Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?

Thanks!

h wrote:
"Javier" wrote in message
...
Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?

Thanks!

??? Never heard that before. I've had a water softener for 20+ years, and my
septic system has never had a problem.

The only concern (other than by those promoting a "solution") I'm really
aware of is the additional water volume may be a problem for a marginal
system.

Here's a link to a U of MN site that's pretty informative...

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/components/6583-04.html

--

dqb,

I presume that Javier fears that the brine that used to recharge the
resin tank may be too salty for the septic system. I don't think that's ever
been the case. He should check the size of his septic tank. As for the leach
field, the softened water that goes through the septic tank and the brine
both contain sodium chloride which may accumulate in the leach field. This
salt eventually gets washed away by rain. I guess it's possible during a
drought for enough salt to build up to stress the grass a bit. Never heard
of this though.

Dave M.

On Sep 2, 7:11 am, Javier wrote:
Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?

Thanks!


I have water that is between 26 and 30g hardness and I have a septic
system. I've read many studies that tried to determine if the effluent
(waste) that is the result of regeneration of a water softener causes
damage to septic systems. None of the studies that I found and read
concluded that the waste harmed the septic tank or the septic process
with softeners using either NaCl or KCl.

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain. A properly sized and set up single resin tank
softener should regenerate every 7 or 8 days. If your softener is
regenerating more often then it is undersized and wasting salt and
water.

Twin resin tank softeners may regenerate more often

Meat Plow wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, Javier wrote:

Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?


Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Right, thus my post. Can you recommend any alternatives?

In article , Javier says...

Meat Plow wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:11:20 -0400, Javier wrote:

Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?


Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Right, thus my post. Can you recommend any alternatives?

I have a septic tank and a water softener - the discharge goes to my sump pump
well.

Banty

In article . com,
says...

On Sep 2, 7:11 am, Javier wrote:
Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?

Thanks!


I have water that is between 26 and 30g hardness and I have a septic
system. I've read many studies that tried to determine if the effluent
(waste) that is the result of regeneration of a water softener causes
damage to septic systems. None of the studies that I found and read
concluded that the waste harmed the septic tank or the septic process
with softeners using either NaCl or KCl.

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain. A properly sized and set up single resin tank
softener should regenerate every 7 or 8 days. If your softener is
regenerating more often then it is undersized and wasting salt and
water.

Twin resin tank softeners may regenerate more often


Is there any damage to a submersible sump pump?

Banty

Meat Plow wrote:

Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

wrote:

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain.

I have a friend who did that and regrets it. The brine quickly plugged up his
dry well.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

On Sep 4, 8:26 am, Rick Blaine wrote:
wrote:
Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain.

I have a friend who did that and regrets it. The brine quickly plugged up his
dry well.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

French drain (dry well) is required here and mine has been working
perfectly for 12 years. Guess we're just lucky here and everywhere
else it is required.

Perhaps your friend's softener is not set up as efficently as possible
and using more salt than necessary. Your friend's softener may be
undersized and regenerating more often than necessary, which is
(unfortunately) far too common, which would increase the softener
effluent dramatically.

Either way, the softener effluent needs to go somewhere... either the
septic (or sewer) or on the ground or in the ground. I guess one could
recover it and take it to a hazmat disposal site

Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:

Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...

That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

Also, as far as any effects to the septic tank go, is KCL better/worse
than NaCL?

On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:

Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...

That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

By typical and Sears you mean a disposable pre-built softnener with a
shorter service life than an industry standard softener?

The amount of effluent to drain during regneration is dependent on the
hardness of the water and the hardness capacity of the softener.

A PROPERLY sized softener, regenerating every 7 or 8 days, treating
water of say, 10g hardness. with a family of four will run about 50
gallons to drain. Raise the hardness or increase the # of people and
that goes up. If the chosen softener is undersized, and most box store
softeners like sears, GE, Waterboss, and Morton usually are, then they
regenerate more frequently and waste more water and salt.

There's more to correctly sizing a softener than what the hardness
capacity says on the box. Pre-built softeners usually quote that spec
at maximum salt dose and that is not the most efficent use of the
salt.

Also, as far as any effects to the septic tank go, is KCL better/worse
than NaCL?

