OT to some degree for some groups: My friend bought a teflon-coated
cookie sheet, for baking cookies, made by Farberware.

The first time it worked great, no-stick. It was so easy to clean up,
a few days later she figured she had time and would make more.

The second time with the same recipe, everything stuck to the tray.
It was a lot of work for her to clean off what stuck, and some of it
went all over the floor and counter when she cleaned it.

How could this happen? How is is possible?

She made macaroons, the very same recipe: coconut, vanilla, sweetened
condensed milk. She preheated the oven the same way.

She bought the tray at a store that claims to sell various kinds of
seconds. "Ollie's Bargain Outlet is Pennsylvania, Maryland, and
Delaware's largest retailer of closeout, surplus and salvage
merchandise.". Close-outs, discontinued items, things bought from
stores going out of business, etc. She paid 6.95, and the label said
"Their price 18.95" although I bet a Farberware cookie sheet normally
sells for some price in between.

Could it be a second because it works great the first time and is no
longer non-stick the second time. How is that possible?



FTR, I had to check the spelling of macaroon, and this is the recipe
in the dictionary: a drop cookie made of egg whites, sugar, usually
almond paste or coconut, and sometimes a little flour. But I have had
hers and they're good.

Also, [French macaron, from Italian dialectal maccarone, dumpling,
macaroni.]

Also 1611, "small sweet cake consisting largely of ground almonds,"
from Fr. macaron (16c.), from It. dial. maccarone (see macaroni). Fr.
meaning said to have been invented 1552 by Rabelais. The -oon ending
was conventional in 15c.-17c. Eng. to add emphasis to borrowings of
Fr. nouns ending in stressed -on.

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.

FTR, I had to check the spelling of macaroon, and this is the recipe
in the dictionary: a drop cookie made of egg whites, sugar, usually
almond paste or coconut, and sometimes a little flour. But I have had
hers and they're good.

They might be good; they just aren't macaroons.

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 02:25:58 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


FTR, I had to check the spelling of macaroon, and this is the recipe
in the dictionary: a drop cookie made of egg whites, sugar, usually
almond paste or coconut, and sometimes a little flour. But I have had
hers and they're good.

They might be good; they just aren't macaroons.

You make a good point. I don't know whether I should tell her.

mm wrote:

The first time it worked great, no-stick. It was so easy to clean up,
a few days later she figured she had time and would make more.

The second time with the same recipe, everything stuck to the tray.
It was a lot of work for her to clean off what stuck, and some of it
went all over the floor and counter when she cleaned it.

How could this happen? How is is possible?


Maybe the sugar caramelized and then polymerized onto the cookie sheet.
If so, that doesn't necessarily need to come off -- it's like the
seasoning on a cast iron pan.

But if I made cookies (and I say "if" because I have never been
successful at making them -- quick breads, pies, cakes, regular food,
fine -- but cookies never turn out) I would rather use a silicone baking
liner (example brand: Silpat) on a regular cookie sheet than Teflon
anything.

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.

The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated metal
can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The only thing
wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue. Wash it
thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads. The longer
one waits, the tougher the film gets.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote in news:6IadnQgE3Pc6-
:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.

The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated metal
can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The only thing
wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue. Wash it
thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads. The longer
one waits, the tougher the film gets.

Jerry

I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking crusted
stuff in;it really attacks organics.It will not harm aluminum,but soaking
gets off baked on crud.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
Jerry Avins wrote in news:6IadnQgE3Pc6-
:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.
The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated metal
can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The only thing
wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue. Wash it
thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads. The longer
one waits, the tougher the film gets.

Jerry

I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking crusted
stuff in;it really attacks organics.It will not harm aluminum,but soaking
gets off baked on crud.

Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful, but
rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested first.
I would stir a teaspoonful in a clear glass of water. Once all that will
has dissolved, the presence on any grit ought to be evident.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote in
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Jerry Avins wrote in news:6IadnQgE3Pc6-
:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.
The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated
metal can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The
only thing wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue.
Wash it thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads.
The longer one waits, the tougher the film gets.

