I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by
larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher? Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher? Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits
involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up less
room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could assume
that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel), the other
is too.

Perce


Addressing the connection method: When I think of crimps, I think of the
type that already have a plastic sleeve over a metal interior. However, I
*have* seen a type that's just a metal sleeve. As far as I know, they are
intended only for joining bare ground wires.

Someone will stumble along here and claim otherwise, but I think electrical
tape is for slobs and hacks who don't know how to make a secure connection,
so they cover things up with tape to hide their incompetence. It also leaves
things gummy. When I want to rewire something, my definition doesn't include
wiping gunk off my fingers constantly because some monkey went nuts with
tape.

I once asked a local inspector and was told it was perfectly legal to use
crimps for house wiring, and was told that it WAS. There are two caveats:

1) You must use a crimp tool that actually shapes the crimp properly. You
won't find such a tool at Home Depot or Lowe's. It'll take some effort. It
requires a channel for the crimp to sit in, and a tooth-like prong on the
opposite jaw. The tooth almost creates a hole in one side of the crimp.

2) If wires might need to be disassembled later, and they're already short,
cutting off an old crimp will obviously make them even shorter. Use wire
nuts in these situations. Have several sizes on hand.

In article , "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections
[...]

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.

Wire nuts are perfectly fine; crimps aren't unless they're made properly, and
- no offense intended - asking the question shows that you don't know how to
make them properly.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

It's "OK" in the sense that it is permitted by the NEC, although in my opinion
it should not be -- for exactly the reason you cite. It would be a good idea
to write a warning with a Sharpie on the inside of the cover plate.
Perce

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 07/20/07 03:24 pm Doug Miller wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections
[...]
Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.

Wire nuts are perfectly fine; crimps aren't unless they're made properly, and
- no offense intended - asking the question shows that you don't know how to
make them properly.

I have a Gardner-Bender stripping/crimping/etc. tool that AFAIK is meant
for this job, and I believe I know how to use it. Asking whether it's OK
to do something has nothing to do, IMO, with knowing how to do it. There
are many possibilities:

1. I know it's OK and know how to do it.

2. I know it's OK but don't know how to do it.

3. I don't know whether it's OK and wouldn't know how even if it is OK.

4. I don't know whether it's OK but know how to do it.

I believe I fall into the last category.

Actually I suppose there are yet other possibilities:

5. I know it's not OK but know how to do it and will do it anyway.

6. I haven't a clue but will do it wrong even if it would be OK if I did
it right....

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

It's "OK" in the sense that it is permitted by the NEC, although in my opinion
it should not be -- for exactly the reason you cite. It would be a good idea
to write a warning with a Sharpie on the inside of the cover plate.

Good idea.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?


Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.







Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits
involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up less
room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could assume
that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel), the other
is too.

Perce

On 07/20/07 11:41 pm ** Frank ** wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?

Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.

It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by
a wirenut.

Perce

On Jul 20, 11:48 pm, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:
On 07/20/07 11:41 pm ** Frank ** wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.

It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by
a wirenut.

Perce

Of course more insulation is better, but r

On Jul 20, 11:48 pm, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:
On 07/20/07 11:41 pm ** Frank ** wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.

It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by
a wirenut.

Perce

More insulation is better, but remember that the splice is usually
tucked safely in the box

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 07/20/07 11:41 pm ** Frank ** wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes
by larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases
all the conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps
that have then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?

Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.

It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by
a wirenut.


Tape is OK. I would use more that 3 layers. Be careful of points and
edges that can poke through the tape. It has to be listed electrical tape.

The crimps also have to be listed for purpose - including wire size and
number of wires, stranded/solid, and voltage for insulated crimps.

--
bud--

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 07/20/07 11:41 pm ** Frank ** wrote:

I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by
larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?

Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.

It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by a
wirenut.

Perce


One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there is
absolutely no need for it.

This company makes the best crimps you can buy:
http://www.panduit.com/search/search... u=P_RollupKey

On that page, you'll see a link to a pdf file which discusses proper
crimping tools and techniques.

Although you can order directly from the company, there may also be an
industrial supply dealer near you that sells their products.

On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there is
absolutely no need for it.

These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped
onto the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if
they are used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards.
What would you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
is absolutely no need for it.

These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce


Since the wrong kind of crimps were used, I would cut them out and change
them to insulated crimps. If you have the wrong connectors, you don't use
them and try and make them right. You stop the work until you have the right
thing. A cob job might be appropriate when making toast, but not when wiring
a house (or car, boat, or anything else).

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right,
there is absolutely no need for it.

These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped
onto the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if
they are used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards.
What would you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?

Perce

You would use the system as designed by the manufacturer. There is a
matching cap designed to be used with those connectors. You can get them
at a real electrical supply house.

on 7/20/2007 2:47 PM Percival P. Cassidy said the following:
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes
by larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases
all the conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps
that have then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
Surely wirenuts provide better insulation than the tape. There could
be 220/240 volts between conductors in some boxes because there are
Edison circuits involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

Perce

I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?

With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices. When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.

Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.

Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.

Beachcomber

On 07/21/07 12:38 pm Beachcomber wrote:

I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?

With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices.

I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
the holes and held secure by clamping screws.

When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.

I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.

Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.

Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.

The ones I just encountered were likely original (30 years) and the tape
was tight.

Perce

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:21:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:



I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
the holes and held secure by clamping screws.

When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.

I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.

Is your first sentence in your paragraph above a conclusion you
reached from your second sentence, or was it a separate statement you
read?

The seoncd sentence means that the wirenuts must be able to make a
secure connection if the wires are not pretwisted. It does not in
itself doesn't mean that the wires can't also be pretwisted. Or even
that it wouldn't work better if they were pretwitsted.

I only do this stuff once in a while, and sometimes I don't pretwist,
I guess usually when I don't have pliers handy, but I feel more
confidant of the electrical connection when it is pretwisted. Based
on my knowledge of things and materials and touching, I don't know how
it could be otherwise.

Beachcomber wrote:
I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?

With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices. When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.

Wirenuts are properly applied by holding the wires parallel and then
twisting the wirenut.



Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.

Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.


You won't see that if a quality tape such as Scotch 33 or 88 is used.
You will see that if you use that stuff commonly found at the big box
stores.

Beachcomber

"willshak" wrote in message
...
on 7/20/2007 2:47 PM Percival P. Cassidy said the following:
I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher? Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits
involved.

Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up less
room.

And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.

Perce

I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or switches?
Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the crimp off with
a pair of pliers?
Bill


Two things:

If you can remove a crimp using pliers, it means the crimp wasn't installed
correctly in the first place. If you need to change a connection, you cut on
either side of the crimp. If you're running new wiring, you leave extra in
case you need to cut out a crimp. If it seems that existing wiring is
already too short to allow cutting later, use wire nuts.