I haven't read of any. I prefer KCl. You can water plants with KCl
softened water and it is more envirmentally considerate than NaCl. We
prefer the taste of KCl softened water over NaCl softened water and
besides, potassium is good for you. KCl costs more but I choose to
spend the difference.

We have 26-30g hardness water and are two in the home. We use one bag
of KCl a month, but our softener is sized and setup for the most
efficent softening and regeneration operation. It didn't come that
way, I had to fine tune it.

In article , Rick Blaine says...

wrote:

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain.

I have a friend who did that and regrets it. The brine quickly plugged up his
dry well.


A French drain doesn't necessarily run to a dry well.

Actually, I have a separate, non perforated, line for my sump pump to a low
point in the back of my property (woods).

Banty

On Sep 4, 11:53 am, Banty wrote:
In article , Rick Blaine says...



wrote:

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain.

I have a friend who did that and regrets it. The brine quickly plugged up his
dry well.

A French drain doesn't necessarily run to a dry well.

Actually, I have a separate, non perforated, line for my sump pump to a low
point in the back of my property (woods).

Banty


Banty,

That's one solution but I think it is illegal in some localities,
mainly California IIRC. You can't run effluent water to ground
surface. Califronia even has limits on the amount of effluent and the
salt efficency a softener must perform at in order to be permitted.

wrote:
On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:
Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.
Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...
That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

By typical and Sears you mean a disposable pre-built softnener with a
shorter service life than an industry standard softener?

Yeah, that one. We had a Kenmore for several years, seemed to regenerate
once a week at most, and seemed to be going strong after 7 years when we
sold the house and left it behind.

What would you recommend as "industry standard"?

I haven't read of any. I prefer KCl. You can water plants with KCl
softened water and it is more envirmentally considerate than NaCl. We
prefer the taste of KCl softened water over NaCl softened water and
besides, potassium is good for you. KCl costs more but I choose to
spend the difference.

We used KCl as well, the price difference wasn't that much really, given
we only used a bag a month or so.

On Sep 4, 12:12 pm, Javier wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:
Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.
Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...
That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

By typical and Sears you mean a disposable pre-built softnener with a
shorter service life than an industry standard softener?

Yeah, that one. We had a Kenmore for several years, seemed to regenerate
once a week at most, and seemed to be going strong after 7 years when we
sold the house and left it behind.

What would you recommend as "industry standard"?

I haven't read of any. I prefer KCl. You can water plants with KCl
softened water and it is more envirmentally considerate than NaCl. We
prefer the taste of KCl softened water over NaCl softened water and
besides, potassium is good for you. KCl costs more but I choose to
spend the difference.

We used KCl as well, the price difference wasn't that much really, given
we only used a bag a month or so.


Industry standard softeners are sold by local independent water
treatment professionals and are assembled using top quality components
from the industry. Usually a Fleck or Autotrol demand initiated
control valve with a Structural brand resin tank and Purolite or
Sybron resin. Those components have proven themselves in the field for
DECADES and are easy to get service, parts, and tech info for.
Industry standard softeners commonly provide reliable service for
15-20 years with minimal routine service and are more efficent than
the pre-built box store softeners.

Javier wrote:

That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...


About 50 gallons per recharge. For most residential users that should be 100 gal
per month. Basically the same amount of water as 2 ten minute showers and less
than most washing machines use in a single cycle. Considering the average
residential water use is 75-100 gal a day per person, it's pretty insignificant.

Also, as far as any effects to the septic tank go, is KCL better/worse
than NaCL?

I suppose it might be better.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

Javier wrote:

What would you recommend as "industry standard"?


The UPS guy just delivered 5 boxes from http://qualitywatertreatment.com to me
containing a Fleck 2510SE 40K unit. Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, but
it looks nice out of the box. They forgot to include the resin funnel, so I'll
need to cut a bleach bottle down.

No connection to the company other than they seem to run a good operation and
the prices were reasonable.


We used KCl as well, the price difference wasn't that much really, given
we only used a bag a month or so.

That's kind of my feeling. NaCl runs around $5 a 40# bag, KCl runs $7 or so. Not
worth worrying about.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

On Sep 4, 4:57 pm, Rick Blaine wrote:
Javier wrote:
What would you recommend as "industry standard"?

