I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts? (would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)

Do you know what you own vs. what the water authority owns? Is it
possible that the water authority is responsible for the PVC section
and it's their responsible to fix it? Perhaps at sometime they
replaced their old copper with PVC up to the point where the homeowner
owns the rest.

That's what they did with my sewers a few years ago, so maybe it's the
same wih your water.


On Jan 28, 1:20 pm, "Coloradotrout"
wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts? (would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)

The own up to the meter. Unfortunately this section is between the meter
and my house. They would not even come out and locate the line.
Fortunately the sink hole was right over the leak.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
oups.com...
Do you know what you own vs. what the water authority owns? Is it
possible that the water authority is responsible for the PVC section
and it's their responsible to fix it? Perhaps at sometime they
replaced their old copper with PVC up to the point where the homeowner
owns the rest.

That's what they did with my sewers a few years ago, so maybe it's the
same wih your water.


On Jan 28, 1:20 pm, "Coloradotrout"
wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)

Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts? (would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

In article ,
Coloradotrout wrote:
...snipped...
How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

...snipped...
Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




You were fortunate to find the leak withouth having to dig up more
of the pipe. If you go to a regular plumbing supply house they
will likely be able to supply you with a solution using a minimum of
fittings. Since the house is only 15 eyars old, and presumably the
pipes in question are the same age, I would not feel bad about
just fixing the leak instead of replacing the entire run (Unless
you are in an area where the water quality is known to be a problem for
copper) Soldering to the copper pipe whould be fine. Just make sure that
you thoroughly clean the pipe ends before sweating or installing
the fittings, and don't backfill for a few days so you can make sure
the leak has been repaired.




--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

Not quite sure I follow how that removes the slip joint ( slip joint may be
the wrong words, I meant a pvc glue joint) but let me see if I have the
idea.

1 cut off the 1" male (receptor of nipple connector) from the copper, polish
the pipe
2 cut/clean the pvc end
3 so now I have in the hole a 3/4" copper pipe and 3/4" pvc about 12" apart
4 now take a 3/4" female copper adapter and sweat it onto a piece of 3/4"
pipe about 12" long
5 glue on a 3/4" pvc male threaded adapter to the pvc pipe
6 slip a no-ridge copper coupler over this piece
7 put this assembly in the hole
8 cut the copper pipe 'to fit'
9 tighten the copper female adapter onto the male pvc thread (step 5 above)
10 slide the no-ridge copper coupler to the center of the copper gap
11 sweat both sides into place

so I'd have..

copper line | copper coupler (no ridge) | new copper pipe | copper female
threaded adapter | male pvc adapter | pvc pipe

So if I count the | above, that is 5 joints - 3 sweat, 1 thread, 1 pvc
glue. Better than the 6 with my union idea below! Not as good as the 4
joint original, but I see no way to do that without running new line (and at
6' plus in the dead of winter, that's not an option).

Maybe now to add strength, I could use a 1" joint on the PVC side. Upsize
from 3/4" to get more plastic?

What about using those premade cpvc to copper adapters? I could pvc glue
that to the pvc pipe and have a male copper thread to feed into my female
copper adapter? Would that be any better than the male pvc to female copper
connection? (Personally, I'm a bit leary of those cpvc-to-copper fittings,
but I could be wrong.)

How can I pull the heat off that copper pipe while I'm sweating the splice
so it does not melt the pvc? A wet rag?

Any tips to get that male pvc to female copper joint as tight and strong as
possible? Use a copper/pvc thread sealant? Any other ideas?

When I backfill the hole, I think I will firm up the soil as much as
possible under this, so when the soil from above settles, hopefully it will
not apply so much of a load that the "fix" bends/breaks. Thoughts on this?

What kind of PVC glue?

If this was above ground or even 3' under, I'd be a lot less cautious. But
at nearly 7' I dont want to repeat this exercise for awhile.



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

Jim,

After thinking about this for a bit, maybe the pvc female -to- copper male
is stronger?

A pvc male will be limted to the thickness of the material less the material
removed for the threads. A pvc female however, can be as thick as it comes
with the material removed from inside of it.

Just thinking that a pvc male adapter is going to be pretty thin material.
The pvc female could be pretty thick.. well.. at least to thickness of the
manufacturer.


"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

These things are great. We have gone to them exclusively on
repair work. You probably will not be able to buy them at a
regular plumbing supply house. Most sprinkler and irrigation
companies have them:
http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u542837

It does sound like you need to bush up or down on one line size or
the other.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Not quite sure I follow how that removes the slip joint ( slip
joint may be
the wrong words, I meant a pvc glue joint) but let me see if I
have the
idea.

