Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


Dave

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories, (which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the
house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

Do you have a 6,000 sq. ft. home?

On Mar 5, 5:57 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"

Dave
i dont know. but: the electricians know your loads for the new pumps.
perhaps your new heating unit has auxilliary electric heat or air
conditioning and needs more electricity.
maybe you also need to consider a natural gas generator for emergency
hookup with an additional panel and auto disconnect.
code determines how many drops per type of dewlling/structure.
and you can't put in a service main panel any larger than the existing
service wires.
there is a hidden extra cost of each monthly meter charge in buffalo
ny around $16 per month.
as in buffalo, you have winter. in our climate be careful. if you
underestimate for energy efficiency, estimates of btu's required to
quickly reheat your home on a windchill day by many energy efficiency
calculations could be too chilly for too long.
these systems you may want to have control over could use lots of
zoning and temperature sensors if you want to see how the system is
working and to help pinpoint problems.
at the very least i'd want monitoring temperature gauges and indicator
lights for the running pumps. and show me underground water temp in
and out, and home zone temp in and out.

"buffalobill" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 5, 5:57 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"

Dave
i dont know. but: the electricians know your loads for the new pumps.
perhaps your new heating unit has auxilliary electric heat or air
conditioning and needs more electricity.
maybe you also need to consider a natural gas generator for emergency
hookup with an additional panel and auto disconnect.
code determines how many drops per type of dewlling/structure.
and you can't put in a service main panel any larger than the existing
service wires.


I guess that is the heart of the question I am asking,
how can I tell if the service wires will accommodate the 400 amp service?
does the fact that I have 2 meters right now give any indication to that
info?

Dave

"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
. ..

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400 amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories, (which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the
house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

Do you have a 6,000 sq. ft. home?


Nope, but 50 for a compressor, 50 for aux heat
50 for hot water, on the geo side

then the other 200 for the rest of the house

it adds up quick

Dave

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:57:19 -0500, "Zephyr" an address @ some place
..com wrote:

Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.

Are you going to use the Geo to heat you, or are you goint to heat the
Geo?

If you need 400 amps, it sounds like the second. Seriously, I'm new
to this, but how could something that needs so much electricity save
you money? Or save the world anything? How many amps are needed for
pure-electric heat?

Sorry, I can't answer your questions.

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..


"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


The question to DTE is irrelevant that it is goethermal. The question to
them is can you upgrade the service to 400 amps without changing the wiring?
They for sure should be able to tell you this.

As an aside, do you think the geothermal system will really save you any
money in the long run? What about when you factor in what sounds like a
sizable hike to your electric bill?

If you do the geothermal, I would be interested to read about your
experiences with it as it is an interesting technology.

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


Is this an underground service or overhead? The power companies rate their
conductors differently than what is permitted in the code book. I know that
one power company here in New Jersey has all of their service drops rated
for a minimum of 320 amps. For larger services they would install larger
conductors.

You didn't say if you plan to do this work yourself or have a contractor do
it. A local electrician should know what is needed. If you are going to do
the work yourself, I suggest that you get the paperwork started with your
power company as soon as possible.

It sounds as though you only need to upgrade one of the services and leave
the existing house service as is.

"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..


"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


The question to DTE is irrelevant that it is goethermal. The question to
them is can you upgrade the service to 400 amps without changing the
wiring? They for sure should be able to tell you this.

As an aside, do you think the geothermal system will really save you any
money in the long run? What about when you factor in what sounds like a
sizable hike to your electric bill?

If you do the geothermal, I would be interested to read about your
experiences with it as it is an interesting technology.

DTE offers a 50% reduced rate on electric for people with geo, as for
saving money, the compressor is all that runs really, and so its not that
big of a bill, I've had companies promise me up to 50% savings on a typical
gas bill for a house my size (2100 SF)
check out www.waterfurnace.com for more info

currently it looks like around $16,000 - $20,000 to get in though
the contractors are pushing a 8.5 year payback if the ratio of gas to
electric hold
less if gas gets more expensive vs electric.

Dave

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


Is this an underground service or overhead? The power companies rate
their
conductors differently than what is permitted in the code book. I know
that
one power company here in New Jersey has all of their service drops rated
for a minimum of 320 amps. For larger services they would install larger
conductors.

Underground
thats what makes me question, a new line underground is not cheap I'm sure


You didn't say if you plan to do this work yourself or have a contractor
do
it. A local electrician should know what is needed. If you are going to
do
the work yourself, I suggest that you get the paperwork started with your
power company as soon as possible.


Given my questions, I figured that answer would be obvious. I'll
definitly be having someone who knows what they are doing install it.



It sounds as though you only need to upgrade one of the services and leave
the existing house service as is.


