot.


Well, unless you're gonna now argue the water spigot was
energized, there goes your whole BS argument.

Grounded.

Did you figure that out all by yourself too?

The problem is that you said "energized", wich isn't right.
I said "grounded", which is. *And you don't understand the
difference.

No, now pay attention. You claimed that perhaps the girls were
killed because they grabbed a spigot. Now, according to you, water
in these situations is a great insulator. So, how then could touching
something grounded make any difference? That's why I mocked your
foolishness by asking if you were now gonna argue that the spigot was
energized, meaning that's where the hot was that killed them, not the
hairdryer.



You're pretty hot on emotional hype, and totally lacking
when it comes to technical expertize.

I'll let others judge who knows what they are talking about. Here's
some of your gems:

"You probably think if someone is sitting in the bathtub
and drops an electric hair dry, plugged in and working,
into the water that they will be electrocuted... and
who knows how many other myths! "

So, I showed you a NY Times story of two 8 year old girls that were
electrocuted in a bathtub after a hair dryer fell in and your
response:

"Regardless, two children... who don't know enough to
just pick it up and throw it out. Or to just step out,
and probably aren't big enough to do that without
grabbing onto something... like the water spigot (which
in fact will get you electrocuted)."

Or from the start of the thread, your comments on the picture of the
pool:

"Nothing looks "staged", or phoney for that matter. "

"Not a problem. (Actually, I've set up something fairly
similar to that, and been in the water.) "


Based on the above, everyone can judge who's the idiot giving out
false and misleading information. But, based on this and some of
your other threads, I think most of us already know.

wrote:
On Feb 4, 8:20*pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

In a plastic pool, setting on a plastic ground cover,
which is on a bricked surface that no doubt has several
feet of compacted and well drained sand or gravel below
it? *Do you know what "insulator" spells???

Now, you're making things up. It was never specified what was outside
the pool when you proclaimed the settup OK. But once again you show
your igorance.

Speaking of ignorance... look at the images of the pool we
are talking about.

Only a fool would think that a brick surface on a
sand base around a pool is an insulator. Are you aware that plenty
of people have been electrocuted standing on damp concrete, in damp
shoes? And I suppose the pool area is gonna be bone dry? Idiot!

You sign you name well, Idiot.

Look at the images of the pool we are talking about. "Damp concrete"
has nothing to do with it.

Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

Well?

And a very cursory inspection of the set of photos we are
discussing demonstrated that there isn't a grounded piece of
metal within maybe 50 feet of anyone in that pool.

How the hell so you know what's sitting just outside the pool?

They provided a whole pile of images, thats how.

Anyone dumb enough to do what is shown is dumb enough to have a metal
tray table sitting outside the pool, where you can't see it in the
photo. Yet, you went ahead and proclaimed this settup as OK.

There are pictures. There are no metal trays. Nothing that
is ground. Keep imagining, but please get a clue!

It could be the liner has a
small leak,

Do you really think that "a small leak" is a good conductor???

Or that the ground under it is?

Now you're arguing that wet earth from a pool leak isn't a good
conductor too. What do you think it takes? Only an 8 ft ground rod
will provide sufficient current path to kill you? Idiot.

Well, there actually are places where an 8 ftoo ground rod
*won't* do it. In most places an inch of water on the surface
spread over 10 feet *away* from you won't do it either.

You need to study that little excerise I outlined for Clark.

He liked the idea of "path of least resistance", but
didn't have any idea where it was. You don't seem to
know what it is.


"You probably think if someone is sitting in the bathtub
and drops an electric hair dry, plugged in and working,
into the water that they will be electrocuted... and
who knows how many other myths! "

They likely as not won't be.

It's a great stunt for how to murder someone in a movie.
In real life it doesn't work so well...

