I have been rewiring a dining room in a 1930's home. In new
construction outlets are linked together by wires running horizontally
through the studs. I haven't been able to find any guidelines for how
to run wires when rewiring. The most logical way seems to be running
wire through floor joists underneath the room in the unfinished
basement. I have a couple of choices. I can run wire from outlet to
outlet, passing the wire under the floor, or I can wire to junction
boxes under each outelt with a wire extending to each outlet. The
latter would allow me to use less wire and fewer holes through the
joists. The first way would mean that I would use fewer junction
boxes. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to either way? Anyone
know of any guidlines for rewiring? Most of the info I have found is
on wiring new construction.

Thanks

According to jimbob :
I have been rewiring a dining room in a 1930's home. In new
construction outlets are linked together by wires running horizontally
through the studs. I haven't been able to find any guidelines for how
to run wires when rewiring. The most logical way seems to be running
wire through floor joists underneath the room in the unfinished
basement. I have a couple of choices. I can run wire from outlet to
outlet, passing the wire under the floor, or I can wire to junction
boxes under each outelt with a wire extending to each outlet. The
latter would allow me to use less wire and fewer holes through the
joists. The first way would mean that I would use fewer junction
boxes. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to either way? Anyone
know of any guidlines for rewiring? Most of the info I have found is
on wiring new construction.

I've done the j-box approach myself. The feeds to each outlet
box were AC armor, because it was thru a wall that was just
lathe over masonry. Saved a fair bit in armor cable costs.

Inspectors don't like seeing lots of unnecessary J boxes. J boxes
also may present some difficulties if you want to finish the basement.

An inspector probably wouldn't mind this.

However, for a single room you're unlikely to save enough money
to notice. Indeed, the jbox approach may be more expensive.
But quicker.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"jimbob" wrote in message
ps.com...
or I can wire to junction
boxes under each outelt with a wire extending to each outlet. The
latter would allow me to use less wire and fewer holes through the
joists.

I don't understand the "fewer holes through the joists" point. From the
first outlet, you'd run a wire down through the floor, through any necessary
joists, to a point below the second outlet, where it would go up. You'd run
a 2nd wire from that outlet back down, through any necessary joists (which
shouldn't be the same ones as before) to the 3rd outlet, etc. The only
"extra wire" is the doubled run between the floor joists and the outlet -- a
few feet at most, which is insignficant in cost compared to junction boxes,
covers, and wire nuts you'd need for the other approach. I also think this
would be less labor intensive than the J-box approach, and more reliable
(less connections = better).

-Tim

Depending upon your city's building code... here there has to be access to
j boxes. So whereever there is a jbox there is a cover. This, as mentioned
by Chris, may be an issue if you wish to finish off the basement later. I
would go with Tim's less is better. Be sure to check on the position for
drilling your holes through your joists. I am not up on these codes but I
think it is something like, no closer than two inches from the floor
upstairs. So no one later nails through and hits your wire, but the center
of the joist is better. That way if you enclose it later you can nail into
the joist from the bottom and not hit the wire either.

What I would have done differently: In my old house I wish I would have
made each improvement on its own circuit instead of connecting up to the
old run. Older homes didn't use power the way we do. If you might use a
coffee urn in the dining room and some other appliance that may draw a lot
you may want to check out what else is on this old circuit. My coffee urn
when hosting lunches can trip my breaker if the other outlets have a
number of items plugged in, like Christmas lights or whatever. Good luck.
______________

KaCe

You're right, it would be easier just running the extra cable.
Screwing junction boxes into my ironwood floor joists and splicing all
those connections is a real PITA and will cause all sorts of problems
when I refinish the basement. I will have some work to redo, but I
think it will be worth it. I will have wasted time and some wire. Oh
well.

Thanks.

glassartist wrote:
Depending upon your city's building code... here there has to be access to
j boxes. So whereever there is a jbox there is a cover. This, as mentioned
by Chris, may be an issue if you wish to finish off the basement later. I
would go with Tim's less is better. Be sure to check on the position for
drilling your holes through your joists. I am not up on these codes but I
think it is something like, no closer than two inches from the floor
upstairs. So no one later nails through and hits your wire, but the center
of the joist is better. That way if you enclose it later you can nail into
the joist from the bottom and not hit the wire either.

What I would have done differently: In my old house I wish I would have
made each improvement on its own circuit instead of connecting up to the
old run. Older homes didn't use power the way we do. If you might use a
coffee urn in the dining room and some other appliance that may draw a lot
you may want to check out what else is on this old circuit. My coffee urn
when hosting lunches can trip my breaker if the other outlets have a
number of items plugged in, like Christmas lights or whatever. Good luck.
______________

KaCe

"jimbob" wrote in message
oups.com...
You're right, it would be easier just running the extra cable.
Screwing junction boxes into my ironwood floor joists and splicing all
those connections is a real PITA and will cause all sorts of problems
when I refinish the basement. I will have some work to redo, but I
think it will be worth it. I will have wasted time and some wire. Oh
well.