I was kinda hoping that, no need to pay for a new panel if the old works
fine.

Dave

Something is really off. Geothermal should use less energy than a
standard heat pump for both heating and cooling. A 2100 sq foot house
should use about 3 tons (36,000 BTU) in the mid atlantic region, maybe
4 tons in Michigan. A geothermal unit is not dependent on outside
temp since it draws heat from a constant earth temperature. Even if
the electric service is sized for emergency resistance heat the amp
ratings seem very high. Might want to check some geo mfgr websites
for consumption.

On Mar 5, 9:31 pm, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote:
"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message

...





"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
...

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"

The question to DTE is irrelevant that it is goethermal. The question to
them is can you upgrade the service to 400 amps without changing the
wiring? They for sure should be able to tell you this.

As an aside, do you think the geothermal system will really save you any
money in the long run? What about when you factor in what sounds like a
sizable hike to your electric bill?

If you do the geothermal, I would be interested to read about your
experiences with it as it is an interesting technology.

DTE offers a 50% reduced rate on electric for people with geo, as for
saving money, the compressor is all that runs really, and so its not that
big of a bill, I've had companies promise me up to 50% savings on a typical
gas bill for a house my size (2100 SF)
check out www.waterfurnace.comfor more info

currently it looks like around $16,000 - $20,000 to get in though
the contractors are pushing a 8.5 year payback if the ratio of gas to
electric hold
less if gas gets more expensive vs electric.

Dave

"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
...

currently it looks like around $16,000 - $20,000 to get in though
the contractors are pushing a 8.5 year payback if the ratio of gas to
electric hold
less if gas gets more expensive vs electric.


Something does not sound right. At the low end up front cost of $16,000 an
8.5 year payback means you would have a savings of $1182 per year or $156
per month. Couple that with a maximum expected savings of "up to 50%" on
gas means that your gas bills now would have to average over $2300 per year
or over $300 per month to make the figures you were given add up. I just
don't see it but maybe I am missing something.

I had a good friend look into geothermal heat for his home but he decided
against it saying it would be too expensive.

"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and
the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both
meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


Is this an underground service or overhead? The power companies rate
their
conductors differently than what is permitted in the code book. I know
that
one power company here in New Jersey has all of their service drops
rated
for a minimum of 320 amps. For larger services they would install
larger
conductors.

Underground
thats what makes me question, a new line underground is not cheap I'm
sure


If it is buried conduit all the way to the transformer, it may be big enough
for the required conductors. A direct buried cable or conductors may need
to be replaced. You really need to get some quotes from some electrical
contractors and ask a lot of questions regarding your options. Be sure to
have all of the electrical specifications available for the new equipment.





You didn't say if you plan to do this work yourself or have a contractor
do
it. A local electrician should know what is needed. If you are going
to
do
the work yourself, I suggest that you get the paperwork started with
your
power company as soon as possible.


Given my questions, I figured that answer would be obvious. I'll
definitly be having someone who knows what they are doing install it.



It sounds as though you only need to upgrade one of the services and
leave
the existing house service as is.


I was kinda hoping that, no need to pay for a new panel if the old works
fine.

Dave

On Mar 6, 7:32�am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in ...





"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
...
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 *200 amp boxes, *one for the geo and
accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

currently I *have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and
the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, *use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both
meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? *a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, *We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, *but, I don't know everything"

Is this an underground service or overhead? *The power companies rate
their
conductors differently than what is permitted in the code book. *I know
that
one power company here in New Jersey has all of their service drops
rated
for a minimum of 320 amps. *For larger services they would install
larger
conductors.

Underground
*thats what makes me question, *a new line underground is not cheap I'm

sure

If it is buried conduit all the way to the transformer, it may be big enough
for the required conductors. *A direct buried cable or conductors may need
to be replaced. *You really need to get some quotes from some electrical
contractors and ask a lot of questions regarding your options. *Be sure to
have all of the electrical specifications available for the new equipment.







You didn't say if you plan to do this work yourself or have a contractor
do
it. *A local electrician should know what is needed. *If you are going
to
do
the work yourself, I suggest that you get the paperwork started with
your
power company as soon as possible.

Given my questions, *I figured that answer would be obvious. * *I'll
definitly be having someone who knows what they are doing install it.

It sounds as though you only need to upgrade one of the services and
leave
the existing house service as is.

I was kinda hoping that, *no need to pay for a new panel if the old works
fine.

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well it sounds like you about to be taken

At least keep the gas furnace somehow for standby use.

So why 400 amps? Sounds way excessive. How many BTUs is your AC
currently? Furnace BTUs?

Zephyr wrote:
"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
. ..

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
m...

Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400 amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories, (which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the
house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

Do you have a 6,000 sq. ft. home?



Nope, but 50 for a compressor, 50 for aux heat
50 for hot water, on the geo side

then the other 200 for the rest of the house

it adds up quick


50+50+50=150. Do the compressor and aux heat ever run at the same time?
If not the load for those 2 is 50A. What is the 50A for hot water - is
that derived from geo or simple resistance heat. Resistance electric hot
water is commonly a 30A circuit. **What circuit rating does the
manufacturer say is required - or max concurrent connected load? As
others are indicating, 200A sounds way high.

Sounds like your house now runs off 150A separate from the existing A/C.
Why increase that to 200A?

--
bud--

"Gerry Atrick" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:13:18 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:


"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need
400 amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and
accessories, (which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of
the
house.

currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and
the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both
meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road? a quick call to
DTE
resulted in an

Do you have a 6,000 sq. ft. home?


Nope, but 50 for a compressor, 50 for aux heat
50 for hot water, on the geo side

then the other 200 for the rest of the house

it adds up quick

Dave


I'd hate to pay your electric bill......


Read the original post! The second breaker box and meter is to isolate the
heating from the rest of the electric load. It is not that uncommon (though
not widely publicized) that you get a discount for electric for heating
purposes. This LOWERS the electric bill. My b-i-l did this a few years ago
and he is saving gobs of money on heating!

YES, you need larger cable from the pole and all the way to the
breaker box(s). Possibly a new transformer on the pole. Possibly new
meter sockets, and definately new breaker boxes (or at least for the
mains).

Are you sure you really need that much power? I live on a farm, and
my whole farm has 400A service. There are two 200A mains. I dont
even use one of those mains. Of course the former owners had some
electric grain bin dryers and those things are big power users. I run
the whole farm on 200A with plenty to spare.


Maybe you should look into electic heat since you already have 2 boxes set
up. You could save a bundle on yoru heating bills!

"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
...

"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..


"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


The question to DTE is irrelevant that it is goethermal. The question
to
them is can you upgrade the service to 400 amps without changing the
wiring? They for sure should be able to tell you this.

As an aside, do you think the geothermal system will really save you any
money in the long run? What about when you factor in what sounds like a
sizable hike to your electric bill?

If you do the geothermal, I would be interested to read about your
experiences with it as it is an interesting technology.

DTE offers a 50% reduced rate on electric for people with geo, as for
saving money, the compressor is all that runs really, and so its not that
big of a bill, I've had companies promise me up to 50% savings on a
typical
gas bill for a house my size (2100 SF)
check out www.waterfurnace.com for more info

currently it looks like around $16,000 - $20,000 to get in though
the contractors are pushing a 8.5 year payback if the ratio of gas to
electric hold
less if gas gets more expensive vs electric.

Dave





You are ignoring rebates. Does your electric company offer any rebated for
geo? Also, there are tax rebates from the federal govt for going geo.
Check with your state also. Your price seems quite high. My son's is only
going to be about $3000.

On Mar 5, 5:57 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

You are wise to seek advice in this matter. IMHO, a 400 amp electric
service for a 2100 SF house is just ridiculous. An HVAC contractor
should be consulted only to calculate what size geothermal unit that
you need. One should then give the electrical specifications for that
unit to an electrical contractor, preferably one that is not
associated with the HVAC contractor, and have them do an electrical
service calculation, or do it yourself. Many electrical contractors
who work with HVAC contractors are "yes people" and, since the HVAC
contractor is buttering their bread, will install anything that the
HVAC contractor asks for, in this case, a 400 amp electric service.
RUN, don't walk, from anyone who tells you that you need a 400 amp
electric service for a 2100 SF house!

The purpose of using a geothermal unit is to provide a high comfort
level with a low energy cost. Installing a 400 amp service for an
energy saving geothermal unit, IMHO, would be an oxymoron. Think
about it. If one is indeed actually using the lion's share of a 400
amp service, one would probably need to get the place zoned for and
open a restaurant to help pay the electric bill.


currently I have 2 meters on the house 1st is a 150 amp service and the
second is an interruptible service meter for my AC unit.
( I am in SE Michigan, use DTE energy)

If you consult an electrical contractor, or the power co., I think you
may find that installing a panel on the load side of the interruptible
service meter large enough to accommodate the geo and it's accessories
may be an option. I don't think that your "problem" is capacity, but
more of one of physical spaces in the panel for the equipment.
Discontinuing use of your existing heat/AC is going to free up spaces
for the new equipment.