The UPS guy just delivered 5 boxes fromhttp://qualitywatertreatment.comto me
containing a Fleck 2510SE 40K unit. Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, but
it looks nice out of the box. They forgot to include the resin funnel, so I'll
need to cut a bleach bottle down.

No connection to the company other than they seem to run a good operation and
the prices were reasonable.



We used KCl as well, the price difference wasn't that much really, given
we only used a bag a month or so.

That's kind of my feeling. NaCl runs around $5 a 40# bag, KCl runs $7 or so. Not
worth worrying about.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars



Rick,

Remember that 50 gallons of softener effluent isn't clean water, it
includes "x" many pounds of NaCl or KCl.

That 2510SE should last you a long time and buying mail order is one
option if you don't need service.

One tip for you... even though your softener probably includes a
bypass plumb (if it doesn't then get one) a 3 ball valve bypass also.
That way, if the Fleck bypass ever leaks or you have to completely
remove the softener you can bypass that and still have water while
you're waiting for the parts to fix it. Ball valves are cheap and
being without water sucks.

Rick Blaine wrote:

....

That's kind of my feeling. NaCl runs around $5 a 40# bag, KCl runs $7 or so. Not
worth worrying about.
....
While it is not a great expense, KCl is about twice the price.
Potassium is heavier so you get fewer molecules per pound.
Specifically, a pound of NaCl has 1.27 times as many molecules
(and softening power) and a pound of KCl.

Around here, the BORG seems cheapest for KCl at $8.29 per 40#.
NaCl is $4.49. If the NaCl bags are also 40#, that would be
2.35 times the price, but I think that the NaCl bags are 50#,
so that would put KCl at 2.94 times the price.

wrote:

Remember that 50 gallons of softener effluent isn't clean water, it
includes "x" many pounds of NaCl or KCl.


That's true... If you are buying 40 lbs of salt a month, that's 40 lbs of salt
going into the septic system.

That 2510SE should last you a long time and buying mail order is one
option if you don't need service.


I've been known to sweat copper on occasion.

One tip for you... even though your softener probably includes a
bypass plumb (if it doesn't then get one) a 3 ball valve bypass also.
That way, if the Fleck bypass ever leaks or you have to completely
remove the softener you can bypass that and still have water while
you're waiting for the parts to fix it. Ball valves are cheap and
being without water sucks.

Agreed. I have a nice SS one.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

On Sep 4, 12:43 am, wrote:

I have water that is between 26 and 30g hardness and I have a septic
system. I've read many studies that tried to determine if the effluent
(waste) that is the result of regeneration of a watersoftenercauses
damage to septic systems. None of the studies that I found and read
concluded that the waste harmed the septic tank or the septic process
with softeners using either NaCl or KCl.

Some localities mandate that the drain from asoftenermust not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain. A properly sized and set up single resin tanksoftenershould regenerate every 7 or 8 days. If yoursofteneris
regenerating more often then it is undersized and wasting salt and
water.

Twin resin tank softeners may regenerate more often

Very few States/locations call for no discharge to city sewer or
onsite septic systems. Those few that do usually stipulate a dry well
be used. Those that don't, ban on site regenerated softeners all
together. Dry wells and french style drains can very easily
contaminate the groundwater and eventually a home's private well
water.

A french drain is not a dry well although some french style drains may
end in a dry well, very rarely will water make it into the dry well,
because of how a french style drain works.

There are a number of reasons a correctly sized softener will be set
up to regenerate more frequently than every 7-8 days.

Yes most twin tank softeners are undersized, especially Kinetico.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 4, 11:26 am, wrote:

Perhaps your friend's softener is not set up as efficently as possible
and using more salt than necessary. Your friend's softener may be
undersized and regenerating more often than necessary, which is
(unfortunately) far too common, which would increase the softener
effluent dramatically.


More likely is the fact that there are many things in water that will
clog up a dry well than 'salt'.

Also, some of the 'salt' is used by the softener rather than going out
the drain line; specifically part of the sodium or potassium.

... "...using more salt than necessary...undersized and regenerating
more often than necessary"... "which would increase the softener
effluent dramatically". There are serious contradictions in those
comments. Steve, you need to learn more about the set up and sizing of
softeners and how that all impacts on regeneration schedules, water
volume used/per regeneration and salt efficiency.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 4, 12:50 pm, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:
Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...

