When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

In article ,
ender (Jeffrey J. Kosowsky) wrote:

When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
R22
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?
Forever, maybe thru smugglers.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:02:03 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

You will need to replace your unit before R-22 is no longer available.

The article on the wall behind my desk says in 2010 no new equipment using
R22 will be manufactured. In 2020, R22 will no longer be made.

I do not know how the tax structures are set up.


"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

Not.

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:02:03 GMT, ender (Jeffrey
J. Kosowsky) wrote:

When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

You will need to replace your unit before R-22 is no
longer available.

You can still buy R12, even now. It's taxed to death, therefore expensive
as he//, but available.

I know this is above the OP's request.

I will go out in November or December of 2009 and buy the highest SEER of
R22 equipment out there and sit on it. It will be for my house only. And
in November or December of 2019, I'll buy a couple of drums of R22, just for
my house only.

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

This is Turtle.

Well I'm a hvac contractor and if tomorrow morning my condenser unit burnt up
and had to replace it. It would be a R-22 type that replaces it.

It should be 2015 to 2020 before you see the price of R-22 get up to a point
where you might call it kind of pricey. Now Bush being elected which he is not
very hard up on cutting the R-22 gas from service. These years as to getting up
there on price maybe extended by 4 or more years. It sells for about $10.00 + a
pound now and pricey it about $20.00 a pound. I will say this you will never see
R-22 not aviliable at all but just pricey.

Now here is you a thought that will cure your worry about not having R-22 or it
being too pricey to buy. Right not I / you can buy a freon to replace R-22 and
it is a little better freon to replace R-22 with R-407-C . R-407-C is a drop in
for R-22 and it is priced close to the price of R-22 right now and I think it
will drop in price as the years go by and R-22 is phased out. Look at R-12
verses R-134-A which is the replacement for R-12 and Auto zones sells it to the
public for $4.99 a can right now. R-12 was phased out and R-134-A took it's
place at a very cheap price now days. R-22 is going to be the same story and
R-407-C will replace it.

With 407-C being produced and all the tree huggers love it, R-22 phase out will
be a non-event.

Now Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 [ all the same thing ] is not all that bad of stuff
but for right now and until r-22 is started to be cut out. There is only about
10% of hvac contractor that are set up to work on this freon in a system and
finding a Puron freon contractor that is set up to work on them will be a
problem with the too few dealer now set up to deal with it. I am half way set up
to deal with it but as of right now there is NO Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 system
in my town of 10,000 pop. and why get wild about something that is not really in
use right now.

Now one point that is still not known for sure yet. Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 has
been said to be the freon of the future but nothing is set in stone yet and
NC-22 by the Japanese would or could be the norm because of no changes in the
equipment and will be a drop in for R-22 system still in service and meets the
new guide lines for a non-Ozone depleteing freon. Now R-407-C could be the Norm
too , so watch out here as to what the norm is going to be in the future.

TURTLE

Jeffery;

You'll find that the efficiency of Puron is higher. 13 SEER or higher.
Soon, the minimum SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating) will be a 13.
(The DOE - Department of Energy is mandating the change by 2005)
Manufacturers (Carrier) today have been offering Puron for about 7 -8 years
now and are finding that it is just as reliable as R-22. But, the cost of
the refrigerant is considerably higher today for R-410 (Puron) than R-22.
So repairs later may cost more. (The equipment cost is about the same
though - go figure.)

Replacement units for R-22 will continue to be available until 2010. I'd
expect that R-22 refrigerant will still be available long after you and I
won't care, but most of my customers are opting for R-410. It offers higher
energy savings and reliability, is environmentally friendly, and not a
refrigerant that will be disappearing soon.

The con side of all this is, the European Market is opting for R-407 instead
of R-410. It seems the higher pressures are cause for concern. So it may
be the U.S. will be alone in the use of R-410 down the road. Time will
tell.

Many contractors are dragging their feet on the newer refrigerant because of
it's higher pressures, and its affinity for moisture. (Cause for the HVAC
Contractor to bone up on the use of the newer gas.) Both not pleasant for
the HVAC person.

Zyp

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

"Zypher" wrote in message
link.net...
Jeffery;

You'll find that the efficiency of Puron is higher. 13 SEER or higher.
Soon, the minimum SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating) will be a 13.
(The DOE - Department of Energy is mandating the change by 2005)
Manufacturers (Carrier) today have been offering Puron for about 7 -8
years
now and are finding that it is just as reliable as R-22. But, the cost of
the refrigerant is considerably higher today for R-410 (Puron) than R-22.
So repairs later may cost more. (The equipment cost is about the same
though - go figure.)


I'll argue that fact. the equipment the 410a goes into is higher
efficiency, not the gas itself.


Replacement units for R-22 will continue to be available until 2010. I'd
expect that R-22 refrigerant will still be available long after you and I
won't care, but most of my customers are opting for R-410. It offers
higher
energy savings and reliability, is environmentally friendly, and not a
refrigerant that will be disappearing soon.


Yeah, and Carrier and Trane dropped some of the lines they had 410a in. My
opinion is that 410a is the R500 of this decade.

