Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:

Your problem of getting suction but not exhaust sort of rules out an open valve.

Re-read his post. It's the other way around. He said there's a "puff"
but "little or no suction". Could be a broken valve spring.

A broken valve spring could make that valve open during the power
stroke when he is turning the engine, thus no suction. During the
compression stroke, the pressure pushes the valve closed and he feels
the compression. Just a working hypothesis. On this engine, the
valves are oriented in the horizontal direction and are driven directly
from the camshaft.


Anyway, I have found it is normally a very easy task on a small engine.

With the right tools maybe.


Yeah, I got it turned around but I don't think that makes a difference
to what I was saying. That is that a stuck open valve would not
produce what he saw. But pulling the head would confirm if it is a
valve problem.

And yeah, pulling the head is usually easy, as long as you don't have to
remove a bunch of other stuff to get at it. And he thought it would be
easy. All I ever used is a socket wrench or even an open end wrench.
Come to think of it that is all I ever used to pull the head on a car
engine but there usually was a lot of stuff to remove before I could get
to them.

Yes, definitely can count revs. Cranking is slow. I'll check with
the parts store and see if they have a starter motor tester. I have a
repair manual with spec for the starter motor.
I found that I can remove the starter motor quite easily without
messing with the flywheel. It is puzzling to me that the manual
suggests removing the flywheel to get to the starter. Doing so might
make removal marginally easier, but getting that flywheel off looks
like a big project unless you just the right tools.
I take it at this point everyone agrees that I need to remove the
head? I'll probably do that on Sunday unless someone can suggest
additional testing before doing so.
Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

Ether or anyone else who can answer: Do you think the possible
valve problem is causing the cranking problem? Or do I still maybe
need a new starter?

It's difficult to say without quantitative information. Can you
quantify how fast the engine is cranking? Put a piece of masking tape
on the rotating screen. Is it slow enough that you can count the revs
while somebody else keeps time?

Or, how difficult is it to pull the starter? Your local parts store
that charges batteries for free sounds helpful. Do they have a test
stand for testing small engine starter motors?

PaulD wrote:

Yes, definitely can count revs. Cranking is slow. I'll check with
the parts store and see if they have a starter motor tester. I have a
repair manual with spec for the starter motor.

I found that I can remove the starter motor quite easily without
messing with the flywheel. It is puzzling to me that the manual
suggests removing the flywheel to get to the starter. Doing so might
make removal marginally easier, but getting that flywheel off looks
like a big project unless you just the right tools.

I take it at this point everyone agrees that I need to remove the
head? I'll probably do that on Sunday unless someone can suggest
additional testing before doing so.

Does your tractor have an hour-meter? The repair manual for your
engine says that the heads should be pulled and combustion chamber
deposits removed every 100 to 300 hours. Has that ever been done for
your engine? If it's 13 years old, I imagine it's due.

Mine is just completing its sixth mowing season and has 180 hours on
it. I haven't pulled the heads yet.

Rich256 wrote:

Yeah, I got it turned around but I don't think that makes a difference
to what I was saying. That is that a stuck open valve would not
produce what he saw.

I don't recall anyone postulating that a stuck-open valve might cause
the symptoms Paul described. A broke valve spring might, though (on
theoretical grounds - I've never had the pleasure of actually
witnessing the symptoms of a broken valve spring).

Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:

Yeah, I got it turned around but I don't think that makes a difference
to what I was saying. That is that a stuck open valve would not
produce what he saw.

I don't recall anyone postulating that a stuck-open valve might cause
the symptoms Paul described. A broke valve spring might, though (on
theoretical grounds - I've never had the pleasure of actually
witnessing the symptoms of a broken valve spring).


Again I agree. Just that if the head is easily available it is a quick
way to eliminate the problem of a broken valve. I have seen both broken
and stuck valves.

I can't see that really being related to the starter problems. But I
can't see the starter problem having anything to do with the original
problem of the engine running rough and then dieing either!!

My thoughts keep going back to something electrical. What kind of
ignition does that engine have?