Jerry

I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking
crusted stuff in;it really attacks organics.It will not harm
aluminum,but soaking gets off baked on crud.

Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful,
but rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested
first. I would stir a teaspoonful in a clear glass of water. Once all
that will has dissolved, the presence on any grit ought to be evident.

Jerry

Did I say "rub"? No. I said "soak".

You get a ZERO in reading comprehension.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
Jerry Avins wrote in
:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Jerry Avins wrote in news:6IadnQgE3Pc6-
:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.
The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated
metal can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The
only thing wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue.
Wash it thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads.
The longer one waits, the tougher the film gets.

Jerry
I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking
crusted stuff in;it really attacks organics.It will not harm
aluminum,but soaking gets off baked on crud.
Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful,
but rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested
first. I would stir a teaspoonful in a clear glass of water. Once all
that will has dissolved, the presence on any grit ought to be evident.

Jerry

Did I say "rub"? No. I said "soak".

You get a ZERO in reading comprehension.

You don't think a warning to the unwary is appropriate? You're not quite
accurate about a long soak not affecting aluminum. Expect a harmless
white film. For those inclined to use dishwasher detergent and might
want to rub anyway, prepare a solution and strain it. I'd use a
handkerchief or a piece of old sheet in a funnel.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 11:22:13 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.

The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated metal
can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The only thing
wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue. Wash it
thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads. The longer
one waits, the tougher the film gets.

So there is a residue one can't see, that didn't come off with just
soap? Or the dishwasher?

I'll send her a copy of this post, but I thought the point of Teflon
was that it is easy to clean.

Jerry

mm wrote:
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 11:22:13 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

mm wrote:

...

I think she never had a Teflon cookie sheet before.
The trouble with Teflon is that it's so hard to clean. Uncoated metal
can be rubbed down with steel wool or other abrasives. The only thing
wrong with her cookie sheet is a coating of some residue. Wash it
thoroughly with one of those knitted-plastic scouring pads. The longer
one waits, the tougher the film gets.

So there is a residue one can't see, that didn't come off with just
soap? Or the dishwasher?

I'll send her a copy of this post, but I thought the point of Teflon
was that it is easy to clean.

Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I use uncoated steel turners on my Teflon pans, but only turners that
I've polished smooth so they don't scratch. When a pan gets scratched
and stuff sticks, I throw it out. My newest pan is about 7 years old.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" in :
Jim Yanik wrote:

I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking
crusted stuff in; it really attacks organics. ...

Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful, but
rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested first

Hi Jerry, Jim Yanik's point may have been the same one I offer on this
subject..

Cleaning nonstick surfaces is not about scrubbing, but loosening the
residues chemically. Then they'll either float off, or come off with a wipe
from a sponge. Various cleaning agents that loosen organic material are
good for this, they will soften or saponify the food residues. (Avoiding
abrasion is fundamental to nonstick coatings. When PTFE or "Teflon"
coatings first appeared, they were described like highly inert waxes, to be
handled accordingly. Commercial pan coatings have since gotten tougher.
Look in a restaurant supplier with a display room and you'll see arrays of
inexpensive nonstick fry pans of identical size going up in durability, and
price.)

Conventional powdered dishwasher detergent is based mostly or entirely on
TSP (trisodium phosphate) which softens organic matter, just like ammonia
and other alkalies (that attack aluminum more aggressively). It's excellent
for soaking food deposits, not just on Teflon, I use it all the time. (TSP
also is sold in bulk as an all-purpose cleaner concentrate.) That's the
relevance of dishwasher detergent to nonstick coatings, as far as I know.

Finally there's a "seasoning" ritual for nonstick coatings, analogous to
(but briefer and lighter than) for cast iron. This maintains the like-new
stick resistance. After cleaning and drying, you rub with a tiny bit of oil
and heat a bit then rub off the exces. (More or less.) It has to do with
filling micro-pores if I remember. But go by instructions that the
manufacturers give, not my offhand memory. (Do NOT ask for advice about
that subtle point on an online forum like these. Experience shows you will
get even more heartfelt misinformation than drivers get from passers-by when
their car is stuck in mud.)