Or from the start of the thread, your comments on the picture of the
pool:

"Nothing looks "staged", or phoney for that matter. "

"Not a problem. (Actually, I've set up something fairly
similar to that, and been in the water.) "

Based on the above, everyone can judge who's the idiot giving out
false and misleading information. But, based on this and some of
your other threads, I think most of us already know.

That you haven't got much of a clue about electricity,
and don't have any idea what the mechanics of either the
pool or a bathtub are.

All you can do is jump up and down "It's electric,
you'll die!"

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

on 2/5/2008 2:48 PM Floyd L. Davidson said the following:
wrote:

On Feb 4, 8:20 pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

In a plastic pool, setting on a plastic ground cover,
which is on a bricked surface that no doubt has several
feet of compacted and well drained sand or gravel below
it? Do you know what "insulator" spells???

Now, you're making things up. It was never specified what was outside
the pool when you proclaimed the settup OK. But once again you show
your igorance.


Speaking of ignorance... look at the images of the pool we
are talking about.


Only a fool would think that a brick surface on a
sand base around a pool is an insulator. Are you aware that plenty
of people have been electrocuted standing on damp concrete, in damp
shoes? And I suppose the pool area is gonna be bone dry? Idiot!


You sign you name well, Idiot.

Look at the images of the pool we are talking about. "Damp concrete"
has nothing to do with it.


Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?




If not a better conductor with less resistance. Why does a submerged car
keep the lights on?

Well?


And a very cursory inspection of the set of photos we are
discussing demonstrated that there isn't a grounded piece of
metal within maybe 50 feet of anyone in that pool.

How the hell so you know what's sitting just outside the pool?


They provided a whole pile of images, thats how.


Anyone dumb enough to do what is shown is dumb enough to have a metal
tray table sitting outside the pool, where you can't see it in the
photo. Yet, you went ahead and proclaimed this settup as OK.


There are pictures. There are no metal trays. Nothing that
is ground. Keep imagining, but please get a clue!


It could be the liner has a
small leak,

Do you really think that "a small leak" is a good conductor???

Or that the ground under it is?

Now you're arguing that wet earth from a pool leak isn't a good
conductor too. What do you think it takes? Only an 8 ft ground rod
will provide sufficient current path to kill you? Idiot.


Well, there actually are places where an 8 ftoo ground rod
*won't* do it. In most places an inch of water on the surface
spread over 10 feet *away* from you won't do it either.

You need to study that little excerise I outlined for Clark.

He liked the idea of "path of least resistance", but
didn't have any idea where it was. You don't seem to
know what it is.



"You probably think if someone is sitting in the bathtub
and drops an electric hair dry, plugged in and working,
into the water that they will be electrocuted... and
who knows how many other myths! "


They likely as not won't be.

It's a great stunt for how to murder someone in a movie.
In real life it doesn't work so well...


Or from the start of the thread, your comments on the picture of the
pool:

"Nothing looks "staged", or phoney for that matter. "

"Not a problem. (Actually, I've set up something fairly
similar to that, and been in the water.) "

Based on the above, everyone can judge who's the idiot giving out
false and misleading information. But, based on this and some of
your other threads, I think most of us already know.


That you haven't got much of a clue about electricity,
and don't have any idea what the mechanics of either the
pool or a bathtub are.

All you can do is jump up and down "It's electric,
you'll die!"




--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

willshak wrote:
on 2/5/2008 2:48 PM Floyd L. Davidson said the following:
Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

If not a better conductor with less resistance. Why does a submerged car
keep the lights on?

I can't tell for your text exactly what it is you
believe that indicates.

What it does indicate is that clean water is not a
particularly good conductor, otherwise it would short
out the electrical system and the lights would go out
very quickly. Instead, they stay on for quite awhile,
simply because while water is a better conductor than
air, there isn't that much difference as far as the
lights/battery are concerned.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Feb 5, 5:07�pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
willshak wrote:
on 2/5/2008 2:48 PM Floyd L. Davidson said the following:
Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

If not a better conductor with less resistance. Why does a submerged car
keep the lights on?

