On Jan 27, 12:28*pm, Big_Jake wrote:
We are landlords and manage a house similar in age to what you have,
with very similar issues. *The owners successfully sued the seller of
the property and are waiting for the Spring thaw to get started on the
work, which is going to cost about $15K. *The court case took about 18
months. *Here are some thoughts:


I'm just curious as to the definition of success. The repairs are
going to cost $15K. Unless the buyer was awarded attorney's fees,
which I don't believe is usual, then the buyer had to pay an attorney
to pursue a case that took 18 months. Around here, that would have
consumed most, if not all of the $15K. Which is why it doesn't make
sense, unless the amount is a lot larger, especially considering you
could spend a lot on legal fees, expert testimony, etc, and still
lose.





1) The house has been settling for a long time. *You could probably
wait several years to fix the basement, maybe much longer. *You aren't
going to come home one day to find that the basement has collapsed.

2) It looks like you might have recourse against the seller, the home
inspector, and the Realtor. *Sounds like the seller has a pile of
money from the sale, so they might be the best bet.

3) The ammunition that you need for the lawsuit is costs and scope of
work from several reputable sources. *In my area, there are 2 or 3
very reputable basement specialists, who do not actually do the work,
just inspections. *These are the kind of people who spend their days
looking at problem basements and testifying in court. *How do you find
one in your area? *I don't know. *Check the yellow pages, ask around,
maybe post your location in a follow up so we know where you are.

4) Now that you are aware that there may be a serious issues issues
with the house, you cannot sell the house without disclosing it to
potential buyers and agents. *You have already stated that you
wouldn't lie to sell the house, so, simply put, you can't sell the
house right now.

The market is sliding right now, practically everywhere. Even if you
had the $$ to fix the house, you would lose out if you sell it right
away.

BTW, for this house that I am managing with similar issues - The
seller caulked and painted over a horizontal crack that was about 1/4"
to 3/8" wide. *The court considered this an attempt to conceal the
problem and this was a major nail in his coffin in court.

Learn to love the house that you are in. *Do your homework, get your
lawsuit going, and take things step by step.

JK

Interesting, I don't thing we have this specific law in place but I will
check. It was the inspector himself who claimed to be a :deal breaker", my
fault for falling for it. He was not recommended by our agent, I refused to
use hers (and it ticked her off a bit I think).
My friend with the home remodeling business told me he didn't know enough
about foundations to be of any help. Too bad, I wanted someone I could
trust. I'll keep looking. I may just pay a structural engineer who doesn't
do the repair himself (although it's possible he would want to make a
recommendation and therefore would be motivated to cry the sky is falling.
See, I'm learning).
The house is actually pretty well landscaped (when there's no snow on the
ground), so I don't need to do a lot there, just manicuring. I do need to
add some dirt/grass to the grade and extend the downspouts a little.
And I don't want to talk about the electrical. All two prong upstairs,
which I knew. But the basement has all three prong outlets. I thought that
was good since I would have my computer down here and GFCI doesn't do any
good with electronics (static electricity and all). However, not one of the
plugs in the basement is grounded. Why would someone wire the basement and
use grounded outlets with two-wire romex? Geez.
Anyway, thanks once again for all the advice. I'm just fighting for may
family's financial well being and my peace of mind.
-Mac

"cshenk" wrote in message
...

"Mac" wrote

I payed the inspector. My wife kept our egent busy for a few minutes so
I could speak with the inspector alone during the post-inspection walk
through.

That's essential. In my state, the realtor is not allowed to be there
when the inspector discusses the findings but the findings afterwards may
be given to the realtor. In our case, the realtor was there, but not in
the same place (he was out in the back yard).

I *think* I recall that VA state or my local county/city law required the
realtor be advised if there were any actual safety issues discovered.
Those issues then had to be disclosed to any potential buyers until
inspection showed they had been fixed. There were two in our house, but
it was not a major stop. It was the electrical outlet that operated the
garage door opener (2 prong with adapter ungrounded plugged in for a 3
prong device) and the cord for the electric motor for the well pump in the
back yard. We dont use the well pump, and we replaced the garage door and
mechanism with a manual unit to match the new siding.

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , cshenk says...

"dadiOH" wrote

But the good news is - you're in a disclosure state it sounds like
- you can pursue this through a lawyer. And the house isn't going
to fall down tomorrow. It's still a house for the living in while
you decide what to do, cracks or no cracks.

Not really. Even in a disclosure state, you have some protections as a
seller. My state is a mix-match there I think if I understand it right.
If
you do not want to be held liable, you sell as 'non-disclosure' which
means
you can not be held liable for anything. If you do disclose, you have
limits on what you can be sued for later as based on reasonable knowledge
basis.

You can for example: Disclose no knowledge of any roof problems, and not
be
held liable if 5 years later it turns out the roof starts to go.

How do you figure that? If the seller knew of material problems and
did not disclose them the *seller* is on the hook for repairs. It is

Not really. If the state doesnt require disclosure, but 'allows for it if
you want to' there's a huge difference.


One limit is that you need to show the seller *knew*. Especially if
they're not
the original occupants of the house, that may be hard to show. For
example, did
the freezer that blocked the view of the shifted block come with the house
when
*they* bought?

I know that a lot of people don't want to do certain repairs or even bring
an
engineer in because it would make it easier to show something they didn't
disclose. (Oh the tangled web we weave....)

Banty


Actually, this was a one-owner home. They were here for over forty years.
And since some of the cracks were poorly repaired, I find it difficult to
accept they didn't know. I don't think "they didn't know" would hold up in
court.

Good point. Although they did know enough to "try" and repair some of the
cracks.

Mac wrote:
Our buying agent was paid by the seller. We were assured that she
represented our best interests by law.

Sorry, no. "Your" agent was the showing agent, legally working for
the seller, and splitting the commission with the listing agent. A
buyer's agent is someone who contracts with the buyer, usually for
a flat fee (not a commission), to represent the buyer and only the
buyer. Unfortunately, many people who go around calling themselves
a buyer's agent are nothing of the kind: they are agents who are
not good enough at selling to have any listings of their own. They
survive by trying to be the first to show buyers a house, and then
they demand half of the commission if "their" buyer ends up buying
the house. Consequently, these agents are keen to show you lots of
houses, which impresses some buyers tremendously.

I spent a day with one of these agents, driving around to look at
houses I had researched, I had found driving directions to, etc.;
all this guy did was use his magic dongle to unlock the lock boxes
on the doors of unoccupied houses. I'd given him a list in advance
but he didn't bother to arrange for us to see any of the occupied
houses. I guess he figured a drive by would pass as first showing.
After that experience, I dealt only with the listing agent of each
house I looked at.

Una

"Mac" wrote

Interesting, I don't thing we have this specific law in place but I will
check. It was the inspector himself who claimed to be a :deal breaker",
my

Harmless to check. You can probably find out from google. If you'll tell
me what state you are in, I can look about too. I might find it faster
because I kinda know what I am looking for.

fault for falling for it. He was not recommended by our agent, I refused
to use hers (and it ticked her off a bit I think).

Most agents get a small kickback for this from the 'inspector'. Before you
think that is horrible, be at ease. As long as they do an honest report,
thats ok. Normally, they do an honest report because they can be held
liable in most places for gross negligence if they do not.

My friend with the home remodeling business told me he didn't know enough
about foundations to be of any help. Too bad, I wanted someone I could

Too bad. I'd have thought he would know enough to at least say 'gee, I can
tell that is really serious' or 'gee, sorry, this level I cant tell if it's
serious or not'

trust. I'll keep looking. I may just pay a structural engineer who
doesn't do the repair himself (although it's possible he would want to
make a recommendation and therefore would be motivated to cry the sky is
falling. See, I'm learning).

We all do. I didnt even blink at the 1725$ for the chimney repair I needed.
I did not bother to get a second estimate. I went with an old established
company I knew and had used before, well recommended by others in my area.
Extremely HIGH quality work. Because they are a franchise, I can not say if
that comany would be good anywhere else, but here they are top choice.

The house is actually pretty well landscaped (when there's no snow on the
ground), so I don't need to do a lot there, just manicuring. I do need to
add some dirt/grass to the grade and extend the downspouts a little.

Flowers and bulbs, low maintenance bulbs are planted in late fall or
earliest spring. I'm slightly seeging topics here but if you are serious
still that you may want to sell, 'curb appeal' can make a whopping huge
difference.

Mom used to 'flip houses' (new term, we didnt have a name for it then) for a
living. Her and us 3 kids would live in the house, fix it, then sell it for
a profit. We'd live off the proceeds and put the seed money into another.
It was in South Carolina where we had one that we did almost nothing but
paint and put up a little wallpaper, and fix the yard. 3,000 bulbs, 4 trees,
a lilac 'garden', azaleas, roses, gardinias. A few pansies but most was
'plant and forget'. Though some bulb types have to be dug up in winter then
replanted or they get 'confused and come up wierd looking next year' most do
not. We sold that house with 5 competing buyers all offering more and more
til one was the winner. We even had bulb types that flowered all different
seasons so you'd see some in fall. Amaranth? Sorry, been to long to recall
well.

And I don't want to talk about the electrical. All two prong upstairs,
which I knew. But the basement has all three prong outlets. I thought
that

I have much of that here too.

was good since I would have my computer down here and GFCI doesn't do any
good with electronics (static electricity and all). However, not one of
the plugs in the basement is grounded. Why would someone wire the
basement and use grounded outlets with two-wire romex? Geez.

They simply didnt rewire it. They just replaced the outlet with a 3 prong
type and left the ground not plugged into anything. Grin, learn to use a
multimeter and it takes seconds to see that one.

I have the same in some areas but some of the house was rewired to a proper
true 3 prong. Livingroom, kitchen, bar, 1 of the 3 bedrooms, much of back
porch, garage. I have 3 bedrooms with 2 prong and no ground wires run. 7
of the 19 outlets on the back porch just 'look like 3 prong' but arent
really. I have no outlets in either bathroom (something we'd fix if selling
but it actually doesnt bother us any at all).

Anyway, thanks once again for all the advice. I'm just fighting for may
family's financial well being and my peace of mind.
-Mac

Welcome! The most trying time for a new homeowner, is the first 2 years.
Suddenly instead of it being 'some one elses problem, its YOURS'. But as
time goes on, you start building equity and that feels *wonderful* once you
have been there a bit and start to notice it. At first all you notice is
the problems and the costs.

I bought at 83,500$ in 1995. The only reason why my house is only worth
160,000$ now is I am top end for my neighborhood. My 'mortgage' is fixed
(never do anything else! Change if you went variable as soon as you can
when the rates are low!) and still only 766$ a month which includes the
taxes and insurance. Because we also kick an extra amount at them every 3
months of about 300$ which comes straight off the principle owed, we now
'own' a bit over 1/2 the house. My rate can never go up though the portion
which is insurance or taxes can.

It's a 4 BR, 1.5 bath with full garage (which is still a garage and attached
landry room) 1,100sq ft. Rental value alone in my area is 1,100 for the
place next door with no fireplace, no enclosed garage, no back porch (mine
is HUGE), only 3 BR 1 bath, postage stamp sized 850sq.

"Mac" wrote in message
news:fexnj.3944$ZO5.2798@trnddc03...
Good point. Although they did know enough to "try" and repair some of the
cracks.

Thats doesnt mean much. They could genuinely have thought it was cosmetic
and made cosmetic repairs. You'd have to be able to 'prove' otherwise.

Case in point. I just spent 750$ on a plummer. I split pipes in the cold
due to a defective pipe heater that may have been as much as 20 years old.
The real reason is the roof area it lead to was totally uninsulated yet that
was hidden by a solid plywood 'roof' so no one knew except the origional
owner that he'd installed itt hat way. I am the 3rd owner than the 2nd one
would not have known it either. Both me and the one I bought from knew there
was a pipe heater and to plug it in, but neither knew there was zero
insulation up there.

On Jan 27, 9:40*pm, Boden wrote:
Mac wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message
...

Mac wrote:

Hello everyone,
My wife and I bought our first house. *A bit of a long story but suffice
it to say that we had very little time to make our decision and were
burnt out when we finally did.
We got the boot from our seven year rental house because the landlords
wanted to move back in. *We used up 40 of our sixty days on a house that
didn't pass inspection (and the sellers rejected the inspection). *When
we were finally released from the first house we had about a week to
choose a place (we could afford), make the offer, negotiate, close, and
move. *We knew we should rent and try to slow things down but couldn't
find anything that would take our four cats.
So, during the final walk through we noticed a couple of cracks in the
block foundation. *Our realtor told us we could simply fill the cracks
with a specially formulated epoxy (and gun) and told me where to buy it..
After the closing, we went straight to the place she told up to go and
they looked at me kind of sad like and said, "she doesn't know what she's
talking about, you can't use epoxy for block walls. *I felt the dark
clouds forming over my head at that moment. *The epoxy supplier gave us a
name of a contractor and he came to the house. *He told us not to move in
(which was to happen the very next day), and that we got hosed. *Every
wall (that we can see) has several cracks in it (initially hidden by
boxes shoved into closets that were built over the cracked walls). *In
hind site, we should have walked away from the place after the final
walkthrough but we were lead to believe that the walkthrough was just a
formality and that we were pretty much locked in to the purchase at that
point.
Okay, so the seller's disclosure form claims there are no cracks in the
basement walls, that there are no leakage problems (which there are), and
no material or plumbing defects that would cause leaking water (I had to
completely regrout the tile shower stall to make it usable.
We found the home buying process to be very dishonest and ugly. *I
thought I did my homework (my wife said I was obsessed with not getting
screwed, which I was) but here we are.
These folks made a huge profit (enough to retire on) from us and we're
paycheck to paycheck people stuck with a house we would have to lie about
to resell (which we won't do).
So, short of spending 20-30 grand to have the foundation fixed, what can
we do? *We don't have (and never will have) that kind of money.
Some folks have told me that many buyers don't really care about cracks
in foundation walls (in a house this age, built in the early sixties),
but I find this hard to believe.
After all we've been through, we would like to sell the place for the
price of the loan and get another rental (at least for a while). *I am an
educator and spend my days trying to teach honesty and integrity and this
whole experience affected me deeply. *It's not a bad place (other than
the problems described), it's in a good neighborhood, close to a church,
and pretty quiet with very nice neighbors. *But still, I want out in a
year or so.
Are there any consumer protection agencies for this sort of thing? *There
are plenty of books out there on how to screw people over but nothing for
the person that gets screwed.
Any advice? *Should we just chisel out the cracks (steps, horizontal, and
vertical) and fill them with mortar as best we can? *I'm a handy guy but
know next to nothing about masonry.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.

I've been following this post for several days and have a couple of
thoughts. *It sounds like you've been had. *To make you whole you will
probably need to litigate. *Take a set of good photos that illustrate the
problem(s). *Make the measurements suggested elsewhere to determine if the
walls are moving, and are now non-planar. *Find an attorney with a good
track record in this area, not one that a friend of a friend suggests. *Do
your homework and interview several. *You are hiring them as a
consultant...approach it that way.

A first order search could be done by using Martindale-Hubble
(www.martindale.com) *Talk with the attorney, ask him to suggest an
engineer. *The reason for this is that the attorney will know which
engineer will provide the evaluation and opinion that is most likely to
aid you. *This may not be the same engineer you will use later to design a
remedy, but the best engineer, complete with plastic pocket protector may
not be the one your attorney wants testifying.

If you can find an attorney who will take this (perhaps on contingency)
then have at the seller. *After you know what resources you have to fix
the problem talk with a good engineer and perhaps a hydro-geologist if
water is an issue. *Remember though that little can be accomplished to
hold back water from the inside of the foundation. *Diversion of the water
from the outside is the most effective approach. *French drains, perimeter
drains at the level of the footings, etc. are most effective.

I'm an engineer who has worked with numerous attorneys as an expert
witness...we've never lost a case. *(I don't do it any more. *I'm
retired.) However, I feel quite confident when I say that as with any
profession, 90% of the engineers and attorneys are not in the top 10%.
Choose carefully.

