I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia

I would suggest getting a window air conditioner and cooling just one room
instead of the whole house.


"Kravynn" wrote in message
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia

"Kravynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly.

I have to wonder if the AC is sized properly. If it is set to 80, it shold
be 80. Take a reading with a regular thermometer and see what it reads. Of
course, 80 degrees, properly de-humidified, wil feel much colder th an what
you are used to. Only way to tell for s ure is to take actual readings of
temperatures since one person's hot is another person's cold.


At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400.

My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house

Your brother does not seem to know much about electricity. Did he do a load
calculation or take readings with an Amprobe? The meter reads the amount
of energy passing through the wires. It does not give a damn about hte size
of the box and number or size of breakers inside of it. Undersized can
cause problems, but not high bills.


since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Use less AC as a start. That has to be the biggest culprit. Do you know
what sized the unit is? How much current the compressor takes? That will
give you an idea of the cost of running it for an hour with a simple
calculation. Keep setting the thermostat higher u ntil you get to the stage
of dis-comfort, regardless of w hat the numbers on hte setting are.

If the $450 electric bill is more than your rent, do not move to New
England. Small house would be $1000 or more.

Kravynn wrote:
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia



It sounds to me like there's not much insulation in the attic, and/or
the attic is not ventilated. Climb up on a chair and feel of the
ceiling and see if it's hot.

Also, the landlord probably put in the cheapest and least efficient AC
unit he could find cuz he doesn't have to pay the electric bill.

Bob

Kravynn wrote:
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia

On the average your 150 amp box will furnish more power than you are
possibly using unless your are in a 5-6 bedroom home and running a lot
of electric connections full time.
You need to trade that brother off for a new electrician.
You could have a faulty electric meter, that is not registering
correctly. ? I'd ask Electric Co to check meter.
Jack

Kravynn wrote:
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
....
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

I'll second the thought that the service panel isn't the cause of the
high usage (and a high bill implies high consumption).

There is one possibility not mentioned so far although I suspect it
won't turn out to be the primary culprit but that is it is possible for
a meter to go out of calibration. The utility company will check them
on request.

I suspect Bob nailed the primary culprit--given it's a 50's block house
in FL, one would suspect it has very little if any insulation and quite
possibly a lot of leaky (as in air flow) windows and doors, air
infiltration around electrical outlets, etc. -- iow, the house is
probably just not at all energy efficient. Your local utility company
may also still have consumer energy-efficiency teams that will do
inspections for no or little charge to point out specific areas that
can be easily fixed. The "feels warm" test on the ceiling someone else
mentioned is a real good clue that you have a problem.

Another mentioned that the landlord almost certainly replaced the old
unit w/ another as cheaply as possible means the efficiency may not be
much, if any, higher than the unit it replaced, only that it has a full
charge so will actually cool. Some old wall thermostats are
notoriously inaccurate to begin with and only get worse w/ age--if a
new thermostat wasn't installed w/ the new AC it's quite possible it is
off by several degrees. The old one here has a seemingly variable
amount of hysteresis, particularly on the "off" side--it can sometimes
seem to be 3 to 4 degrees below the setpoint before it actually shuts
off. Checking actual temperatures w/ a good thermometer to see where
it really is is a good idea. You also might experiment to see if you
leave the fan running that you could set the thermostat several degrees
warmer and still be reasonably comfortable, as well.

In the end, if you discover (as I suspect) that the above factors are
all true in greater or lesser degree and the landlord isn't willing to
improve the house (and it's highly unlikely he'll want to put in yet
another, more expensive, A/C anytime _real_ soon ), your best
alternative at that point may be to try to find a more energy-efficient
place to live.

Some good advice so far. I will post inline as you asked your questions.
Go to the end for another thing to look at...

Kravynn wrote:
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400.

Set your thermostat as high as you are comfortable. Also consider
getting a set-back thermostat (it has a timer to turn on/off when you
are not at home)


My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.

If your brother really is an electrician I suspect you have
mis-understood what he has said. This does not make sense.

I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia


OK - AC IS a big draw on electricity. As others have said, insulation
and attic ventilation will help. Also, dark drapes on the sunny side
will help keep things cooler when running AC.

Look at other things drawing electricity. An old refrigerator can cost
over $100 a month run! Electric stove? Other appliances that draw
electricity when not in use? Leaving lights on?

Yea, you probably got the least efficient AC installed but there is
nothing you can do about that now. Check to see if you can find a date
of mfg on your fridge and post back here. I'm suspicious.

Kravynn wrote:

... I was anxious to see my "new" electric bill, only to be devastated
when it came in at $465!

If it's very humid outdoors, you might ask your landlord to airseal
the house, with a blower door test.

Nick

Kravynn wrote:
....
....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

One more diagnostic check...turn absolutely everything in the house off
(unplug the refrigerator if need or wait until it cycles off and trip
the breaker to the water heater) and go check the meter--it should not
be moving. If it is, you have either something still on and drawing
power or a meter problem or a leak-path problem. If this shows a
problem, get your brother back w/ his clamp-on ammeter and have him
help you find out where it's going or have the utility company check
for a service problem on their side first.

The point is, the bill is high because the metered usage is high--you
need to know where the usage is to know what to attack first.