1 cut off the 1" male (receptor of nipple connector) from the
copper, polish
the pipe
2 cut/clean the pvc end
3 so now I have in the hole a 3/4" copper pipe and 3/4" pvc
about 12" apart
4 now take a 3/4" female copper adapter and sweat it onto a
piece of 3/4"
pipe about 12" long
5 glue on a 3/4" pvc male threaded adapter to the pvc pipe
6 slip a no-ridge copper coupler over this piece
7 put this assembly in the hole
8 cut the copper pipe 'to fit'
9 tighten the copper female adapter onto the male pvc thread
(step 5 above)
10 slide the no-ridge copper coupler to the center of the copper
gap
11 sweat both sides into place

so I'd have..

copper line | copper coupler (no ridge) | new copper pipe |
copper female
threaded adapter | male pvc adapter | pvc pipe

So if I count the | above, that is 5 joints - 3 sweat, 1
thread, 1 pvc
glue. Better than the 6 with my union idea below! Not as
good as the 4
joint original, but I see no way to do that without running new
line (and at
6' plus in the dead of winter, that's not an option).

Maybe now to add strength, I could use a 1" joint on the PVC
side. Upsize
from 3/4" to get more plastic?

What about using those premade cpvc to copper adapters? I could
pvc glue
that to the pvc pipe and have a male copper thread to feed into
my female
copper adapter? Would that be any better than the male pvc to
female copper
connection? (Personally, I'm a bit leary of those
cpvc-to-copper fittings,
but I could be wrong.)

How can I pull the heat off that copper pipe while I'm sweating
the splice
so it does not melt the pvc? A wet rag?

Any tips to get that male pvc to female copper joint as tight
and strong as
possible? Use a copper/pvc thread sealant? Any other ideas?

When I backfill the hole, I think I will firm up the soil as
much as
possible under this, so when the soil from above settles,
hopefully it will
not apply so much of a load that the "fix" bends/breaks.
Thoughts on this?

What kind of PVC glue?

If this was above ground or even 3' under, I'd be a lot less
cautious. But
at nearly 7' I dont want to repeat this exercise for awhile.



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line
is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid
copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as
follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid
brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH
threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a
new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We
are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a
problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with
is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper
pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to
slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6.
Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed.
Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half
way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker
than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female
copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you
suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair
coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of
2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC
connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female
adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside
the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any
difference.

Jim

Wow.. I can't imagine putting something like that into a 7' underground
ditch for my mainline. I'm thinking simple=best.

I need to join a 3/4" pvc to 3/4" copper.

"DanG" wrote in message
...
These things are great. We have gone to them exclusively on
repair work. You probably will not be able to buy them at a
regular plumbing supply house. Most sprinkler and irrigation
companies have them:
http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u542837

It does sound like you need to bush up or down on one line size or
the other.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Not quite sure I follow how that removes the slip joint ( slip
joint may be
the wrong words, I meant a pvc glue joint) but let me see if I
have the
idea.

1 cut off the 1" male (receptor of nipple connector) from the
copper, polish
the pipe
2 cut/clean the pvc end
3 so now I have in the hole a 3/4" copper pipe and 3/4" pvc
about 12" apart
4 now take a 3/4" female copper adapter and sweat it onto a
piece of 3/4"
pipe about 12" long
5 glue on a 3/4" pvc male threaded adapter to the pvc pipe
6 slip a no-ridge copper coupler over this piece
7 put this assembly in the hole
8 cut the copper pipe 'to fit'
9 tighten the copper female adapter onto the male pvc thread
(step 5 above)
10 slide the no-ridge copper coupler to the center of the copper
gap
11 sweat both sides into place

so I'd have..

copper line | copper coupler (no ridge) | new copper pipe |
copper female
threaded adapter | male pvc adapter | pvc pipe

So if I count the | above, that is 5 joints - 3 sweat, 1
thread, 1 pvc
glue. Better than the 6 with my union idea below! Not as
good as the 4
joint original, but I see no way to do that without running new
line (and at
6' plus in the dead of winter, that's not an option).

Maybe now to add strength, I could use a 1" joint on the PVC
side. Upsize
from 3/4" to get more plastic?

What about using those premade cpvc to copper adapters? I could
pvc glue
that to the pvc pipe and have a male copper thread to feed into
my female
copper adapter? Would that be any better than the male pvc to
female copper
connection? (Personally, I'm a bit leary of those
cpvc-to-copper fittings,
but I could be wrong.)

How can I pull the heat off that copper pipe while I'm sweating
the splice
so it does not melt the pvc? A wet rag?

Any tips to get that male pvc to female copper joint as tight
and strong as
possible? Use a copper/pvc thread sealant? Any other ideas?

When I backfill the hole, I think I will firm up the soil as
much as
possible under this, so when the soil from above settles,
hopefully it will
not apply so much of a load that the "fix" bends/breaks.
Thoughts on this?

What kind of PVC glue?

If this was above ground or even 3' under, I'd be a lot less
cautious. But
at nearly 7' I dont want to repeat this exercise for awhile.



