Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
In article , Bud-- wrote:
Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod. Your original statement was: Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system Yep. And that's correct. The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years. It's bonded to the *other* grounding electrode(s) to ensure that the water piping is always at zero potential with respect to the electrical ground. Not sure why you're having such a hard time grasping that concept... -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#42
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote: Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod. Your original statement was: Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system Yep. And that's correct. The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years. 2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system." 250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...." 100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an electrical connection to the earth." If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical connection to the earth. What do you think it means? Can you read? bud-- |
#43
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: In article , Bud-- wrote: Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod. Your original statement was: Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system Yep. And that's correct. The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years. 2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system." 250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...." 100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an electrical connection to the earth." If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical connection to the earth. What do you think it means? Can you read? You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's a fact. It's also a fact that the reason for bonding metal water pipes to the other grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the plumbing cannot ever become live, no matter what might go wrong with the electrical system. Sorry you're having such a hard time understanding. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#44
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote: Doug Miller wrote: In article , Bud-- wrote: Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod. Your original statement was: Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system Yep. And that's correct. The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years. 2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system." 250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...." 100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an electrical connection to the earth." If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical connection to the earth. What do you think it means? Can you read? You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's a fact. Your fact is not consistent with what you said: “The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.” I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system" can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate* grounding electrode." bud-- |
#45
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
In article , Bud-- wrote:
Your fact is not consistent with what you said: “The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.” I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system" can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate* grounding electrode." It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes, not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other* electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically. I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#46
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
Randy wrote:
More explaination... EC&M Beyond the 2005 NEC Changes: Art. 250 Grounding and Bonding By Steven Owen, National Code Seminars http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_beyon...ges/index.html [see link for article] Particularly clear info on Ufer ground in new construction. Thanks Code Quandaries By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stump..._25/index.html [excerpt - see above link for full article] Changes to 250.50 were made to clarify that, where any of the following electrodes "are present" they must be bonded together to create the grounding electrode system. Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)] Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)] Concrete-encased foundation or footer steel [250.52(A)(3)] To me this wording is clearer than "concrete encased electrode", which to me implies that connection to the steel has been made available. Nothing else in the list is named as an "electrode". Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)] Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)] Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)] The intent of the change to 250.50 (wording changed from "if available" to "are present") and the addition of the exception was meant to require the use of concrete-encased foundation or footer steel as part of the building or structure grounding electrode system in new construction (if they are present), since they are considered "present" before they pour concrete. IMHO the code should make this even more explicit. Good requirement though. Randy |
#47
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote: Your fact is not consistent with what you said: �The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.� I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system" can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate* grounding electrode." It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes, not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other* electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically. I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again. "250.50 Grounding Electrode System. If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. 250.52 Grounding Electrodes. (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association Now who is it that needs to educate themselves? -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
#48
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
|
#50
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
In article . net, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: In article . net, wrote: Doug Miller wrote: In article , Bud-- wrote: Your fact is not consistent with what you said: �The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.� I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system" can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate* grounding electrode." It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes, not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other* electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically. I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again. "250.50 Grounding Electrode System. If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. 250.52 Grounding Electrodes. (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted to be the *sole* grounding electrode... Now who is it that needs to educate themselves? Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never disputed that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding electrode system. The whole argument is over *why*. Is your position on why so as to keep it at the same potential as the other electrodes? Yes or no no dodging. I guess you haven't been following the thread too closely, because I've stated that quite explicitly a number of times -- even quoted a portion of the NEC Handbook that says exactly that. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#51
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
I think he is likely trolling.
