Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are R410a
systems REALLY as reliable R22?

I live in a condo and replacing the refrigerant lineset would involve
ripping up the ceiling drywall. My AC system is 20 years old. Wondering
the best solution would be to get a new R22 system (with existing
refrigerant lines) installed before 2010. If the existing system were to
die after 2010, then only systems that use 410a will be sold, and I would
have to hope and pray that cleaning/purging out the old lines REALLY is
going to be sufficient for a reliable 410a system. What do you think?

Thanks,

J.

"Jay-n-123" wrote in message
news:dPG2i.12203$NY3.627@trnddc03...
Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are R410a
systems REALLY as reliable R22?


Depends on the installer.


I live in a condo and replacing the refrigerant lineset would involve
ripping up the ceiling drywall. My AC system is 20 years old. Wondering
the best solution would be to get a new R22 system (with existing
refrigerant lines) installed before 2010. If the existing system were
to
die after 2010, then only systems that use 410a will be sold, and I would
have to hope and pray that cleaning/purging out the old lines REALLY is
going to be sufficient for a reliable 410a system. What do you think?

Thanks,

J.


You're likely to be screwed either way, if the lineset isn't large enough
for the new high S.E.E.R. equipment.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...
You're likely to be screwed either way, if the lineset isn't large enough
for the new high S.E.E.R. equipment.


In our area, I'm beginning to notice a few common trade practices (that
might be unique to around here), and wonder if you could flesh out the
reasoning for one of them.

Except for slab construction, I've noticed that nobody seems to use chases
or conduits through which to run linesets. I've even seen a few cast right
into slabs without the first bit of pipe around them. It seems to me that
some 4" or 6" thinwall waste pipe would be a great investment toward future
upgrades. For any set shorter than 100', it would be pretty inexpensive,
too.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade sets
I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one objection to using
it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his in that stagnant
goop...)

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and labor -
that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

LLoyd

Jay-n-123 writes:

Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are
R410a systems REALLY as reliable R22?

R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore
cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system
could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.

410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.

Do you think I should plan on gettting a new R22 system by 2009 since they
stop making R22 systems in 2010? (My existing system is 20 years old)

R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore
cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system
could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.

410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.

"Jay-n-123" wrote in message
news:dPG2i.12203$NY3.627@trnddc03...
Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are R410a
systems REALLY as reliable R22?

I live in a condo and replacing the refrigerant lineset would involve
ripping up the ceiling drywall. My AC system is 20 years old. Wondering
the best solution would be to get a new R22 system (with existing
refrigerant lines) installed before 2010. If the existing system were
to die after 2010, then only systems that use 410a will be sold, and I
would have to hope and pray that cleaning/purging out the old lines REALLY
is going to be sufficient for a reliable 410a system. What do you think?

According to the Rheem tech rep, if the lineset is correctly sized, blowing
it out with N2 real well and using a little lineset flush is sufficient for
a new R-410a system. Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient
refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor. The same size of R-22 system
in the same efficiency will use twice the amount of refrigerant to do the
job. The real catch is if the lineset is correctly sized. As far as
reliability, I have recently replaced 35 year old R-22 systems with
R-410a....I can't say about the longevity with the new because it hasn't
been around that long.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...
You're likely to be screwed either way, if the lineset isn't large enough
for the new high S.E.E.R. equipment.


In our area, I'm beginning to notice a few common trade practices (that
might be unique to around here), and wonder if you could flesh out the
reasoning for one of them.

Except for slab construction, I've noticed that nobody seems to use
chases or conduits through which to run linesets. I've even seen a few
cast right into slabs without the first bit of pipe around them. It
seems to me that some 4" or 6" thinwall waste pipe would be a great
investment toward future upgrades. For any set shorter than 100', it
would be pretty inexpensive, too.

Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one objection
to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his in that
stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and labor -
that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

LLoyd

"Jay-n-123" wrote in message
news:7aI2i.40082$145.1529@trnddc02...
Do you think I should plan on gettting a new R22 system by 2009 since they
stop making R22 systems in 2010? (My existing system is 20 years old)

R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore
cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system
could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.

410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.

Currently, the R-22 systems are more expensive that the R-410a systems of
the same size and efficiency

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one objection
to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his in that
stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam (spray-on)
and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end; and of course,
the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was sealed with foam. I
presume the water was from condensation and not from leakage. Seems like
only a good hermetic seal would prevent the pipe from breathing under
temperature changes.

What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and labor -
that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that clearly.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one objection
to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his in that
stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam (spray-on)
and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end; and of
course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was sealed with
foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not from leakage.
Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the pipe from breathing
under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough. The
only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the control
wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape them.....I have
had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I don't staple them
inside of the walls either.

What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

Just use the expanding foam.....its a good idea to make sure that the inside
of the chase is clean and dry before you run the copper.

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that clearly.


LLoyd

Noon-Air writes:

Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient
refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor.

Please explain.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Noon-Air writes:

Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient
refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor.

Please explain.

Ok..... 2 heat pumps, 4 ton, 13 SEER...same series......

RPNL-048JAZ 13SEER R-410a heat pump takes 11.5lbs refrigerant and rated 21.8
RLA(measured amp draw on the compressor is 12.8 - 13.2 amps) Copeland
compressor # ZP42K5E-PFV-130

RPNE-048JAZ 13SEER R-22 heat pump takes 19.8lbs refrigerant and rated 22.7
RLA (measured amp draw on the compressor is 17.6 - 18.0 amps) Copeland
compressor # ZR45K3-PFV-835

The R-410a compressor is also physically almost half the size of the R-22
compressor. Using half the amount of refrigerant, half of the coils(single
layer instead of double layer coils in the condenser/heat pump), and a
smaller compressor, to give the same or greater efficiency at the same BTU
capacity, makes R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.

On Wed, 16 May 2007 13:37:10 -0500, "Noon-Air"
wrote:


"Jay-n-123" wrote in message
news:dPG2i.12203$NY3.627@trnddc03...
Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are R410a
systems REALLY as reliable R22?

I live in a condo and replacing the refrigerant lineset would involve
ripping up the ceiling drywall. My AC system is 20 years old. Wondering
the best solution would be to get a new R22 system (with existing
refrigerant lines) installed before 2010. If the existing system were
to die after 2010, then only systems that use 410a will be sold, and I
would have to hope and pray that cleaning/purging out the old lines REALLY
is going to be sufficient for a reliable 410a system. What do you think?

According to the Rheem tech rep, if the lineset is correctly sized, blowing
it out with N2 real well and using a little lineset flush is sufficient for
a new R-410a system. Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient
refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor. The same size of R-22 system
in the same efficiency will use twice the amount of refrigerant to do the
job. The real catch is if the lineset is correctly sized. As far as
reliability, I have recently replaced 35 year old R-22 systems with
R-410a....I can't say about the longevity with the new because it hasn't
been around that long.

A little more info on the lineset size, please. Does R-410a require a
different size line than R-22?

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one
objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his
in that stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam
(spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end;
and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was
sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not from
leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the pipe from
breathing under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough.
The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the
control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape
them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I
don't staple them inside of the walls either.

What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

Just use the expanding foam.....its a good idea to make sure that the
inside of the chase is clean and dry before you run the copper.

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that
clearly.


LLoyd


I was on a job once and saw perforated pipe used. The contractor told me
that there was a perimeter drain and the refrigerant lines were above the
tile, so instead of sealing off the ends with foam he stuffed them. His idea
is that any condensation leaks would be leached.
Interesting way he thinks

"Geoman" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one
objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his
in that stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam
(spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end;
and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was
sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not
from leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the
pipe from breathing under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough.
The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the
control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape
them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I
don't staple them inside of the walls either.