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line
is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid
copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as
follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid
brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH
threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a
new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We
are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a
problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with
is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper
pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to
slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6.
Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed.
Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half
way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker
than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female
copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you
suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair
coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of
2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC
connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female
adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside
the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any
difference.

Jim

On Jan 28, 3:20 pm, "Coloradotrout"
wrote:
....

When I backfill the hole, I think I will firm up the soil as much as
possible under this, so when the soil from above settles, hopefully it will
not apply so much of a load that the "fix" bends/breaks. Thoughts on this?
...

What I'd suggest there is to put an arch over the joint out of block
or other to provide some relief around the joint area resting on the
trench bottom then fill. That should keep any direct movement from
causing the joint to move.

If this was above ground or even 3' under, I'd be a lot less cautious. But
at nearly 7' I dont want to repeat this exercise for awhile.
....

Until you said that, I was going to suggest the alternate way to
replacing the line to the street could be to have only a PVC joint in
the trench and run it to the house for the transition to copper
inside.

Coloradotrout wrote:

Jim,

After thinking about this for a bit, maybe the pvc female -to- copper male
is stronger?

A pvc male will be limted to the thickness of the material less the material
removed for the threads. A pvc female however, can be as thick as it comes
with the material removed from inside of it.

Just thinking that a pvc male adapter is going to be pretty thin material.
The pvc female could be pretty thick.. well.. at least to thickness of the
manufacturer.


No. The problem is that the threads are tapered.
As you tighten your male copper fitting into the
female PVC fitting, the taper forces the PVC to expand
until it cracks (maybe not immediately, but certainly
after the hole has been backfilled bg)




"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...

Coloradotrout wrote:

I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female

connector -- 1"

male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --

PVC

3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench

and

lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are

looking to

spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem

waiting

to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --

3/4"

male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc

pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?

(would a

3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my

copper

joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

Coloradotrout wrote:

Not quite sure I follow how that removes the slip joint ( slip joint may be
the wrong words, I meant a pvc glue joint) but let me see if I have the
idea.

1 cut off the 1" male (receptor of nipple connector) from the copper, polish
the pipe
2 cut/clean the pvc end
3 so now I have in the hole a 3/4" copper pipe and 3/4" pvc about 12" apart
4 now take a 3/4" female copper adapter and sweat it onto a piece of 3/4"
pipe about 12" long
5 glue on a 3/4" pvc male threaded adapter to the pvc pipe
6 slip a no-ridge copper coupler over this piece
7 put this assembly in the hole
8 cut the copper pipe 'to fit'
9 tighten the copper female adapter onto the male pvc thread (step 5 above)
10 slide the no-ridge copper coupler to the center of the copper gap
11 sweat both sides into place

so I'd have..

copper line | copper coupler (no ridge) | new copper pipe | copper female
threaded adapter | male pvc adapter | pvc pipe

So if I count the | above, that is 5 joints - 3 sweat, 1 thread, 1 pvc
glue. Better than the 6 with my union idea below! Not as good as the 4
joint original, but I see no way to do that without running new line (and at
6' plus in the dead of winter, that's not an option).

Maybe now to add strength, I could use a 1" joint on the PVC side. Upsize
from 3/4" to get more plastic?

What about using those premade cpvc to copper adapters? I could pvc glue
that to the pvc pipe and have a male copper thread to feed into my female
copper adapter? Would that be any better than the male pvc to female copper
connection? (Personally, I'm a bit leary of those cpvc-to-copper fittings,
but I could be wrong.)

How can I pull the heat off that copper pipe while I'm sweating the splice
so it does not melt the pvc? A wet rag?

Any tips to get that male pvc to female copper joint as tight and strong as
possible? Use a copper/pvc thread sealant? Any other ideas?

When I backfill the hole, I think I will firm up the soil as much as
possible under this, so when the soil from above settles, hopefully it will
not apply so much of a load that the "fix" bends/breaks. Thoughts on this?

What kind of PVC glue?

If this was above ground or even 3' under, I'd be a lot less cautious. But
at nearly 7' I dont want to repeat this exercise for awhile.



Yes, you have it right.

Use a wrap of Teflon tape on the male threads.
No need to overtighten.

Damp rag to control heat.

Lots of flux on the surfaces to be soldered
(after thorough polishing).

You could build some flex capability into it
by making a "U" out of copper and fittings
(put the "U" upside down). Better yet,
make your stub of copper pipe out of Type L soft copper tube.
Make it longer than 1 foot if possible.
Soft tube will flex quite a bit.

For the truly paranoid, a section of stainless braided hose
would be perfect!

Jim





"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...

Coloradotrout wrote:

I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female

connector -- 1"

male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --

PVC

3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench

and

lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are

looking to

spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem

waiting

to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --

3/4"

male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc

pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?