I can't tell for your text exactly what it is you
believe that indicates.

What it does indicate is that clean water is not a
particularly good conductor, otherwise it would short
out the electrical system and the lights would go out
very quickly. �Instead, they stay on for quite awhile,
simply because while water is a better conductor than
air, there isn't that much difference as far as the
lights/battery are concerned.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) � � � � � �

12 volt car electrical systems dont have the ability to kill or short
out dramatically like 120 volts AC does.

would the person who claims this is safe volunteer to demonstrate.

I am not afraid of electric have worked on high voltage systems over
the years up to 50,000 volts. but i respect electric and wouldnt have
a power line around a pool.

just 14 milli amps can kill a human

only distilled water is non conductive.........

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 14:31:59 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

12 volt car electrical systems dont have the ability to kill or short
out dramatically like 120 volts AC does.

Given a right circumstance I have been shocked by a car battery. Bare
foot (wet feet) tool slipped to metal contact.. I been shocked this
way; some how. It was only once.

Oren
--

" wrote:
On Feb 5, 5:07�pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
willshak wrote:
on 2/5/2008 2:48 PM Floyd L. Davidson said the following:
Do you really think that 5 or 10 feet of clean water is
a good conductor?

If not a better conductor with less resistance. Why does a submerged car
keep the lights on?

I can't tell for your text exactly what it is you
believe that indicates.

What it does indicate is that clean water is not a
particularly good conductor, otherwise it would short
out the electrical system and the lights would go out
very quickly. �Instead, they stay on for quite awhile,
simply because while water is a better conductor than
air, there isn't that much difference as far as the
lights/battery are concerned.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) � � � � � �

12 volt car electrical systems dont have the ability to kill or short
out dramatically like 120 volts AC does.

If you don't think so, just drop a wrench across a car
battery's terminals and see what happens!

Car batteries are even more dramatic than 120 VAC. One
of them just arcs and sparks and makes a bit of ozone...
but the battery is a bomb that blows up!

would the person who claims this is safe volunteer to demonstrate.

I am not afraid of electric have worked on high voltage systems over
the years up to 50,000 volts. but i respect electric and wouldnt have
a power line around a pool.

just 14 milli amps can kill a human

Less than that.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

" wrote:
only distilled water is non conductive.........

That's like saying only acid is conductive.

The fact is, there's everything in between, and clear
tap water is *not* a good conductor.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how
it's
perfectly safe.

You mean like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...er_welding.jpg

It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

....and not following the complete thread...

Only a complete idiot would use an electrical cord in water unless
specifically designed to do so.

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Whatever, when you figure out that the problem I gave
you is not solved with algrebra, and that it is indeed a
lot easier to work with using 1 volt and 1 ohm, come
back and I'll teach you a few other neat things about
electricity.

You really are clueless. You are confusing arithmatic and mathematics. Do
get some education so you stop embarassing yourself.

So you actually don't have any idea at all how to solve
that problem! What a hoot. (No, it isn't "arithmetic".)

In the mean time, keep your day job, because electrical
theory is never going to pay your bills. (Not that you
couldn't be trained to wire a house by rote and by note;
but someone else is going to have to set the rules.)


Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Feb 6, 10:44�pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Whatever, when you figure out that the problem I gave
you is not solved with algrebra, and that it is indeed a
lot easier to work with using 1 volt and 1 ohm, come
back and I'll teach you a few other neat things about
electricity.

You really are clueless. You are confusing arithmatic and mathematics. Do
get some education so you stop embarassing yourself.

So you actually don't have any idea at all how to solve
that problem! �What a hoot. � (No, it isn't "arithmetic".)

In the mean time, keep your day job, because electrical
theory is never going to pay your bills. �(Not that you
couldn't be trained to wire a house by rote and by note;
but someone else is going to have to set the rules.)

Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! �Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) � � � � � �

the water used to clean high tension lines is not grounded. the
insulators are designed to not allow water to collect in a continious
path

a pro can do all sorts of work around high voltage safely if they
follow all the rules.

sadly now and then even a professional lineman makes a mistake and
gets killed.

In article
,
" wrote:

sadly now and then even a professional lineman makes a mistake and
gets killed.

A few years back I caught a history channel (IIRC) show about the
history of linemen. In the early days, they lost a lot of them. Safety
was slow in coming to that industry, as it was in many industries. The
tools and methods evolved, sometimes faltering of course. Yep, it still
only takes a fraction of a second of inattention to get fried.

One cool thing I remember from the show was that a worker can now grab a
million volt line with a resistive grabber stick, and charge his body up
to that potential. Then work on the line all day with no gloves or
special tools. Speeds up many maintenance tasks tenfold or more.

" wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:44�pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Clark wrote:
Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! �Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...

the water used to clean high tension lines is not grounded.

At least no more and no less so than the swimming pool
and other things that supposedly are grounded because
they are wet with a water path to "ground". The point
of course is that just being wet does *not* cause
sufficient ground to make a good electrical path.

And of course it is no more, and no less, "grounded" than
the water that surround fellows who do the welding on
ships and drill rigs underwater that Clark claimed above
is impossible!

the
insulators are designed to not allow water to collect in a continious
path

"Collect" meaning what???

The insulators are *soaked*, and wet all over. That is
sometimes true when it rains, and is always true when
they are sprayed.

a pro can do all sorts of work around high voltage safely if they
follow all the rules.

Exactly my point.

sadly now and then even a professional lineman makes a mistake and
gets killed.

Understanding how it works is a lot safer than "follow
the rules".

I'd guess off hand that "professional linemen" get
killed while working less often than the "average
freeway driver". For that matter, I'll be far more
linemen die in highway accidents that are
electrocuted...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

"Calab" wrote:
Only a complete idiot would use an electrical cord in water unless
specifically designed to do so.

Almost right.

Complete (or even partial) idiots should not use
electricity in and around water. It's too dangerous for
them.

But somebody who knows what going on, and can
specifically design a system to work in and around
water, is quite safe.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Feb 7, 12:54Â*am, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
" wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:44�pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Clark wrote:
Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! �Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...
the water used to clean high tension lines is not grounded.

At least no more and no less so than the swimming pool
and other things that supposedly are grounded because
they are wet with a water path to "ground". Â*The point
of course is that just being wet does *not* cause
sufficient ground to make a good electrical path.

And of course it is no more, and no less, "grounded" than
the water that surround fellows who do the welding on
ships and drill rigs underwater that Clark claimed above
is impossible!

the
insulators are designed to not allow water to collect in a continious
path

"Collect" meaning what???

The insulators are *soaked*, and wet all over. Â*That is
sometimes true when it rains, and is always true when
they are sprayed.

a pro can do all sorts of work around high voltage safely if they
follow all the rules.

Exactly my point.

sadly now and then even a professional lineman makes a mistake and
gets killed.

Understanding how it works is a lot safer than "follow
the rules".

I'd guess off hand that "professional linemen" get
killed while working less often than the "average
freeway driver". Â*For that matter, I'll be far more
linemen die in highway accidents that are
electrocuted...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ever notice the shape of insulators for high voltage, ribbs might be
one lame description, the in and outs keep water from sheeting
providing a path to ground.

" wrote:
On Feb 7, 12:54Â*am, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

And of course it is no more, and no less, "grounded" than
the water that surround fellows who do the welding on
ships and drill rigs underwater that Clark claimed above
is impossible!

the
insulators are designed to not allow water to collect in a continious
path

"Collect" meaning what???

The insulators are *soaked*, and wet all over. *That is
sometimes true when it rains, and is always true when
they are sprayed.

a pro can do all sorts of work around high voltage safely if they
follow all the rules.