What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

Just use the expanding foam.....its a good idea to make sure that the
inside of the chase is clean and dry before you run the copper.

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that
clearly.


LLoyd


I was on a job once and saw perforated pipe used. The contractor told me
that there was a perimeter drain and the refrigerant lines were above the
tile, so instead of sealing off the ends with foam he stuffed them. His
idea is that any condensation leaks would be leached.
Interesting way he thinks

ummmmm...... yeah......ok........

On Wed, 16 May 2007 15:46:18 -0500, "Noon-Air" wrote:


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
...
Noon-Air writes:

Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient
refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor.

Please explain.

Ok..... 2 heat pumps, 4 ton, 13 SEER...same series......

RPNL-048JAZ 13SEER R-410a heat pump takes 11.5lbs refrigerant and rated 21.8
RLA(measured amp draw on the compressor is 12.8 - 13.2 amps) Copeland
compressor # ZP42K5E-PFV-130

RPNE-048JAZ 13SEER R-22 heat pump takes 19.8lbs refrigerant and rated 22.7
RLA (measured amp draw on the compressor is 17.6 - 18.0 amps) Copeland
compressor # ZR45K3-PFV-835

The R-410a compressor is also physically almost half the size of the R-22
compressor. Using half the amount of refrigerant, half of the coils(single
layer instead of double layer coils in the condenser/heat pump), and a
smaller compressor, to give the same or greater efficiency at the same BTU
capacity, makes R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.

Please to compare (say, contractors) cost of 11.5lbs of R-410a
(which is not 1 refrigerant but a combination of 2) vs 19.8lbs
of R-22.

80+% of residential cooling is done without heat pumps. Any
particular reason to illustrate with heat pumps?

I can't say about the longevity with the new because it hasn't
been around that long.

This comment was appreciated.

Thx,
Puddin'

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one
objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his
in that stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam
(spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end;
and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was
sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not from
leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the pipe from
breathing under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough.
The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the
control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape
them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I
don't staple them inside of the walls either.

Noon-Air
That might be ok where you are but if your talking about apartments or
commercial where some form of fire separation/segregation is required.
Expanding polyurethene sealants are forbidden in these instances so you
might like to/should reconsider and used an appropriate intumescent (fire
rated) mastic sealant.

As to the practice of pouring concrete over the linesets - sounds like a
whole lot of liability exposure to me...

What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

Just use the expanding foam.....its a good idea to make sure that the
inside of the chase is clean and dry before you run the copper.

Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that
clearly.


LLoyd

"Noon-Air" wrote:
Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

Hey, that's a great idea! How much radius do you think you need on the
curve to pull a lineset through 35' of horizontal pipe and then up a
foot or two into the HVAC closet?

"New Directions In Building Services (Australia)"
wrote in message u...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade
sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one
objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his
in that stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam
(spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end;
and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was
sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not
from leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the
pipe from breathing under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough.
The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the
control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape
them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I
don't staple them inside of the walls either.

Noon-Air
That might be ok where you are but if your talking about apartments or
commercial where some form of fire separation/segregation is required.
Expanding polyurethene sealants are forbidden in these instances so you
might like to/should reconsider and used an appropriate intumescent (fire
rated) mastic sealant.

I only use the expanding foam where the lineset is inside of a PVC chase
inside of the slab. 99% of what I do is single family residential. Apartment
owners and commerical building owners around here only want the lowest
bidder.

As to the practice of pouring concrete over the linesets - sounds like a
whole lot of liability exposure to me...

The linesets are encased in a PVC pipe chase inside of the slab so there is
no direct contact between copper and concrete. The PVC pipe chase also makes
it a lot easier to change the lineset when needed.

"Longtime Lurker" wrote in message
. ..
"Noon-Air" wrote:
Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

Hey, that's a great idea! How much radius do you think you need on the
curve to pull a lineset through 35' of horizontal pipe and then up a
foot or two into the HVAC closet?