(would a

3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my

copper

joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts? (would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)






Cut off a 3" piece of the copper pipe to use as a nipple, and cut off the
broken PVC fitting. Buy a section of 1" PVC pipe, a 1" copper FIP fitting,
a 1" copper repair coupling, a 1x3/4" PVC reducer coupling, and a 1" MIP
fitting.

1" copper pipe - repair coupling - copper nipple (cut from the copper
pipe) - copper FIP - PVC 1" MIP - short 1" PVC pipe - PVC reducer
coupling - 3/4" PVC pipe. Connect the copper repair coupling last. ;-)

Regular lead-free solder should be just fine. Use purple primer on the PVC
glue joints.

If you are paranoid, buy some soft copper (like Jim said) make a loop or an
S and use that instead of the short copper nipple and the long PVC nipple,
so it can expand and contract without stressing the PVC joints.

I'll bet this could also be done neatly with soft copper and a flare
fitting instead of the repair coupling.

Best regards,
Bob

I may have confused this a bit.

The copper from the house is 3/4". So I need to go from 3/4" Cu pipe to
3/4" pvc.

So I think Jim's point was..

3/4" Cu mainline | Cu repair coupling | 3/4" Cu pipe (length cut to fit, or
use soft and make S or U shape) | female Cu adapter | male pvc adapter |
3/4" pvc

All the above are 3/4" pipes and fittings.

It looks like you were thinking I had a 1" Cu pipe from the house. The
original had a 1" female adapter brazed to the 3/4" line. Then a brass 1"
male to 3/4" male (threads both ends, the 1" end had a compression-like
fitting to that 1" female adapter), then a 3/4" pvc female, then the 3/4"
pvc pipe. There were all RH threads, so it was assembled sequentially.
Can't do that now ;-)

It's probably best to cut off that initial fitting and use the repair
coupling. At least that is my thought.

I do like the idea of a short run of flex copper.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Coloradotrout wrote:
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector -- 1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are
looking to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?
(would a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)






Cut off a 3" piece of the copper pipe to use as a nipple, and cut off the
broken PVC fitting. Buy a section of 1" PVC pipe, a 1" copper FIP
fitting,
a 1" copper repair coupling, a 1x3/4" PVC reducer coupling, and a 1" MIP
fitting.

1" copper pipe - repair coupling - copper nipple (cut from the copper
pipe) - copper FIP - PVC 1" MIP - short 1" PVC pipe - PVC reducer
coupling - 3/4" PVC pipe. Connect the copper repair coupling last. ;-)

Regular lead-free solder should be just fine. Use purple primer on the
PVC
glue joints.

If you are paranoid, buy some soft copper (like Jim said) make a loop or
an
S and use that instead of the short copper nipple and the long PVC nipple,
so it can expand and contract without stressing the PVC joints.

I'll bet this could also be done neatly with soft copper and a flare
fitting instead of the repair coupling.

Best regards,
Bob

Ahh.. makes sense.

It looks to me like the original pvc female adapter was faulty. It seemed
to shear off right at the end of the threads.

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
t...
Coloradotrout wrote:

Jim,

After thinking about this for a bit, maybe the pvc female -to- copper
male
is stronger?

A pvc male will be limted to the thickness of the material less the
material
removed for the threads. A pvc female however, can be as thick as it
comes
with the material removed from inside of it.

Just thinking that a pvc male adapter is going to be pretty thin
material.
The pvc female could be pretty thick.. well.. at least to thickness of
the
manufacturer.


No. The problem is that the threads are tapered.
As you tighten your male copper fitting into the
female PVC fitting, the taper forces the PVC to expand
until it cracks (maybe not immediately, but certainly
after the hole has been backfilled bg)




"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...

Coloradotrout wrote:

I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper
line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female

connector -- 1"

male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --

PVC

3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and
no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new
trench

and

lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are

looking to

spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem

waiting

to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --

3/4"

male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc

pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?

(would a

3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my

copper

joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




No need for brazing. The PVC is the weak link here, weaker than
soldered connections.

BUT.....DO use a PVC Male adapter going into a Female copper
adapter.
That will be waaaaay stronger than using a Female PVC (as you
suspected).

You can avoid the PVC slip joint. Get a copper "repair coupling".
This has no internal ridge and can be slipped over the ends of 2 pieces
of pipe. If you can, move this splice back from the PVC connection
a foot or so to keep from heating the PVC. The copper Female adapter
can be soldered onto a short length of copper working outside the
trench.

Another approach would be to put a 3/4" Union in the line.
Normally, one wouldn't bury a union in the service, but given
all the other connections, I don't see it making any difference.

Jim

Yeah,thinking since I about have a 4'x8' hole that is 7' deep, I should just
lay down some cinder block walls and add a door. LOL

I definitely will let is 'sit' a few days. But our overnight temps are in
the high teens, so I need to figure out some way to insulate the hole for a
bit. Any ideas?