Thanks.

glassartist wrote:
Depending upon your city's building code... here there has to be access
to
j boxes. So whereever there is a jbox there is a cover. This, as
mentioned
by Chris, may be an issue if you wish to finish off the basement later.
I
would go with Tim's less is better. Be sure to check on the position for
drilling your holes through your joists. I am not up on these codes but
I
think it is something like, no closer than two inches from the floor
upstairs. So no one later nails through and hits your wire, but the
center
of the joist is better. That way if you enclose it later you can nail
into
the joist from the bottom and not hit the wire either.

What I would have done differently: In my old house I wish I would have
made each improvement on its own circuit instead of connecting up to the
old run. Older homes didn't use power the way we do. If you might use a
coffee urn in the dining room and some other appliance that may draw a
lot
you may want to check out what else is on this old circuit. My coffee
urn
when hosting lunches can trip my breaker if the other outlets have a
number of items plugged in, like Christmas lights or whatever. Good
luck.
______________

KaCe



You may already know this, but receptacles in the dining room are required
to be on a 20 amp circuit. Check article 210.52(B)(1)

#1. It's the same amount of connections if you pigtail the outlet like you
should.
#2. It makes the work at the outlet a lot easier especially if you're using
12ga wire like you should be.

I say go with the J-Boxes.

--
Steve Barker


"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
...
"jimbob" wrote in message
ps.com...
or I can wire to junction
boxes under each outelt with a wire extending to each outlet. The
latter would allow me to use less wire and fewer holes through the
joists.

I don't understand the "fewer holes through the joists" point. From the
first outlet, you'd run a wire down through the floor, through any
necessary joists, to a point below the second outlet, where it would go
up. You'd run a 2nd wire from that outlet back down, through any
necessary joists (which shouldn't be the same ones as before) to the 3rd
outlet, etc. The only "extra wire" is the doubled run between the floor
joists and the outlet -- a few feet at most, which is insignficant in cost
compared to junction boxes, covers, and wire nuts you'd need for the other
approach. I also think this would be less labor intensive than the J-box
approach, and more reliable (less connections = better).

-Tim

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
. com...
#1. It's the same amount of connections if you pigtail the outlet like
you should.
#2. It makes the work at the outlet a lot easier especially if you're
using 12ga wire like you should be.

I work with #12 almost exclusively -- it's not hard to use with the outlet
boxes. I personaly don't see anything wrong with 'daisy chaining' using the
outlet's screws -- frankly I think a screw connection is probably more
reliable than a wire nut. But I realize not everyone thinks this way...

-Tim

doing this is a #1 no no in some electricians eyes. You've created a series
circuit so to speak and if that outlet were to go bad or come loose, then
you loose the power downstream also. Pigtailing is the quality way of doing
things.

--
Steve Barker

"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
. ..

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
. com...
#1. It's the same amount of connections if you pigtail the outlet like
you should.
#2. It makes the work at the outlet a lot easier especially if you're
using 12ga wire like you should be.

I work with #12 almost exclusively -- it's not hard to use with the outlet
boxes. I personaly don't see anything wrong with 'daisy chaining' using
the outlet's screws -- frankly I think a screw connection is probably more
reliable than a wire nut. But I realize not everyone thinks this way...

-Tim

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
doing this is a #1 no no in some electricians eyes. You've created a
series circuit so to speak and if that outlet were to go bad or come
loose, then you loose the power downstream also. Pigtailing is the
quality way of doing things.

I understand that a lot of people like pigtailing, but I don't see why a
properly-installed screw terminal would come loose any more easily than a
properly-installed pigtail...

Or maybe I'm just lazy g. In any case, I've NEVER seen a pigtailed
circuit done in a case where they could have just done a daisy-chain. Even
the circuits that were installed by professional electricians.

-Tim

That's because they take longer. Wouldn't want to take extra time to make
it better when you can short cut and get away with it.

--
Steve Barker



"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
. ..
Or maybe I'm just lazy g. In any case, I've NEVER seen a pigtailed
circuit done in a case where they could have just done a daisy-chain.
Even the circuits that were installed by professional electricians.

-Tim

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
That's because they take longer. Wouldn't want to take extra time to make
it better when you can short cut and get away with it.

--
Steve Barker



"Tim Fischer" wrote in message
. ..
Or maybe I'm just lazy g. In any case, I've NEVER seen a pigtailed
circuit done in a case where they could have just done a daisy-chain.
Even the circuits that were installed by professional electricians.