or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult. bud-- |
#52
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
Bud-- wrote:
I think he is likely trolling. or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult. bud-- Thanks Bud. I try to remember not to wrestle with pigs. You just get filthy dirty and the pig enjoys it. -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
#53
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
most of the discussion is on gas piping outside the house. It would be a good idea to electrically bond the internal gas piping - that is the piping that is downstream of the gas meter - to the electrical ground electrode. The reason being that if the gas piping is energized it can conduct electricity same as water pipe. Typically the gas appliance ground will suffice, but if there is an overvoltage from a transformer surge or lightning, the high impedance of the appliance ground wire doesn't provide a low impedence path to ground. For most CSST, the gas piping MUST be bonded to the electrical ground. So to answer your question:
- Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code. - Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors. - Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its available. - Daisy Chain? You should be able to daisy chain from water pipe if its electrically continuous. On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 12:45:10 PM UTC-4, blueman wrote: When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the ground on the panel. I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that. - Is it required by code? - Is it recommended? - Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe? - Any special considerations? - Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a separate ground back to the panel? Thanks |
#54
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 6:43:17 PM UTC-5, Jeff wrote:
Click Fraud wrote: (Doug Miller) wrote: The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere. And this really is an important thing! My mother in law's dishwasher developed a short to the incoming water pipe. Most of her water piping is PVC, but some of the outside parts are metal, and NOT bonded to ground. We discovered this one day when she went to water the lawn while the dishwasher was running. She reached for the faucet, and ZAP! Fortunately, it was not lethal. Did you find out HOW the dishwasher shorted to the inlet pipe? Seems a bit hard to fathom unless whoever installed the wiring to the dishwaher didn't ground it properly. A plastic bodied water inlet solenoid valve might have insulated the inlet pipe from the rest of the dishwasher, but how did a switched hot lead contact the pipe? Maybe the solenoid valve's coil developed a short to it's case, which was electrically connected to the piping, but not to the rest of the machine. My curious mind wants to know... Jeff -- I think it really depends on the mineral content and salinity of the water as to whether or not it will conduct electricity. o_O [8~{} Uncle Water Monster |
#55
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT), safecsst
wrote: most of the discussion is on gas piping outside the house. It would be a good idea to electrically bond the internal gas piping - that is the piping that is downstream of the gas meter - to the electrical ground electrode. The reason being that if the gas piping is energized it can conduct electricity same as water pipe. Typically the gas appliance ground will suffice, but if there is an overvoltage from a transformer surge or lightning, the high impedance of the appliance ground wire doesn't provide a low impedence path to ground. For most CSST, the gas piping MUST be bonded to the electrical ground. So to answer your question: - Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code. - Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors. - Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its available. - Daisy Chain? You should be able to daisy chain from water pipe if its electrically continuous. On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 12:45:10 PM UTC-4, blueman wrote: When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the ground on the panel. I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that. - Is it required by code? - Is it recommended? - Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe? - Any special considerations? - Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a separate ground back to the panel? Thanks Interior piping is required to be bonded where likely to become energized and this normally happens via the EGC in the equipment served. Water pipe shall be bonded using table 250-66, the same as any other ground electrode. (ie: 4ga for a typical 200a service) |
#56
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm |
#57
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. |
#58
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. |
#59
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system. https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes. |
#60
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system. https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes. CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc resistant) I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe. |
#61
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
bud-- writes:
On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why galvanized is not generally used. The zinc coating on galvy can chip or flake and get introduced into the gas line during installation which may end up clogging the burner orifices or valves. Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may Simple common sense. Don't introduce a spark potential around flammable gasses. |
#62
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system. https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes. CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc resistant) I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe. Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare connections and brazed copper pipe. Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe. Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector who did some research: CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires, manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY. System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires. IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either. Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea. |
#63
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 15:09:18 -0600, bud-- wrote:
On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system. https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes. CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc resistant) I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe. Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare connections and brazed copper pipe. Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe. Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector who did some research: CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires, manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY. System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires. IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either. Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea. Here in Ontario up untill about 10 years ago you could NOT use galvanized for gas. If an inspector found 1 piece of galvanized the gas was locked off untill it was replaced. Guys sometimes got around it by painting the gasline yellow and hiding the galvanize. Galvanized is now allowed. All gas lines must be bonded to the electrical ground and metallic water pipes - and water meters, softeners and water heaters need to have bonding wires across them. |
#64
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 22:01:50 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 15:09:18 -0600, bud-- wrote: On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote: replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground. The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code. I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system. https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes. CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc resistant) I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe. Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare connections and brazed copper pipe. Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe. Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector who did some research: CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires, manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY. System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires. IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either. Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea. Here in Ontario up untill about 10 years ago you could NOT use galvanized for gas. If an inspector found 1 piece of galvanized the gas was locked off untill it was replaced. Guys sometimes got around it by painting the gasline yellow and hiding the galvanize. Galvanized is now allowed. All gas lines must be bonded to the electrical ground and metallic water pipes - and water meters, softeners and water heaters need to have bonding wires across them. I think the galvanized gas pipe is certified differently than water pipe (less loose plating allowed) but it is all I ever see here. "Black iron" quickly becomes "Red iron" here. |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Specific 555 circuit | Electronics | |||
Old electrical wiring to outbuildings | Home Repair | |||
Bond all grounds together? | Home Repair | |||
Ceiling Light Problem - No Switch | Home Repair | |||
Grounding Rod *and* Rebar for service grounds? | Home Repair |