Just put a 45 degree elbow (long radius prefered)on the pipe where it comes
out in the closet floor.

"Noon-Air" wrote:

Just put a 45 degree elbow (long radius prefered)on the pipe where it comes
out in the closet floor.

Ah, so don't come straight up! Just try to get into the closet as
straight as possible, and with as few degrees of bend as possible, and
with as long a radius as possible. Ok, I'll put that in the spec!

Noon-Air writes:

R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.

Really?

So, um, how is it both units ARE THE SAME SEER?

Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities: heat
moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil or
compressor volume is not a factor.

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"New Directions In Building Services (Australia)"
wrote in message
u...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..
Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job


So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save
time/sweat?

yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or
below-grade sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might
be one objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and
not his in that stagnant goop...)

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam
(spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end;
and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was
sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not
from leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the
pipe from breathing under temperature changes.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough.
The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the
control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape
them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I
don't staple them inside of the walls either.

Noon-Air
That might be ok where you are but if your talking about apartments or
commercial where some form of fire separation/segregation is required.
Expanding polyurethene sealants are forbidden in these instances so you
might like to/should reconsider and used an appropriate intumescent (fire
rated) mastic sealant.

I only use the expanding foam where the lineset is inside of a PVC chase
inside of the slab. 99% of what I do is single family residential.
Apartment owners and commerical building owners around here only want the
lowest bidder.

As to the practice of pouring concrete over the linesets - sounds like a
whole lot of liability exposure to me...

The linesets are encased in a PVC pipe chase inside of the slab so there
is no direct contact between copper and concrete. The PVC pipe chase also
makes it a lot easier to change the lineset when needed.

Good stuff - yes it's (polyurethene sealant) quite legitimate to use on
single detached dwelling units.
Some more considerations for all you craftsmen ......
Also glad that you use extended radius wherever practical - For R22 I
believe that the rule of thumb for linesets is each 90deg bend is equal to
5m (that's about 15 feet) of horizontal pipe run and the maximum lift for
R22 needs to be kept below 6m (20 ft). An oil trap needs to be used if the
evaporator is below the compressor (or the oil will migrate out of the
compressor then "poof" another unnecessary callout and repair) and if
otherwise the lineset should fall at not less than 1degree back to the
compressor (same reason).

"Longtime Lurker" wrote in message
. ..
"Noon-Air" wrote:
Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and
labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

Hey, that's a great idea! How much radius do you think you need on the
curve to pull a lineset through 35' of horizontal pipe and then up a
foot or two into the HVAC closet?

I don't know how much you can get away with on a 7/8" suction line, but the
two I've pulled both had 45-degree ells at both ends (total 90). The pull
and subsequent re-piping were a little bit hard, and required some
cooperation to not put too much pull at the bends, but we didn't crimp the
suction lines doing them.

LLoyd

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Noon-Air writes:

R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.

Really?

So, um, how is it both units ARE THE SAME SEER?

Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities: heat
moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil or
compressor volume is not a factor.

So why is it that the coils size, volume, refrigerant quantity, compressor
size, compressor capacity are so much larger on the R-22 systems to get the
same efficiency and BTU ratings as the same equipment in R-410a????

I can only tell you what I *SEE* from direct, hands on experience, and what
I am learning from the manufacturers tech reps, and engineers.

Richard, Just for grinns, how many of each of these systems have you
installed?? What first hand experience do you have with the new systems??

First Thank you Mr. Kinch
You are the first person that I read in these forum
about Refrigerant 410,
I personally I do not find anything good about R-410.
but then all new refrigerants are not that great
with exception of R-508B all rest run with high temp. discharge
if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil
because you can not take moisture out of oil, so what it's good
about this new refrigerant I have no idea.
However Manufactures loves R-410 because it makes compressors
more efficient specifically Scrowl no that is not correct, "actually all
compressors other then reciprocal" again because
it is easier for them to assemble the system and compressors are
cheaper there is no other benefits from this refrigerant

I regard to piping size you can always use higher pressure
refrigerants on the older systems that was using lower
pressure refrigerant of the same capacities.
Note yes R-22 manufacture will stop making new gas
but recycled gas will be on market for long time after that.
Tony
www.cas-environ.com


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Jay-n-123 writes:

Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are
R410a systems REALLY as reliable R22?