-Tim

Wirenut connections in a junction box are no "better" or reliable than
terminal screw connections on an outlet. Nor does the junction box reduce
the number of connections. If you count wire ends as connections, for the
two power conductors the junction box method actually increases the number
of wire ends from four to eight. If you count 3 wires in a wirenut as one
connection both methods have four connections.

There are reasons to prefer pigtailing of the wires in an outlet box but the
only reason to move the pigtails to a separate junction box is to reduce the
number of cables to the outlet box. This can be a valid reason if the run is
very long or difficult.

Well established trade practices are not established only because they are
faster or cheaper, although that is a consideration. It is usually a pretty
good idea to follow them (especially for novices) and using a separate
junction box to feed every outlet is not normal practice with most
electricians or in most areas. It is certainly not wrong or unsafe, and if
someone feels that it somehow makes a job better and wants to do it, I see
no problem with it. I would certainly ask my local inspector first, in case
he does not like it.

Don Young

After reading your responses it seems that there is nothing inherantly
unsafe or wrong about using junction boxes. The problem seems to be
creating inaccessible splices that could fail later on and be difficult
to find. Also using a lot of j boxes can make a simple circuit
unecessarely complicated and hard trace later on. It's just not neat
work. Looking at the wiring I have done so far there are a few j
boxes where the cable could have just as easily been spliced in the
outlet box. Those will have to go. There is one j-box however that
makes connecting a few outlets on a longer more difficult run much
easier. This one will stay. In the future, I will try to avoid
overuse iof j boxes and make sure if I do use them that they will be in
areas that will stay accessible. Thanks for the help.

"jimbob" wrote in message
ups.com...
After reading your responses it seems that there is nothing inherantly
unsafe or wrong about using junction boxes. The problem seems to be
creating inaccessible splices that could fail later on and be difficult
to find.

Just to be clear, inaccessible splices are a code vio. If you finish the
basement, each of these j-boxes will need covers that will be visible (so as
to be accessible) when the room is finished.

-Tim

According to Tim Fischer :
"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
doing this is a #1 no no in some electricians eyes. You've created a
series circuit so to speak and if that outlet were to go bad or come
loose, then you loose the power downstream also. Pigtailing is the
quality way of doing things.

I understand that a lot of people like pigtailing, but I don't see why a
properly-installed screw terminal would come loose any more easily than a
properly-installed pigtail...

It's not just a matter of "like". Pigtailing grounds has been
mandatory for a while, as have neutrals in most cases.

It's not a matter of safety of connection per-se, it's more a matter
of safety during rework. Eg: if you pull a device for replacement
(or abandoning it).

Pigtailing a ground means that even if you pull the device out,
the ground is maintained thru to the rest of the circuit, even if
you don't cut the hot.

Similarly, losing a neutral to downstream outlets can be bad.

Especially with shared neutral circuits.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Tim Fischer :

"jimbob" wrote in message
ups.com...
After reading your responses it seems that there is nothing inherantly
unsafe or wrong about using junction boxes. The problem seems to be
creating inaccessible splices that could fail later on and be difficult
to find.

Just to be clear, inaccessible splices are a code vio. If you finish the
basement, each of these j-boxes will need covers that will be visible (so as
to be accessible) when the room is finished.

Accessible doesn't necessarily mean _visible_. Accessible means
that it can be "got at" without removing permanent parts of the
building.

A J box behind drywall is bad. A J box hidden by a wall mirror,
or behind a removable panel etc is fine.

[We "hid" a Jbox behind a recessed lighting fixture that was
held in place by its bezel. Pop the fixture, and the
box is accessible. Perfectly acceptable.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Tim Fischer :

Accessible doesn't necessarily mean _visible_. Accessible means
that it can be "got at" without removing permanent parts of the
building.

True. But he's gonna have a hard time hiding a box every 6-12 feet near
ceiling level. I guess I'm picturing blank covers all over the place...

-Tim

On 15 Oct 2006 11:58:17 -0700, jimbob wrote:
After reading your responses it seems that there is nothing inherantly
unsafe or wrong about using junction boxes. The problem seems to be
creating inaccessible splices that could fail later on and be difficult
to find. Also using a lot of j boxes can make a simple circuit
unecessarely complicated and hard trace later on. It's just not neat

Yup.

How about one centrally located junction box (e.g. under center of
floor) with wires out to each outlet in all directions (like a big ol'
spider). Or perhaps one JB in the NW corner and one in the SE corner,
each feeding two or three outlets on each adjacent wall.

Life isn't just all or nothing.

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:52:20 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Tim Fischer :

Accessible doesn't necessarily mean _visible_. Accessible means
that it can be "got at" without removing permanent parts of the
building.