Max Hauser wrote:
"Jerry Avins" in :
Jim Yanik wrote:
I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking
crusted stuff in; it really attacks organics. ...

Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful, but
rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested first

Hi Jerry, Jim Yanik's point may have been the same one I offer on this
subject..

Cleaning nonstick surfaces is not about scrubbing, but loosening the
residues chemically. Then they'll either float off, or come off with a wipe
from a sponge. Various cleaning agents that loosen organic material are
good for this, they will soften or saponify the food residues. (Avoiding
abrasion is fundamental to nonstick coatings. When PTFE or "Teflon"
coatings first appeared, they were described like highly inert waxes, to be
handled accordingly. Commercial pan coatings have since gotten tougher.
Look in a restaurant supplier with a display room and you'll see arrays of
inexpensive nonstick fry pans of identical size going up in durability, and
price.)

Conventional powdered dishwasher detergent is based mostly or entirely on
TSP (trisodium phosphate) which softens organic matter, just like ammonia
and other alkalies (that attack aluminum more aggressively). It's excellent
for soaking food deposits, not just on Teflon, I use it all the time. (TSP
also is sold in bulk as an all-purpose cleaner concentrate.) That's the
relevance of dishwasher detergent to nonstick coatings, as far as I know.

The relevance must depend on location, then. Phosphate detergents are
not allowed in many locations, including, I think, all of New Jersey.
Both Cascade and All sold there include grit that appears to be fine
sand, as one can see when some is dissolved in a transparent glass.

Finally there's a "seasoning" ritual for nonstick coatings, analogous to
(but briefer and lighter than) for cast iron. This maintains the like-new
stick resistance. After cleaning and drying, you rub with a tiny bit of oil
and heat a bit then rub off the exces. (More or less.) It has to do with
filling micro-pores if I remember. But go by instructions that the
manufacturers give, not my offhand memory. (Do NOT ask for advice about
that subtle point on an online forum like these. Experience shows you will
get even more heartfelt misinformation than drivers get from passers-by when
their car is stuck in mud.)

Good point!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Max Hauser" wrote in
:

"Jerry Avins" in :
Jim Yanik wrote:

I find that automatic dishwasher detergent is good for soaking
crusted stuff in; it really attacks organics. ...

Many dishwasher detergents contain grit. The chemicals are powerful,
but rubbing Teflon with it would be ill advised unless it was tested
first

Hi Jerry, Jim Yanik's point may have been the same one I offer on this
subject..

Cleaning nonstick surfaces is not about scrubbing, but loosening the
residues chemically. Then they'll either float off, or come off with
a wipe from a sponge. Various cleaning agents that loosen organic
material are good for this, they will soften or saponify the food
residues. (Avoiding abrasion is fundamental to nonstick coatings.
When PTFE or "Teflon" coatings first appeared, they were described
like highly inert waxes, to be handled accordingly. Commercial pan
coatings have since gotten tougher. Look in a restaurant supplier with
a display room and you'll see arrays of inexpensive nonstick fry pans
of identical size going up in durability, and price.)

Conventional powdered dishwasher detergent is based mostly or entirely
on TSP (trisodium phosphate) which softens organic matter, just like
ammonia and other alkalies (that attack aluminum more aggressively).
It's excellent for soaking food deposits, not just on Teflon, I use it
all the time. (TSP also is sold in bulk as an all-purpose cleaner
concentrate.) That's the relevance of dishwasher detergent to
nonstick coatings, as far as I know.

Finally there's a "seasoning" ritual for nonstick coatings, analogous
to (but briefer and lighter than) for cast iron. This maintains the
like-new stick resistance. After cleaning and drying, you rub with a
tiny bit of oil and heat a bit then rub off the exces. (More or
less.) It has to do with filling micro-pores if I remember. But go
by instructions that the manufacturers give, not my offhand memory.
(Do NOT ask for advice about that subtle point on an online forum like
these. Experience shows you will get even more heartfelt
misinformation than drivers get from passers-by when their car is
stuck in mud.)