This is an older tractor. I am thinking that some thing caused the
tractor to stall out. Then when my son tried to get it going again he
shot the starter, that may have been on its last legs anyway. It is
possible that the two problems are related, but they might not be.

Rich256 wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:

Yeah, I got it turned around but I don't think that makes a difference
to what I was saying. That is that a stuck open valve would not
produce what he saw.

I don't recall anyone postulating that a stuck-open valve might cause
the symptoms Paul described. A broke valve spring might, though (on
theoretical grounds - I've never had the pleasure of actually
witnessing the symptoms of a broken valve spring).


Again I agree. Just that if the head is easily available it is a quick
way to eliminate the problem of a broken valve. I have seen both broken
and stuck valves.

I can't see that really being related to the starter problems. But I
can't see the starter problem having anything to do with the original
problem of the engine running rough and then dieing either!!

My thoughts keep going back to something electrical. What kind of
ignition does that engine have?

PaulD wrote:

This is an older tractor. I am thinking that some thing caused the
tractor to stall out. Then when my son tried to get it going again he
shot the starter,

This may be the most likely scenario. A "casacading" failure, of
sorts, instead of a single failure causing both symptoms.


...that may have been on its last legs anyway.

Well, it doesn't owe you anything, after 13 years, I suppose.


It is possible that the two problems are related, but they might not be.

Right. There are very few single failures that would cause both
symptoms. The only one I could think of was a valve problem. You have
some qualitative test results which tend to support this hypothesis
("slow" cranking & different puff/suction behavior between the two
spark plug holes), but without quantitative measures it's not very
conclusive.

Not that old. I have an edger I bought in 1963. Still works great.
Especially after I switched to Mobil 1 oil. Only thing I ever did to it
was replace the spring on the throttle.

Now you have us all curious and hope to hear what the solution is. I
keep coming back to the electrical system which could be related to both
symptoms. Not getting enough voltage to the starter. I was wondering
what type of ignition system it has. That is electronic from the
battery or Magneto.



PaulD wrote:
This is an older tractor. I am thinking that some thing caused the
tractor to stall out. Then when my son tried to get it going again he
shot the starter, that may have been on its last legs anyway. It is
possible that the two problems are related, but they might not be.

Rich256 wrote:
Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:

Yeah, I got it turned around but I don't think that makes a difference
to what I was saying. That is that a stuck open valve would not
produce what he saw.
I don't recall anyone postulating that a stuck-open valve might cause
the symptoms Paul described. A broke valve spring might, though (on
theoretical grounds - I've never had the pleasure of actually
witnessing the symptoms of a broken valve spring).

Again I agree. Just that if the head is easily available it is a quick
way to eliminate the problem of a broken valve. I have seen both broken
and stuck valves.

I can't see that really being related to the starter problems. But I
can't see the starter problem having anything to do with the original
problem of the engine running rough and then dieing either!!

My thoughts keep going back to something electrical. What kind of
ignition does that engine have?

Rich256 wrote:


Now you have us all curious and hope to hear what the solution is. I
keep coming back to the electrical system which could be related to both
symptoms.

What single electrical cause do you have in mind, specifically, that
would cause both slow engine stalling AND slow cranking, that hasn't
already been ruled out by the tests that Paul has conducted?


Not getting enough voltage to the starter.

Starter is getting 9.5 volts under load. That should be enough to
crank the engine, no?

I was wondering what type of ignition system it has. That is electronic from the
battery or Magneto.

Magneto, with either an electronic module or breaker points. I think
Paul's engine has the electronic module instead of points.

Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:


Now you have us all curious and hope to hear what the solution is. I
keep coming back to the electrical system which could be related to both
symptoms.

What single electrical cause do you have in mind, specifically, that
would cause both slow engine stalling AND slow cranking, that hasn't
already been ruled out by the tests that Paul has conducted?


Not getting enough voltage to the starter.

Starter is getting 9.5 volts under load. That should be enough to
crank the engine, no?


I really don't know. It sounds rather low to me. With a small engine I
would expect the battery voltage to be a bit higher. And I wonder what
he calls slow cranking. Maybe it is still fast enough that it should
try to start. I would jumper a big car battery to just be sure. Hard
to guess from here not seeing and hearing what it sounds like.