That's a good point. Do you have any idea how many gallons of brine your
typical modern softener puts out during a regeneration cycle?

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

Also, as far as any effects to the septic tank go, is KCL better/worse
than NaCL?

The amount of 'salt' a softener uses is based on the amount and type
of resin in the softener's resin tank. The volume of 'salt' used is
variable from one softener to the next and can be widely different
from one to another although they are the same brand or physical
size.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 4, 1:07 pm, wrote:
On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote: Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:

Never had a problem with a traditional salt conditioner and my former
septic. If you are worried there are alternatives.

Newer softeners put such a small amount of brine into the septic tank compared
to the hundreds of gallons of effluent that it isn't an issue...

The volume of discharge is dictated by many things and is specific to
each softener and its programming but, the salt dose is set in lbs
(3lbs/gallon of water) and it varies greatly while some softeners even
vary each regeneration's volume of brine; or said another way, the
salt dose.

The amount of effluent to drain during regneration is dependent on the
hardness of the water and the hardness capacity of the softener.

Frankly that is totally wrong and Steve, you should know better.

A PROPERLY sized softener, regenerating every 7 or 8 days, treating
water of say, 10g hardness. with a family of four will run about 50
gallons to drain. Raise the hardness or increase the # of people and
that goes up.

Absolutely not true! WRONG.

There's more to correctly sizing a softener than what the hardness
capacity says on the box. Pre-built softeners usually quote that spec
at maximum salt dose and that is not the most efficent use of the
salt.

That's basically untrue too.

Also, as far as any effects to the septic tank go, is KCL better/worse
than NaCL?

I haven't read of any. I prefer KCl. You can water plants with KCl
softened water and it is more envirmentally considerate than NaCl. We
prefer the taste of KCl softened water over NaCl softened water and
besides, potassium is good for you. KCl costs more but I choose to
spend the difference.

Potassium chloride is one of the chemicals used for lethal injection
death sentence chemicals. It's called salt substitute. Too much
potassium, measured as a small amount, will do a heart patient in very
quickly and not more than a few tablespoons will take out a very
healthy young dude, or dudette. It also makes things grow much larger
and in greater numbers than those same things getting less potassium.
I've never heard of any studies concerning its use and septic systems.

We have 26-30g hardness water and are two in the home. We use one bag
of KCl a month, but our softener is sized and setup for the most
efficent softening and regeneration operation. It didn't come that
way, I had to fine tune it.

Yes you "fine tuned" it because you and I differed on how to program
the softener I sold you in July 2004, using a Clack WS-1 control
valve. And then you disagreed on what the salt dose should be
increased to when you use potassium chloride instead of sodium
chloride with high salt efficiency salt dose settings.

BTW, aren't you lucky you didn't get a Kinetico. You can't change the
hardness without buying a new disc and replacing the old one by taking
their control valve apart. And you can't change the salt dose until
you know how much higher to raise the cheap Styrofoam float in the
brine tank.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 4, 2:08 pm, wrote:
On Sep 4, 11:53 am, Banty wrote:



In article , Rick Blaine says...

wrote:

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain.

I have a friend who did that and regrets it. The brine quickly plugged up his
dry well.

A French drain doesn't necessarily run to a dry well.

Actually, I have a separate, non perforated, line for my sump pump to a low
point in the back of my property (woods).

Banty

Banty,

That's one solution but I think it is illegal in some localities,
mainly California IIRC. You can't run effluent water to ground
surface. Califronia even has limits on the amount of effluent and the
salt efficency a softener must perform at in order to be permitted.

I've never heard of any limit on the amount of discharge in CA or
anywhere else, can you directs us to your source for that information?

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser wrote:


Potassium chloride is one of the chemicals used for lethal injection
death sentence chemicals. It's called salt substitute. Too much

That is pretty meaningless innuendo. Nobody is injecting the brine
from their water softener.

potassium, measured as a small amount, will do a heart patient in very
quickly and not more than a few tablespoons will take out a very
healthy young dude, or dudette. It also makes things grow much larger

The oral toxicities of NaCL (table salt) and Kcl are pretty similar.
LD50 for NaCl is 3.75 g/Kg, and KCl is just slightly more toxic at
2.5 to 3.02 g/Kg (depending upon which source you read).
That means you would need about 200g to kill about half of 170 pound dudes.
That's a lot more than a few tablespoons.

and in greater numbers than those same things getting less potassium.
I've never heard of any studies concerning its use and septic systems.