Boden

Boden,
Feel like coming out of retirement?
Seriously, thanks for the advice. *I hope I'm better at choosing an attorney
than I am at real estate agents and inspectors.
I'm concerned though, if I go with an experienced attorney that has been in
the area for a while...he may know the seller. *The seller was a businessman
in this area for almost forty years. *If I go with a young hot shot, he/she
may lack experience. *Should I look for someone with a limited area of
expertise (including real estate) or one with a broader scope?
I will do my homework and take the measurements.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.
-Mac

I'd look for an attorney outside the town/city you live in. *Find out
where the court for your county is. *Look for an attorney in that city.
* Some individual practitioners are very good, but the larger firms tend
to have resources that may be useful. *The hourly cost is not as
important as the total cost. *I find that the more experienced folks
often cost less at the end of the day. *Negotiate. *Contingency, fixed
price, not to exceed, etc. *Attorneys are in business too.

Boden- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Before I get all lawyered up, I'd find out the total extent of the
problems, which no one knows at this point. If you have only $5K in
repairs, then small claims is likely going to be the best option.
It's very unlikely an attorney is going to take this kind of case on
contingency, unless the potential recovery is large. Between
attorney's fees and expert witness fees, you have to make a rational
decision of what this could cost, vs what you MIGHT win. And then
there is the issue of collecting. Getting a judgement and collecting
are two different things.

I'd ask around for references for lawyers from people you know.

In article , cshenk says...

"Mac" wrote

Interesting, I don't thing we have this specific law in place but I will
check. It was the inspector himself who claimed to be a :deal breaker",
my

Harmless to check. You can probably find out from google. If you'll tell
me what state you are in, I can look about too. I might find it faster
because I kinda know what I am looking for.

fault for falling for it. He was not recommended by our agent, I refused
to use hers (and it ticked her off a bit I think).

Most agents get a small kickback for this from the 'inspector'. Before you
think that is horrible, be at ease. As long as they do an honest report,
thats ok. Normally, they do an honest report because they can be held
liable in most places for gross negligence if they do not.

Isn't that always the excuse - kickbacks are OK if the work is goodanyway. :-/
The *problem* is - it's an incentive that works better if the work isn't good
(more for less work) or in the interest of the agent (dishonest). That the
inspection would be good would be in spite of, not because of or even neutral
with regard to, the kickback.

It's well worthwhile for a buyer to get his or her own inspector. Even if it
means hiring one *and* going along with the inspection the agent insists on.



My friend with the home remodeling business told me he didn't know enough
about foundations to be of any help. Too bad, I wanted someone I could

Too bad. I'd have thought he would know enough to at least say 'gee, I can
tell that is really serious' or 'gee, sorry, this level I cant tell if it's
serious or not'

He's honest enough to say that he doesn't have the expertise regarding
foundations. That's a Good Thing.

Banty

In article ,
says...

On Jan 27, 9:40=A0pm, Boden wrote:
Mac wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message
...

Mac wrote:

Hello everyone,
My wife and I bought our first house. =A0A bit of a long story but suff=
ice
it to say that we had very little time to make our decision and were
burnt out when we finally did.
We got the boot from our seven year rental house because the landlords
wanted to move back in. =A0We used up 40 of our sixty days on a house t=
hat
didn't pass inspection (and the sellers rejected the inspection). =A0Wh=
en
we were finally released from the first house we had about a week to
choose a place (we could afford), make the offer, negotiate, close, and=

move. =A0We knew we should rent and try to slow things down but couldn'=
t
find anything that would take our four cats.
So, during the final walk through we noticed a couple of cracks in the
block foundation. =A0Our realtor told us we could simply fill the crack=
s
with a specially formulated epoxy (and gun) and told me where to buy it=
.
After the closing, we went straight to the place she told up to go and
they looked at me kind of sad like and said, "she doesn't know what she=
's
talking about, you can't use epoxy for block walls. =A0I felt the dark
clouds forming over my head at that moment. =A0The epoxy supplier gave =
us a
name of a contractor and he came to the house. =A0He told us not to mov=
e in
(which was to happen the very next day), and that we got hosed. =A0Ever=
y
wall (that we can see) has several cracks in it (initially hidden by
boxes shoved into closets that were built over the cracked walls). =A0I=
n
hind site, we should have walked away from the place after the final
walkthrough but we were lead to believe that the walkthrough was just a=

formality and that we were pretty much locked in to the purchase at tha=
t
point.
Okay, so the seller's disclosure form claims there are no cracks in the=

basement walls, that there are no leakage problems (which there are), a=
nd
no material or plumbing defects that would cause leaking water (I had t=
o
completely regrout the tile shower stall to make it usable.
We found the home buying process to be very dishonest and ugly. =A0I
thought I did my homework (my wife said I was obsessed with not getting=

screwed, which I was) but here we are.
These folks made a huge profit (enough to retire on) from us and we're
paycheck to paycheck people stuck with a house we would have to lie abo=
ut
to resell (which we won't do).
So, short of spending 20-30 grand to have the foundation fixed, what ca=
n
we do? =A0We don't have (and never will have) that kind of money.
Some folks have told me that many buyers don't really care about cracks=

in foundation walls (in a house this age, built in the early sixties),
but I find this hard to believe.
After all we've been through, we would like to sell the place for the
price of the loan and get another rental (at least for a while). =A0I a=
m an
educator and spend my days trying to teach honesty and integrity and th=
is
whole experience affected me deeply. =A0It's not a bad place (other tha=
n
the problems described), it's in a good neighborhood, close to a church=
,
and pretty quiet with very nice neighbors. =A0But still, I want out in =
a
year or so.
Are there any consumer protection agencies for this sort of thing? =A0T=
here
are plenty of books out there on how to screw people over but nothing f=
or
the person that gets screwed.
Any advice? =A0Should we just chisel out the cracks (steps, horizontal,=
and
vertical) and fill them with mortar as best we can? =A0I'm a handy guy =
but
know next to nothing about masonry.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.

I've been following this post for several days and have a couple of
thoughts. =A0It sounds like you've been had. =A0To make you whole you wi=
ll
probably need to litigate. =A0Take a set of good photos that illustrate =
the
problem(s). =A0Make the measurements suggested elsewhere to determine if=
the
walls are moving, and are now non-planar. =A0Find an attorney with a goo=
d
track record in this area, not one that a friend of a friend suggests. =
=A0Do
your homework and interview several. =A0You are hiring them as a
consultant...approach it that way.

A first order search could be done by using Martindale-Hubble
(www.martindale.com) =A0Talk with the attorney, ask him to suggest an
engineer. =A0The reason for this is that the attorney will know which
engineer will provide the evaluation and opinion that is most likely to
aid you. =A0This may not be the same engineer you will use later to desi=
gn a
remedy, but the best engineer, complete with plastic pocket protector ma=
y
not be the one your attorney wants testifying.

If you can find an attorney who will take this (perhaps on contingency)
then have at the seller. =A0After you know what resources you have to fi=
x
the problem talk with a good engineer and perhaps a hydro-geologist if
water is an issue. =A0Remember though that little can be accomplished to=

hold back water from the inside of the foundation. =A0Diversion of the w=
ater
from the outside is the most effective approach. =A0French drains, perim=
eter
drains at the level of the footings, etc. are most effective.

I'm an engineer who has worked with numerous attorneys as an expert
witness...we've never lost a case. =A0(I don't do it any more. =A0I'm
retired.) However, I feel quite confident when I say that as with any
profession, 90% of the engineers and attorneys are not in the top 10%.
Choose carefully.

Boden

Boden,
Feel like coming out of retirement?
Seriously, thanks for the advice. =A0I hope I'm better at choosing an at=
torney
than I am at real estate agents and inspectors.
I'm concerned though, if I go with an experienced attorney that has been=
in
the area for a while...he may know the seller. =A0The seller was a busin=
essman
in this area for almost forty years. =A0If I go with a young hot shot, h=
e/she
may lack experience. =A0Should I look for someone with a limited area of=

expertise (including real estate) or one with a broader scope?
I will do my homework and take the measurements.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.
-Mac

I'd look for an attorney outside the town/city you live in. =A0Find out
where the court for your county is. =A0Look for an attorney in that city.
=A0 Some individual practitioners are very good, but the larger firms tend=

to have resources that may be useful. =A0The hourly cost is not as
important as the total cost. =A0I find that the more experienced folks
often cost less at the end of the day. =A0Negotiate. =A0Contingency, fixed=

price, not to exceed, etc. =A0Attorneys are in business too.