True. But he's gonna have a hard time hiding a box every 6-12 feet near
ceiling level. I guess I'm picturing blank covers all over the place...

If you're gonna put J boxes up, you might as well stick outlets
in them. Ceiling level outlet are occasionally handy.

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:19:32 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:52:20 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Tim Fischer :

Accessible doesn't necessarily mean _visible_. Accessible means
that it can be "got at" without removing permanent parts of the
building.

True. But he's gonna have a hard time hiding a box every 6-12 feet near
ceiling level. I guess I'm picturing blank covers all over the place...

If you're gonna put J boxes up, you might as well stick outlets
in them. Ceiling level outlet are occasionally handy.


Yes, as are outlets at switch height. They don't get hidden behind
things as easily as those close to the floor, and are easier to reach.
--
69 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 18:25:29 -0600, sylvan butler
wrote:

On 15 Oct 2006 11:58:17 -0700, jimbob wrote:
After reading your responses it seems that there is nothing inherantly
unsafe or wrong about using junction boxes. The problem seems to be
creating inaccessible splices that could fail later on and be difficult
to find. Also using a lot of j boxes can make a simple circuit
unecessarely complicated and hard trace later on. It's just not neat

Yup.

How about one centrally located junction box (e.g. under center of
floor) with wires out to each outlet in all directions (like a big ol'
spider).

That's the way most of my rooms are wired (except the JB is on the
ceiling, as this house is on concrete). I do sometimes with the lights
were on a separate circuit.

Or perhaps one JB in the NW corner and one in the SE corner,
each feeding two or three outlets on each adjacent wall.

Life isn't just all or nothing.

sdb
--
69 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:19:32 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

Sorry, but if I saw a room with a row of ceiling-height outlets on a wall,
I'd just think it was... weird...

There are exceptions, of course, where you might want a single
ceiling-height outlet or so (like near a window, for decorative lighting.

-Tim

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:49:48 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:19:32 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

Sorry, but if I saw a room with a row of ceiling-height outlets on a wall,
I'd just think it was... weird...

There are exceptions, of course, where you might want a single
ceiling-height outlet or so (like near a window, for decorative lighting.


You have something against weird? It's no uglier than a
bunch of featureless cover plates.

If you need an exuse for their presence,
Run a shelf along the wall under them,
or stick nightlights in them and split the
outlets so that half of them are switched.

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:49:48 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:19:32 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

Sorry, but if I saw a room with a row of ceiling-height outlets on a wall,
I'd just think it was... weird...

There are exceptions, of course, where you might want a single
ceiling-height outlet or so (like near a window, for decorative lighting.

-Tim


I've seen one. My grandmother had a high outside outlet put in. That's
just the right place for the holiday lights she wanted.
--
68 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:52:45 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:49:48 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:19:32 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

Sorry, but if I saw a room with a row of ceiling-height outlets on a wall,
I'd just think it was... weird...

There are exceptions, of course, where you might want a single
ceiling-height outlet or so (like near a window, for decorative lighting.


You have something against weird? It's no uglier than a
bunch of featureless cover plates.

If you need an exuse for their presence,
Run a shelf along the wall under them,

To display your extensive collection of decorative electric clocks.

or stick nightlights in them and split the
outlets so that half of them are switched.

--
68 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

According to Mark Lloyd :
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:52:45 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

You have something against weird? It's no uglier than a
bunch of featureless cover plates.

If you need an exuse for their presence,
Run a shelf along the wall under them,

To display your extensive collection of decorative electric clocks.

An electrician friend installs all of the chandeliers he removes
from customer's homes in his garage's ceiling.

He must be up to about 50 of the things in operation by now.

Quite a sight.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Actually when the wiring that room will be done there will only be one
j box that will require some kind of cover /outlet/wallclock/doorbell
etc. 1 wire comes in, 3 go out to outlets, like a spider. The rest
others are next to the service panel. When the basement is finished,
the service panel will be in something like a walk in closet. The j
boxes around it will be easy to access.

On 18 Oct 2006 18:31:49 -0700, "jimbob"
wrote:

Actually when the wiring that room will be done there will only be one
j box that will require some kind of cover /outlet/wallclock/doorbell
etc. 1 wire comes in, 3 go out to outlets, like a spider. The rest
others are next to the service panel. When the basement is finished,
the service panel will be in something like a walk in closet. The j
boxes around it will be easy to access.

Where's the connection to the ceiling light?
--
68 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:49:48 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
You have something against weird? It's no uglier than a
bunch of featureless cover plates.

Exactly. Which is why I wouldn't wire things that way. I said that many
posts ago earlier in this thread...

-Tim