On Sep 6, 11:25 am, Gary Slusser wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:43 am, wrote:



Very few States/locations call for no discharge to city sewer or
onsite septic systems. Those few that do usually stipulate a dry well
be used. Those that don't, ban on site regenerated softeners all
together. Dry wells and french style drains can very easily
contaminate the groundwater and eventually a home's private well
water.

A french drain is not a dry well although some french style drains may
end in a dry well, very rarely will water make it into the dry well,
because of how a french style drain works.


Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates


Here you go...

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bil...sen_floor.html

http://www.riversideca.gov/municipal...14/12/245.html

http://valleywater.org/media/pdf/Sal...0i n%20CA.pdf

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb3/Permi...s/wdr00-12.pdf

On Sep 6, 1:09 pm, M Q wrote:
Gary Slusser wrote:
Potassium chloride is one of the chemicals used for lethal injection
death sentence chemicals. It's called salt substitute. Too much

That is pretty meaningless innuendo. Nobody is injecting the brine
from their water softener.

potassium, measured as a small amount, will do a heart patient in very
quickly and not more than a few tablespoons will take out a very
healthy young dude, or dudette. It also makes things grow much larger

The oral toxicities of NaCL (table salt) and Kcl are pretty similar.
LD50 for NaCl is 3.75 g/Kg, and KCl is just slightly more toxic at
2.5 to 3.02 g/Kg (depending upon which source you read).
That means you would need about 200g to kill about half of 170 pound dudes.
That's a lot more than a few tablespoons.

and in greater numbers than those same things getting less potassium.
I've never heard of any studies concerning its use and septic systems.


Guess I'll stop eating bananas becuase there's potassium in them.

Gary often opens his mouth just to change feet.

Gary Slusser wrote:
Potassium chloride is one of the chemicals used for lethal injection
death sentence chemicals. It's called salt substitute. Too much
potassium, measured as a small amount, will do a heart patient in very
quickly and not more than a few tablespoons will take out a very
healthy young dude, or dudette. It also makes things grow much larger
and in greater numbers than those same things getting less potassium.

Speaking of heart patients, who aren't supposed to get too much of either
potassium or Viagra, and then talking about making things grow much larger
*and in greater numbers*, well, I don't want to talk about what went
through my head that time.

Q: How do you know if you gave your artichoke hearts too much fertilizer?
A: Severe pain up the artichoke's left arm.

--
If you really believe carbon dioxide causes global warming,
you should stop exhaling.

On Sep 4, 7:54 am, Banty wrote:
In article . com,
says...





On Sep 2, 7:11 am, Javier wrote:
Greetings,

I've a septic tank, and fairly hard water. It's my understanding that
the discharge from the cleaning cycle of a water softener is is damaging
to septic tanks (or rather, the bacterial colonies, as well as the
vegetation growing on the leach field).

What are the options for softening the water for the entire house in
this case?

Thanks!

I have water that is between 26 and 30g hardness and I have a septic
system. I've read many studies that tried to determine if the effluent
(waste) that is the result of regeneration of a water softener causes
damage to septic systems. None of the studies that I found and read
concluded that the waste harmed the septic tank or the septic process
with softeners using either NaCl or KCl.

Some localities mandate that the drain from a softener must not be
routed to a sewer line or a septic system but rather to a seperate
french style drain. A properly sized and set up single resin tank
softener should regenerate every 7 or 8 days. If your softener is
regenerating more often then it is undersized and wasting salt and
water.

Twin resin tank softeners may regenerate more often

Is there any damage to a submersible sump pump?

Banty

It worked fine for me. I ran the discharge line from my softener to
the sump pump, which in turn discharged to a low spot in the yard. I
planted water-loving plants back there (cattails and poplars) and they
thrived. I believe that since the softener exchanges ions, if it is
adjusted correctly, what it discharges should not contain much NaCl,
although it does contain other salts. -- H

wrote:
On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:

By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

By typical and Sears you mean a disposable pre-built softnener with a
shorter service life than an industry standard softener?