If I could feel how difficult it is to turn over by hand I might get
different thoughts.

At this point I know I am just throwing out wild ideas. Trying to
reconcile the problem running with the crank problem and keep coming
back to electrical.

A magneto system would not be affected by the battery. Yeah, I would
expect it would have the module. When did they come out? 30 years ago.

I know from experience with them you can test the spark system by
holding the wire and turning the flywheel by hand!! Not that I ever did
that intentionally but I was close enough to the wire that I got bit.
Should know better too because I have gotten bit more times than I
should have but fortunately not by really high voltages that I have
worked with at times (30,000 volts on Radar Transmitters). But with
that you might not be around to tell about it later on.

I was wondering what type of ignition system it has. That is electronic from the
battery or Magneto.

Magneto, with either an electronic module or breaker points. I think
Paul's engine has the electronic module instead of points.

I pulled the cylinder head on the side where I was not getting suction.
Neither valve is broke or sticking. I thought the intake valve could
use a little cleaning. Otherwise, I cranked through the various cycles
and the valves moved properly through each cycle.

I think I will pull the cylinder head on the other side just to do the
standard maintenance of removing carbon and to visually compare the two
sides.

I'll make some calls on Monday to see if someone can test the starter.
I did try jumping directly from the battery to the starter and this did
not resolve the cranking issue. At this point, I am fairly convinced
that the starter is bad.

I learned from my son that he had accidently been cranking the engine
while the blades were engaged. The engine will not start when the
blades are engaged. This may very well have contributed to stress on
the starter.
Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

This is an older tractor. I am thinking that some thing caused the
tractor to stall out. Then when my son tried to get it going again he
shot the starter,

This may be the most likely scenario. A "casacading" failure, of
sorts, instead of a single failure causing both symptoms.


...that may have been on its last legs anyway.

Well, it doesn't owe you anything, after 13 years, I suppose.


It is possible that the two problems are related, but they might not be.

Right. There are very few single failures that would cause both
symptoms. The only one I could think of was a valve problem. You have
some qualitative test results which tend to support this hypothesis
("slow" cranking & different puff/suction behavior between the two
spark plug holes), but without quantitative measures it's not very
conclusive.

At least you have that area cleared. And something that should be done
every now and then.

And of course we still wonder if there could be two problems. The
starter should not have any connection to running rough. Now without
getting started you can't get back to that problem either.

And I would be concerned about that little battery. I expect all that
testing would be running it down. You really should have a little
charger to keep it charged. If you don't already have one it is a good
investment. For it I would go for one that has a 2 amp mode. I like
those that have both 2 and at least 12 amp modes. Since I charge RV
batteries I also look for a "smart charger".

Does the battery have caps? That is can you check the state of charge
with a hydrometer?

PaulD wrote:
I pulled the cylinder head on the side where I was not getting suction.
Neither valve is broke or sticking. I thought the intake valve could
use a little cleaning. Otherwise, I cranked through the various cycles
and the valves moved properly through each cycle.

I think I will pull the cylinder head on the other side just to do the
standard maintenance of removing carbon and to visually compare the two
sides.

I'll make some calls on Monday to see if someone can test the starter.
I did try jumping directly from the battery to the starter and this did
not resolve the cranking issue. At this point, I am fairly convinced
that the starter is bad.

I learned from my son that he had accidently been cranking the engine
while the blades were engaged. The engine will not start when the
blades are engaged. This may very well have contributed to stress on
the starter.
Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

This is an older tractor. I am thinking that some thing caused the
tractor to stall out. Then when my son tried to get it going again he
shot the starter,
This may be the most likely scenario. A "casacading" failure, of
sorts, instead of a single failure causing both symptoms.


...that may have been on its last legs anyway.
Well, it doesn't owe you anything, after 13 years, I suppose.


It is possible that the two problems are related, but they might not be.
Right. There are very few single failures that would cause both
symptoms. The only one I could think of was a valve problem. You have
some qualitative test results which tend to support this hypothesis
("slow" cranking & different puff/suction behavior between the two
spark plug holes), but without quantitative measures it's not very
conclusive.