Exactly my point.

sadly now and then even a professional lineman makes a mistake and
gets killed.

Understanding how it works is a lot safer than "follow
the rules".

I'd guess off hand that "professional linemen" get
killed while working less often than the "average
freeway driver". *For that matter, I'll be far more
linemen die in highway accidents that are
electrocuted...

ever notice the shape of insulators for high voltage, ribbs might be
one lame description, the in and outs keep water from sheeting
providing a path to ground.

What you are describing actually has nothing to do with
"sheeting" water at at all. Straight vertical sides
would better accomplish what you say it supposedly does.
The ribbs are there to make the actual surface path
physically longer. That helps when the insulator is wet
or damp, to be sure, and it helps just as much when it
is dry and covered with dust.

Regardless, when they are sprayed, and during extended
periods of rain, the insulators are totally wet.
According to what has been claimed in this article by
others, that should short out the line betten phases,
and because the pole is also wet it should short
everthing to ground. It should be deadly to walk near
such a pole! Everyone of them should be bursting into
flames from these short circuits! (Of course none of
that is true, it doesn't happen that way.)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

In article ,
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

SNIP

Floyd, go take a bath with your toaster and your plastic water pipes,
and revel in your infinite wisdom. No one is going to change anyone
else's mind on this one.

On Feb 7, 10:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

SNIP

Floyd, go take a bath with your toaster and your plastic water pipes,
and revel in your infinite wisdom. No one is going to change anyone
else's mind on this one.

I second that motion. Either that or provide us with a link that
backs up Floyd's claims:

A - The practice shown in the OP's photo is "OK"

B - That people can't get electrocuted by a hair dryer falling into a
bathtub. (The NY Times Article I provided smased that one, two 8 year
old girls dead

C - That when the hairdryer falls into the tub, the girls should have
just "picked it up."

Can one person be this stupid?

On Feb 8, 10:43*pm, Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote :

[snip]

According to what has been claimed in this article by
others, that should short out the line betten phases,
and because the pole is also wet it should short
everthing to ground. *

Only in your delusional mind have others claimed this. You really need to
work on your reading comprehension skills. Seriously.

--
---
there should be a "sig" here

the thing to think about is that NOT ALL the current follows through
the direct path of least resistnace. The current will spread out in a
shape similar to the way iron filings spread out around two poles of a
magnet. SOME current will flow at a distance. And it takes only a
few mA to cause you trouble. If you are far enough away, you will be
OK, but if you get too close even without touching a wire, enough
current may pass through you to cause a problem.

Mark

You said nothing in this post.

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in
:

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Whatever, when you figure out that the problem I gave
you is not solved with algrebra, and that it is indeed a
lot easier to work with using 1 volt and 1 ohm, come
back and I'll teach you a few other neat things about
electricity.

You really are clueless. You are confusing arithmatic and mathematics. Do
get some education so you stop embarassing yourself.

So you actually don't have any idea at all how to solve
that problem! What a hoot. (No, it isn't "arithmetic".)

Wrong again Floyd. I'm pointing out the fact that you don't understand
simple algebra and are confusing the arithmetic with that algebra. Go take
a high school class in algebra and try to understand. Okay?

In the mean time, keep your day job, because electrical
theory is never going to pay your bills. (Not that you
couldn't be trained to wire a house by rote and by note;
but someone else is going to have to set the rules.)


Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how
it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

Nope. Never said that at all and you are totally wrong to leap to that
baseless conclusion. Of course I knew you would embarass yourself by once
again jumping to the wrong conclusion. Like I said, go weld underwater and
you'll start to understand...

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...

I never said they were so deadly. Why are you so stupid about thinking that
I said that? Can you read? Do you only see what you want to see? In truth I
think that your head is so far up your ass that you can only see that you
must be correct and everyone that has another point of view must be wrong.
Man you have one ****ty outlook. Good luck Floyd and I hope that things get
better for you.