The thought of the refrigerator reminds me of another related to it--if
you haven't done so for a while, check behind it and clean the
coils--they're a wonderful collector and the accumulated dirt and
fuzz-balls kills efficiency.

The AC was all installed brand new about two months ago. To the tune
of about $4500, 12 sear etc. My landlords tend to get a bit fussy when
I mention problems so I had to do all of the shopping for the AC
myself. They know at some point they will have to sell the house and
no one will buy it if it needs a new AC unit etc. When I say it stays
cold in the house set at 80-82 I mean cold, kids wearing sweats and
runny noses. My mom and best friend keep theirs at 72-74 and its
comfortable if not warm in their houses.

My brother is in Colorado, so I called him to ask what he thought. The
house was built in the 50s, since it was built there have been 2 rooms
with electric, a laundry room with electric and an AC unit added (all
in the 70s). The breaker box has not been updated, his though was that
we are pulling more power than the main is "used" to and its working
harder. The fridge coils have been cleaned, but it is an old fridge so
is the stove. These are items I have addressed and landlord is not
willing to replace, because they do work and he doesn't seem to think
that a $500 electric bill is anything I should worry about. If I can
pinpoint the problem I can get it fixed and deduct it from the rent,
but they will not take the iniative to determine the problem.

And my mention to the bill being what my rent is, my rent is
$1100/month, after this month, my electric bill is about the same. I
moved here from CT Im aware of the cost of living up there.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Kravynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly.

I have to wonder if the AC is sized properly. If it is set to 80, it shold
be 80. Take a reading with a regular thermometer and see what it reads. Of
course, 80 degrees, properly de-humidified, wil feel much colder th an what
you are used to. Only way to tell for s ure is to take actual readings of
temperatures since one person's hot is another person's cold.


At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400.

My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house

Your brother does not seem to know much about electricity. Did he do a load
calculation or take readings with an Amprobe? The meter reads the amount
of energy passing through the wires. It does not give a damn about hte size
of the box and number or size of breakers inside of it. Undersized can
cause problems, but not high bills.


since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Use less AC as a start. That has to be the biggest culprit. Do you know
what sized the unit is? How much current the compressor takes? That will
give you an idea of the cost of running it for an hour with a simple
calculation. Keep setting the thermostat higher u ntil you get to the stage
of dis-comfort, regardless of w hat the numbers on hte setting are.

If the $450 electric bill is more than your rent, do not move to New
England. Small house would be $1000 or more.

Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

dpb wrote:
Kravynn wrote:
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
...
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

I'll second the thought that the service panel isn't the cause of the
high usage (and a high bill implies high consumption).

There is one possibility not mentioned so far although I suspect it
won't turn out to be the primary culprit but that is it is possible for
a meter to go out of calibration. The utility company will check them
on request.

I suspect Bob nailed the primary culprit--given it's a 50's block house
in FL, one would suspect it has very little if any insulation and quite
possibly a lot of leaky (as in air flow) windows and doors, air
infiltration around electrical outlets, etc. -- iow, the house is
probably just not at all energy efficient. Your local utility company
may also still have consumer energy-efficiency teams that will do
inspections for no or little charge to point out specific areas that
can be easily fixed. The "feels warm" test on the ceiling someone else
mentioned is a real good clue that you have a problem.

Another mentioned that the landlord almost certainly replaced the old
unit w/ another as cheaply as possible means the efficiency may not be
much, if any, higher than the unit it replaced, only that it has a full
charge so will actually cool. Some old wall thermostats are
notoriously inaccurate to begin with and only get worse w/ age--if a
new thermostat wasn't installed w/ the new AC it's quite possible it is
off by several degrees. The old one here has a seemingly variable
amount of hysteresis, particularly on the "off" side--it can sometimes
seem to be 3 to 4 degrees below the setpoint before it actually shuts
off. Checking actual temperatures w/ a good thermometer to see where
it really is is a good idea. You also might experiment to see if you
leave the fan running that you could set the thermostat several degrees
warmer and still be reasonably comfortable, as well.

In the end, if you discover (as I suspect) that the above factors are
all true in greater or lesser degree and the landlord isn't willing to
improve the house (and it's highly unlikely he'll want to put in yet
another, more expensive, A/C anytime _real_ soon ), your best
alternative at that point may be to try to find a more energy-efficient
place to live.

dpb wrote:
Kravynn wrote:
...
....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

One more diagnostic check...turn absolutely everything in the house off
(unplug the refrigerator if need or wait until it cycles off and trip
the breaker to the water heater) and go check the meter--it should not
be moving. If it is, you have either something still on and drawing
power or a meter problem or a leak-path problem. If this shows a
problem, get your brother back w/ his clamp-on ammeter and have him
help you find out where it's going or have the utility company check
for a service problem on their side first.

The point is, the bill is high because the metered usage is high--you
need to know where the usage is to know what to attack first.

The thought of the refrigerator reminds me of another related to it--if
you haven't done so for a while, check behind it and clean the
coils--they're a wonderful collector and the accumulated dirt and
fuzz-balls kills efficiency.

Reason I know 'bout the fridge thing. Once someone gave my wife one for
a small retail shop she ran. They put it in the basement and the elec
bill was almost $200 higher the next month. We tossed it and bought a
new cheapie and the bill want back down to almost where it was before.