I was wondering that myself. One would think that R-407-C would be a much
better choice for the long haul. I too would be hesitant to go R-410a.
Anything that increases load pressures would seem to be asking for
increased difficulties.

Was it just politics that led to the U.S. going with 410a rather than
407-C?


On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:27:01 -0500, HeatMan
wrote:


I'll argue that fact. the equipment the 410a goes into is higher
efficiency, not the gas itself.


Replacement units for R-22 will continue to be available until 2010.
I'd
expect that R-22 refrigerant will still be available long after you and
I
won't care, but most of my customers are opting for R-410. It offers
higher
energy savings and reliability, is environmentally friendly, and not a
refrigerant that will be disappearing soon.


Yeah, and Carrier and Trane dropped some of the lines they had 410a in.
My
opinion is that 410a is the R500 of this decade.






--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

nevermind. I answered my own question.

See:
http://www.solvay-fluor.com/library/...000038,00.html

My memory had failed me. R407 is significantly less efficient than R410 or
R22, like way less efficient. For some reason I had remembered it
backwards. Now it makes perfect sense why we'd go with a R410 standard.

oops.

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:06:54 -0500, Astro wrote:

I was wondering that myself. One would think that R-407-C would be a much
better choice for the long haul. I too would be hesitant to go R-410a.
Anything that increases load pressures would seem to be asking for
increased difficulties.

Was it just politics that led to the U.S. going with 410a rather than
407-C?

As I understand it, all of the major companies were in the planning
stages of switching to R407c until Carrier started it's mass
advertising of R410a, thereby creating a market demand for it.
Manufacturers sell what people want to buy.

Carrier even went so far as to give it a new name "Puron" as if they
had invented the stuff, which they did not.

IMO, R410A is far more dangerous to work with than R407C.

As to R22 systems, there already are, and there always will be,
suitable substitute refrigerants.

Gary R. Lloyd

http://www.techmethod.com

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsgyq2jotv1dc2q@athlon2600...
nevermind. I answered my own question.

See:
http://www.solvay-fluor.com/library/...000038,00.html

My memory had failed me. R407 is significantly less efficient than R410 or
R22, like way less efficient. For some reason I had remembered it backwards.
Now it makes perfect sense why we'd go with a R410 standard.

oops.

This is Turtle.

Everybody thinks that 410-A will just be more effencent by it'self. I can buy a
15 seer system in R-22 and a 15 seer in 410-A. So which one is going to be more
effecent?

TURTLE

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

As I understand it, all of the major companies were in the planning
stages of switching to R407c until Carrier started it's mass
advertising of R410a, thereby creating a market demand for it.

No offense, but that is pure bullsh*t. Show me some facts to back up that
statement.

IMO, R410A is far more dangerous to work with than R407C.

Far more dangerous? It's not any more dangerous than R-22. There are the
naysayers that keep saying that "it's under twice the pressure so it's a
time bomb waiting to go off". That's a crock, too. True, that the pressures
ARE almost twice as high, but there have been no problems with exploding
units or lines springing leaks "that shot right in a worker's eye and froze
his brain!!!". Been installing and servicing 410 units for almost 12 years
now and haven't had any problems (except having to buy new manifolds and
recovery machine. If anything, a statement about the two should read: "R407
is LESS efficient that R410"


As to R22 systems, there already are, and there always will be,
suitable substitute refrigerants.

Where ARE those substitue refrigerants? What brand unit can I go pick up
(and install in a customer's house) that isn't R-22 or R-410???

Gary, you are going to have to face the fact that 410 is here to stay. Even
American Standard (Trane) has said that after this year, they will stop
manufacturing R-22 units and make only 410. I agree that there is nothing
wrong with R-22 and they should keep using the stuff, but it isn't going to
happen.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:08:41 GMT, "Red Neckerson"
wrote:


"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

As I understand it, all of the major companies were in the planning
stages of switching to R407c until Carrier started it's mass
advertising of R410a, thereby creating a market demand for it.

No offense, but that is pure bullsh*t. Show me some facts to back up that
statement.

No offense taken. This is what I was told by an engineer from York,
who was directly involved in the change-over.

IMO, R410A is far more dangerous to work with than R407C.

Far more dangerous? It's not any more dangerous than R-22. There are the
naysayers that keep saying that "it's under twice the pressure so it's a
time bomb waiting to go off". That's a crock, too. True, that the pressures
ARE almost twice as high, but there have been no problems with exploding
units or lines springing leaks "that shot right in a worker's eye and froze
his brain!!!". Been installing and servicing 410 units for almost 12 years
now and haven't had any problems (except having to buy new manifolds and
recovery machine. If anything, a statement about the two should read: "R407
is LESS efficient that R410"

More pressure = more danger

As to R22 systems, there already are, and there always will be,
suitable substitute refrigerants.

Where ARE those substitue refrigerants? What brand unit can I go pick up
(and install in a customer's house) that isn't R-22 or R-410???

There are several drop-in replacements available, and in a pinch
propane will work.