I use liquid or "gel" auto-dishwasher detergent;I haven't found any grit in
them,and they dissolve much better than the powders.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:

...

I use liquid or "gel" auto-dishwasher detergent;I haven't found any grit in
them,and they dissolve much better than the powders.

I'll check it out. If the cost is comparable, I'll try it.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" in
:
Max Hauser wrote:

Conventional powdered dishwasher detergent [is] excellent for soaking
food deposits, not just on Teflon, I use it all the time. That's the
relevance of dishwasher detergent to
nonstick coatings, as far as I know.

... Phosphate detergents are not allowed in many locations, including, I
think, all of New Jersey. Both Cascade and All sold there include grit
that appears to be fine sand, as one can see when some is dissolved in a
transparent glass.

Yep, sorry, I remembered (after posting) that the phosphate content was
phased way down because of that issue (many of you know about it -- the
"fertilizer" effect of phosphates generating parasitic algae growth in
waterways etc.). I don't know the identity of your mystery granules,
Jerry -- don't they eventually dissolve in water? I have yet to encounter
any insulubles in a US powdered dishwasher detergent (reluctant solubles,
yes) and I don't think abrasives would serve well inside a dishwasher either
(with its pump, moving parts, etc.).

Main point remains: What's relevant to nonstick coatings is food-loosening
chemical action, including the soluble parts of powdered dishwasher
detergent. Mild ammonia solution should also work (if the nonstick coating
is intact, it protects the aluminum substrate from pitting by the ammonia.)

A parallel, but heavier-duty, loosening action is when you apply lye
solutions like "Easy-Off" (tm) on oven surfaces with baked-on fatty
residues. In a few minutes, especially with a little heat, it turns those
into soapy residues instead, easy to sponge off.

Max Hauser wrote:
"Jerry Avins" in
:
Max Hauser wrote:

Conventional powdered dishwasher detergent [is] excellent for soaking
food deposits, not just on Teflon, I use it all the time. That's the
relevance of dishwasher detergent to
nonstick coatings, as far as I know.
... Phosphate detergents are not allowed in many locations, including, I
think, all of New Jersey. Both Cascade and All sold there include grit
that appears to be fine sand, as one can see when some is dissolved in a
transparent glass.

Yep, sorry, I remembered (after posting) that the phosphate content was
phased way down because of that issue (many of you know about it -- the
"fertilizer" effect of phosphates generating parasitic algae growth in
waterways etc.). I don't know the identity of your mystery granules,
Jerry -- don't they eventually dissolve in water? I have yet to encounter
any insulubles in a US powdered dishwasher detergent (reluctant solubles,
yes) and I don't think abrasives would serve well inside a dishwasher either
(with its pump, moving parts, etc.).

Main point remains: What's relevant to nonstick coatings is food-loosening
chemical action, including the soluble parts of powdered dishwasher
detergent. Mild ammonia solution should also work (if the nonstick coating
is intact, it protects the aluminum substrate from pitting by the ammonia.)

A parallel, but heavier-duty, loosening action is when you apply lye
solutions like "Easy-Off" (tm) on oven surfaces with baked-on fatty
residues. In a few minutes, especially with a little heat, it turns those
into soapy residues instead, easy to sponge off.

I go after polymerized oils on aluminum with paint remover, but many
here are as squeamish about its use as some are about (can I write it?)
maggots.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:

Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I don't think DuPont has lost the Teflon trademark as they did nylon and
neoprene.
They do sell TFE copolymers marked as Teflon. I think pure PTFE is used in
the cookware finishes but other materials are added for adhesion to the
metal and toughening. DuPont is pretty picky about composition and use of
their finishes but there are other producers that are not. I suspect in OP
original question that there was another transient finish on the sheet.
Frank

frank.logullo wrote:
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:

Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I don't think DuPont has lost the Teflon trademark as they did nylon and
neoprene.

I didn't know they lost those. In the 50s, "nylon" was Israeli slang for
what people now call "cool".