"Kravynn" wrote in message
ups.com...
Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

I'm pretty confident it is the AC.

Go get a thermometer and see what the actual temperature is. As you bring
the temperature down more and more, the cost of doing so increases rapidly.
If it cost $5 to get it down to from 82 to 80, it may take $7 to go from 80
to 78 and it may take $11 to go from 76 to 76.

If the kids are wearing sweaters because it is too cold, when the T'stat is
set to 80, there is something wrong. Get it checked, get if fixed. It
could be a defective thermostat, it could be a defective relay, it could be
a lot of things. Call the AC guy and ask him to come back and check things
over.

It may be new, but that does not mean it is running properly. Make that
call right now.

"Kravynn" wrote in message

My brother is in Colorado, so I called him to ask what he thought. The
house was built in the 50s, since it was built there have been 2 rooms
with electric, a laundry room with electric and an AC unit added (all
in the 70s). The breaker box has not been updated, his though was that
we are pulling more power than the main is "used" to and its working
harder.

There is not tactful way to say this, but your brother is wrong. The main
is not "used to" anything. The meter is what determines the bill and what
passes through it is the power used.

dpb wrote:
All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

Actually, it seems extremely pracitical for a couple reasons.
1. The bill is big enough to be big problem for OP, who needs to cut it
_now_.
2. There is possible problem with t-stat and/or a/c sizing.
3. Central air cools way more of house, possibly, than you'd want to
pay to cool.
4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.
5. Efficience of central a/c is suspect.

I'd ditch the money/energy sucker in a heartbeat.

HTH,
J

Kravynn wrote:
Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

Doesn't matter. D'ja hear the respondent(s) who said to measure the
temps. Get a thermometer, and do it. Then find out what the t-stat is
doing- meaning have a pro do it.

It's obvious, even here, that if the house is being kept at extremely
low temp, with probably no insulation, and questionable sealing, that
you're going to run the a/c pretty hard to handle the heat invading the
place. I'm totally confident of that. :')

You've gotten lots of good advice, but seem immune.

HTH,
J

On 28 Aug 2006 13:00:49 -0700, wrote:

dpb wrote:
All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

Actually, it seems extremely pracitical for a couple reasons.

Maybe not. I expect to open windows and turning off the AC in the next
30 - 45 days. I live in the Mojave desert. In mid to late September it
cools down and we open up the house. Adding cost to AC for a single
mom might not be best for the moment.

Can't speak to the panel.

1. The bill is big enough to be big problem for OP, who needs to cut it
_now_.

Use energy (appliances) during non-peak hours. Kids with a runny
noise can get by without AC, wash clothes off peak, dishwasher during
the night...examples only.

2. There is possible problem with t-stat and/or a/c sizing.

I would do a factory default reset on a digital T-Stat. A non-digital
would go by the way side, in my case.

3. Central air cools way more of house, possibly, than you'd want to
pay to cool.

A season change and the OP can turn it off and open windows.

4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.

A friend had two second floor rooms, extremely hot. When he finally
got up into the space he found three rooms - no insulation by any
means.

5. Efficience of central a/c is suspect.

I'd ditch the money/energy sucker in a heartbeat.

OP spends all the money on a power bill...

Oren

I heard a story at work, a gas utility company. Customer complained about
high gas bills, wanted someone to come out and check the meter and
equipment. Serviceman checks everything, all OK but lots of gas flowing
through the meter. While talking to the customer, serviceman looks out
window on a winter day just after a big snowfall. An outdoor barbecue is
sitting in the back yard with NO snow on it, while everything is covered
with it. They go outdoors and find the BBQ running on high, and has been for
the past 3 months since it was last used. That was the cause of the high
bills.

"No" wrote in message ...
dpb wrote:
Kravynn wrote:
...
....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

One more diagnostic check...turn absolutely everything in the house off
(unplug the refrigerator if need or wait until it cycles off and trip
the breaker to the water heater) and go check the meter--it should not
be moving. If it is, you have either something still on and drawing
power or a meter problem or a leak-path problem. If this shows a
problem, get your brother back w/ his clamp-on ammeter and have him
help you find out where it's going or have the utility company check
for a service problem on their side first.

The point is, the bill is high because the metered usage is high--you
need to know where the usage is to know what to attack first.

The thought of the refrigerator reminds me of another related to it--if
you haven't done so for a while, check behind it and clean the
coils--they're a wonderful collector and the accumulated dirt and
fuzz-balls kills efficiency.

Reason I know 'bout the fridge thing. Once someone gave my wife one for a
small retail shop she ran. They put it in the basement and the elec bill
was almost $200 higher the next month. We tossed it and bought a new
cheapie and the bill want back down to almost where it was before.

On 28 Aug 2006 09:34:29 -0700, "Kravynn"
wrote:

The AC was all installed brand new about two months ago. To the tune
of about $4500, 12 sear etc. My landlords tend to get a bit fussy when
I mention problems so I had to do all of the shopping for the AC
myself.

I don't see that as a problem but as a good thing. That way you could
get what you thought was best and not what he thought you would
probably like. I don't know if in practice that made a difference,
but you would be looking at things from the pov of the tenant, and he
would have a ahrd time doing that.