I saw your other posts, and I checked out your link to www.waterfurnace.com,
but without knowing your existing electrical requirements and the
model number of unit that you are considering (hopefully this was
calculated by the HVAC contractors), including what size aux. heat in
kW, one cannot make a electric service load calculation for you.
There are plenty of people in this NG who can make the calculation for
you, but we need more info from you, if you want to take the time:
1...SF of the house, OK, we know that, 2100 SF.
2...which appliances are currently gas and which appliances will
remain gas once everything is said and done.
3...is your water going to be heated by the geothermal unit, and if
so, what size is the backup (in kilowatts), if electric.
4...a list of your current electric equipment, such as whether or not
you have (or going to have) an electric a water heater, disposal,
dishwasher, dryer, washer, pumps, large fans, shop equipment, large
motors, etc.

There is an online electric service calculator, but I can't remember
where it's at. Maybe someone can post that link if you want to do it
yourself. If you decide to do that, I would recommend that you get
your calculation checked by a qualified person. There's plenty of
help at: http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/index.htm

Electric services are not sized by adding up the breakers in the
panel, they are based on well established demand factors, and only a
properly made electric service calculation will give you the correct
size electric service that you need. I seriously doubt that the HVAC
contractors who you consulted even made an electric service
calculation. I would also suspect that those same contractors didn't
bother to make a calculation to size the geothermal unit either. One
simply does not ask an electrical contractor to size an AC unit, nor
ask an HVAC contractor to size an electric service, unless, of course,
that person is licensed AND/OR qualified to do both.

If I need to go to 400 amp service is it as simple as having both meters
replaced with larger 200 amp units?
or would new wire need to be pulled from the road?

A true 400 amp service will not only require larger wire, but most
likely a larger conduit. Things can get expensive in a hurry....all
for something that you most likely don't need.


a quick call to DTE
resulted in an

"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"

It may not seem like much of a statement, but is says a lot.
You want to keep the power co. in the loop. You may want to call them
back and ask to speak to someone in the engineering dept. You may
want to ask if they will come to your home and do an energy audit.
You may want to call the geo unit manufacturer and ask them for the
names of contractors in your area who have experience installing their
equipment.

On 7 Mar 2007 10:29:20 -0800, "volts500" wrote:

On Mar 5, 5:57 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey group,

I'm contemplating going to Geo Thermal heat,
I've talked to a couple different installers and they say that I need 400
amp service to do this.
this would be split into 2 200 amp boxes, one for the geo and accessories,
(which qualify for a lower rate) and 1 for the rest of the house.

You are wise to seek advice in this matter. IMHO, a 400 amp electric
service for a 2100 SF house is just ridiculous.

My house is almost that big, and I have a 100A main panel with the A/C
(conventional system, not heat pump) on a separate 30A connection
(splits after the meter) . I'm sure I wouldn't want to triple that
(electric service) to "save" energy.

[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 21:31:54 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:


"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
...

"Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote in message
. ..


"I don't know, We've done geo therm before and never had to put in new
wire, but, I don't know everything"


The question to DTE is irrelevant that it is goethermal. The question to
them is can you upgrade the service to 400 amps without changing the
wiring? They for sure should be able to tell you this.

As an aside, do you think the geothermal system will really save you any
money in the long run? What about when you factor in what sounds like a
sizable hike to your electric bill?

If you do the geothermal, I would be interested to read about your
experiences with it as it is an interesting technology.

DTE offers a 50% reduced rate on electric for people with geo, as for
saving money, the compressor is all that runs really, and so its not that
big of a bill, I've had companies promise me up to 50% savings on a typical
gas bill for a house my size (2100 SF)
check out www.waterfurnace.com for more info

currently it looks like around $16,000 - $20,000 to get in though
the contractors are pushing a 8.5 year payback if the ratio of gas to
electric hold
less if gas gets more expensive vs electric.


If you're pulling 50 amps for the compressor,
and 50 amps for "aux" heat, then that's 100 amps * 220V
or 22000 watts.
Which would produce 74800 BTUs per hour.
(Or, at 80%, around 60,000 BTUS) if you used it
as straight electric-resistance heating.

What does your heating-load calculation say you actually need?
'cause that seems like it ought to be enough,
all by itself, in which case, what the hell is the
heat pump good for?

I mean, the whole point of geothermal is that it's supposed
to use LESS electricity than electric resistance heating, right?

A 1 story 2100 sqft house that's 28 x 75'
assume 2100 sqft ceiling at R36, (U~60)
1650 sqft of wall (10% window), @ R15 so (U~98)
10 % windows at R=1 so (U~165)
========
Figure 20 below, outside, 72 in = 92 * 323 ~~ 30,000 BTUs/hr
plus 2100 sqft floor, R5 ground temp 0 ~~ 30,000 BTUs...

--Goedjn