They do sell TFE copolymers marked as Teflon. I think pure PTFE is used in
the cookware finishes but other materials are added for adhesion to the
metal and toughening. DuPont is pretty picky about composition and use of
their finishes but there are other producers that are not. I suspect in OP
original question that there was another transient finish on the sheet.

Pure PTFE is white.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:15:08 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

frank.logullo wrote:
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:

Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I don't think DuPont has lost the Teflon trademark as they did nylon and
neoprene.

I didn't know they lost those. In the 50s, "nylon" was Israeli slang for
what people now call "cool".

In 2006, last time I was over, "nylon" was the standard word for a
plastic bag that you get at the grocery or drugstore.

They do sell TFE copolymers marked as Teflon. I think pure PTFE is used in
the cookware finishes but other materials are added for adhesion to the
metal and toughening. DuPont is pretty picky about composition and use of
their finishes but there are other producers that are not. I suspect in OP
original question that there was another transient finish on the sheet.

Pure PTFE is white.

Jerry

I do hope none of the smart people on this NG are [still] using
Teflon cookware! I'm not so smart, but I do listen to my gut,
so I never, ever, bought Teflon cookware, and now they're finally
finding out that some of that icky stuff can pass into
your food. Ohne mich!

aspasia wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:15:08 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

frank.logullo wrote:
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:
Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I don't think DuPont has lost the Teflon trademark as they did nylon and
neoprene.
I didn't know they lost those. In the 50s, "nylon" was Israeli slang for
what people now call "cool".

In 2006, last time I was over, "nylon" was the standard word for a
plastic bag that you get at the grocery or drugstore.
They do sell TFE copolymers marked as Teflon. I think pure PTFE is used in
the cookware finishes but other materials are added for adhesion to the
metal and toughening. DuPont is pretty picky about composition and use of
their finishes but there are other producers that are not. I suspect in OP
original question that there was another transient finish on the sheet.
Pure PTFE is white.

Jerry

I do hope none of the smart people on this NG are [still] using
Teflon cookware! I'm not so smart, but I do listen to my gut,
so I never, ever, bought Teflon cookware, and now they're finally
finding out that some of that icky stuff can pass into
your food. Ohne mich!

I'm much more concerned about what leeches out of plastic water and soda
bottles.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

aspasia wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:15:08 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

frank.logullo wrote:
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:
Dried-on starch just peels off if the Teflon doesn't have microscratches
from dishwasher-detergent grit (I always wash mine by hand.) Teflon is a
brand name. The stuff on utensils is modified, not pure PTFE
(polytetrafluoroethylene), but it's called Teflon anyway. (Pure PTFE
sticks to nothing, not even utensils.) Most things come off a Teflon pan
more easily than they'll come off most other surfaces. It's hard to
clean because it it's hard to deal with a thin film that does stick.

I don't think DuPont has lost the Teflon trademark as they did nylon and
neoprene.
I didn't know they lost those. In the 50s, "nylon" was Israeli slang for
what people now call "cool".

In 2006, last time I was over, "nylon" was the standard word for a
plastic bag that you get at the grocery or drugstore.
They do sell TFE copolymers marked as Teflon. I think pure PTFE is used in
the cookware finishes but other materials are added for adhesion to the
metal and toughening. DuPont is pretty picky about composition and use of
their finishes but there are other producers that are not. I suspect in OP
original question that there was another transient finish on the sheet.
Pure PTFE is white.

Jerry

I do hope none of the smart people on this NG are [still] using
Teflon cookware! I'm not so smart, but I do listen to my gut,
so I never, ever, bought Teflon cookware, and now they're finally
finding out that some of that icky stuff can pass into
your food. Ohne mich!

I'm much more concerned about what leeches out of plastic water and soda
bottles.

You got that right! I try to buy only in glass containers. However,
there IS a difference in leech-ability between kinds of plastic
beverage containers; wish I could remember where I saw the article

But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

This site:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=202093

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Safe drinking! (especially YOUNG CHILDRE

aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:


But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.
Frank

frank.logullo wrote:
aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:


But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.