They know at some point they will have to sell the house and
no one will buy it if it needs a new AC unit etc. When I say it stays
cold in the house set at 80-82 I mean cold, kids wearing sweats and
runny noses.

No wonder your bill is so high! Your house is too cold. Turn the
thermostat warmer. Turn it to 85, 90, or 110 if necessary so that the
house isn't so cold. Otherwise you will continue to have high AC
bills. Don't wait until the electric bill comes. You don't get
something for nothing, and if is cold you're paying for it.

Do you think because the thermostat is set at 82, that it couldn't be
colder than 80? Not true. 82 could result in anything.

My mom and best friend keep theirs at 72-74 and its
comfortable if not warm in their houses.

*If* not warm? You mean "if not cold", right? Or "and not too warm"?
If you don't mean one of those, I don't understand.

If I can
pinpoint the problem I can get it fixed and deduct it from the rent,
but they will not take the iniative to determine the problem.

Even if the AC guys installed a defective thermostat, you have a duty
to mitigate damages, to cause your loss to be as little as possible.
(Well, you have self-interest to make it as little as possible, but if
you are going to try to attribute the loss to the landlord or the AC
guys he hired, you have a duty.) When you saw it was colder than
needed, and than wanted, you should have turned up the thermostat, as
high as it went if neccessary, and if that didn't work, you shoudl
have turned the AC off until the house got hot, then turned it back on
again, over and over. At the same time, you should have called the
landlord and said the thermostat wasn't working, or if you weren't
sure, just told him what you told us. He or the AC people would
conclude there is a problem with the thermostat (or possibly with
something else in the AC) and they would confirm their suspicions with
a test, and then fix it. He has a warranty from the AC people and he
needs to know if something isn't working right, so he can get the AC
people to fix it while the warranty is still in effect.

If you are talking about deducting from the rent the cost for
electricity you've already used, he may be generous for some reason
and let you deduct some of it, but since you haven't done any of the
above, I think you are responsible for the electric bill. Maybe if
you were at work the first day the new AC was running, you weren't
there to know that the thermostat wasn't working, maybe even a second
day, you could make a case you didn't realize there was a problem, but
after that, you should have turned the AC off when everyone left, and
turned it back on when you got home. If you don't want to do that,
you should pay the electric bill. (It will be hard to calculate how
much *additional* electricity was used on the first day or two that it
was cold in the house when no one was there.

As to extra electricity you might use in the future, you should do
what I say above and pay for everything you use.

And my mention to the bill being what my rent is, my rent is
$1100/month, after this month, my electric bill is about the same. I
moved here from CT Im aware of the cost of living up there.

Kravynn wrote:
Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

I can only reemphasize what Edwin and others (and myself) have already
told you--if the house feels this cold, in undoubtedly _IS_ colder than
80F and _SOMETHING_ isn't right. If the actual temperature is
somewhere in the 60's, it's no wonder your power bills are
astronomical. Your first step needs to be to find out independent of
the thermostat what the air temperature is and get the A/C guy out to
find out why you're running so cold. I suppose it's possible the
thermostat is located in a very poor location and is being affected by
something else so it thinks the temperature is 80, but a thermometer
will tell you that, too.

A 12 SEER unit isn't very efficient these days (I don't think it would
qualify for Energy Star rating) but is probably better than what was
there, but if it's running all the time or is actually keeping the
house at 65F, see above.

I also have to agree w/ Edwin and others in that your brother may be an
electrician by trade and capable of performing the mechanical processes
of wiring, etc., but he definitely is way off base on this hypothesis.
It just isn't the way electricity "works". It's certainly not uncommon
that many tradesmen don't know much theoretical behind what they do
routinely.

In summary, given this additional information, the A/C is almost
definitely the problem and the reason is almost certainly that
something isn't right so you need to get the installer out to find out
what the problem actually is and fix it.

wrote:
dpb wrote:
All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

Actually, it seems extremely pracitical for a couple reasons.
1. The bill is big enough to be big problem for OP, who needs to cut it
_now_.
2. There is possible problem with t-stat and/or a/c sizing.
3. Central air cools way more of house, possibly, than you'd want to
pay to cool.
4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.
5. Efficience of central a/c is suspect.

I'd ditch the money/energy sucker in a heartbeat.
....

Certainly spending a few more hundred as the _first_ action w/o even
discovering the problem w/ the _NEW_ installation doesn't seem like the
most practical action to me...

If the bill is an immediate issue, the first expedient is to cut the
unit off for a day or so until the A/C guy can get there and look at it
or control it manually to only cool the house to a comfortable
temperature and then only when it begins to become uncomfortable turn
it back on for a while.

W/ kids in a not huge house (inferred), it's unlikely there's a desire
to only cool one or two rooms, anyway. If so, bedroom registers can be
closed and doors remain closed to minimize the area w/ the central
system while determing the problem.

Insulation is typically pretty cheap and often has cost share and has a
long term payback in both summer and winter that the window unit won't
have.

In summary, if (and only if) there aren't other practical solutions
would it seem to make sense to go that route and certainly not as the
immediate reaction before even finding out the answer to several other
questions.