Yeah, that one. We had a Kenmore for several years, seemed to regenerate
once a week at most, and seemed to be going strong after 7 years when we
sold the house and left it behind.

What would you recommend as "industry standard"?

Industry standard softeners are sold by local independent water
treatment professionals and are assembled using top quality components
from the industry. Usually a Fleck or Autotrol demand initiated
control valve with a Structural brand resin tank and Purolite or
Sybron resin. Those components have proven themselves in the field for
DECADES and are easy to get service, parts, and tech info for.
Industry standard softeners commonly provide reliable service for
15-20 years with minimal routine service and are more efficent than
the pre-built box store softeners.

More efficient.... efficiency is based on how the softener control
valve is programmed in relation to the volume and type of resin used
in the softener. The size of the resin tank is dictated by the volume
of resin in the tank.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the brand of resin tank or brine
tank (or the size of brine tank), the brand of control valve (except
the Autotrol Logix timer which only has three salt dose settings and
used on various Autotrol control valves) or the brand of resin (there
are at least 6 manufacturers of softener resin with numerous resins to
choose from).

As to control valves, I suggest the Clack WS-1 as the best valve for
DIYers. It is the easiest and fastest to repair and the parts are the
lowest priced of all valves. Three Fleck engineers designed the Clack
line of valves and copied and improved the piston, seal and spacer
design Fleck has been famous for since 1953.

Clack is huge in the manufacturing of all kinds of parts and equipment
for the water quality improvement industry from residential to
industrial sized equipment. Clack has been in business since 1946,
longer than anyone else manufacturing this stuff.

Many companies that had used Fleck valves for decades have dropped
Fleck and gone to Clack, as many dealers and plumbing and pump supply
houses have also. Fleck is raising their prices again (this year) by
7%. To my knowledge Clack hasn't raised their prices since 2000 but
I've only been selling their valves since Jan 2 2004, but the prices
haven't raised since then. I've sold roughly 880 of hem and had only
19 problems. And they are the lowest parts prices of any valve
manufacturer. And there are no special, control valve model specific
tools need to rebuild/repair a Clack like the Fleck 1500, 2510, 3600,
5600, 6600, 6700 and 7000 valves all require.

Now justalurker has said that he doesn't need the special tools for
the 5600, and agrees with a guy that says he doesn't need the tools
for a 2510. Before I'd believe it I'd have to see them replace the
seals and spacers in any of those valves except the 7000 without the
tools.

Truth be known, justalurker has a 1.5 cuft softener in his garage with
a Clack WS-1 control valve on it that he bought from me in Jul 2004.
He says he took it out and gave it to a buddy of his to be used as a
door stop in his shed... he refuses to send me a picture of his garage
showing a different softener, or none in his garage in Edgewood NM. I
have pictures of his garage with the one I sold him.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 3:03 pm, Gary Slusser wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 4, 10:50 am, Javier wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:
By "typical modern" assume something Sears sells for household use...

By typical and Sears you mean a disposable pre-built softnener with a
shorter service life than an industry standard softener?

Yeah, that one. We had a Kenmore for several years, seemed to regenerate
once a week at most, and seemed to be going strong after 7 years when we
sold the house and left it behind.

What would you recommend as "industry standard"?

Industry standard softeners are sold by local independent water
treatment professionals and are assembled using top quality components
from the industry. Usually a Fleck or Autotrol demand initiated
control valve with a Structural brand resin tank and Purolite or
Sybron resin. Those components have proven themselves in the field for
DECADES and are easy to get service, parts, and tech info for.
Industry standard softeners commonly provide reliable service for
15-20 years with minimal routine service and are more efficent than
the pre-built box store softeners.

More efficient.... efficiency is based on how the softener control
valve is programmed in relation to the volume and type of resin used
in the softener. The size of the resin tank is dictated by the volume
of resin in the tank.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the brand of resin tank or brine
tank (or the size of brine tank), the brand of control valve (except
the Autotrol Logix timer which only has three salt dose settings and
used on various Autotrol control valves) or the brand of resin (there
are at least 6 manufacturers of softener resin with numerous resins to
choose from).

As to control valves, I suggest the Clack WS-1 as the best valve for
DIYers. It is the easiest and fastest to repair and the parts are the
lowest priced of all valves. Three Fleck engineers designed the Clack
line of valves and copied and improved the piston, seal and spacer
design Fleck has been famous for since 1953.