Thalidomide and Celebrex, among others, also had FDA approval.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:24:18 -0400, "frank.logullo"
wrote:


aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:


But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.
Frank

Metal cans are lined, but I don't think glass bottles are.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:24:18 -0400, "frank.logullo"
wrote:


aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:


But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.

Nominated for least scientific statement of this or any millennium.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:24:18 -0400, "frank.logullo"
wrote:


aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:


But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable
toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are
that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food
products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.
Frank

Metal cans are lined, but I don't think glass bottles are.

Probably not. Scratch resistant coatings can be outside.
Contact would be drinking out of bottle. But, then there is the cap and
liner which contacts drink.
It's pretty hard to avoid plastic. For the chemophobics responding, EC and
Asian packaging regulations are not as stringent as US FDA.
Frank

aspasia wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:24:18 -0400, "frank.logullo"
wrote:

aspasia wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:51:31 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

But both Teflon and plastic are legitimate areas of concern.
Unfortunately, the word does not get out to the very people who
need to be informed...

has some comparative info on plastic beverage containers.

Both Teflon and plastic bottles, mostly PET, have FDA approval for food
contact. It takes years to get approval and includes considerable toxicity
testing of all the ingredients in the plastic as well as extracts of the
plastics. You may like glass bottles or aluminum cans but chances are that
these also have polymeric, FDA approved coatings. Toxicity of food products
lies not in the packaging but in the food itself.

Nominated for least scientific statement of this or any millennium.

It's like saying that someone shot full of bullets has lead poisoning.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

aspasia in news

I do hope none of the smart people on this NG are [still] using Teflon
cookware! ... now they're finally finding out that some of that icky
stuff can pass into
your food.

If you have a reference to something new here, aspasia, please post. The
rest of this is about what's not new.

Teflon (PTFE) cookware safety is among the oldest topics of public Internet
food-related discussion. I participated in a cookware thread about this
nearly 25 years ago on ancestors of some of these newsgroups. The classic,
ancient issue (publicized since 1960s) is volatile gas hazards under extreme
heat (exploited, as a minor but interesting side note, for working plasma in
practical "ion drive" engines for spacecraft outside atmosphere). A
secondary topic in recent years concerned hazards or disposal of chemicals
used in PTFE manufacture, basically unrelated to the home risks problem, but
some people confused them, which clarified little. Below is a summary I
posted to a food forum in 2006.

--
Teflon decomposition to fluorinated gasses happens under extreme heat such
as empty pans left on a flame until they glow. Warning: ANY cookware left
unattended with food in it routinely produces toxic and/or explosive gases
too (I can tell you first-hand) so this is not really a "Teflon" issue when
viewed in perspective, and the person who eschews Teflon from practical fear
of heating pans unattended has a larger problem and should not cook. What
is peculiar to Teflon plastics is that they can form toxic gases under these
conditions without food present. That is only part of the story. The other
part, which for some reason is less popular, is that this hazard doesn't
occur, at all, if the pans are used normally. Actually, compared to some
popular metallic cookware surfaces, Teflon is demonstrably less reactive and
less contaminating in normal use. Also, Teflon-coated aluminum skillets are
used stressfully, day and night, in US commercial kitchens. Go to a
restaurant-supply dealer and look what's hanging up on the wall.

I talked recently to a home-cookware dealer who agreed that every few years,
a new set of consumers gets anxious over partial or garbled accounts of this
issue, despite the extent of daily use of these pans in homes, restaurants,
and cafeterias without incident. "Can you imagine the lawsuits," he said,
if there were?

The reason I stress this subject (besides having run into it online for
20-some years) is that it's one of those technical issues that's popular but
a little complex. Not too complex to be comprehensible, but too complex for
one-liners and sound bites. I was talking to a chemistry-professor friend
lately, a cooking fanatic who knows this issue (and the ins and outs and
history of Teflon). We've both dealt with other technical subjects of this
kind in our work, and recently I encountered yet another one. People got
anxious after hearing a little bit about it, but didn't go further, to put
it into perspective (which is necessary for an informed assessment). It
seems that once they've formed a hasty emotional judgement, many people want
to cling to that. It may be in the nature of these situations. As Pope
said, a little info can be intoxicating, the larger dose sobers you.