On 28 Aug 2006 13:51:04 -0700, "dpb" wrote:

find out why you're running so cold. I suppose it's possible the
thermostat is located in a very poor location and is being affected by
something else so it thinks the temperature is 80, but a thermometer
will tell you that, too.

A larger than necessary wiring hole behind the T-Stat can artificially
affect the stat with heat from the wall cavity. I seal-up around the
wire holes.

In summary, given this additional information, the A/C is almost
definitely the problem and the reason is almost certainly that
something isn't right so you need to get the installer out to find out
what the problem actually is and fix it.

The OP can cut back now as mentioned.

I think we pay more $$ during peak hours and $ during non peak hours.
I have to look at this again.

We try to avoid big appliances during the day, really so in the
summer.


Oren

Kravynn wrote:

Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

dpb wrote:

Kravynn wrote:

I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.

...

landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

All other posts (so far) reasonable suggestions altho ditching the new
central A/C for a window unit seems extreme before finding out more...

I'll second the thought that the service panel isn't the cause of the
high usage (and a high bill implies high consumption).

There is one possibility not mentioned so far although I suspect it
won't turn out to be the primary culprit but that is it is possible for
a meter to go out of calibration. The utility company will check them
on request.

I suspect Bob nailed the primary culprit--given it's a 50's block house
in FL, one would suspect it has very little if any insulation and quite
possibly a lot of leaky (as in air flow) windows and doors, air
infiltration around electrical outlets, etc. -- iow, the house is
probably just not at all energy efficient. Your local utility company
may also still have consumer energy-efficiency teams that will do
inspections for no or little charge to point out specific areas that
can be easily fixed. The "feels warm" test on the ceiling someone else
mentioned is a real good clue that you have a problem.

Another mentioned that the landlord almost certainly replaced the old
unit w/ another as cheaply as possible means the efficiency may not be
much, if any, higher than the unit it replaced, only that it has a full
charge so will actually cool. Some old wall thermostats are
notoriously inaccurate to begin with and only get worse w/ age--if a
new thermostat wasn't installed w/ the new AC it's quite possible it is
off by several degrees. The old one here has a seemingly variable
amount of hysteresis, particularly on the "off" side--it can sometimes
seem to be 3 to 4 degrees below the setpoint before it actually shuts
off. Checking actual temperatures w/ a good thermometer to see where
it really is is a good idea. You also might experiment to see if you
leave the fan running that you could set the thermostat several degrees
warmer and still be reasonably comfortable, as well.

In the end, if you discover (as I suspect) that the above factors are
all true in greater or lesser degree and the landlord isn't willing to
improve the house (and it's highly unlikely he'll want to put in yet
another, more expensive, A/C anytime _real_ soon ), your best
alternative at that point may be to try to find a more energy-efficient
place to live.



Sounds to me like you are just floundering around and not approaching
the problem systematically, lady.

What does an accurate thermometer hung next to the thermostat read, when
the rest of the place is as you say, "pretty cold"?

And what does that same thermometer read when placed in the "pretty
cold" parts of the house?

It's quite possible the thermostat is located in a part of the house
where cold air from the system does not reach it until it's "lost a lot
of its cold" and isn't cold enough to make the thermostat switch off
the AC.

You may just need to properly balance the air flows by adjusting
register dampers (Assuming they ARE adjustable.) until you achieve a
relatively acceptable temperatures where you want them.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Kravynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly.

I have to wonder if the AC is sized properly. If it is set to 80, it shold
be 80. Take a reading with a regular thermometer and see what it reads. Of
course, 80 degrees, properly de-humidified, wil feel much colder th an what
you are used to. Only way to tell for s ure is to take actual readings of
temperatures since one person's hot is another person's cold.


At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400.

My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house

Your brother does not seem to know much about electricity. Did he do a load
calculation or take readings with an Amprobe? The meter reads the amount
of energy passing through the wires. It does not give a damn about hte size
of the box and number or size of breakers inside of it. Undersized can
cause problems, but not high bills.


since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Use less AC as a start. That has to be the biggest culprit. Do you know
what sized the unit is? How much current the compressor takes? That will
give you an idea of the cost of running it for an hour with a simple
calculation. Keep setting the thermostat higher u ntil you get to the stage
of dis-comfort, regardless of w hat the numbers on hte setting are.

If the $450 electric bill is more than your rent, do not move to New
England. Small house would be $1000 or more.


Or live in a house or apartment that is insulated.
Don't dispute it but don't know how AC could be
$450 let alone $1000 per month unless one live in
a place where the night temperature was above 90
degrees. Our last month's bill for electricity
was $63 and we keep our AC on 74 degrees.

Yeah I know, our electricity rate is pretty low
and the temp does drop at night, but if you
tripled the rate it you will be above most of the
country and that would only be $189 per month.
And then if you ran the AC 24 hours a day at the
daytime rate you would still not be up to $450.

I would imagine that Florida AC running costs in
the summer would never be more than four times the
cost in Boise.

Several possibilities exist. Stupidity--leaving
the windows open, leaving all the curtains open,
etc. House is mostly a tin shack with no
insulation or something similar. If you rule
those two out then (1) the AC is not working
correctly, (2) some one is stealing the electricity.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
Or live in a house or apartment that is insulated. Don't dispute it but
don't know how AC could be $450 let alone $1000 per month unless one live
in a place where the night temperature was above 90 degrees. Our last
month's bill for electricity was $63 and we keep our AC on 74 degrees.