R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore
cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system
could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.

410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.

"Tony" wrote in news:7b23i.9436$yy6.1077@trnddc05:

First Thank you Mr. Kinch
You are the first person that I read in these forum
about Refrigerant 410,

You must be new here....


I personally I do not find anything good about R-410.
but then all new refrigerants are not that great
with exception of R-508B all rest run with high temp. discharge

So what?
How does that make them poor refrigerants?



if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil
because you can not take moisture out of oil,



A leak on the low side doesn't mean moisture will get into the system.
It's still under pressure. How do you figure external moisture is going
to overcome the pressure of the refrigerant leaking out and infiltrate
the system?



so what it's good
about this new refrigerant I have no idea.

Maybe take a night school course.


However Manufactures loves R-410 because it makes compressors
more efficient specifically Scrowl no that is not correct, "actually
all compressors other then reciprocal" again because
it is easier for them to assemble the system and compressors are
cheaper there is no other benefits from this refrigerant



Where are you getting this **** from??
Did this come to you in a dream???






--
"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
Oh, the joys of diversity!"

Respectfully, Bob

Richard J Kinch writes:
Noon-Air writes:

R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.

Really?

So, um, how is it both units ARE THE SAME SEER?

Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities: heat
moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil or
compressor volume is not a factor.

Sounds like you're talking about two different measures of efficiency.
One is saying that R-410 is a more efficient *refrigerant* because it
provides more cooling per unit of refrigerant pumped around the system.
The other is saying that both *systems* have the same efficiency in
terms of cooling provided per watt-hour of electricity consumed.

Dave

Dave Martindale writes:

Sounds like you're talking about two different measures of efficiency.

Yes. My right one, and the other wrong one.

Noon-Air writes:

Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities:
heat moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil
or compressor volume is not a factor.

So why is it that the coils size, volume, refrigerant quantity,
compressor size, compressor capacity are so much larger on the R-22
systems to get the same efficiency and BTU ratings as the same
equipment in R-410a????

That's an interesting issue, but it is not a matter of efficiency.

I can only tell you what I *SEE* from direct, hands on experience, and
what I am learning from the manufacturers tech reps, and engineers.

Your observations are fine. Your analysis of those observations is
muddled as regards efficiency.

The profit motive tends to overpower critical thinking. Here is some
typical blarney from a Peirce-Phelps, Inc Web page that shills for
Carrier (http://www.nopay.com/aircond_38TZA.asp):

Puron® refrigerant is a more energy efficient refrigerant than Freon®*
22, and with the 38TZA, that means efficiency ratings up to 14 SEER
(Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio).

Now if it is more efficient, up to 14 SEER, then this implies there is
no R-22 system of 14 SEER or more. Which is false.

"Tony" wrote in message
news:7b23i.9436$yy6.1077@trnddc05...
First Thank you Mr. Kinch
You are the first person that I read in these forum
about Refrigerant 410,
I personally I do not find anything good about R-410.
but then all new refrigerants are not that great
with exception of R-508B all rest run with high temp. discharge
if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil
because you can not take moisture out of oil,


Yes you can, it's just a pain in the ass!

"Bob_Loblaw" wrote in message
...
"Tony" wrote in news:7b23i.9436$yy6.1077@trnddc05:

if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil
because you can not take moisture out of oil,



A leak on the low side doesn't mean moisture will get into the system.
It's still under pressure. How do you figure external moisture is going
to overcome the pressure of the refrigerant leaking out and infiltrate
the system?