"Larry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Coloradotrout wrote:
...snipped...
How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking
to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

...snipped...
Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)




You were fortunate to find the leak withouth having to dig up more
of the pipe. If you go to a regular plumbing supply house they
will likely be able to supply you with a solution using a minimum of
fittings. Since the house is only 15 eyars old, and presumably the
pipes in question are the same age, I would not feel bad about
just fixing the leak instead of replacing the entire run (Unless
you are in an area where the water quality is known to be a problem for
copper) Soldering to the copper pipe whould be fine. Just make sure that
you thoroughly clean the pipe ends before sweating or installing
the fittings, and don't backfill for a few days so you can make sure
the leak has been repaired.




--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

Coloradotrout wrote:
I may have confused this a bit.

The copper from the house is 3/4". So I need to go from 3/4" Cu pipe to
3/4" pvc.

So I think Jim's point was..

3/4" Cu mainline | Cu repair coupling | 3/4" Cu pipe (length cut to fit, or
use soft and make S or U shape) | female Cu adapter | male pvc adapter |
3/4" pvc

All the above are 3/4" pipes and fittings.

It looks like you were thinking I had a 1" Cu pipe from the house. The
original had a 1" female adapter brazed to the 3/4" line. Then a brass 1"
male to 3/4" male (threads both ends, the 1" end had a compression-like
fitting to that 1" female adapter), then a 3/4" pvc female, then the 3/4"
pvc pipe. There were all RH threads, so it was assembled sequentially.
Can't do that now ;-)

It's probably best to cut off that initial fitting and use the repair
coupling. At least that is my thought.

I do like the idea of a short run of flex copper.



I thought you had 1" from the house, joined to 3/4" from the meter.
Make sure the flex copper (you mean soft "L" copper tubing, or flex like a
gas line?) is OK for direct burial. The flexible section needs to be bent
into a snake or something. If it's perfectly straight, it can't provide
the necessary slack if it needs to stretch.

Best regards,
Bob

On Jan 28, 6:06 pm, zxcvbob wrote:
Coloradotrout wrote:
I may have confused this a bit.

The copper from the house is 3/4". So I need to go from 3/4" Cu pipe to
3/4" pvc.

So I think Jim's point was..

3/4" Cu mainline | Cu repair coupling | 3/4" Cu pipe (length cut to fit, or
use soft and make S or U shape) | female Cu adapter | male pvc adapter |
3/4" pvc

All the above are 3/4" pipes and fittings.

It looks like you were thinking I had a 1" Cu pipe from the house. The
original had a 1" female adapter brazed to the 3/4" line. Then a brass 1"
male to 3/4" male (threads both ends, the 1" end had a compression-like
fitting to that 1" female adapter), then a 3/4" pvc female, then the 3/4"
pvc pipe. There were all RH threads, so it was assembled sequentially.
Can't do that now ;-)

It's probably best to cut off that initial fitting and use the repair
coupling. At least that is my thought.

I do like the idea of a short run of flex copper.I thought you had 1" from the house, joined to 3/4" from the meter.
Make sure the flex copper (you mean soft "L" copper tubing, or flex like a
gas line?) is OK for direct burial. The flexible section needs to be bent
into a snake or something. If it's perfectly straight, it can't provide
the necessary slack if it needs to stretch.

Best regards,
Bob


I don't think I'm following the thread very well but ......

I would suggest doing all the repairs in PVC.

The best is a male PVC thread into a female copper fitting, if I read
everything correctly you have a threaded female copper fitting in the
mix somewhere.

If you have enough PVC exposed you can bend it out of the ways such
that you can use a PVC slip (glue coupling to make the lsat PVC
connected.

File out the stop in the PVC coupling such that it slide all the way
passed the end of the pipe when glue is applied

Gotta work fast.......

prime both ends of the PVC to be joined AND the coupling
slather up the pipe ends w/ glue, then the coupling then a quick
recoat on the pipes
slid the coupling on passed one pipe
align the pipe, slid the coupling to center position & give it a1/4
twist to smear glue

like I said, you gotta work fast!
no margin for error.....but you can always cut it out

If you've never done one of these I suggest a practice run with scrap
material.

I'd insulate the hole...a couple layers of cardboard or burlap will
work but I'd add a 100 watt light bulb to the hole since you're gonna
get down into the teens.

cheers
Bob

cheers

In article ,
Coloradotrout wrote:
Yeah,thinking since I about have a 4'x8' hole that is 7' deep, I should just
lay down some cinder block walls and add a door. LOL

I definitely will let is 'sit' a few days. But our overnight temps are in
the high teens, so I need to figure out some way to insulate the hole for a
bit. Any ideas?