I've not had a $63 electric bill in years. The last two, with AC were $186
in July, $225 in August and I have a well insulated house, about 2k sq. ft.
Our rate is .162 kWhr. And I'm in Northeast CT, not Florida. If I see an
$85 bill, it is a cheap month with no heating/cooling and minimual light on
long days.



Several possibilities exist. Stupidity--leaving the windows open, leaving
all the curtains open, etc. House is mostly a tin shack with no
insulation or something similar. If you rule those two out then (1) the
AC is not working correctly, (2) some one is stealing the electricity.

The bill was $300 before the new AC. I'm betting on #1

Kravynn posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia


I didn't read through all the responses so I may be repeating others...

The breaker box has nothing to do with electric consumption other than if there
is an internal problem in it which would result in heat or fire. Does the box
allow you to put your hand on it without being burnt? Some parts may be warmer
than others but NOT hot enough to burn.

Looking logically - you had new AC installed - costs go up - you are cold. My
conclusion is AC never shuts off. It could be the thermostat or another
control. What is the problem and solution is not your concern. Call the AC
company back and have them fix it. The landlord should understand that you are
not complaining for the sake of complaining but rather realize that operating
the system in this manner will shorten it's life and increase his costs. The
company sold this saying it would decrease costs and increase comfort - neither
of which it is doing.
--
Tekkie

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:45:54 -0400, mm
wrote:


If I can
pinpoint the problem I can get it fixed and deduct it from the rent,
but they will not take the iniative to determine the problem.

OOps. On rereading this, it seems you were only talking about
deducting what it took to fix your current problem. Sorry.

Still, like a couple others, I think the problem is in the AC, and if
it is something that was replaced or serviced within the 4500 dollars,
the landlord has a warranty, and he should know about it before any
money is spent.

Even if it is some of these other possible problems suggested, the
landlord may not want to pay for it.

I wonder if anyone here could compare the cost of cooling with a good
AC to 72 or 74 degrees when it is set for that, with the cost of
cooling with an undercharged or broken AC to 80 degrees, when it is
set for 72 or 74.

Or a similar question: Does the bad AC use just as much to get to 80
when it is trying and failing to get to 70 as it does when it is only
trying to get to 80?

Even if the AC guys installed a defective thermostat, you have a duty
to mitigate damages, to cause your loss to be as little as possible.
(Well, you have self-interest to make it as little as possible, but if
you are going to try to attribute the loss to the landlord or the AC
guys he hired, you have a duty.) When you saw it was colder than
needed, and than wanted, you should have turned up the thermostat, as
high as it went if neccessary, and if that didn't work, you shoudl
have turned the AC off until the house got hot, then turned it back on
again, over and over. At the same time, you should have called the
landlord and said the thermostat wasn't working, or if you weren't
sure, just told him what you told us. He or the AC people would
conclude there is a problem with the thermostat (or possibly with
something else in the AC) and they would confirm their suspicions with
a test, and then fix it. He has a warranty from the AC people and he
needs to know if something isn't working right, so he can get the AC
people to fix it while the warranty is still in effect.

If you are talking about deducting from the rent the cost for
electricity you've already used, he may be generous for some reason
and let you deduct some of it, but since you haven't done any of the
above, I think you are responsible for the electric bill. Maybe if
you were at work the first day the new AC was running, you weren't
there to know that the thermostat wasn't working, maybe even a second
day, you could make a case you didn't realize there was a problem, but
after that, you should have turned the AC off when everyone left, and
turned it back on when you got home. If you don't want to do that,
you should pay the electric bill. (It will be hard to calculate how
much *additional* electricity was used on the first day or two that it
was cold in the house when no one was there.

As to extra electricity you might use in the future, you should do
what I say above and pay for everything you use.

On 28 Aug 2006 13:08:31 -0700, wrote:


Kravynn wrote:
Im pretty confident that the AC is not the issue. It was replaced with
a new unit inside and out (new digital thermostat as well). The house
stays cold, unusually cold. I dont understand why my electric bill is
more now with a new AC unit set on 80 and feeling like 50, than it was
with the old one set on 60 and the house staying at a temp of 80-85.

Doesn't matter. D'ja hear the respondent(s) who said to measure the
temps. Get a thermometer, and do it. Then find out what the t-stat is
doing- meaning have a pro do it.

It's obvious, even here, that if the house is being kept at extremely
low temp, with probably no insulation, and questionable sealing, that
you're going to run the a/c pretty hard to handle the heat invading the
place. I'm totally confident of that. :')

In a way, the idea that if something is repaired it is now good, or if
it is replaced with new, it is now good, while a compliment to
repairmen, I think ends up with tremendous and often excessive
dissatisfaction on those, hopefully few occasions when something is
repaired or replaced and it's not good.

There can always be bad parts and repairmen can always make a mistake,
if only in not verifying that every part and every feature is working.

The quality of work is partly determined by whether it works well
after he leaves, but also by whether he fixes it well after the
customer discovers the flaw.