I bought a new starter and installed it. The tractor started right
up. I mowed our lawn. My son mowed the neighbor's lawn. No problems.
So I guess whatever caused it to stall out initially will remain a
mystery. I would like to thank everyone who gave advice. The advice
was very helpful and I learned alot.
For the benefit of the archive, here are some additional things I
learned along the way.
1) I checked the local B&S service dealers for a new starter. Their
prices were very expensive, almost so expensive that it would not be
worthwhile to make the repair. I found a dealer on EBAY who was
selling an after-market replacement for a fraction of the cost of the
B&S with a one-year guarantee. I emailed him and he was also willing
to sell a B&S replacement part at a much better price than local
dealers. Since this was an older tractor (13 years old), I went with
the after-market which was about 50% cheaper than B&S.

2) The Briggs and Stratton repair manual says to remove the flywheel
to get to the starter. I was able to easily remove and replace the
starter without touching the flywheel. Maybe there are some versions
of my engine model that are put together a little differently. For
mine, however, messing with the flywheel would have been pointless and
made the job much more difficult.

2) I ended up removing both cylinder heads to check the valves and
engine condition. While they were off, I cleaned the carbon deposits.
I particularly noticed some carbon deposits around the valve seals.
Although the deposits were not preventing the valves from closing may
have interefered with an optimal seal. WOW, cleaning made a huge
difference. The egine went from sounding tired and missing fairly
frequently to sounding like a brand new engine. Doing this standard
maintenance was definitely worth the time. If someone else does this,
however, just make sure you have the manual for the bolt tightening
sequences and torques.
wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

PaulD wrote:
I bought a new starter and installed it. The tractor started right
up. I mowed our lawn. My son mowed the neighbor's lawn. No problems.
So I guess whatever caused it to stall out initially will remain a
mystery. I would like to thank everyone who gave advice. The advice
was very helpful and I learned alot.
For the benefit of the archive, here are some additional things I
learned along the way.
1) I checked the local B&S service dealers for a new starter. Their
prices were very expensive, almost so expensive that it would not be
worthwhile to make the repair. I found a dealer on EBAY who was
selling an after-market replacement for a fraction of the cost of the
B&S with a one-year guarantee. I emailed him and he was also willing
to sell a B&S replacement part at a much better price than local
dealers. Since this was an older tractor (13 years old), I went with
the after-market which was about 50% cheaper than B&S.

2) The Briggs and Stratton repair manual says to remove the flywheel
to get to the starter. I was able to easily remove and replace the
starter without touching the flywheel. Maybe there are some versions
of my engine model that are put together a little differently. For
mine, however, messing with the flywheel would have been pointless and
made the job much more difficult.

2) I ended up removing both cylinder heads to check the valves and
engine condition. While they were off, I cleaned the carbon deposits.
I particularly noticed some carbon deposits around the valve seals.
Although the deposits were not preventing the valves from closing may
have interefered with an optimal seal. WOW, cleaning made a huge
difference. The egine went from sounding tired and missing fairly
frequently to sounding like a brand new engine. Doing this standard
maintenance was definitely worth the time. If someone else does this,
however, just make sure you have the manual for the bolt tightening
sequences and torques.
wrote:


Thanks for the informative update. And you were correct all along that
your main problem was the starter. And it could be that the carbon was
causing some of the running problems. A tiny leak there can make a huge
difference in performance.

As for tightening the head bolts, the main thing is to bring them all
down slowly and evenly. Keep going around slightly tightening a bit at
a time. What torque did your manual specify?

PaulD wrote:

2) I ended up removing both cylinder heads to check the valves and
engine condition. While they were off, I cleaned the carbon deposits.
I particularly noticed some carbon deposits around the valve seals.
Although the deposits were not preventing the valves from closing may
have interefered with an optimal seal. WOW, cleaning made a huge
difference. The egine went from sounding tired and missing fairly
frequently to sounding like a brand new engine

This may have been why the engine stalled in the first place. Then
the old and tired starter gave up the ghost when your son cranked it a
lot in an effort to restart the engine with the blades engaged.