Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

Not what you're looking for, but...

I'm a home owner, not a contractor, and just had some boxes relocated in
kitchen remodel. In my normal business one thing I do is wire control
panels and this kitchen job was not any more difficult.

In my case, the reason I hired electricians (not from the phone book -
referred by a respected carpenter) is because they do this every day,
their work is inspected and they know the latest code. I didn't want to
miss something that they would pick up. I would have spent more time
looking for parts at Home Depot, finding out they're wrong, returning
parts, etc., etc.... than the 2 hours it took them to do all the work.

Also, the non-electrical things I learned from them making suggestions
about the remodeling was worth the $$.

Sam

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

Probably for the same reason I don't bring my car to the Chiropractor for
repair. Some fields are pretty specialized, and the best job is achieved by
people who do it every day, not someone who dabbles. Also electrical
contractors are generally licensed and insured to do that type of work



"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary
circuits have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It
seems like the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up
the electrical boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices.
Then why do general contractors don't do that part themselves but
still subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand
that they pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have
been more profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing?

The lack of a license.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

one word , Licensing, the general probably isnt licensed to do lectrical work

Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits‰have
been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems likeŸthe rest is the
easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches,
and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part
themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I
understand that theyãpass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have
been moreñprofitable to it themselves.What am I missing? I feel like there
must be something about it that's}not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been
adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that
myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry.
Perhaps it's theÕregulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.
~Aaron

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

From the homeowner's point of view -- (a) There's probably enough to do that
a professional electrician will be able to do it faster and not interfere
with other trades, so the manhour cost may not be much different, and (b)
besides what everyone else has said, warranty. If something breaks or goes
wrong after installation the contractor doesn't want to be the one who has
to go back and fix it -- the sub will take care of it.

On Dec 18, 6:57 am, "JimR" wrote:
"Aaron Fude" wrote in message

...



Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

From the homeowner's point of view -- (a) There's probably enough to do that
a professional electrician will be able to do it faster and not interfere
with other trades, so the manhour cost may not be much different, and (b)
besides what everyone else has said, warranty. If something breaks or goes
wrong after installation the contractor doesn't want to be the one who has
to go back and fix it -- the sub will take care of it.

Here in MN, electrical work MUST be done by either the homeowner or a
licensed electrician.license to do electrical work.

"marson" wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 6:57 am, "JimR" wrote:
"Aaron Fude" wrote in message

...



Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

From the homeowner's point of view -- (a) There's probably enough to do
that
a professional electrician will be able to do it faster and not interfere
with other trades, so the manhour cost may not be much different, and (b)
besides what everyone else has said, warranty. If something breaks or
goes
wrong after installation the contractor doesn't want to be the one who
has
to go back and fix it -- the sub will take care of it.

Here in MN, electrical work MUST be done by either the homeowner or a
licensed electrician.license to do electrical work.

Here in Ontario, Canada it is illegal for anyone to sell electrical work if
the person installing the electrical work does not have an electrician's
licence which takes 5 years to obtain. An unlicensed person may do their own
electrical work but not work as an electrician.

On Dec 18, 8:40 am, Steve wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote on 18 Dec 2007 in group
alt.home.repair:

Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary
circuits have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It
seems like the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up
the electrical boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices.
Then why do general contractors don't do that part themselves but
still subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand
that they pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have
been more profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing?

The lack of a license.

And insurance. As a handyman, my business insurance specifically prohibits
me from doing electrical installation, which requires a license. I can do
repairs and fixture installs, but not installation of new lines and boxes.