Boden- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Before I get all lawyered up, I'd find out the total extent of the
problems, which no one knows at this point. If you have only $5K in
repairs, then small claims is likely going to be the best option.
It's very unlikely an attorney is going to take this kind of case on
contingency, unless the potential recovery is large. Between
attorney's fees and expert witness fees, you have to make a rational
decision of what this could cost, vs what you MIGHT win. And then
there is the issue of collecting. Getting a judgement and collecting
are two different things.

I'd ask around for references for lawyers from people you know.

He can consult once with a lawyer about property matters in order to know what
the law is and requirements are w.r.t. disclosure. He doesn't have to "lawyer
up" to gain benefit from legal advice.

Banty

wrote:
On Jan 27, 9:40 pm, Boden wrote:
Mac wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message
...
Mac wrote:
Hello everyone,
My wife and I bought our first house. A bit of a long story but suffice
it to say that we had very little time to make our decision and were
burnt out when we finally did.
We got the boot from our seven year rental house because the landlords
wanted to move back in. We used up 40 of our sixty days on a house that
didn't pass inspection (and the sellers rejected the inspection). When
we were finally released from the first house we had about a week to
choose a place (we could afford), make the offer, negotiate, close, and
move. We knew we should rent and try to slow things down but couldn't
find anything that would take our four cats.
So, during the final walk through we noticed a couple of cracks in the
block foundation. Our realtor told us we could simply fill the cracks
with a specially formulated epoxy (and gun) and told me where to buy it.
After the closing, we went straight to the place she told up to go and
they looked at me kind of sad like and said, "she doesn't know what she's
talking about, you can't use epoxy for block walls. I felt the dark
clouds forming over my head at that moment. The epoxy supplier gave us a
name of a contractor and he came to the house. He told us not to move in
(which was to happen the very next day), and that we got hosed. Every
wall (that we can see) has several cracks in it (initially hidden by
boxes shoved into closets that were built over the cracked walls). In
hind site, we should have walked away from the place after the final
walkthrough but we were lead to believe that the walkthrough was just a
formality and that we were pretty much locked in to the purchase at that
point.
Okay, so the seller's disclosure form claims there are no cracks in the
basement walls, that there are no leakage problems (which there are), and
no material or plumbing defects that would cause leaking water (I had to
completely regrout the tile shower stall to make it usable.
We found the home buying process to be very dishonest and ugly. I
thought I did my homework (my wife said I was obsessed with not getting
screwed, which I was) but here we are.
These folks made a huge profit (enough to retire on) from us and we're
paycheck to paycheck people stuck with a house we would have to lie about
to resell (which we won't do).
So, short of spending 20-30 grand to have the foundation fixed, what can
we do? We don't have (and never will have) that kind of money.
Some folks have told me that many buyers don't really care about cracks
in foundation walls (in a house this age, built in the early sixties),
but I find this hard to believe.
After all we've been through, we would like to sell the place for the
price of the loan and get another rental (at least for a while). I am an
educator and spend my days trying to teach honesty and integrity and this
whole experience affected me deeply. It's not a bad place (other than
the problems described), it's in a good neighborhood, close to a church,
and pretty quiet with very nice neighbors. But still, I want out in a
year or so.
Are there any consumer protection agencies for this sort of thing? There
are plenty of books out there on how to screw people over but nothing for
the person that gets screwed.
Any advice? Should we just chisel out the cracks (steps, horizontal, and
vertical) and fill them with mortar as best we can? I'm a handy guy but
know next to nothing about masonry.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.


two rolled on coats of an epoxy paint (always have pinholes etc
with on coat) would seal the surfaces just fine (and look good).
Of course that will not do anything about why the cracks formed or
stop future cracking. Cost for the epoxy would be about $1 to
$1.50 (for 2 coats). you could just epoxy and fiberglass cloth
the cracks one by one.....


paul oman
progressive epoxy

On Jan 29, 8:31*am, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...







On Jan 27, 9:40=A0pm, Boden wrote:
Mac wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message
...

Mac wrote:

Hello everyone,
My wife and I bought our first house. =A0A bit of a long story but suff=
ice
it to say that we had very little time to make our decision and were
burnt out when we finally did.
We got the boot from our seven year rental house because the landlords
wanted to move back in. =A0We used up 40 of our sixty days on a house t=
hat
didn't pass inspection (and the sellers rejected the inspection). =A0Wh=
en
we were finally released from the first house we had about a week to
choose a place (we could afford), make the offer, negotiate, close, and=

move. =A0We knew we should rent and try to slow things down but couldn'=
t
find anything that would take our four cats.
So, during the final walk through we noticed a couple of cracks in the
block foundation. =A0Our realtor told us we could simply fill the crack=
s
with a specially formulated epoxy (and gun) and told me where to buy it=
.
After the closing, we went straight to the place she told up to go and
they looked at me kind of sad like and said, "she doesn't know what she=
's
talking about, you can't use epoxy for block walls. =A0I felt the dark
clouds forming over my head at that moment. =A0The epoxy supplier gave =
us a
name of a contractor and he came to the house. =A0He told us not to mov=
e in
(which was to happen the very next day), and that we got hosed. =A0Ever=
y
wall (that we can see) has several cracks in it (initially hidden by
boxes shoved into closets that were built over the cracked walls). =A0I=
n
hind site, we should have walked away from the place after the final
walkthrough but we were lead to believe that the walkthrough was just a=

formality and that we were pretty much locked in to the purchase at tha=
t
point.
Okay, so the seller's disclosure form claims there are no cracks in the=

basement walls, that there are no leakage problems (which there are), a=
nd
no material or plumbing defects that would cause leaking water (I had t=
o
completely regrout the tile shower stall to make it usable.
We found the home buying process to be very dishonest and ugly. =A0I
thought I did my homework (my wife said I was obsessed with not getting=

screwed, which I was) but here we are.
These folks made a huge profit (enough to retire on) from us and we're
paycheck to paycheck people stuck with a house we would have to lie abo=
ut
to resell (which we won't do).
So, short of spending 20-30 grand to have the foundation fixed, what ca=
n
we do? =A0We don't have (and never will have) that kind of money.
Some folks have told me that many buyers don't really care about cracks=

in foundation walls (in a house this age, built in the early sixties),
but I find this hard to believe.
After all we've been through, we would like to sell the place for the
price of the loan and get another rental (at least for a while). =A0I a=
m an
educator and spend my days trying to teach honesty and integrity and th=
is
whole experience affected me deeply. =A0It's not a bad place (other tha=
n
the problems described), it's in a good neighborhood, close to a church=
,
and pretty quiet with very nice neighbors. =A0But still, I want out in =
a
year or so.
Are there any consumer protection agencies for this sort of thing? =A0T=
here
are plenty of books out there on how to screw people over but nothing f=
or
the person that gets screwed.
Any advice? =A0Should we just chisel out the cracks (steps, horizontal,=
and
vertical) and fill them with mortar as best we can? =A0I'm a handy guy =
but
know next to nothing about masonry.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.

I've been following this post for several days and have a couple of
thoughts. =A0It sounds like you've been had. =A0To make you whole you wi=
ll
probably need to litigate. =A0Take a set of good photos that illustrate =
the
problem(s). =A0Make the measurements suggested elsewhere to determine if=
the
walls are moving, and are now non-planar. =A0Find an attorney with a goo=
d
track record in this area, not one that a friend of a friend suggests.. =
=A0Do
your homework and interview several. =A0You are hiring them as a
consultant...approach it that way.

A first order search could be done by using Martindale-Hubble
(www.martindale.com) =A0Talk with the attorney, ask him to suggest an
engineer. =A0The reason for this is that the attorney will know which
engineer will provide the evaluation and opinion that is most likely to
aid you. =A0This may not be the same engineer you will use later to desi=
gn a
remedy, but the best engineer, complete with plastic pocket protector ma=
y
not be the one your attorney wants testifying.

If you can find an attorney who will take this (perhaps on contingency)
then have at the seller. =A0After you know what resources you have to fi=
x
the problem talk with a good engineer and perhaps a hydro-geologist if
water is an issue. =A0Remember though that little can be accomplished to=

hold back water from the inside of the foundation. =A0Diversion of the w=
ater
from the outside is the most effective approach. =A0French drains, perim=
eter
drains at the level of the footings, etc. are most effective.