Gary, you are going to have to face the fact that 410 is here to stay. Even
American Standard (Trane) has said that after this year, they will stop
manufacturing R-22 units and make only 410. I agree that there is nothing
wrong with R-22 and they should keep using the stuff, but it isn't going to
happen.

I have not disputed the obvious fact that R410A is here to stay.

Gary R. Lloyd

http://www.techmethod.com

Great point. It always comes down to the SYSTEM. Fundamental limits will
be set by the properties of the refrigerant, but consumers only care about
what the system as implemented does.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 01:44:44 -0600, TURTLE wrote:


"Astro" wrote in message
newspsgyq2jotv1dc2q@athlon2600...
nevermind. I answered my own question.

See:
http://www.solvay-fluor.com/library/...000038,00.html

My memory had failed me. R407 is significantly less efficient than R410
or
R22, like way less efficient. For some reason I had remembered it
backwards.
Now it makes perfect sense why we'd go with a R410 standard.

oops.

This is Turtle.

Everybody thinks that 410-A will just be more effencent by it'self. I
can buy a
15 seer system in R-22 and a 15 seer in 410-A. So which one is going to
be more
effecent?

TURTLE

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

I have not disputed the obvious fact that R410A is here to stay.

I know. AND I see YOUR point. It was before my time when they came out with
that "great replacement" R500, but I know when I started in this business I
had to carry that damn jug of it around! Only used it twice (on a couple old
CARRIER units!!). So I understand why a lot of people are a little leary
about accepting 410 as THE replacement..

I figure in another year we won't need air conditioning because they will
have PCUs (Personal Comfort Units) that you carry around in your pocket.....

;-]

"Astro" wrote in message
newspsgz5svqov1dc2q@athlon2600...
Great point. It always comes down to the SYSTEM. Fundamental limits will be
set by the properties of the refrigerant, but consumers only care about what
the system as implemented does.


This is Turtle.

When the manufactors come out with a reasoniable priced system of 18 seer + with
R-410-A which R-22 has not got to. I would be swaded to go with the R-410-A type
freon systems. I know the time is coming for everybody to get the set freon that
will be used but till they decide on R-410-A , Puron, AZ-20, R-407-C, NC-22, [
still in the picture R-134-A ] , and here is a wild one [ the EPA says we just
discovered a new 1000-G stuff that will be better than anything known so far ] .
So i will say this --- No freon is set in stone as being the freon to be used in
the future as of now. Watch out for the door is still open.

TURTLE

"Red Neckerson" wrote in message
news:4jTid.54$bH2.24@trnddc09...

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

I have not disputed the obvious fact that R410A is here to stay.

I know. AND I see YOUR point. It was before my time when they came out with
that "great replacement" R500, but I know when I started in this business I
had to carry that damn jug of it around! Only used it twice (on a couple old
CARRIER units!!). So I understand why a lot of people are a little leary about
accepting 410 as THE replacement..

I figure in another year we won't need air conditioning because they will have
PCUs (Personal Comfort Units) that you carry around in your pocket.....

;-]

This is Turtle.

Red When you have to set the PSH at 600 to 700 psi you do increase the change of
doing more damage if a line blows off.

It's still up in the air as to 410-A being the norm but it sure is looking that
away.

Now 407-C will still be around here for a long time and i think people will hold
on to the 22 units till the cows come home.

Also I'm going to sell 22 units till the last minte and then go the new stuff or
R-410-A. The 407-C will be good enough to take care of the 22 units sold now.

TURTLE

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

I would be more concerned with the quality of equipment and installer not
the GAS inside.

"Hugo Drax" wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

I would be more concerned with the quality of equipment and installer not
the GAS inside.

True.

Manufacturers may stop using R-22 in their units within the next few years,
but there is so much of it stockpiled out there that it may even come DOWN
in price. Just my own belief: Puron (R-410A) is here to stay, so don't be
afraid of IT either.

As The Drax Man said: Worry about the person installing it more than the
brand or refrigerant......

I have run into a few that will not service systems with puron, said
something about the higher pressures, not that many in our area for them to
worry about it either ?


"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:ui8rd.9767$xk5.8080@trnddc09...

"Hugo Drax" wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey J. Kosowsky" wrote in message
...
When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true
R22 or with Puron?
If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at
reasonable cost)?

Thanks

I would be more concerned with the quality of equipment and installer
not
the GAS inside.

True.

Manufacturers may stop using R-22 in their units within the next few
years,
but there is so much of it stockpiled out there that it may even come DOWN
in price. Just my own belief: Puron (R-410A) is here to stay, so don't be
afraid of IT either.

As The Drax Man said: Worry about the person installing it more than the
brand or refrigerant......

"MC" wrote

I have run into a few that will not service systems with puron, said
something about the higher pressures, not that many in our area for them
to
worry about it either ?



Again, my own opinion, but any contractor that refuses to work on them will
run out of work after awhile (when it comes to A/Cs and heatpumps).

Agreed, it is a PITA to have to go out and buy new equipment (just to handle
R410), but Puron is here to stay and they are going to have to work on it
sooner or later......