--
Steve B.
New Life Home Improvement

I agree the insurance is the main reason. If you are not licensed the
insurance does not cover it and if something happened with your house
they will not pay.
http://www.planorealestateadvisor.com

Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

Aaron
The reason is really quite simple. Not all of the electrical work for a
kitchen is as simple as you suppose it is. The general contractors
insurance policy specifically excludes any coverage of work for which
the insured does not hold the proper license. Since keeping up with one
industry is enough for most contractors to do well, the smart ones
stick with the craft that they already know and bring in the specialist
to do the others. Kitchens can involve multiwire branch circuits,
120/240 volt appliances 240 volt appliances, automatic switching
circuits, safety interlocks, and the list goes on. I'm often called in
by general contractors after the residential wireman on the job has
given up on the controls for a two part refrigeration system or other
only slightly esoteric assembly. Even though it is certainly within the
mental capacity of any successful general contractor to manage all of
those details the real cost of maintaining the necessary licenses and
insurance coverage to engage in the additional work is sufficient
deterrent to most.
--
Tom Horne

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

Fixing outlets and wiring a house are worlds apart. Just as fixing an under
the counter pipe and plumbing a slab before it's poured.

I just helped my union electrician friend wire an addition I'm doing. I was
amazed after thinking it wasn't that hard. Well, it really ISN'T that hard,
but if you get it wrong, the place may burn down or someone may die. And he
was trying to explain as he went, but he was speaking Greek to me. Think of
it. You just got the studs, and you want THAT lamp to light from these
three switches, but not those two. And you need to know if you can safely
run two more outlets on this piece of Romex, or do you need to drag another
length from the panel.

If a contractor has a problem with a licensed electrician, no problem.
Phone call, and the man makes it right. If he doesn't, the contractor makes
a complaint, has the work done, charges it to the electrician's surety bond,
and goes on his way. Unless the guy isn't licensed, and then depending on
the state, he's in trouble. Some states have made it a felony to contract
without a license they got so tired of yokels doing shoddy work.

Many times contractors have favorites. And it's not usually a
brother-in-law. It's a guy that the contractor knows will get in and out
for a good price, and no questions asked if there's a problem. But, since
the guys are usually pretty good, there's hardly any problems, and if they
are, they are small.

One less headache for the contractor. Oh yeah, he'll add about 20% to what
the electrician charges.

Steve

On Dec 18, 4:11 am, Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more
profitable to it themselves.

What am I missing? I feel like there must be something about it that's
not easy that I'm not seeing. I've been adding electrical outlets and
installing fixtures and doing stuff like that myself since I bought
the house and it's certainly easier than carpentry. Perhaps it's the
regulations? Anyway, please let me know what you think.

Aaron

In a word liability.

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 01:11:48 -0800 (PST), Aaron Fude wrote:
Suppose you are remodeling your kitchen and all the necessary circuits
have been run from the electrical box to the kitchen. It seems like
the rest is the easiest part of the project: setting up the electrical
boxes and the switches, and connecting the devices. Then why do
general contractors don't do that part themselves but still
subcontract it out to the pricey electricians? I understand that they
pass that cost to the homeowner, but still it would have been more

You're joking, right?

What's your next question?
Why do contractors buy lumber instead of cutting down trees and running
a sawmill in the backyard?

Hi,

Thanks for all the responses. What I was really getting at is whether
I should do it myself and what I've gathered from the responses is:
yes, I should.

Here's my situation. I realize that this will take me a week (or two!)
where it would take a professional electrician a day and a half. And I
may/will make mistakes. These are the cons.

But the pros are these:

1. I really enjoy it.
2. I save $3000, at least.
3. I will have a licensed electrician inspect my work for about $70.
(So make that savings of $3000 - 2*$70, since I'm sure there will be
mistakes to correct and the inspection will have to take place twice.)
I've had two electricians say that they would do this for me...

(Also, what's pushing me towards doing it myself is my general
frustration with tradesmen these days. I've had eight electricians
come to visit me. All but one were late by at least 30 minutes. Six
canceled the first appointment, four the first two. Two plumb forgot
to show up and apologized profusely. Several told me outright or
implied that whether or not I get my own fixtures, they will charge me
the contractor's markup. Six of eight are yet to provide a quote, and
it's been at least three weeks. Seven used the phase "I'm a very
honest guy" - something I'm profoundly allergic to. Five told me that
I'm in "desperate need of upgrading to 200Amps", three told me that I
have "plenty of amps coming in". All eight have stated that the job
may cost more if there are unforseen problems, but not less if it
turns out simpler than expected. All eight were recommended by
someone.) Would you like to hear my plumber stories?