I'm an engineer who has worked with numerous attorneys as an expert
witness...we've never lost a case. =A0(I don't do it any more. =A0I'm
retired.) However, I feel quite confident when I say that as with any
profession, 90% of the engineers and attorneys are not in the top 10%..
Choose carefully.

Boden

Boden,
Feel like coming out of retirement?
Seriously, thanks for the advice. =A0I hope I'm better at choosing an at=
torney
than I am at real estate agents and inspectors.
I'm concerned though, if I go with an experienced attorney that has been=
in
the area for a while...he may know the seller. =A0The seller was a busin=
essman
in this area for almost forty years. =A0If I go with a young hot shot, h=
e/she
may lack experience. =A0Should I look for someone with a limited area of=

expertise (including real estate) or one with a broader scope?
I will do my homework and take the measurements.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.
-Mac

I'd look for an attorney outside the town/city you live in. =A0Find out
where the court for your county is. =A0Look for an attorney in that city.
=A0 Some individual practitioners are very good, but the larger firms tend=

to have resources that may be useful. =A0The hourly cost is not as
important as the total cost. =A0I find that the more experienced folks
often cost less at the end of the day. =A0Negotiate. =A0Contingency, fixed=

price, not to exceed, etc. =A0Attorneys are in business too.

Boden- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Before I get all lawyered up, I'd find out the total extent of the
problems, which no one knows at this point. * *If you have only $5K in
repairs, then small claims is likely going to be the best option.
It's very unlikely an attorney is going to take this kind of case on
contingency, unless the potential recovery is large. *Between
attorney's fees and expert witness fees, you have to make a rational
decision of what this could cost, vs what you MIGHT win. * And then
there is the issue of collecting. * Getting a judgement and collecting
are two different things.

I'd ask around for references for lawyers from people you know.

He can consult once with a lawyer about property matters in order to know what
the law is and requirements are w.r.t. disclosure. *He doesn't have to "lawyer
up" to gain benefit from legal advice.

Banty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes, many lawyers offer a free consultation. But you need to have
some common sense going into this. He doesn't even know the extent
of the problems. I'd concentrate on that before worrying about
choosing a lawyer. If he's out $2K, it's a whole different picture
than being out $50K. It's better he know which it is before he wastes
time with a lawyer based on hypotheticals.

In article ,
says...

On Jan 29, 8:31=A0am, Banty wrote:
In article .=
com,
says...







On Jan 27, 9:40=3DA0pm, Boden wrote:
Mac wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message
...

Mac wrote:

Hello everyone,
My wife and I bought our first house. =3DA0A bit of a long story but=
suff=3D
ice
it to say that we had very little time to make our decision and were=

burnt out when we finally did.
We got the boot from our seven year rental house because the landlor=
ds
wanted to move back in. =3DA0We used up 40 of our sixty days on a ho=
use t=3D
hat
didn't pass inspection (and the sellers rejected the inspection). =
=3DA0Wh=3D
en
we were finally released from the first house we had about a week to=

choose a place (we could afford), make the offer, negotiate, close, =
and=3D

move. =3DA0We knew we should rent and try to slow things down but co=
uldn'=3D
t
find anything that would take our four cats.
So, during the final walk through we noticed a couple of cracks in t=
he
block foundation. =3DA0Our realtor told us we could simply fill the =
crack=3D
s
with a specially formulated epoxy (and gun) and told me where to buy=
it=3D
.
After the closing, we went straight to the place she told up to go a=
nd
they looked at me kind of sad like and said, "she doesn't know what =
she=3D
's
talking about, you can't use epoxy for block walls. =3DA0I felt the =
dark
clouds forming over my head at that moment. =3DA0The epoxy supplier =
gave =3D
us a
name of a contractor and he came to the house. =3DA0He told us not t=
o mov=3D
e in
(which was to happen the very next day), and that we got hosed. =3DA=
0Ever=3D
y
wall (that we can see) has several cracks in it (initially hidden by=

boxes shoved into closets that were built over the cracked walls). =
=3DA0I=3D
n
hind site, we should have walked away from the place after the final=

walkthrough but we were lead to believe that the walkthrough was jus=
t a=3D

formality and that we were pretty much locked in to the purchase at =
tha=3D
t
point.
Okay, so the seller's disclosure form claims there are no cracks in =
the=3D

basement walls, that there are no leakage problems (which there are)=
, a=3D
nd
no material or plumbing defects that would cause leaking water (I ha=
d t=3D
o
completely regrout the tile shower stall to make it usable.
We found the home buying process to be very dishonest and ugly. =3DA=
0I
thought I did my homework (my wife said I was obsessed with not gett=
ing=3D

screwed, which I was) but here we are.
These folks made a huge profit (enough to retire on) from us and we'=
re
paycheck to paycheck people stuck with a house we would have to lie =
abo=3D
ut
to resell (which we won't do).
So, short of spending 20-30 grand to have the foundation fixed, what=
ca=3D
n
we do? =3DA0We don't have (and never will have) that kind of money.
Some folks have told me that many buyers don't really care about cra=
cks=3D

in foundation walls (in a house this age, built in the early sixties=
),
but I find this hard to believe.
After all we've been through, we would like to sell the place for th=
e
price of the loan and get another rental (at least for a while). =3D=
A0I a=3D
m an
educator and spend my days trying to teach honesty and integrity and=
th=3D
is
whole experience affected me deeply. =3DA0It's not a bad place (othe=
r tha=3D
n
the problems described), it's in a good neighborhood, close to a chu=
rch=3D
,
and pretty quiet with very nice neighbors. =3DA0But still, I want ou=
t in =3D
a
year or so.
Are there any consumer protection agencies for this sort of thing? =
=3DA0T=3D
here
are plenty of books out there on how to screw people over but nothin=
g f=3D
or
the person that gets screwed.
Any advice? =3DA0Should we just chisel out the cracks (steps, horizo=
ntal,=3D
and
vertical) and fill them with mortar as best we can? =3DA0I'm a handy=
guy =3D
but
know next to nothing about masonry.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.

I've been following this post for several days and have a couple of
thoughts. =3DA0It sounds like you've been had. =3DA0To make you whole=
you wi=3D
ll
probably need to litigate. =3DA0Take a set of good photos that illust=
rate =3D
the
problem(s). =3DA0Make the measurements suggested elsewhere to determi=
ne if=3D
the
walls are moving, and are now non-planar. =3DA0Find an attorney with =
a goo=3D
d
track record in this area, not one that a friend of a friend suggests=
. =3D
=3DA0Do
your homework and interview several. =3DA0You are hiring them as a
consultant...approach it that way.

A first order search could be done by using Martindale-Hubble
(www.martindale.com) =3DA0Talk with the attorney, ask him to suggest =
an
engineer. =3DA0The reason for this is that the attorney will know whi=
ch
engineer will provide the evaluation and opinion that is most likely =
to
aid you. =3DA0This may not be the same engineer you will use later to=
desi=3D
gn a
remedy, but the best engineer, complete with plastic pocket protector=
ma=3D
y
not be the one your attorney wants testifying.

If you can find an attorney who will take this (perhaps on contingenc=
y)
then have at the seller. =3DA0After you know what resources you have =
to fi=3D
x
the problem talk with a good engineer and perhaps a hydro-geologist i=
f
water is an issue. =3DA0Remember though that little can be accomplish=
ed to=3D

hold back water from the inside of the foundation. =3DA0Diversion of =
the w=3D
ater
from the outside is the most effective approach. =3DA0French drains, =
perim=3D
eter
drains at the level of the footings, etc. are most effective.

I'm an engineer who has worked with numerous attorneys as an expert
witness...we've never lost a case. =3DA0(I don't do it any more. =3DA=
0I'm
retired.) However, I feel quite confident when I say that as with any=

profession, 90% of the engineers and attorneys are not in the top 10%=
.
Choose carefully.