Low side, it's not ALWAYS under pressure during operation.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Noon-Air writes:

Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities:
heat moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil
or compressor volume is not a factor.

So why is it that the coils size, volume, refrigerant quantity,
compressor size, compressor capacity are so much larger on the R-22
systems to get the same efficiency and BTU ratings as the same
equipment in R-410a????

That's an interesting issue, but it is not a matter of efficiency.

Actually it is, as R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant than R-22, because
it takes approximately half of the amount of refrigerant to do the same job.

I can only tell you what I *SEE* from direct, hands on experience, and
what I am learning from the manufacturers tech reps, and engineers.

Your observations are fine. Your analysis of those observations is
muddled as regards efficiency.

Again, as I asked before, what actual hands on experience do you have with
*ANY* R-410a refrigerant or equipment??... specifically equipment designs
manufactured after January 2006. Have you even *SEEN* any of the new
equipment?? Have you been to any of the classes or training for R-410a or
the new equipment and technologies??

The profit motive tends to overpower critical thinking. Here is some
typical blarney from a Peirce-Phelps, Inc Web page that shills for
Carrier (http://www.nopay.com/aircond_38TZA.asp):

ummmm....yeah, ok... typical Carrier sales stuff for their older equipment.

Puron® refrigerant is a more energy efficient refrigerant than Freon®*
22, and with the 38TZA, that means efficiency ratings up to 14 SEER
(Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio).

Now if it is more efficient, up to 14 SEER, then this implies there is
no R-22 system of 14 SEER or more. Which is false.

This has nothing to do with the current conversation. If your trying to
confuse the issue as you like to do, please take it somewhere else. If you
have the training, education and experience with any of the new equipment
and technologies on the market, then by all means continue, but please try
to keep on track.

Noon-Air writes:

Actually it is, as R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant than R-22,
because it takes approximately half of the amount of refrigerant to do
the same job.

No. Efficiency is a ratio of HEAT TRANSFERRED to ENERGY CONSUMED. No
mass or volume factors in that ratio.

Maybe you are a Carrier salesman or ad-copy writer, in which case facts
don't matter? "Efficiency" is then a puff word, not a physical
measurement. Or maybe you are a tradesman who passes this phoniness
along to the homeowner to justify your unearned profits from trade
regulation and collusion. You just want to believe it because otherwise
you feel you haven't honestly earned the exorbitant prices you charge.

Carrier is just making a big lie out of this, saying Puron "lends
itself" to efficiency. "Lends itself" just means "more expensive to
make an air conditioner with it" for the same efficiency. So you can
only sell the more efficient models, since the extra costs of 410a vs 22
are buried in dual-speed and other expensive gadgetry.

To you and Carrier, one 14 SEER unit is "more efficient" than another.
Baloney.

Again, as I asked before, what actual hands on experience do you have
with *ANY* R-410a refrigerant or equipment?

Tradesman's swagger doesn't enlighten you in the least on this question.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Noon-Air writes:

Actually it is, as R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant than R-22,
because it takes approximately half of the amount of refrigerant to do
the same job.

No. Efficiency is a ratio of HEAT TRANSFERRED to ENERGY CONSUMED. No
mass or volume factors in that ratio.

Maybe you are a Carrier salesman or ad-copy writer, in which case facts
don't matter? "Efficiency" is then a puff word, not a physical
measurement. Or maybe you are a tradesman who passes this phoniness
along to the homeowner to justify your unearned profits from trade
regulation and collusion. You just want to believe it because otherwise
you feel you haven't honestly earned the exorbitant prices you charge.

Carrier is just making a big lie out of this, saying Puron "lends
itself" to efficiency. "Lends itself" just means "more expensive to
make an air conditioner with it" for the same efficiency. So you can
only sell the more efficient models, since the extra costs of 410a vs 22
are buried in dual-speed and other expensive gadgetry.

To you and Carrier, one 14 SEER unit is "more efficient" than another.
Baloney.