--
---
there should be a "sig" here

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in :

"Calab" wrote:
Only a complete idiot would use an electrical cord in water unless
specifically designed to do so.

Almost right.

Complete (or even partial) idiots should not use
electricity in and around water. It's too dangerous for
them.

Guess you should live in a desert then.

I do.

Deserts, BTW, are not necessarily void of water.

But somebody who knows what going on, and can
specifically design a system to work in and around
water, is quite safe.

Oh wow. That must be why all those systems out there are run through water.
How many are there?

Well, ain't that odd that you can't find overhead power
lines in places like Ketchikan or Douglas Alaska, or
Seattle Washington, or Florida... places where it
rains, and they are *wet* with water on them a great
deal of the time.

Oh gee, maybe there are so few 'cause they are so hard to
maintain. Too bad you don't admit that Floyd. You really are wrong for
telling people that it's ok to run drop cords through a pool.

I didn't tell anyone to run a drop cord through a pool.
I said that if you know what you're doing, it doesn't
kill people. That's a fact.

You obviously should not try it.

You really
shouldn't even think about it being ok. Do you really hate so much that you'd
like to encourage people to take a chance on electrocuting themselves? If so
you really should get professional mental help. Seriously.

Sinking pretty low there, when you are cornered and have
nothing valid to say, eh?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
And of course it is no more, and no less, "grounded" than
the water that surround fellows who do the welding on
ships and drill rigs underwater that Clark claimed above
is impossible!

Go back and read it again. I did not say that it was impossible. I said
that you should go do it so you would experience the reality for yourself.

Of course I was correct in noting that you would miss the point. Oh well,
that's your loss Floyd since you proved the correctness of my observation.

Everyone seems to have missed your point. That's
because you didn't make one.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Mark wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:43*pm, Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote :

[snip]

According to what has been claimed in this article by
others, that should short out the line betten phases,
and because the pole is also wet it should short
everthing to ground. *

Only in your delusional mind have others claimed this. You really need to
work on your reading comprehension skills. Seriously.

--
---
there should be a "sig" here

the thing to think about is that NOT ALL the current follows through
the direct path of least resistnace. The current will spread out in a
shape similar to the way iron filings spread out around two poles of a
magnet. SOME current will flow at a distance. And it takes only a
few mA to cause you trouble. If you are far enough away, you will be
OK, but if you get too close even without touching a wire, enough
current may pass through you to cause a problem.

That is true, but perhaps doesn't convey quite enough
perspective.

Current flows through a complete circuit, and the amount
of current is an direct inverse relationship to the
amount of resistance. If there is half as much
resistence in one path as opposed to another, there will
be twice as much current. And just the same, if there
is a million times as much resistence, the current will
be 1 millionth.

The trick though, is that 1 millionth of very little is
even less, while 1 millionth of a lot can still be
enough to kill a person. It's knowing which is
appropriate that counts... :-)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in :

Go weld underwater. It will shock you. Try it.

People do it all the time without getting a shock.

If that is your point, you're lost... again.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Guess you should live in a desert then.

I do.

Good. Maybe you won't hurt yourself too bad.

Deserts, BTW, are not necessarily void of water.

Do try to have a point (other than the one on your head).

Looks like I just made on that you didn't understand.
But that appears to be common

Oh wow. That must be why all those systems out there are run through
water. How many are there?

Well, ain't that odd that you can't find overhead power
lines in places like Ketchikan or Douglas Alaska, or
Seattle Washington, or Florida... places where it
rains, and they are *wet* with water on them a great
deal of the time.

Floyd, just in case you hadn't noticed, there is a heck of a difference
between a pool and a rain wet line. Got it?

Not much. The same water is supposedly the conductor.
Who was it claimed that a leak in the pool would cause a
path to ground?

Oh gee, maybe there are so few 'cause they are so hard to
maintain. Too bad you don't admit that Floyd. You really are wrong for
telling people that it's ok to run drop cords through a pool.