On Dec 19, 2:10 am, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Thanks for all the responses. What I was really getting at is whether
I should do it myself and what I've gathered from the responses is:
yes, I should.

Here's my situation. I realize that this will take me a week (or two!)
where it would take a professional electrician a day and a half. And I
may/will make mistakes. These are the cons.

But the pros are these:

1. I really enjoy it.
2. I save $3000, at least.
3. I will have a licensed electrician inspect my work for about $70.
(So make that savings of $3000 - 2*$70, since I'm sure there will be
mistakes to correct and the inspection will have to take place twice.)
I've had two electricians say that they would do this for me...

(Also, what's pushing me towards doing it myself is my general
frustration with tradesmen these days. I've had eight electricians
come to visit me.

Eight is an absurdly large number IMO. Are you price shopping or
what?

All but one were late by at least 30 minutes. Six
canceled the first appointment, four the first two. Two plumb forgot
to show up and apologized profusely.

Perhaps they smell a PITA customer.


Several told me outright or
implied that whether or not I get my own fixtures, they will charge me
the contractor's markup.

What is wrong with that? Do you think they shouldn't profit from your
small job? Plus, using homeowner supplied fixtures can lead to
problems. Wrong fixtures, missing fixtures, etc. What if a fixture
is defective? Are you prepared to pay the electrician all the
screwing around he has to do to figure it out etc.



Five told me that
I'm in "desperate need of upgrading to 200Amps", three told me that I
have "plenty of amps coming in".

Not necessarily contradictory. Sometimes you can have enough amps
with a 100 amp panel but not enough slots for new circuits.

All eight have stated that the job
may cost more if there are unforseen problems, but not less if it
turns out simpler than expected. All eight were recommended by
someone.) Would you like to hear my plumber stories?

If you are building the Taj Mahal, you have some negotiating power.
You have a small job and you are being a pill. Call a few
electricians, find one who you feel in your gut you can trust, tell
them to get er done and send the bill.

In article
,
Aaron Fude wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for all the responses. What I was really getting at is whether
I should do it myself and what I've gathered from the responses is:
yes, I should.

Here's my situation. I realize that this will take me a week (or two!)
where it would take a professional electrician a day and a half. And I
may/will make mistakes. These are the cons.

But the pros are these:

1. I really enjoy it.
2. I save $3000, at least.
3. I will have a licensed electrician inspect my work for about $70.
(So make that savings of $3000 - 2*$70, since I'm sure there will be
mistakes to correct and the inspection will have to take place twice.)
I've had two electricians say that they would do this for me...

(Also, what's pushing me towards doing it myself is my general
frustration with tradesmen these days. I've had eight electricians
come to visit me. All but one were late by at least 30 minutes. Six
canceled the first appointment, four the first two. Two plumb forgot
to show up and apologized profusely. Several told me outright or
implied that whether or not I get my own fixtures, they will charge me
the contractor's markup. Six of eight are yet to provide a quote, and
it's been at least three weeks. Seven used the phase "I'm a very
honest guy" - something I'm profoundly allergic to. Five told me that
I'm in "desperate need of upgrading to 200Amps", three told me that I
have "plenty of amps coming in". All eight have stated that the job
may cost more if there are unforseen problems, but not less if it
turns out simpler than expected. All eight were recommended by
someone.) Would you like to hear my plumber stories?

The tradesmen in the group will not be sympathetic to your plight, but I
am. Almost every contractor, car mechanic, etc. is either incompetent,
or dishonest, or both. It took me many years, and many frustrations, but
I now have an electrician, a plumber, a drywall guy, a competent and
honest mechanic, and even a woman who knows how to cut my hair so that
my g.f. doesn't mistake me for Frankenstein's monster.

If you want to find the good people, step one is to cross out everyone
who's got an ad in the yellow pages. The good people don't need one.
That said, it's a numbers game. You either do everything yourself, or
you keep getting screwed until you find the right people.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:10:50 -0800 (PST), Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Thanks for all the responses. What I was really getting at is whether
I should do it myself and what I've gathered from the responses is:
yes, I should.

Here's my situation. I realize that this will take me a week (or two!)
where it would take a professional electrician a day and a half. And I
may/will make mistakes. These are the cons.