Boden

Boden,
Feel like coming out of retirement?
Seriously, thanks for the advice. =3DA0I hope I'm better at choosing =
an at=3D
torney
than I am at real estate agents and inspectors.
I'm concerned though, if I go with an experienced attorney that has b=
een=3D
in
the area for a while...he may know the seller. =3DA0The seller was a =
busin=3D
essman
in this area for almost forty years. =3DA0If I go with a young hot sh=
ot, h=3D
e/she
may lack experience. =3DA0Should I look for someone with a limited ar=
ea of=3D

expertise (including real estate) or one with a broader scope?
I will do my homework and take the measurements.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.
-Mac

I'd look for an attorney outside the town/city you live in. =3DA0Find o=
ut
where the court for your county is. =3DA0Look for an attorney in that c=
ity.
=3DA0 Some individual practitioners are very good, but the larger firms=
tend=3D

to have resources that may be useful. =3DA0The hourly cost is not as
important as the total cost. =3DA0I find that the more experienced folk=
s
often cost less at the end of the day. =3DA0Negotiate. =3DA0Contingency=
, fixed=3D

price, not to exceed, etc. =3DA0Attorneys are in business too.

Boden- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Before I get all lawyered up, I'd find out the total extent of the
problems, which no one knows at this point. =A0 =A0If you have only $5K i=
n
repairs, then small claims is likely going to be the best option.
It's very unlikely an attorney is going to take this kind of case on
contingency, unless the potential recovery is large. =A0Between
attorney's fees and expert witness fees, you have to make a rational
decision of what this could cost, vs what you MIGHT win. =A0 And then
there is the issue of collecting. =A0 Getting a judgement and collecting
are two different things.

I'd ask around for references for lawyers from people you know.

He can consult once with a lawyer about property matters in order to know =
what
the law is and requirements are w.r.t. disclosure. =A0He doesn't have to "=
lawyer
up" to gain benefit from legal advice.

Banty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes, many lawyers offer a free consultation. But you need to have
some common sense going into this. He doesn't even know the extent
of the problems. I'd concentrate on that before worrying about
choosing a lawyer. If he's out $2K, it's a whole different picture
than being out $50K. It's better he know which it is before he wastes
time with a lawyer based on hypotheticals.

Yep, I'd agree on that. Engineering analysis first, then legal stuff. The
legal stuff starting with a consultation.

It's a process to be taken one step at a time.

Banty

We're in central Illinois, if that helps.

"Una" wrote in message ...
Mac wrote:
Our buying agent was paid by the seller. We were assured that she
represented our best interests by law.

Sorry, no. "Your" agent was the showing agent, legally working for
the seller, and splitting the commission with the listing agent. A
buyer's agent is someone who contracts with the buyer, usually for
a flat fee (not a commission), to represent the buyer and only the
buyer. Unfortunately, many people who go around calling themselves
a buyer's agent are nothing of the kind: they are agents who are
not good enough at selling to have any listings of their own. They
survive by trying to be the first to show buyers a house, and then
they demand half of the commission if "their" buyer ends up buying
the house. Consequently, these agents are keen to show you lots of
houses, which impresses some buyers tremendously.

I spent a day with one of these agents, driving around to look at
houses I had researched, I had found driving directions to, etc.;
all this guy did was use his magic dongle to unlock the lock boxes
on the doors of unoccupied houses. I'd given him a list in advance
but he didn't bother to arrange for us to see any of the occupied
houses. I guess he figured a drive by would pass as first showing.
After that experience, I dealt only with the listing agent of each
house I looked at.

Una

Oh my gosh, we were warned NEVER to deal with the listing agent. Again,
live and learn. Next time, I'm doing my own inspection (along with the
required hired inspector), hiring a buyer's agent, and passing up any house
that won't let me get up on the roof (or at least a ladder), empty the
closets, and maybe camp-out in front for a day or two. Oh yeah, and I'll
pass on the third bedroom to get a my fireplace back.

On Jan 29, 1:23*am, (Una) wrote:
Mac wrote:
Our buying agent was paid by the seller. *We were assured that she
represented our best interests by law.

Sorry, no. *"Your" agent was the showing agent, legally working for
the seller, and splitting the commission with the listing agent. *A
buyer's agent is someone who contracts with the buyer, usually for
a flat fee (not a commission), to represent the buyer and only the
buyer. *Unfortunately, many people who go around calling themselves
a buyer's agent are nothing of the kind: *they are agents who are
not good enough at selling to have any listings of their own. *They
survive by trying to be the first to show buyers a house, and then
they demand half of the commission if "their" buyer ends up buying
the house. *Consequently, these agents are keen to show you lots of
houses, which impresses some buyers tremendously.

I spent a day with one of these agents, driving around to look at
houses I had researched, I had found driving directions to, etc.;
all this guy did was use his magic dongle to unlock the lock boxes
on the doors of unoccupied houses. *I'd given him a list in advance
but he didn't bother to arrange for us to see any of the occupied
houses. *I guess he figured a drive by would pass as first showing.
After that experience, I dealt only with the listing agent of each
house I looked at.

* * * * Una


This is just nonsense. A buyer's agent is typically compensated by
the seller. The seller has an agreement with the listing agent that
typically says that agency gets 6% when the house is sold. If a
second broker is involved on the buy side, then that agency splits
the commission and gets 3%. The agreement with the buyers agent
specifies that they have a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer, to
represent their interests, but may be paid a commission by the
seller. Unless you get into some strange arrangement, where you
yourself as buyer are going to pay an agent, that's how it works. And
since at 3% the agency gets $9K on a sale, how many real estate agents
are going to screw around with some reasonable low fee that the buyer
would pay? Answer: no good ones. How much would you personally pay
an agent?

Now, is that arrangement perfect? No, but it works provided you use
some common sense along the way.

By dealing with only the listing agent, you then get into dual agency
mode, where they represent both parties and keep the full 6%.

On Jan 29, 12:02*pm, "Mac" wrote:
"Una" wrote in ....
Mac wrote:
Our buying agent was paid by the seller. *We were assured that she
represented our best interests by law.

Sorry, no. *"Your" agent was the showing agent, legally working for
the seller, and splitting the commission with the listing agent. *A
buyer's agent is someone who contracts with the buyer, usually for
a flat fee (not a commission), to represent the buyer and only the
buyer. *Unfortunately, many people who go around calling themselves
a buyer's agent are nothing of the kind: *they are agents who are
not good enough at selling to have any listings of their own. *They
survive by trying to be the first to show buyers a house, and then
they demand half of the commission if "their" buyer ends up buying
the house. *Consequently, these agents are keen to show you lots of
houses, which impresses some buyers tremendously.

I spent a day with one of these agents, driving around to look at
houses I had researched, I had found driving directions to, etc.;
all this guy did was use his magic dongle to unlock the lock boxes
on the doors of unoccupied houses. *I'd given him a list in advance
but he didn't bother to arrange for us to see any of the occupied
houses. *I guess he figured a drive by would pass as first showing.
After that experience, I dealt only with the listing agent of each
house I looked at.

Una

Oh my gosh, we were warned NEVER to deal with the listing agent. *Again,
live and learn. *Next time, I'm doing my own inspection (along with the
required hired inspector), hiring a buyer's agent, and passing up any house
that won't let me get up on the roof (or at least a ladder), empty the
closets, and maybe camp-out in front for a day or two. *Oh yeah, and I'll
pass on the third bedroom to get a my fireplace back.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The problem is not as much as who you deal with as it is in knowing
who it is you are dealing with. I don't look to a real estate agent
for advice on how to fix foundation problems, how to get a loan, or
much of anything else, except maybe providing me with some comparable
sales data and serving as an intermediary. It's a lot easier to tell
a real estate agent that you think the kitchen sucks and the bathrooms
need to be remodeled and thats why your offer is what it is. They can
then take that to the seller and perhaps help explain that it isn't
unreasonable, that other similar houses do have better kitchens, etc.

I'd prefer to deal with only the listing agent. Why? Because they
have a 6% commission coming. With no other broker involved, if I make
a low offer, as part of the final negotiation, it's not unusual for
the listing agent to be willing to cut their commission to make the
deal happen. They can get 4 or 5% and still be better off than if
they had to hand 3% to another broker. Or they can get 3% and be no
worse off. What would they rather do? Kick in $5K in commission
cut that doesn't really cost them anything and have the deal done, or
work 6 more months trying to sell it, perhaps without success?

