Steve Barker LT wrote:
It's a fairly useful definition. Real diesels don't have precombustion
chambers and therefore don't NEED any glow plugs. The precombustion chamber
makes for a quieter engine. And Gawd knows we wouldn't want to hear the
engine running nowadays.
....

I don't know what it's of use for is the deal. Torque, hp, fuel
consumption, etc., are useful categorizations but I don't see the deal
on some artificial "real" vis a vis "not real".

And, certainly, after 12-14 hour days on tractor or combine in the
field, any more diesel noise than mandatory is certainly not anything I
count as a blessing...

--

On Oct 17, 4:09 pm, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:
That hardly counts as a diesel having glow or spark plugs.

s

"Harry K" wrote in message

oups.com...





Oh? Never saw the older ones? International TD series had a full
gas system that they started on, carb, plugs, everything, using the
same engine. Cat used a gas pony engine. I spent enough hours
cranking them. Don't know how far they went before the glow plug
system came into use.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But it did back then. Those were the early days and my statement,
'except for starting', was accurate. The ones I referred to were
built in the 30s and 40s. I don't know if the TD series continued
that wierd starting system into the 50s.

I _really_ learned about how high comprression was on diesels the
morning I grabbed the crank on the TD6 and almost drove my ankles into
the ground. It was like hitting a solid block of iron. The
decompression link had come adrift.

Harry K

Kinda like trying to pull my john deere through without opening the
compression relief's.

s


"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

I _really_ learned about how high comprression was on diesels the
morning I grabbed the crank on the TD6 and almost drove my ankles into
the ground. It was like hitting a solid block of iron. The
decompression link had come adrift.

Harry K

George wrote:

Diesels never have spark plugs.

Spark-converted diesels do. This is a diesel engine burning natural or
other fuel gas. The mixture is so lean it withstands the typical diesel
heat of compression and doesn't ignite until sparked. Or they can leave
the oil injection system in place and inject a small amount as a pilot to
trigger combustion. In the latter case such engines are often designed to
be able to up the amount of liquid fuel injected to normal levels while the
gaseous fuel is turned off in which case it's known as a dual fuel engine.

Purists will maintain that if a spark ignition system replaces the fuel
injection system then it's no longer a diesel. The problem with that is
that words mean what the majority says they mean. I can say that a single
"D" power cell is never by itself a "battery" but it's a lost cause.

Further, the definition of diesel as being an engine using the heat of
compression for ignition has not always been the case either. There was a
time when folks thought "Diesel" (it was usually capitalized in those days)
referred to an compression-ignition engine using high pressure air for
injection. Engines using "solid injection" as came to be standard were
known as "oil engines." You'll see pictures of some early Diesel
locomotives which say on their sides, "OIL ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVE." Gradually
it was recognized that Dr. Diesel's big innovation was compression
ignition, not how fuel injection was done (or even what was injected...his
first experiment used coal dust!). My point here is simply that the
definition has been and is flexible. With that in mind, yes, sometimes
diesels have spark plugs.

On Oct 17, 9:00 am, George wrote:
Harry K wrote:

I see that you have the explanation how they work. I apologize for
the 'rtfm' comment. Thinking back I was in the same position when
someone told me that diesel engines don't have spark plugs...well, not
after they are running at least.

Harry K

Diesels never have spark plugs. Some designs use glow plugs which are
actually just a little heating element to preheat the combustion chamber
. Some designs have a heating element in a box in the intake which warms
the air before starting.

Its the heat of compression that fires a diesel. If the weather is warm
or you had a sufficiently beefy starter you could start one without glow
plugs.

You should have learned not to say 'always' or 'never'. Back in the
early days, the McCormick Deering (later International) all had spark
plugs for starting. They started on gas to warm up then changed over
to diesel. You can google International TD6 (for one) or Mc Deering
T20 for another. Those were in the 30s and 40s which is when I was
referring to.

Yes, before you go off on a tangent, the plugs were in the same
cylinders. There was a compression release that had to be set as part
of the starting procedure.

Technology moved on using first glow plugs and then nothign at all in
many cases.

Harry K

on 10/19/2007 1:11 PM Harry K said the following:
On Oct 17, 9:00 am, George wrote:

Harry K wrote:


I see that you have the explanation how they work. I apologize for
the 'rtfm' comment. Thinking back I was in the same position when
someone told me that diesel engines don't have spark plugs...well, not
after they are running at least.

Harry K

Diesels never have spark plugs. Some designs use glow plugs which are
actually just a little heating element to preheat the combustion chamber
. Some designs have a heating element in a box in the intake which warms
the air before starting.

Its the heat of compression that fires a diesel. If the weather is warm
or you had a sufficiently beefy starter you could start one without glow
plugs.


You should have learned not to say 'always' or 'never'.

Always remember never to say 'always' or 'never'.

Back in the
early days, the McCormick Deering (later International) all had spark
plugs for starting. They started on gas to warm up then changed over
to diesel. You can google International TD6 (for one) or Mc Deering
T20 for another. Those were in the 30s and 40s which is when I was
referring to.

Yes, before you go off on a tangent, the plugs were in the same
cylinders. There was a compression release that had to be set as part
of the starting procedure.

Technology moved on using first glow plugs and then nothign at all in
many cases.

Harry K




--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @