We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

Electrical tape on the ends will work. There are retrofit heavy fixture/ fan
boxes, like Westinghouse 1100 that will install through the existing hole
and expand inside the ceiling, joist to joist, to hang your chandelier or
fan from





wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.


Like RBM said, there are ways to install stronger boxes. Tell the
electrician the situation so he's got the right "thing" with him when he
arrives. As far as covering the wires, it's a good idea, but the other
option is to avoid letting anyone play on the ceiling.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Electrical tape on the ends will work. There are retrofit heavy fixture/
fan boxes, like Westinghouse 1100 that will install through the existing
hole and expand inside the ceiling, joist to joist, to hang your
chandelier or fan from


I wouldn't just put electrical tape on without putting wire nuts on first.
And does the circuit dead-end there or is the power usede further on ?





wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

On Mar 18, 5:17 pm, wrote:
We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

Since the wire is in the ceiling there's nothing to worry about. If
you are worried anyway just make sure the power is off to that wire.
Then use a wire nut or black tape.

Hire a professional.


On 18 Mar 2007 15:17:46 -0700, wrote:

We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Electrical tape on the ends will work. There are retrofit heavy fixture/
fan
boxes, like Westinghouse 1100 that will install through the existing hole
and expand inside the ceiling, joist to joist, to hang your chandelier or
fan from



What I did was to use a standard metal box and I used a 2X4 to span the
ceiling joists above the hole and I cut two lengths of 1/2" copper pipe to
fit between the top of the box and the bottom of my 2X4. I used washers on
both sides of the pipe sections and drilled the bottom of the box to 1/4".

I mounted 2 Tee nuts on the 2X4 and used 1/4 bolts to hold everything
together with a little locktite on the bolts. That sucker is going nowhere.
I looked at the ceiling fan boxes and I liked my way better.

--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
1] Depth of gene pool
2] Position on the food chain.

Sounds like something my dad would do. Clearly it's not going anywhere, but
NEC requires a box that holds a fan to have 10/32 screws, and a standard box
has 8/32. Not that I would be concerned, but an 1100 takes about two minutes
to install




"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Electrical tape on the ends will work. There are retrofit heavy fixture/
fan
boxes, like Westinghouse 1100 that will install through the existing hole
and expand inside the ceiling, joist to joist, to hang your chandelier or
fan from



What I did was to use a standard metal box and I used a 2X4 to span the
ceiling joists above the hole and I cut two lengths of 1/2" copper pipe to
fit between the top of the box and the bottom of my 2X4. I used washers
on
both sides of the pipe sections and drilled the bottom of the box to 1/4".

I mounted 2 Tee nuts on the 2X4 and used 1/4 bolts to hold everything
together with a little locktite on the bolts. That sucker is going
nowhere.
I looked at the ceiling fan boxes and I liked my way better.

--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
1] Depth of gene pool
2] Position on the food chain.

On 18 Mar 2007 15:17:46 -0700, wrote:


We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.


I have heard of electricians using these, but I have never tried one.
They are supposed to be able to be installed using only the opening
hole for the box.

Installs without going into attic
Maximum load rating for ceiling fans is up to 70 lbs
Maximum load rating for light fixtures is up to 150 lbs

http://www.csnceilingfans.com/Westin...ml#ProdDetails

On 18 Mar 2007 15:17:46 -0700, wrote:


We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

I have a related question. We use a semi-public building with 20 or
24 foot ceilings, and my friend just found out that the recessed
lighting fixtures (they use flood lights, I guess) were just sitting
on the drop ceiling tiles, which are about 3 feet by 6 feet. You
know, white stuff, about a half inch thick. They weren't suspended
from the trusses or the roof, only the tiles and electric cable.

My friend is rather bothered by this, and I don't know what code is,
or normal building practice.

But the building was built 40 years ago, and the lights have given no
problems.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a house built in the late 60s/early 70s that was clearly
renovated (in about 2004) by an idiot who had no concern for safety or
building codes or anything else.

We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

So we thought fine, we'll just stick in a lightweight fixture for now
until we can get a pro out to re-do the box, since we eventually want
to replace all the ceiling fixtures anyway.