Man, that's a tough one. I didn't think about it getting that cold
in your area. Is there any way you can leave the pit open til the spring?
Maybe you could make a temporary repair using rubber hose. Years ago
I owned a house with 2 apartments. I lived in the upstairs unit.
The same pipes served both apartments, running inside walls and
ceiling of 1st floor apartment to serve the 2nd floor.

One winter when the first floor unit was vacant, I had pipes burst
in several places. Every time I repaired a crack (copper) and turned the
water back on, I'd find another crack 2 or 3 feet further down the pipe.
After a while I got so frustrated I went to an auto parts store and
bought 20 feet of heater hose, which I used to make a temporary repair
that I left in place for several weeks.

Not sure about insulating the pipe overnight. I would guess that if it
adequately below the frost line, maybe covering it in several layers
of fiberglass batting insulation would work. Hope somebody has
a proven idea that will work for you.

Do you have any water to your house now, or did you have to shut it
of at the street? Good luck to you!

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

Bob,
Thanks.

It's pretty simple really I'm beginning to think. Basically, when I cut
away the remains of the original joints, I'll have 3/4" copper and 3/4" pvc
about 12" apart. I need to join the two together. Another poster sorted it
out for me. Sweat a female threaded fitting to 12" or so of 3/4" Copper
pipe. Screw in a 3/4" male pvc fitting. Take that into the hole, test fit,
and cut the copper to length, and slide on the copper repair coupling
fitting. Glue the pvc fitting to the pvc pipe. (I figure I may as well
screw in the pvc male fitting to the copper female while I'm out of the hole
and can work with it more easily.) Now slide the coupling over the two
copper pipes and sweat 'em together. That's probably as good as it's going
to get. Alternatively, that 12" or so of ridgid copper could be 18" or so
of flex (not the water heater stuff, but rather the stuff that can come in
big rolls) with an S shape. That would give the whole assembly some "flex".
I like that idea.. kinda like a shock absorber, and it's the same number of
joints.

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 28, 6:06 pm, zxcvbob wrote:
Coloradotrout wrote:
I may have confused this a bit.

The copper from the house is 3/4". So I need to go from 3/4" Cu pipe
to
3/4" pvc.

So I think Jim's point was..

3/4" Cu mainline | Cu repair coupling | 3/4" Cu pipe (length cut to
fit, or
use soft and make S or U shape) | female Cu adapter | male pvc adapter
|
3/4" pvc

All the above are 3/4" pipes and fittings.

It looks like you were thinking I had a 1" Cu pipe from the house.
The
original had a 1" female adapter brazed to the 3/4" line. Then a
brass 1"
male to 3/4" male (threads both ends, the 1" end had a
compression-like
fitting to that 1" female adapter), then a 3/4" pvc female, then the
3/4"
pvc pipe. There were all RH threads, so it was assembled
sequentially.
Can't do that now ;-)

It's probably best to cut off that initial fitting and use the repair
coupling. At least that is my thought.

I do like the idea of a short run of flex copper.I thought you had 1"
from the house, joined to 3/4" from the meter.
Make sure the flex copper (you mean soft "L" copper tubing, or flex like
a
gas line?) is OK for direct burial. The flexible section needs to be
bent
into a snake or something. If it's perfectly straight, it can't provide
the necessary slack if it needs to stretch.

Best regards,
Bob


I don't think I'm following the thread very well but ......

I would suggest doing all the repairs in PVC.

The best is a male PVC thread into a female copper fitting, if I read
everything correctly you have a threaded female copper fitting in the
mix somewhere.

If you have enough PVC exposed you can bend it out of the ways such
that you can use a PVC slip (glue coupling to make the lsat PVC
connected.

File out the stop in the PVC coupling such that it slide all the way
passed the end of the pipe when glue is applied

Gotta work fast.......

prime both ends of the PVC to be joined AND the coupling
slather up the pipe ends w/ glue, then the coupling then a quick
recoat on the pipes
slid the coupling on passed one pipe
align the pipe, slid the coupling to center position & give it a1/4
twist to smear glue

like I said, you gotta work fast!
no margin for error.....but you can always cut it out

If you've never done one of these I suggest a practice run with scrap
material.

I'd insulate the hole...a couple layers of cardboard or burlap will
work but I'd add a 100 watt light bulb to the hole since you're gonna
get down into the teens.

cheers
Bob

cheers

No water at the house. Before I dug it up, we were toggling it at the
meter. But once I dug the hole, I had to stop because it would pool up a
big mudhole. Neighbor next door let's us carry over buckets of water --
enough to run the kitchen and flush the toilets. I hope to have it fixed in
a day or two.


"Larry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Coloradotrout wrote:
Yeah,thinking since I about have a 4'x8' hole that is 7' deep, I should
just
lay down some cinder block walls and add a door. LOL

I definitely will let is 'sit' a few days. But our overnight temps are
in
the high teens, so I need to figure out some way to insulate the hole for
a
bit. Any ideas?