But the pros are these:

1. I really enjoy it.
2. I save $3000, at least.
3. I will have a licensed electrician inspect my work for about $70.
(So make that savings of $3000 - 2*$70, since I'm sure there will be
mistakes to correct and the inspection will have to take place twice.)
I've had two electricians say that they would do this for me...


Don't bother with the electrician unless the person is somebody you know
well. There is too much of an incentive for the electrician to spin a tale
of thousands of dollars of work that is needed to bring it up to code.


If you know what you're doing, then pull a permit, do the work yourself,
and let the city do the inspection. They're going to anyway.

AZ Nomad wrote in message
...
[snip]
If you know what you're doing, then pull a permit, do
the work yourself, and let the city do the inspection.
They're going to anyway.

That's what I did and it worked out better than I thought. The
inspectors (there were three in the dept.) checked my progress
throughout my remodel and each found minor areas that needed
attention. It saved me several thousand in labor _and_ a bottle of
Kay-yoa and a few rolls of Rolaids.

Good luck with it.

The Ranger

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:40:47 -0800, The Ranger wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote in message
...
[snip]
If you know what you're doing, then pull a permit, do
the work yourself, and let the city do the inspection.
They're going to anyway.

That's what I did and it worked out better than I thought. The
inspectors (there were three in the dept.) checked my progress
throughout my remodel and each found minor areas that needed
attention. It saved me several thousand in labor _and_ a bottle of
Kay-yoa and a few rolls of Rolaids.

Good luck with it.

I had a house in the 90's that had the feed into the electrical panel burn
out after about 5 months of ownership. One of the 220 feeds was loose and
the resistance caused it to get hot enough to take out the terminal.

Called an electrician and he told me that because of a "flat roof" over the
rear patio under wire from telephone pole, the pole for the incoming wire had to be
raised 6 feet. He said that the ground at the panel had to be made to
plumbing and that he'd have to run a wire around the garage to the water feed
for the house. And of course, a new panel. $3500.

Then I remembered about a home warranty that came with the house. Called
them and they sent an electrician who replaced the panel, and who drove in a
new ground rod in the ground outside behind the panel. The bill he submitted
was about $750. Inspectors came and liked the job. Said the ground was
perfect. Didn't say anything about the wire feed pole.

Electricians are in the same group as plumbers, garage door repairmen, and
car mechanics. Most are OK; but there are some bad ones out there who selfishly
try to get away with anything they can. There are also whole companies that have
policies equal to the worst of them. Do any of those garage door repair
companies starting with the letter A use the same company for a whole two
years? I have a hunch that they reincorporate on a yearly basis to avoid
warranty claims.

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the responses. What I was really getting at is whether
I should do it myself and what I've gathered from the responses is:
yes, I should.

Here's my situation. I realize that this will take me a week (or two!)
where it would take a professional electrician a day and a half. And I
may/will make mistakes. These are the cons.

But the pros are these:

1. I really enjoy it.
2. I save $3000, at least.
3. I will have a licensed electrician inspect my work for about $70.
(So make that savings of $3000 - 2*$70, since I'm sure there will be
mistakes to correct and the inspection will have to take place twice.)
I've had two electricians say that they would do this for me...

(Also, what's pushing me towards doing it myself is my general
frustration with tradesmen these days. I've had eight electricians
come to visit me. All but one were late by at least 30 minutes. Six
canceled the first appointment, four the first two. Two plumb forgot
to show up and apologized profusely. Several told me outright or
implied that whether or not I get my own fixtures, they will charge me
the contractor's markup. Six of eight are yet to provide a quote, and
it's been at least three weeks. Seven used the phase "I'm a very
honest guy" - something I'm profoundly allergic to. Five told me that
I'm in "desperate need of upgrading to 200Amps", three told me that I
have "plenty of amps coming in". All eight have stated that the job
may cost more if there are unforseen problems, but not less if it
turns out simpler than expected. All eight were recommended by
someone.) Would you like to hear my plumber stories?

Nope. Sounds like you got it all figured out and already know everything.
Go for it.

Steve