Yeah Asshole, understand there's a difference in the two following
statements...

"R410 refrigerant is more efficient than R22"

"An R410 14 SEER unit is more efficient than a R22 14 SEER unit"

Now look at the thread title, it says "R-22 vers R410". It says nothing
about complete systems!

If you had a brain, you wouldn't be agruing about this.

Also, if you were informed, you would already know what brand Noon-Air
sells... hint, it's not a Carrier product. Now crawl back in your hole and
shut the hell up.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote



Low side, it's not ALWAYS under pressure during operation.



Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point where
a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a vacuum
pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge weighed
in.
Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with 410A,
even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
This is simply not true.



--
"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
Oh, the joys of diversity!"

Respectfully, Bob

On May 17, 10:47 pm, Richard J Kinch wrote:
Dave Martindale writes:
Sounds like you're talking about two different measures of efficiency.

Yes. My right one, and the other wrong one.

By tranplanting a 410-A compressor of the same HP into an existing
R-22 system, and charging the system with 410-A and replacing the TXV,
the SEER of the system will be greater after the changes.

What this means is that R-410_A can achieve the same SEER by using a
physically smaller compressor (smaller because mass flow rate
requirement is lower) and smaller coils. Refrigerants can actually
be rated in efficiency (EER) compared to each other, and specifically
in regards to the application. They are correct, and you are wrong.
The problem is that they didn't know why they were right.

hvacrmedic

"Bob_Loblaw" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote



Low side, it's not ALWAYS under pressure during operation.



Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point
where
a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a vacuum
pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge weighed
in.
Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with 410A,

This is Tony now Mr. Lawblow where did you read that I said even small leak.
I did not specified size of leak not that would make any difference
how big or small leak is, question here is did system lost charge and gone
in to
vacuum so that moisture can be pull in. You work on air conditions
that low side pressures are let say between 50 and 100 Psi I work on
systems that low side pressure may very between 20" vacuum and 150 Psi
and lot of cases don't have any safety protection such as low and high
pressure
cut off! "stupid design yes" but I did not built them or design them.
Not long ago I replace two scroll compressor because oil return line crack
compressor lost oil and refrigerant and you may use word committed suicide,
Why no safeties and customer did not want put one in, I install new
compressor
but report reads sorry no warrantee.
Dear Sir you need to be in business few more years before
you can even think of catch in up to my experience.
Tony
www.cas-environ.com


even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
This is simply not true.



--
"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
Oh, the joys of diversity!"

Respectfully, Bob

hvacrmedic writes:

Refrigerants can actually
be rated in efficiency (EER) compared to each other, and specifically
in regards to the application.

This is quite confused. Efficiency is a property of a refrigeration
system, not a refrigerant. It also varies with conditions. There is no
such thing as comparative efficiency of refrigerants, as opposed to system
efficiency under specific conditions.

You may be confusing refrigerant properties like molar heat capacity with
efficiency. R410a is "better" in that regard than R22, and worse in other
properties important to refrigeration. Which one performs better depends
on the systems employed and the operating conditions. You can cook up
examples where either outperforms the other.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
hvacrmedic writes:

Refrigerants can actually
be rated in efficiency (EER) compared to each other, and specifically
in regards to the application.

This is quite confused. Efficiency is a property of a refrigeration
system, not a refrigerant. It also varies with conditions. There is no
such thing as comparative efficiency of refrigerants, as opposed to system
efficiency under specific conditions.

You may be confusing refrigerant properties like molar heat capacity with
efficiency. R410a is "better" in that regard than R22, and worse in other
properties important to refrigeration. Which one performs better depends
on the systems employed and the operating conditions. You can cook up
examples where either outperforms the other.

Kinch,
Your trolling is getting a bit tiresome. Maybe if you got your nose out of
the books, and actually worked with these refrigerants and this equipment in
real life, you would have a better understanding of what we are talking
about.