I didn't tell anyone to run a drop cord through a pool.
I said that if you know what you're doing, it doesn't
kill people. That's a fact.

No you didn't say that. Go back and read your post and then you can come
back here and apologize for your patently false claim.

I said that.

(here's a hint, you said it wasn't staged and then you said it was ok to do
it)

There was nothing in the many photographs that indicated
it was staged. And obviously, if a person knows what
they are doing it *is* okay to do what they did.

You obviously should not try it.

That's a fact.

You really
shouldn't even think about it being ok. Do you really hate so much that
you'd like to encourage people to take a chance on electrocuting
themselves? If so you really should get professional mental help.
Seriously.

Sinking pretty low there, when you are cornered and have
nothing valid to say, eh?

I see that you can't answer my question. The question is perfectly valid by
the way. Maybe you should show this post to a close friend that you trust
and they can counsel you to get help. Of course you probably don't have any
friends but I tried. Get help Floyd. Seriously.

Projection won't change facts.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in
:


You said nothing in this post.

Then why respond? You just can't stand someone exposing your errors, can
you? Here's a hint: if you can't stand it then don't post. Got it?

More projection.


Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in
:

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
Whatever, when you figure out that the problem I gave
you is not solved with algrebra, and that it is indeed a
lot easier to work with using 1 volt and 1 ohm, come
back and I'll teach you a few other neat things about
electricity.

You really are clueless. You are confusing arithmatic and mathematics.
Do
get some education so you stop embarassing yourself.

So you actually don't have any idea at all how to solve
that problem! What a hoot. (No, it isn't "arithmetic".)

Wrong again Floyd. I'm pointing out the fact that you don't understand
simple algebra and are confusing the arithmetic with that algebra. Go
take
a high school class in algebra and try to understand. Okay?

In the mean time, keep your day job, because electrical
theory is never going to pay your bills. (Not that you
couldn't be trained to wire a house by rote and by note;
but someone else is going to have to set the rules.)


Ok, listen up real close. Go weld underwater and tell me all about how
it's
perfectly safe. It will shock you and you will understand that
combining
electricity and water is really stupid. Well, then again, since you
don't
seem to have much comprehension of the world around you the point will
undoubtedly be missed. Oh well.

So you are saying it is impossible to weld underwater...
which is a bit of another hoot.

Nope. Never said that at all and you are totally wrong to leap to that
baseless conclusion. Of course I knew you would embarass yourself by once
again jumping to the wrong conclusion. Like I said, go weld underwater
and
you'll start to understand...

If electricity and water are *necessarily* so deadly,
tell me why how a guy can take a fire hose and spray
water on a high voltage power distribution line to clean
the dirt off of insulatiors! Or for that matter why
said power line doesn't just melt the poles when it
rains...

I never said they were so deadly. Why are you so stupid about thinking
that
I said that? Can you read? Do you only see what you want to see? In truth
I
think that your head is so far up your ass that you can only see that you
must be correct and everyone that has another point of view must be
wrong.
Man you have one ****ty outlook. Good luck Floyd and I hope that things
get
better for you.

--
---
there should be a "sig" here


--
---
there should be a "sig" here

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in
:

Clark wrote:
(Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in
:

Go weld underwater. It will shock you. Try it.

People do it all the time without getting a shock.

If that is your point, you're lost... again.

No Floyd. Go work with the underwater welders. They are receiving a shock
while they do the work. You don't even have to weld underwater to share their
experience. Just weld in wet conditions and you will learn the facts.

And they've all been electrocuted?

"They are receiving a shock while they work" is a
meaning less statement. If you put your fingers across
a 12 volt battery, you are technically receiving a
shock. So what!

I'm sorry you feel you have to make these false claims. Why do you do it? Do
you really want to see other folks hurt when they follow your advise? You
really should get help for that hate.

Projection...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)