But forgetting about judging the quality of work, it's just not true
that when someone fixes something it is guaranteed to be fixed, or
that when someone does anything it is guaranteed to be done.
Assumintg otherwise slows down debugging.

You've gotten lots of good advice, but seem immune.

HTH,
J

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:29:57 -0700, Oren wrote:


4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.

A friend had two second floor rooms, extremely hot. When he finally
got up into the space he found three rooms - no insulation by any
means.

He didn't notice the third room last spring?

mm wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:45:54 -0400, mm
wrote:

....
Or a similar question: Does the bad AC use just as much to get to 80
when it is trying and failing to get to 70 as it does when it is only
trying to get to 80?
....

If it is indeed a "bad" AC, almost assuredly it will use more w/ the
lower setpoint unless it never makes it to either. Otherwise, it would
run essentially continuously either way and given the same outside
conditions the external exchanger to air efficiency would be the same.
So if it can make the setpoint, it will have at least a short period of
respite. While operating, however, the actual efficiency is
essentially independent of setpoint. That's why you won't get the
house any cooler when you come home from vacation if you set the
thermostat at 60F as opposed to 74 or whatever you want the end result
to be. Same thing other way 'round for the furnace--it doesn't heat
any faster to set it on 90 than on 72.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:39:04 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

I heard a story at work, a gas utility company. Customer complained about
high gas bills, wanted someone to come out and check the meter and
equipment. Serviceman checks everything, all OK but lots of gas flowing
through the meter. While talking to the customer, serviceman looks out
window on a winter day just after a big snowfall. An outdoor barbecue is
sitting in the back yard with NO snow on it, while everything is covered
with it. They go outdoors and find the BBQ running on high, and has been for
the past 3 months since it was last used. That was the cause of the high
bills.

OT, but when I was doing some work, with county permission, in public
woods and fields in suburban Baltimore, I found a 2" water pipe
running full blast. It was horizontal and the water was going out 2
1/2 or 3 feet by the time it fell 1 foot.

I called the county water deparment and they wanted the address, but
it had no address, it wasn't even near a street (although it was near
an expressway, I don't think that would be an address). Since there
was no address, they had me call Baltimore City (which is like a
separate county, and about the same size, but with more people) They
wanted the address too, and iirc when it didn't have an address, they
told me to call the county. IIRC it took a month to get the water
turned off, even after I made the last phone call.

On the other side of the xway, and maybe 600 feet, there was an area
an acre or more that was flooded, and we had been waiting for almost a
year for the water to dry up. We thought it was from the stream right
there which we assumed overflowed in heavy rains. Plainly there had
been flooding because the chain link fence that bordered the
expressway had been covered with grass so the water would not flow
through, and then the fence knocked down. So there had been flooding,
but we waited almost a year, checking every 2 to 8 weeks, and I kept
wondering when the dry season would come.

Then I found the pipe, a month to get the water turned off, and in
anotther month, the land was dry, iirc. By then, we had found another
way to do things, so we didn't need to do any work there after all!

This pipe must have been running for at least 11 months, and maybe
much more!

"Kravynn" wrote in message
When I say it stays
cold in the house set at 80-82 I mean cold, kids wearing sweats and
runny noses. My mom and best friend keep theirs at 72-74 and its
comfortable if not warm in their houses.

You're either a troll, or trying for a Darwin Award.

I mean c'mon, instead of setting the thermostat higher, you put sweats on
the kids, and they're having runny noses?

You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

On 28 Aug 2006 05:37:53 -0700, "Kravynn"
wrote:

I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia

your thermostat is not working correctly. Probably wired wrong by
the installer. Call the installer back and he will fix it for free.

"Kravynn" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am renting a house. It is a block house built in the mid-late 50s.
For the first couple of years I was running an electric bill around
$300/ month (I live in Florida, about $200 is average here), and I
couldn't get the temp to drop below 80. I finally convinced my
landlord to get a new AC unit. I was anxious to see my "new" electric
bill, only to be devastated when it came in at $465! I started turning
off my water heater during the day, desperate to save money. I keep
the AC set at about 80-82, and it stays pretty cold in the house. This
leads me to believe that the thermostat may not be working properly. At
any rate, another month has passed and this bill came in at right
around $400. My brother is an electrician, he said I probably need to
have the breaker box updated, to much power running off a 150 amp main.
I know that there have been 2 rooms and an AC unit added to the house
since it was built. I would appreciate any suggestions, ideas,
input....My electric bill is more than my rent at this point. I'm a
single mom and I'm in a state of panic.

Thanks, Katia


Like others mention your thermostat/AC system is out of wack if you are
freezing when the AC is set at 80-82 degrees. The landlord should take care
of this. I had a case where the HVAC duct came off and was cooling the crawl
space. Maybe worth checking for duct leaks too. I would expect a large
utility bill if nothing was done relative to insulation and windows for a
mid 50s house where energy was so cheap then.