If you get a buyer's agent, they are typically going to be paid out of
that 6%, getting 3% They do have a fiduciary responsibility to
represent your interests. But, does that mean that you should tell
them the highest you will pay for a house they've found? I think
not. Unless you pay them by the hour, which I've never seen, they
still have an incentive to get the deal done and over with, don't they?

wrote:

SNIP HAPPENS

I'd prefer to deal with only the listing agent. Why? Because they
have a 6% commission coming. With no other broker involved, if I make
a low offer, as part of the final negotiation, it's not unusual for
the listing agent to be willing to cut their commission to make the
deal happen. They can get 4 or 5% and still be better off than if
they had to hand 3% to another broker. Or they can get 3% and be no
worse off. What would they rather do? Kick in $5K in commission
cut that doesn't really cost them anything and have the deal done, or
work 6 more months trying to sell it, perhaps without success?

If you get a buyer's agent, they are typically going to be paid out of
that 6%, getting 3% They do have a fiduciary responsibility to
represent your interests. But, does that mean that you should tell
them the highest you will pay for a house they've found? I think
not. Unless you pay them by the hour, which I've never seen, they
still have an incentive to get the deal done and over with, don't they?

Commission rates in the RE world, and the splits, are almost as opaque
as what goes on at a car dealership.

Around here (Portland, OR) the "common" residential commission charged
a seller is 7%. Everybroker save one charges that rate. Of course, its
not price fixing.
Yeah, right.

In the typical transaction, the listing agent and the selling agent are
not the same.
The listing agent and the selling agent frequently work for different
brokers.

In the typical transaction around here, the listing agent's broker gets
3 1/2% and
the selling agent's broker gets 3 1/2 %. The listing agent gets
whatever part of that
3 1/2 % that is in the employment contract between the broker and agent.
Usually
only 1% of the sale price, leaig the broker the "long piece" or 2 1/2 %
of the sale
price. A really reallysuccessful agent can sometimes get half of that 3
1/2 %, or 1.75%, which is .0175 of the sales price. Same split on the
selling agent / selling broker side of the transaction.

Around here, agents pay "desk rent" to broker to have an office and
phone / secretarial
support. Brokers will pay or ads for houses, sometimes to be reimbursed
through
sale proceeds.

Brokers around here take a few extra state licensing exams, have to have
larger
surety bonds, and as a practical matter have to have the capitol to
outfit big offices
and pay onging operating (electric, phone lines, office rent) expenses.

The money is in being a broker.

Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down here,
like the other night it was 61 degrees. A space heater helps but ducktape
takes less electricity.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:42:48 GMT, "Mac" wrote:

Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down here,
like the other night it was 61 degrees. A space heater helps but ducktape
takes less electricity.


I prefer Duct Tape over the Duck Tape.

Just my aged bias:-))


Oren
--

wrote:
This is just nonsense.

No, it is not nonsense. Just outside your own experience.

A buyer's agent is typically compensated by the seller.

Yes, and therein lies a built in conflict of interest, because it is
in all the agents' interests to obtain the highest possible purchase
price.

In any case, the devil is in the details. Apparently the OP signed
no agency agreement with "his" agent, so in some states his agent
would not be his however he says he is in Illinois. There, according
to http://www.illinoisrealtor.org/IAR/b...l/agency2.html ,
in his case a presumed agency may exist. Or not, depending on what
exacty "his" agent told him.

Una

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:23:04 GMT, (Una) wrote:

Or not, depending on what
exacty "his" agent told him.

OP has no Contract with his "agent".


Oren
--

"Mac" wrote in message news:s5Nnj.110$eg.97@trndny01...
Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down here,
like the other night it was 61 degrees. A space heater helps but ducktape
takes less electricity.

I dunno, but taping ducks to it might be pretty messy (grin).

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:48:51 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:


"Mac" wrote in message news:s5Nnj.110$eg.97@trndny01...
Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down here,
like the other night it was 61 degrees. A space heater helps but ducktape
takes less electricity.

I dunno, but taping ducks to it might be pretty messy (grin).

Not near as messy as installing a kaa-newt valve in a duck.

Essentially, it allows air out and prevents water from entering, after
the bird has landed on the lake.

YMMV!


Oren
--

"Oren" wrote

Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down
here,
I dunno, but taping ducks to it might be pretty messy (grin).

Not near as messy as installing a kaa-newt valve in a duck.

Essentially, it allows air out and prevents water from entering, after
the bird has landed on the lake.

A duck sized butt-plug? Expect you'd need a block both ways since he wants
to leave the duck taped there til it's warm. Humm, I vote to use something
other than a duck to jam in the cracks as exploding duck might be pretty
nasty.

Oh yeah, you guys are hilarious! Actually, "ducttape" just didn't look
right. Heck, nobody uses it for ducts anymore. My brother calls it rock
and roll tape. My daughter calls it miracle clothing mender tape.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:05:09 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"Oren" wrote

Can I ducktape over the cracks for a few months? It's freezing down
here,
I dunno, but taping ducks to it might be pretty messy (grin).

Not near as messy as installing a kaa-newt valve in a duck.

Essentially, it allows air out and prevents water from entering, after
the bird has landed on the lake.

A duck sized butt-plug? Expect you'd need a block both ways since he wants
to leave the duck taped there til it's warm. Humm, I vote to use something
other than a duck to jam in the cracks as exploding duck might be pretty
nasty.


Yes!. Be patient, Spring is here soon. A little paper or foam stuffed
into a severe crack will reduce leakage - maybe!

No expense for the ducks.

Oren
--

"cshenk" wrote in message
...

"Mac" wrote in message
news:fexnj.3944$ZO5.2798@trnddc03...
Good point. Although they did know enough to "try" and repair some of
the cracks.

Thats doesnt mean much. They could genuinely have thought it was cosmetic
and made cosmetic repairs. You'd have to be able to 'prove' otherwise.

Case in point. I just spent 750$ on a plummer. I split pipes in the cold
due to a defective pipe heater that may have been as much as 20 years old.
The real reason is the roof area it lead to was totally uninsulated yet
that was hidden by a solid plywood 'roof' so no one knew except the
origional owner that he'd installed itt hat way. I am the 3rd owner than
the 2nd one would not have known it either. Both me and the one I bought
from knew there was a pipe heater and to plug it in, but neither knew
there was zero insulation up there.


Just found this on the Illinois Association of Realtors website:

"The Real Property Disclosure Report form is a series of questions intended
to have the homeseller disclose any known material defects about the
property. Under the Act, a material defect is defined as a condition that
would have a substantial adverse effect on the value of the residential real
property".

Of course I guess they could claim that they didn't know the cracks would
affect the value of the house, but knowing what this man used to do for a
living, I'd have to say that's improbable, (I just don't feel right posting
it online).

Also:

"The seller and the seller alone is responsible for completing the
disclosure form and shall be responsible for honestly disclosing only those
matters of which the seller has knowledge".

He knew.

"Mac" wrote in message
news:qYRnj.3740$9g.3446@trndny07...
Oh yeah, you guys are hilarious! Actually, "ducttape" just didn't look
right. Heck, nobody uses it for ducts anymore. My brother calls it rock
and roll tape. My daughter calls it miracle clothing mender tape.

Yeah, we are evil. Now talking butt-plugs for ducks grin.

Now seriously, I dont have a good grasp of the gaps. Are you saying you can
see outside from them so your basement is 'above ground' at that spot?
Trying to seal that temp to keep the warm air in the house?

Had a house in Charlottesville VA where the front portion of the basement
was flush to the ground but the yard sloped so at the back it was above
ground. Is yours kinda like that?

If you need a simple and easy 'fast fix' for heating cost reasons, there's
this stuff (blueboard I think they call it) which comes in big sheets and
you can cut it with a pair of heavy scizzors. It's often used as water and
heat barrier under vinyl siding. It looks like a sort of thin somewhat
flexible foamy styrofoam sort of thing at about 1/3 inch thick and comes in
sheets about the size of drywall.

You wont be wasting money by temp putting some of that up as it's going to
be resusable later even if you cut it up a bit. (you can even duct tape the
parts together later to make it back to a solid sheet for interior
insulation).

On Jan 29, 7:23 pm, (Una) wrote:
wrote:
This is just nonsense.

No, it is not nonsense. Just outside your own experience.

A buyer's agent is typically compensated by the seller.

Yes, and therein lies a built in conflict of interest, because it is
in all the agents' interests to obtain the highest possible purchase
price.