Max Hauser wrote:
aspasia in news
I do hope none of the smart people on this NG are [still] using Teflon
cookware! ... now they're finally finding out that some of that icky
stuff can pass into
your food.

If you have a reference to something new here, aspasia, please post. The
rest of this is about what's not new.

[rations exposition snipped]

The reason I stress this subject (besides having run into it online for
20-some years) is that it's one of those technical issues that's popular but
a little complex. Not too complex to be comprehensible, but too complex for
one-liners and sound bites. I was talking to a chemistry-professor friend
lately, a cooking fanatic who knows this issue (and the ins and outs and
history of Teflon). We've both dealt with other technical subjects of this
kind in our work, and recently I encountered yet another one. People got
anxious after hearing a little bit about it, but didn't go further, to put
it into perspective (which is necessary for an informed assessment). It
seems that once they've formed a hasty emotional judgment, many people want
to cling to that. It may be in the nature of these situations. As Pope
said, a little info can be intoxicating, the larger dose sobers you.

Max,

It is, as you say, an emotional issue for some people, not subject to
rational analysis. I think I know part of the reason. There are many
hazards we have to contend with -- exhaust particulates, contaminated
water, adulterated food -- that we can do little or nothing about. An
issue like Teflon can provide an artificial feeling of empowerment: we
*can* do something! Even if it doesn't matter, it feels good.

I built a piece of equipment used on the Mercury space capsule. The
electronics was entirely encapsulated in isocyanate foam to provide
vibration resistance. I was not allowed to use wire insulated with vinyl
because vinyl releases noxious fumes (phosgene) when overheated.
Instead, I had to use Teflon (which releases fluorine, but at a much
higher temperature).

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" in :
...
I think I know part of the reason. There are many hazards we have to
contend with -- exhaust particulates, contaminated water, adulterated
food -- that we can do little or nothing about. An issue like Teflon can
provide an artificial feeling of empowerment: we *can* do something! Even
if it doesn't matter, it feels good.

Unfortunately what feels good can do bad, as you know. That false feeling
of empowerment can lead people wholeheartedly to unwise decisions. (Here
I'm thinking more widely than Teflon. Few people, if any, will be harmed
directly by NOT using Teflon-coated cookware, whatever their rationale.)


I built a piece of equipment used on the Mercury space capsule. . . . I
was not allowed to use wire insulated with vinyl because vinyl releases
noxious fumes (phosgene) when overheated. Instead, I had to use Teflon
(which releases fluorine, but at a much higher temperature).

Considering all the available data about possible (but VERY unlikely)
hazards around us, and what glorious demagoguery they'd make (and sometimes,
do make), you or I could become guru-prophets of the Nasty Risks They Aren't
Telling You About (note the useful word "they") -- cynically working this
anxiety response to empower _ourselves._ (That is of course, if you or I
didn't have a conscience.)

A thought for the day. -- Max

Codicil about those ion drives (since you too encountered Teflon
volatilization in space-related projects, Jerry):

I handled such a drive in the 1970s at a space laboratory, but did not work
on it. In conventional chemical rocket fuels, a classic objective is
concentrated energy, formally "specific impulse" (SI). Also known as oomph.

High-performance chemical fuels deliver SI circa 200 or 300 seconds or more.
(For any unfamiliar reader, the number has practical meaning, it's the time
a fuel can produce thrust equal to its own weight -- so to speak, lift
itself off the ground.) Chemicals with higher SI tend also to be harder to
handle.

In the 1970s, ion drives were said to deliver 40,000 seconds or more of SI.
They actually got their energy from electricity. If you have a space probe
that is well away from any planet, a long gentle thrust can get you going
very fast. You burn a Teflon "candle" hot enough to make a plasma, which
will take an electrical charge. Then you use your solar panels as a source
of electric field to accelerate the ions and send them out the back.
Inevitably if they go one way, you go the other. I understand it produced
low accelerations (much less than earth gravity) so not useful for launching
a craft from the ground, but very useful in interplanetary space where also
the sun is much brighter, and electricity is "free."

Think of this, next time you marvel at the nonstick properties of your
properly used Teflon cookware!


-- Max

Max Hauser wrote:
Codicil about those ion drives (since you too encountered Teflon
volatilization in space-related projects, Jerry):

I handled such a drive in the 1970s at a space laboratory, but did not work
on it. In conventional chemical rocket fuels, a classic objective is
concentrated energy, formally "specific impulse" (SI). Also known as oomph.

High-performance chemical fuels deliver SI circa 200 or 300 seconds or more.
(For any unfamiliar reader, the number has practical meaning, it's the time
a fuel can produce thrust equal to its own weight -- so to speak, lift
itself off the ground.) Chemicals with higher SI tend also to be harder to
handle.

In the 1970s, ion drives were said to deliver 40,000 seconds or more of SI.
They actually got their energy from electricity. If you have a space probe
that is well away from any planet, a long gentle thrust can get you going
very fast. You burn a Teflon "candle" hot enough to make a plasma, which
will take an electrical charge. Then you use your solar panels as a source
of electric field to accelerate the ions and send them out the back.
Inevitably if they go one way, you go the other. I understand it produced
low accelerations (much less than earth gravity) so not useful for launching
a craft from the ground, but very useful in interplanetary space where also
the sun is much brighter, and electricity is "free."

Think of this, next time you marvel at the nonstick properties of your
properly used Teflon cookware!

Well, this is a cooking and chat newsgroup, so I guess it's OK so chat
about my feeling that the ion-drive SI numbers were cooked. :-) Other
fuels were taxed with bringing their own energy to the game. Ion drives
use an external energy source not weighed into the accounting. It's
rather like concluding that electric motors are far lighter than
internal-combustion engines of the peak same power without accounting
for the weight of the battery. Do you remember when the term "prime
mover" had more prominence than it does now?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" in :

... Well, this is a cooking and chat newsgroup, so I guess it's OK so chat
about my feeling that the ion-drive SI numbers were cooked. :-)

You could almost say it was nothing but hot air. (Forgive me, bad company
lately. Physicians discussing research related to liver damage, after which
one of them said, three times, that Web-based medical advice must be viewed
with a jaundiced eye ...)

Other fuels were taxed with bringing their own energy to the game.

Yes, I suppose, Jerry: That would be important to contenders at the Rocket
Fuel Olympics, for fairness. Much as air-breathing engines (including
SCRamjets) have advantages over rockets because they poach part of their
supplies en-route. The SI number is just cited for drama. I can't think of
many situations where one could actually use a rocket in place of an ion
engine or vice versa. People have tried hard, on the other hand, to develop
air-breathing transatmospheric craft [translation: space shuttles]. One of
those people told me (at the dFVLR) in 1985 that this could potentially
replace the huge rockets the US space shuttles needed to get into orbit. A
dangerous configuration, with that big external oxygen tank. "Don't be
surprised if you wake up one morning and hear that one of the space shuttles
has exploded." (When that happened exactly, a few months later, I sent a
telegram right away, regretting that he was right. He wrote back
predicting that the disaster would be traced to some minor component, taken
for granted: "a clevis pin, or an O-ring.")

Aside from being tiresome, this applies to cooking how?

Chuck wrote:
Aside from being tiresome, this applies to cooking how?

Since you quoted nothing, I can only go by the subject of the thread.
People cook in Teflon. It scares some of them. We think it needn't.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Jerry Avins" in
:
Chuck wrote:
Aside from being tiresome, this applies to cooking how?

Since you quoted nothing, I can only go by the subject of the thread.
People cook in Teflon. It scares some of them. We think it needn't.

Jerry
--

To that _mot croquant_ (aside: ever worked as an editor, Jerry?) I grant
that spacecraft are afield, but you never know where a technical principle
can have unexpected utility. I could indeed tell you some stories.