As for the breaker box, its properly not the cause of your huge electrical
bill. A lesser effect is when you have a loose connection at the breaker and
you pay a little extra in heating the contact points. Further the wire
insulation wires may burn up and the breaker may trip or fail due to excess
heat. Another thing I could think off is that your panel may be way off
balanced with respect to electrical load where one bus is way overloaded
with respect to the other at he panel. Don't know about your electrical
company but some will bill on the peek values so balancing the panel by
bring the peek load down will bring down the electric bill. Your electrician
brother should know what I'm talking about and could give you more details.
But again don't think the breaker box is the cause of your huge electrical
bill.

not a 2 family home?

in which case your neighbor might be disappointed if you cut him off

dont laugh this occured to a realtive, in a 2 family home.

appears the original owner did some creative wiring to reduce his
el;ectric bill, it was discovered by accident.

caused lots of grief

# Fred # wrote:
....
... your panel may be way off
balanced with respect to electrical load where one bus is way overloaded
with respect to the other at he panel. Don't know about your electrical
company but some will bill on the peek values so balancing the panel by
bring the peek load down will bring down the electric bill. ...

....

I don't believe current residential meters even in areas using peak
rates peek at the individual phases, only the total. It's certainly
possible to do so and is at large commercial 3-phase facilities but I
really do not think it is so for residential customers. What
residential peak rate tariffs I know of are actually only based on TOU
rates--time of usage based on peak _system_ usage times, not actually
rate-based metering at the individual meter.

So, I don't think the distribution panel loading balance would/will
make any difference on the total peak usage monitored before the panel
at the external meter. There obviously could be places which go to
this level, but for residential tariff rules w/ which I am familiar
that is not the case.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:31:17 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:29:57 -0700, Oren wrote:


4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.

A friend had two second floor rooms, extremely hot. When he finally
got up into the space he found three rooms - no insulation by any
means.

He didn't notice the third room last spring?

Apparently not, with the hall and bathroom being smaller. The two
"hot" rooms were on the West wall and were more evident of a problem.

Oren

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:47:11 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:31:17 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:29:57 -0700, Oren wrote:


4. Insulation (toss in sealing) is suspect too, causing a/c to try to
cool the county.

A friend had two second floor rooms, extremely hot. When he finally
got up into the space he found three rooms - no insulation by any
means.

He didn't notice the third room last spring?

Apparently not, with the hall and bathroom being smaller. The two
"hot" rooms were on the West wall and were more evident of a problem.

Oren

A great story!

On 29 Aug 2006 07:27:14 -0700, "dpb" wrote:


I don't believe current residential meters even in areas using peak
rates peek at the individual phases, only the total. It's certainly
possible to do so and is at large commercial 3-phase facilities but I
really do not think it is so for residential customers. What
residential peak rate tariffs I know of are actually only based on TOU
rates--time of usage based on peak _system_ usage times, not actually
rate-based metering at the individual meter.

How do they do that? They don't accelerate the meter during peak
hours, do they? That is, the face of the meter still accurately shows
the watt hours?

Is there a separate counter not shown through the glass that keeps
track of the off-peak (or on-peak) hour use?

I think I now have a radio transmitting meter, so they either have to
drive through the neighborhood, or I'm told maybe they can read the
meter from their office. If the latter, they don't take readings
every time off-peak starts and ends, do they? That would do it but it
seems complicated.

mm wrote:
On 29 Aug 2006 07:27:14 -0700, "dpb" wrote:


....
residential peak rate tariffs I know of are actually only based on TOU
rates--time of usage based on peak _system_ usage times, not actually
rate-based metering at the individual meter.

How do they do that? They don't accelerate the meter during peak
hours, do they? That is, the face of the meter still accurately shows
the watt hours?

Is there a separate counter not shown through the glass that keeps
track of the off-peak (or on-peak) hour use?

Basically, the latter.

TOU meters incorporate a timer and have multiple registers. Residential
variable-rate meters normally only permit two tariffs ("peak" and
"off-peak") and in such installations a simple electromechanical time
switch may be used. The meter will actually have two separate
accumulators only one of which runs at a time--which is selected by the
timer. The meter shows both peak and off-peak usage.

OTOH, large commercial and industrial loads may (do is maybe more
accurate generalization?) use electronic meters which record power
usage in blocks of half an hour or less. These demand-based meters do
record much detail and commercial rates may be predicated on both
time-of-day and system-load as well as the actual load and rate of use
of the premise itself. Many really large industrial users have very
complex load-reduction schemes in place to control their costs by
load-leveling and scheduling.

I think I now have a radio transmitting meter, so they either have to
drive through the neighborhood, or I'm told maybe they can read the
meter from their office. If the latter, they don't take readings
every time off-peak starts and ends, do they? That would do it but it
seems complicated.

No, if it is a new enough meter to incorporate remote reading _and_ is
a dual-tariff meter it is probably microprocessor-based and all of the
computations can be easily incorporated in the firmware. In that case
it will have an onboard clock so the TOD and TOU info is readily
available and the accumulation of usage at any given time is simply an
accumulation into one of a particular number of (virtual, software)
accumulators. There are various levels of hybrid (mechancial verus
microprocessor-based) meters, depending on age and manufacturer in use.

Residential meters still outwardly look a lot like the "same old
meter", but likely have at least some cpu-horsepower in them these
days. But, since in most areas residential rates are still one tariff
only, the emphasis has been on the communications and diagnostics to
try to minimize costs to the utility in eliminating meter-readers and
reducing/detecting tampering.

HTH...