Clack is huge in the manufacturing of all kinds of parts and equipment
for the water quality improvement industry from residential to
industrial sized equipment. Clack has been in business since 1946,
longer than anyone else manufacturing this stuff.

Many companies that had used Fleck valves for decades have dropped
Fleck and gone to Clack, as many dealers and plumbing and pump supply
houses have also. Fleck is raising their prices again (this year) by
7%. To my knowledge Clack hasn't raised their prices since 2000 but
I've only been selling their valves since Jan 2 2004, but the prices
haven't raised since then. I've sold roughly 880 of hem and had only
19 problems. And they are the lowest parts prices of any valve
manufacturer. And there are no special, control valve model specific
tools need to rebuild/repair a Clack like the Fleck 1500, 2510, 3600,
5600, 6600, 6700 and 7000 valves all require.

Now justalurker has said that he doesn't need the special tools for
the 5600, and agrees with a guy that says he doesn't need the tools
for a 2510. Before I'd believe it I'd have to see them replace the
seals and spacers in any of those valves except the 7000 without the
tools.

Truth be known, justalurker has a 1.5 cuft softener in his garage with
a Clack WS-1 control valve on it that he bought from me in Jul 2004.
He says he took it out and gave it to a buddy of his to be used as a
door stop in his shed... he refuses to send me a picture of his garage
showing a different softener, or none in his garage in Edgewood NM. I
have pictures of his garage with the one I sold him.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates


And this menutia has nothing to do with you statement "I've never
heard of any limit on the amount of discharge in CA or anywhere else,
can you directs us to your source for that information?"

since you seem "Googling challenged" when you can't bull**** everybody
I've ALREADY provided you with just a FEW links that are on point.

Here you go, again...

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bil...sb_1006_cfa_19...

http://www.riversideca.gov/municipal...14/12/245.html

http://valleywater.org/media/pdf/Sal...rkshop/DWR%20O...

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb3/Permi...s/wdr00-12.pdf

Read and learn...


Please stop holding me responsible for the limitiations of your
mechanical skills.

On Sep 4, 7:50 pm, wrote:

One tip for you... even though your softener probably includes a
bypass plumb (if it doesn't then get one) a 3 ball valve bypass also.
That way, if the Fleck bypass ever leaks or you have to completely
remove the softener you can bypass that and still have water while
you're waiting for the parts to fix it. Ball valves are cheap and
being without water sucks.

A manual three way by pass valve is a bad idea. Factory by-pass valves
rarely if ever leak and when they do, it is a small drip and usually
tightening a screw on Fleck SS BPs strps it.

Some codes are not allowing three way BPs anyway.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 3:20 pm, Gary Slusser wrote:
On Sep 4, 7:50 pm, wrote:


Some codes are not allowing three way BPs anyway.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

PROVE IT!

On Sep 6, 3:51 pm, wrote:
On Sep 6, 11:25 am, Gary Slusser wrote:



On Sep 4, 12:43 am, wrote:

Very few States/locations call for no discharge to city sewer or
onsite septic systems. Those few that do usually stipulate a dry well
be used. Those that don't, ban on site regenerated softeners all
together. Dry wells and french style drains can very easily
contaminate the groundwater and eventually a home's private well
water.

A french drain is not a dry well although some french style drains may
end in a dry well, very rarely will water make it into the dry well,
because of how a french style drain works.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Here you go...

You've replied to the wrong post but.... if you are replying to my
comment:
"Very few States/locations call for no discharge to city sewer or
onsite septic systems.".
Then you must think that 4 links to the State of CA is a lot. I don't.

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bil...sb_1006_cfa_19...

I've read it all and there is no mention of limiting the volume of a
softener's discharge. The only use of the word is concerning the
limitation of salinity in their sewer system, not an individual
residential households' waste stream.

Are you aware that most if not all those regs were overturned through
legal action?

http://www.riversideca.gov/municipal...14/12/245.html

http://valleywater.org/media/pdf/Sal...rkshop/DWR%20O...