Let's see. I'm the buy side agent and the asking price is $200K.
That means my agency gets $6K and I personally may get $2500. Now,
what's in my best interest? To screw around getting $200K instead of
$190K? Let's see, that works out to a whopping difference of $125 in
my pocket. Big deal. In reality, the real motivation is to get the
deal done quickly. Same thing on the sell side. You think the
selling agent wants to screw around and lose a deal over an
insignificant change in their commission because the house sells for
$190K instead of $200K?

As I said, unless you're paying your agent by the hour, a similar
conflict of interest is there regardless of who pays the agent. And
in my experience, as follows is how it works when someone uses a
buyer's agent. A buyer who wants to use a buyers agent signs an
agreement with that agent that spells out the agents fiduciary
responsibility to the buyer. They are there to represent the
interests of the buyer, not seller. It also spells out that they
may be compensated by the seller, which is what normally happens. On
a listed property, they wind up splitting the 6% commission, 3% to
selling agency, 3% to buying agency, part of that in turn to
individual broker. Now, is that system perfect? No, but it's what's
commonly done.

I'd be happy to hear exactly how you've seen buyer's agents
relationships done and how they get compensated following the above
example. Meaning the available house is listed by the seller with
some other agent, buyer retains a buyers agent. Who pays who what?




In any case, the devil is in the details. Apparently the OP signed
no agency agreement with "his" agent, so in some states his agent
would not be his however he says he is in Illinois. There, according
tohttp://www.illinoisrealtor.org/IAR/buy_sell/legal/agency2.html,
in his case a presumed agency may exist. Or not, depending on what
exacty "his" agent told him.


No, it doesn't depend on what his agent told him. The Illinois law is
clear that unless he has in writing otherwise, his agent does in fact
have a legal, binding, fiduciary responsibility to him, not the
seller.

http://www.illinoisrealtor.org/IAR/b...l/agency2.html

Agency
A legal framework that allows a person to act through a
representative. Common examples include

o An attorney representing you in a business transaction

o A stock broker buying and selling investments on your behalf

o A real estate broker assisting you in buying, selling or leasing
real estate

Under the Act, your real estate agent will owe you certain statutory
duties that are similar to fiduciary agency duties.

Designated Agency in Illinois Real Estate Transactions
An arrangement where one or more agents from a real estate brokerage
company are appointed as your legal/designated agent.
You will be presumed to be represented by the real estate agent you
are working with unless you have a written agreement otherwise

Other associates in the brokerage firm may be designated agents for
other buyers or sellers and may be the legal agent of the opposite
party in your transaction

Even though your brokerage agreement will be with the real estate
brokerage company, you will have a designated agent(s) to act on your
behalf

Designated Agency Duties under the Act
Perform according to the terms of your agency agreement. Promote your
best interests as follows:
o Seeking a transaction that meets the terms of your agency
agreement or that is otherwise acceptable to you

o Presenting all offers to you and from you unless you direct your
agent otherwise

o Disclosing material facts about the transaction that the agent
actually knows about and the information is not confidential to
someone else

NOTE: Material facts will typically not include information related
to property that is not the subject of the transaction, that is a fact
situation not related to the subject property or occurrences related
to the subject property

o Accounting for all money/property received from you or for your
benefit

o Obeying your lawful instructions

o Promoting your best interests above the agent's or someone else's
best interests

Exercise reasonable skill and care in performing brokerage services

Keeping your confidential information confidential

Complying with the Act and other laws that might apply i.e. fair
housing and civil rights statutes

Mac wrote:
Oh yeah, you guys are hilarious! Actually, "ducttape" just didn't look
right. Heck, nobody uses it for ducts anymore. My brother calls it rock
and roll tape. My daughter calls it miracle clothing mender tape.

In the military it is "100 mile an hour" tape.

--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200801/1

INSPECTOR via HomeKB.com wrote:
Mac wrote:
Oh yeah, you guys are hilarious! Actually, "ducttape" just didn't look
right. Heck, nobody uses it for ducts anymore. My brother calls it rock
and roll tape. My daughter calls it miracle clothing mender tape.

In the military it is "100 mile an hour" tape.

Is it time for the annual 'duct tape thread' again, already?


aem sends...

Yeah, sorry. One of the cracks is from the window well to the floor (a step
crack) and I can actually see light through the crack up near the window
well. Cold air comes in through there like crazy. But I could swear I feel
cold air from the below-ground horizontal crack as well.
Is it okay if I ignore the whole butt-plug conversation? Lol.

"Mac" wrote in message
news:auaoj.2084$fg.496@trndny03...
Yeah, sorry. One of the cracks is from the window well to the floor (a
step crack) and I can actually see light through the crack up near the
window well. Cold air comes in through there like crazy. But I could
swear I feel cold air from the below-ground horizontal crack as well.
Is it okay if I ignore the whole butt-plug conversation? Lol.

Ok, I'd get that blue stuff then, a sheet or so, and tuck that up there for
now to save on heating bills. Then, wait to see what the contractor says.

On Jan 28, 8:41 am, wrote:
On Jan 27, 12:28 pm, Big_Jake wrote:

We are landlords and manage a house similar in age to what you have,
with very similar issues. The owners successfully sued the seller of
the property and are waiting for the Spring thaw to get started on the
work, which is going to cost about $15K. The court case took about 18
months. Here are some thoughts:

I'm just curious as to the definition of success. The repairs are
going to cost $15K. Unless the buyer was awarded attorney's fees,
which I don't believe is usual, then the buyer had to pay an attorney
to pursue a case that took 18 months. Around here, that would have
consumed most, if not all of the $15K. Which is why it doesn't make
sense, unless the amount is a lot larger, especially considering you
could spend a lot on legal fees, expert testimony, etc, and still
lose.


This wasn't a skyscraper, it was an 860 sf house. Expert testimony
cost less than $700, and the attorney's fees were less than $3K. In
the end, they settled and dismissed the case. I believe that their
attorney's fees were part of the settlement. I don't know where you
live, but in civil cases where I am, in WI, the loser often has to pay
the winner's attorney's fees.

JK

On Feb 1, 10:45*am, Big_Jake wrote:
On Jan 28, 8:41 am, wrote:





On Jan 27, 12:28 pm, Big_Jake wrote:

We are landlords and manage a house similar in age to what you have,
with very similar issues. *The owners successfully sued the seller of
the property and are waiting for the Spring thaw to get started on the
work, which is going to cost about $15K. *The court case took about 18
months. *Here are some thoughts:

I'm just curious as to the definition of success. * The repairs are
going to cost $15K. *Unless the buyer was awarded attorney's fees,
which I don't believe is usual, then the buyer had to pay an attorney
to pursue a case that took 18 months. * *Around here, that would have
consumed most, if not all of the $15K. * Which is why it doesn't make
sense, unless the amount is a lot larger, especially considering you
could spend a lot on legal fees, expert testimony, etc, and still
lose.

This wasn't a skyscraper, it was an 860 sf house. *Expert testimony
cost less than $700, and the attorney's fees were less than $3K. *In
the end, they settled and dismissed the case. *I believe that their
attorney's fees were part of the settlement. *I don't know where you
live, but in civil cases where I am, in WI, the loser often has to pay
the winner's attorney's fees.



Settling out of court is a bit different than going to trial. You
said it spent 18 months in court, which I took to mean it was resolved
in court with an actual verdict.

Those fees are pretty modest. It's not a skyscraper, but expert
testimony for court action doesn't come cheap. $700 sounds about
right for a simple written report. But if it had not been settled,
the expert has to spend hours to get deposed, hours to attend court
for a morning to testify, including things like travel time, it would
be a lot higher. And the legal fees for an actual trial are going to
be a lot higher as well.

Keep in mind the award of legal fees in a case like this, even in
states where it happens, is a very double edged sword. If you LOSE,
you pay their costs, which, depending on who you're fighting, like a
big insurance company for example, could be huge. Which is one reason
many states don't have this policy.

So, spending $3700 more to try recover $15K, doesn't necessarily sound
like a great idea to me. I guess if you really believe you have a
slam dunk case, it could make sense. Personally, depending on the
limit for small claims, I think I'd go there and receive maybe a max
of $5k if you win, without the expenses if you lose.

On Jan 27, 2:03*pm, "Mac" wrote:
This sounds intruiging. *How would one go about looking into a seller's
insurance claims?

Your attorney can do it