However, for a few reasons related to how flimsy and badly-installed
the box is, we don't think it's really safe to put anything back on
it--the holes to screw a mounting strip onto are stripped, for one
thing, so they don't really hold securely.

How can we safely cap off the wires (power, neutral, and ground) and
put a cover on the hole in the ceiling until we can get an electrician
out to look at it and fix it? Obviously we don't want to have live
wires there but there's no way we can leave the breaker off
indefinitely.

BTW we have aluminum wiring.


You pretty much answered your own question. But I'm a little curious, the
box wasn't attached to ANYTHING? How was it kept from falling out of the
ceiling?

As for the strength of the box, it only has to meet code, the box can be as
flimsy as paper, the fixture is pulling on the walls of the box and I'm sure
even paper thin plastic can sustain 100+ lbs of tensile loading. As for a
ceiling fan, that's another story.

Personally I'd just cap the wires and go buy a box made for ceiling fans and
then crawl into the attic and start swapping. It's not that tough, before
this year I'd never done anything like that, but having done a few around
the house I find that it's nothing major.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Sounds like something my dad would do. Clearly it's not going anywhere,
but
NEC requires a box that holds a fan to have 10/32 screws, and a standard
box
has 8/32. Not that I would be concerned, but an 1100 takes about two
minutes
to install

I was installing the box where none was before so I had to be in the attic
anyway. I can make 8-32 tapped holes become 10-32 tapped holes really
quick.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Don't do that, you'd weaken the screw tabs. They do make four inch round fan
boxes though



"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Sounds like something my dad would do. Clearly it's not going anywhere,
but
NEC requires a box that holds a fan to have 10/32 screws, and a standard
box
has 8/32. Not that I would be concerned, but an 1100 takes about two
minutes
to install

I was installing the box where none was before so I had to be in the attic
anyway. I can make 8-32 tapped holes become 10-32 tapped holes really
quick.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On 18 Mar 2007 15:17:46 -0700, wrote:


We removed a heavy glass chandelier with the intention of putting in a
ceiling fan, and found that the box was clearly a plastic one designed
for lightweight lighting fixtures and not anything heavy, and
furthermore, was not secured to anything but instead was just sort of
floating in the celing. In fact, it seemed so flimsy we didn't want to
put the chandelier back up.

I have a related question. We use a semi-public building with 20 or
24 foot ceilings, and my friend just found out that the recessed
lighting fixtures (they use flood lights, I guess) were just sitting
on the drop ceiling tiles, which are about 3 feet by 6 feet. You
know, white stuff, about a half inch thick. They weren't suspended
from the trusses or the roof, only the tiles and electric cable.

My friend is rather bothered by this, and I don't know what code is,
or normal building practice.

But the building was built 40 years ago, and the lights have given no
problems.

I don't know what the code is, but I do know it's not what you described.
The lights may not have caused problems, but I can easily imagine a
situation where they would, and probably all at once.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...

Don't do that, you'd weaken the screw tabs.

When I measure a #8 screw I find it to be .160 inches, and when I measure
the #10 I find it to be .185 inches.

That means that I would be enlarging the hole .025 inches.

If you are not familiar with decimal divisions on an inch, 1/8" =.125"

..025" is 1/5 of 1/8"

If the box is that cheesy that the tabs could not safely withstand enlarging
them that little tiny bit, then I would certainly not use them.

I would be willing to bet that I could support my weight (almost 300# on the
box I installed. I would not bet on the cheap boxes that were being sold
with the tin bridge to hold up as well.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

They build the metal fan boxes a little different than the standard boxes,
some actually enlarge the threaded holes and run a long screw right through
the hole and tap the threads in the back of the box





"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...

Don't do that, you'd weaken the screw tabs.

When I measure a #8 screw I find it to be .160 inches, and when I measure
the #10 I find it to be .185 inches.

That means that I would be enlarging the hole .025 inches.

If you are not familiar with decimal divisions on an inch, 1/8" =.125"

.025" is 1/5 of 1/8"

If the box is that cheesy that the tabs could not safely withstand
enlarging
them that little tiny bit, then I would certainly not use them.

I would be willing to bet that I could support my weight (almost 300# on
the
box I installed. I would not bet on the cheap boxes that were being sold
with the tin bridge to hold up as well.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.