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb3/Permi...s/wdr00-12.pdf

I suspect the last three articles/links above are on the same banning
residential softeners subject instead of showing me were the discharge
from a softener into a city sewer is limited as in the volume rather
than banned outright. So I won't be reading them, copy paste where it
says they limit volume rather than ban it altogether and I'll read it.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 3:09 pm, M Q wrote:
Gary Slusser wrote:
Potassium chloride is one of the chemicals used for lethal injection
death sentence chemicals. It's called salt substitute. Too much

That is pretty meaningless innuendo. Nobody is injecting the brine
from their water softener.

Those using potassium chloride to regenerate their water softener, and
then drinking or cooking with the softened water, are ingesting it
potassium. Any idea of how much, albeit the amount varies based on the
ion exchange being done by each individual softener and, how much
softened water they ingest?

potassium, measured as a small amount, will do a heart patient in very
quickly and not more than a few tablespoons will take out a very
healthy young dude, or dudette. It also makes things grow much larger

The oral toxicities of NaCL (table salt) and Kcl are pretty similar.
LD50 for NaCl is 3.75 g/Kg, and KCl is just slightly more toxic at
2.5 to 3.02 g/Kg (depending upon which source you read).
That means you would need about 200g to kill about half of 170 pound dudes.
That's a lot more than a few tablespoons.

It also says someone considers it toxic to humans. And maybe it would
take days for them to die instead minutes to hours?

and in greater numbers than those same things getting less potassium.
I've never heard of any studies concerning its use and septic systems.

Maybe a quick scan of the labels on any brand of salt substitute would
help.

I'm told one says; "Persons having diabetes, heart or kidney disease,
or persons receiving medical treatment should consult a physician
before using a salt alternative or substitute.".

Another' "Consult physician before using any salt substitute."

I don't know, does a bag of table salt have the same comments on its
label?

Do bags of potassium chloride used in softeners have any such
statements on their label?

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 5:18 pm, wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:03 pm, Gary Slusser wrote:

And this menutia has nothing to do with your statement "I've never
heard of any limit on the amount of discharge in CA or anywhere else,
can you directs us to your source for that information?"

since you seem "Googling challenged" when you can't bull**** everybody
I've ALREADY provided you with just a FEW links that are on point.

Here you go, again...

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bil...sb_1006_cfa_19...

http://www.riversideca.gov/municipal...14/12/245.html

http://valleywater.org/media/pdf/Sal...rkshop/DWR%20O...

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb3/Permi...s/wdr00-12.pdf

Read and learn...

And I still have no proof of your claim that there is a limit of the
gallons of discharge etc. in those links, there isn't in the first
link. So find, identify and copy/paste one instance where they limit
the volume of discharge from a softener as opposed to outright banning
them or allowing them.

Please stop holding me responsible for the limitiations of your
mechanical skills.

You make the claim of no tools, not me. So show or tell us in detail
how to replace the seals and spacers in a Fleck 5600 or 2510 without
the special tools and I'll be corrected. Remember you can't get two
fingers into the hole in the valve body to be able to grip a spacer.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 5:23 pm, wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:20 pm, Gary Slusser wrote:

On Sep 4, 7:50 pm, wrote:

Some codes are not allowing three way BPs anyway.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

PROVE IT!

I can't, plumbers and prospective customers have told me.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

On Sep 6, 7:30 pm, Gary Slusser wrote:
On Sep 6, 5:18 pm, wrote:


You make the claim of no tools, not me. So show or tell us in detail
how to replace the seals and spacers in a Fleck 5600 or 2510 without
the special tools and I'll be corrected. Remember you can't get two
fingers into the hole in the valve body to be able to grip a spacer.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

I have repaired more than 10 Fleck 5600 control valves with my own
hands and without the special tools. No trick to it other than having
the necessary mechanical skill. Don't blame me because you can't do it
without the special tool.

There's no point in proving to you that I can. I know I can and you
already know that you can't.

Special tools are designed to make a difficult job easier for the
average parts swapper. Skilled technicians (in many fields) rarely use
special tools because they've made those repairs BEFORE the tools
exist. They have a higher level of skill and have mastered the task.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, use special tools or pay a
professional to do the job for them.

Your refusal to believe that I can repair a Fleck control valve
without using the special tool is amusing but perhaps, with enough
practice and significant improvement of your mechanical skill, someday
you may be able to do it also.

Grasshopper... when you can rebuild a Fleck control valve without the
special tool it will be time for you to leave.