Man, that's a tough one. I didn't think about it getting that cold
in your area. Is there any way you can leave the pit open til the spring?
Maybe you could make a temporary repair using rubber hose. Years ago
I owned a house with 2 apartments. I lived in the upstairs unit.
The same pipes served both apartments, running inside walls and
ceiling of 1st floor apartment to serve the 2nd floor.

One winter when the first floor unit was vacant, I had pipes burst
in several places. Every time I repaired a crack (copper) and turned the
water back on, I'd find another crack 2 or 3 feet further down the pipe.
After a while I got so frustrated I went to an auto parts store and
bought 20 feet of heater hose, which I used to make a temporary repair
that I left in place for several weeks.

Not sure about insulating the pipe overnight. I would guess that if it
adequately below the frost line, maybe covering it in several layers
of fiberglass batting insulation would work. Hope somebody has
a proven idea that will work for you.

Do you have any water to your house now, or did you have to shut it
of at the street? Good luck to you!

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

Ah, think I just got your point. Basically the mirror of what another
suggested to do in copper.

In otherwords you are saying, sweat a female copper fitting to my copper
pipe. Glue a pvc male fitting to a pvc pipe. Put that in the hole, cut the
pvc to length, screw the pvc into the copper, and then glue-in a repair pvc
coupler. Interesting.. and certainly the least expensive. I guess it comes
down to -- what's easier / better.. the pvc repair coupler or the copper
version. Yep, I can see how time is of the essence w/ the pvc coupler!
I've done enough pvc gluing to get the idea and get all the ducks in a row
before making the first contact!!

One advantage of the copper is that I can use a bit of the soft copper and
build-in a shock absorber of sorts.

"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Bob,
Thanks.

It's pretty simple really I'm beginning to think. Basically, when I cut
away the remains of the original joints, I'll have 3/4" copper and 3/4"
pvc
about 12" apart. I need to join the two together. Another poster sorted
it
out for me. Sweat a female threaded fitting to 12" or so of 3/4" Copper
pipe. Screw in a 3/4" male pvc fitting. Take that into the hole, test
fit,
and cut the copper to length, and slide on the copper repair coupling
fitting. Glue the pvc fitting to the pvc pipe. (I figure I may as well
screw in the pvc male fitting to the copper female while I'm out of the
hole
and can work with it more easily.) Now slide the coupling over the two
copper pipes and sweat 'em together. That's probably as good as it's
going
to get. Alternatively, that 12" or so of ridgid copper could be 18" or so
of flex (not the water heater stuff, but rather the stuff that can come in
big rolls) with an S shape. That would give the whole assembly some
"flex".
I like that idea.. kinda like a shock absorber, and it's the same number
of
joints.

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 28, 6:06 pm, zxcvbob wrote:
Coloradotrout wrote:
I may have confused this a bit.

The copper from the house is 3/4". So I need to go from 3/4" Cu
pipe
to
3/4" pvc.

So I think Jim's point was..

3/4" Cu mainline | Cu repair coupling | 3/4" Cu pipe (length cut to
fit, or
use soft and make S or U shape) | female Cu adapter | male pvc
adapter
|
3/4" pvc

All the above are 3/4" pipes and fittings.

It looks like you were thinking I had a 1" Cu pipe from the house.
The
original had a 1" female adapter brazed to the 3/4" line. Then a
brass 1"
male to 3/4" male (threads both ends, the 1" end had a
compression-like
fitting to that 1" female adapter), then a 3/4" pvc female, then the
3/4"
pvc pipe. There were all RH threads, so it was assembled
sequentially.
Can't do that now ;-)

It's probably best to cut off that initial fitting and use the
repair
coupling. At least that is my thought.

I do like the idea of a short run of flex copper.I thought you had
1"
from the house, joined to 3/4" from the meter.
Make sure the flex copper (you mean soft "L" copper tubing, or flex
like
a
gas line?) is OK for direct burial. The flexible section needs to be
bent
into a snake or something. If it's perfectly straight, it can't
provide
the necessary slack if it needs to stretch.

Best regards,
Bob


I don't think I'm following the thread very well but ......

I would suggest doing all the repairs in PVC.

The best is a male PVC thread into a female copper fitting, if I read
everything correctly you have a threaded female copper fitting in the
mix somewhere.

If you have enough PVC exposed you can bend it out of the ways such
that you can use a PVC slip (glue coupling to make the lsat PVC
connected.

File out the stop in the PVC coupling such that it slide all the way
passed the end of the pipe when glue is applied

Gotta work fast.......

prime both ends of the PVC to be joined AND the coupling
slather up the pipe ends w/ glue, then the coupling then a quick
recoat on the pipes
slid the coupling on passed one pipe
align the pipe, slid the coupling to center position & give it a1/4
twist to smear glue

like I said, you gotta work fast!
no margin for error.....but you can always cut it out

If you've never done one of these I suggest a practice run with scrap
material.

I'd insulate the hole...a couple layers of cardboard or burlap will
work but I'd add a 100 watt light bulb to the hole since you're gonna
get down into the teens.

cheers
Bob

cheers

Local plumbing supply suggested..

copper pipe | 1" female flare fitting | 1" male flare fitting to 3/4" male
threads (all original to this point) | 3/4" threaded brass female coupler |
3/4" male threads scd 80 pvc to straight pvc pipe | sch 80 pvc coupler |
existing pvc pipe

With this there are no sweat joints. According to them, underground sweat
joints should be avoided. Anyone have any comments on this?

The 'trick' to this setup is to get the coupler in-place. This coupler has
a ridge in the middle, so I'll need to test fit to see if I can make it
work. That's about 1" of "jockeying" to get it to fit together.


"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female connector --
1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are looking
to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts? (would
a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)

I had already suggested one of these:
http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u542829

The "wiggle" room is built into he piece.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Local plumbing supply suggested..

copper pipe | 1" female flare fitting | 1" male flare fitting to
3/4" male
threads (all original to this point) | 3/4" threaded brass
female coupler |
3/4" male threads scd 80 pvc to straight pvc pipe | sch 80 pvc
coupler |
existing pvc pipe

With this there are no sweat joints. According to them,
underground sweat
joints should be avoided. Anyone have any comments on this?

The 'trick' to this setup is to get the coupler in-place. This
coupler has
a ridge in the middle, so I'll need to test fit to see if I can
make it
work. That's about 1" of "jockeying" to get it to fit together.


"Coloradotrout" wrote in
message
...
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is
about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid
copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector --
1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid
brass) -- PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH
threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a
new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We
are looking
to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a
problem waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper
pipe -- 3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to
slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6.
Thoughts? (would
a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed.
Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half
way)

It's a done deal.

I ended up test fitting to length and then cutting my new 3/4" pvc (male
thread on one end) and glueing that to the existing pvc w/ a coupler. Then
came the hard part -- getting the flare fitting male to thread into the
female. Part of the issue was there was not good way to work inside the
tight hole. But eventually.. I got it started and so far so good.

I'd be really interested to understand how to file out the ridge of a pvc
coupler. That seems like a slick solution in some of these situations.

So the final result is..

3/4" soft copper | female flare fitting | male flare fitting -to- male 3/4"
threads | 3/4" brass female coupler | 3/4" scd 80 male threaded pipe (cut to
length) | pvc coupler | original 3/4" pvc pipe

Now if I can hold out during these sub zero degree nights.. and it holds..
then when our soil thaws I can fill the hole back up. As it is.. I have the
pipes covered w/ pizza boxes, 2x6's, and under an infrared heat lamp, and
the hole covered w/ a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

If this ever happens to you, schedule it for 60 degree days ;-)

"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Local plumbing supply suggested..

copper pipe | 1" female flare fitting | 1" male flare fitting to 3/4" male
threads (all original to this point) | 3/4" threaded brass female coupler
|
3/4" male threads scd 80 pvc to straight pvc pipe | sch 80 pvc coupler |
existing pvc pipe

With this there are no sweat joints. According to them, underground sweat
joints should be avoided. Anyone have any comments on this?

The 'trick' to this setup is to get the coupler in-place. This coupler
has
a ridge in the middle, so I'll need to test fit to see if I can make it
work. That's about 1" of "jockeying" to get it to fit together.


"Coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
I have a 15 year-old home.

Water line between street(meter) and home was leaking (line is about 60
feet).

A large sinkhole developed. I dug down 7' to find the solid copper line
from the house joined to PVC. The connection was as follows.

3/4" copper line from house (10') -- brazed to 1" female
connector --
1"
male nipple w/ threads to 3/4" male threaded fitting (solid brass) --
PVC
3/4" female thread to 3/4" slip -- 3/4" pvc pipe

The PVC slip connector sheared off. All of these are RH threads, and no
unions. So it all had to be assembled sequentially.

How do I fix this? The right solution in my mind is to run a new trench
and
lay continuous copper. I don't believe that is feasible. We are
looking
to
spend another 1-2 years here. But I hate leaving anyone a problem
waiting
to happen. Going to Lowes/HD, the best I can come up with is:

3/4" copper line from house -- 3/4" union -- short copper pipe --
3/4"
male thread adapter -- 3/4" PVC female thread adapter to slip -- pvc
pipe

The original solution was 4 joints. The above is 6. Thoughts?
(would
a
3/4" female adapter -- 3/4" male pvc to slip be better)

I can do basic sweating of copper. But I've never brazed. Should my
copper
joints be brazed?

Thoughts? Ideas? Volunteers (just kidding.. at least half way)