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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Take a look at your gas pipe near the meter. I bet there is a tag or
sticker that states the following. "Under cathodic protection, do not
ground"
blueman wrote:
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad

blueman wrote:
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

In article . com, "Brad" wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article . com, "Brad" wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.


The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?






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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

water pipe today is frequently plastic and as such is no ground........

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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

water pipe today is frequently plastic and as such is no ground........

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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Brad wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.


Wrong, wrong...

Someone already mentioned the words "cathodic protection" with respect
to gas pipes.

What that means is that the gas company has connected a low voltage
source between a metal anode buried in the earth and the gas main and
the pipes leading off it to each user. The purpose is to make the pipes
slightly more electrically negative than ground so that they don't get
eaten away by galvanic corrosion.

The same sort of active protection is sometimes used at boat marinas and
on buried metal structures like guy wire anchors. The systems are also
known by the names "active cathodic protection" or "impressed current
protection".

There's a dielectric (insulated) coupling somewhere near the gas meter
to insulate the gas pipe in your house from the buried main and feeder
so that you don't "short out" that deliberately applied protection
voltage, because the gas pipe in your home probably gets electrically
grounded through some gas appliance it's connected to.

The use of plastic buried gas piping has eliiminated the need for those
kinds of corrosion protection systems on new work.


The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad

blueman wrote:

When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks





--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???


"blueman" wrote in message
...
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?

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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

In article , AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article . com, "Brad"

wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.


The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?


No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
provide a ground for the electrical system.

BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???


"blueman" wrote in message
...
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


I asked that very same question to the people I shoot with at the range -
all of them either are instructors for gas service or perform field repair
services for the gas company. Every single one, all 3 of them, said "DON'T
DO IT!!!!" shortly followed up by "Mind if we come by this week to INSPECT
your service??"

The gas company protects its own piping, if you must use ground wires to
plumbing - use your cold water tap. Better yet save your pennies like I am
and get grounded service. If I keep saving my extra money I might be able
to afford it within the next 20 years - but's that's only if everything else
in my life goes perfectly.


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:22:14 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article , AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article . com, "Brad"

wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.


The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?


No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
provide a ground for the electrical system.


Metal water piping burried in the ground cannot become live.
It is as well grounded as possible. If you connect the house's ground to
it then it is in order to keep the house's ground from being live
compared to the water pipe.



BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?

As a water source? Never.
What has that to do with anything discussed? Nobody is going gto use
ploastic for grounding.
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In article , AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:22:14 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article , AZ Nomad

wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:


In article . com, "Brad"
wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water


piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.

The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?


No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
provide a ground for the electrical system.


Metal water piping burried in the ground cannot become live.
It is as well grounded as possible. If you connect the house's ground to
it then it is in order to keep the house's ground from being live
compared to the water pipe.


This is *not* correct in any respect.

There is no guarantee that the electrical system's grounding electrode, and
the metal water piping, are at the same potential unless they are bonded
together -- despite both of them being buried in the ground. Electrical
resistance in the earth is not constant, and in fact can vary widely even over
short distances.

I repeat: the *sole* reason for bonding metal water piping to the electrical
system's grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the water piping is at the
same potential as the electrical system's ground, so that the water pipes
cannot become live in the event of an electrical fault.

Google is your friend, and educating yourself on this topic should be easy.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

blueman posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks

Hey Jefie is that you? Another question that been asked and answered quite a
few times. Google still broke at your house aye? Take your meds...
--
Tekkie
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Eigenvector posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I asked that very same question to the people I shoot with at the range -
all of them either are instructors for gas service or perform field repair
services for the gas company. Every single one, all 3 of them, said "DON'T
DO IT!!!!" shortly followed up by "Mind if we come by this week to INSPECT
your service??"

The gas company protects its own piping, if you must use ground wires to
plumbing - use your cold water tap. Better yet save your pennies like I am
and get grounded service. If I keep saving my extra money I might be able
to afford it within the next 20 years - but's that's only if everything else
in my life goes perfectly.

Hey, good luck!!!!
--
Tekkie
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

While both pipes are buried and may be made of metal, only the water line
should be used as a ground unless it is fed by a plastic pipe. The gas line
should NEVER be used as a ground, although it should be grounded to the
building ground, because gas supply lines can also be made of plastic, and
even if it is metallic it will have an insulating fitting at the meter to
prevent interference with cathodic corrosion protection of the underground
lines.

If you have a furnace or a powered water heater and grounded wiring, the
connection through this equipment will also ground the gas lines. However, I
believe NEC requires a separate cross connection to ensure proper grounding.

"Brad" wrote in message
ups.com...
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad

blueman wrote:
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks




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I don't bottom post, at least not most of the time, and I try to be
consistent with what I say. :-)

Tekkie® wrote:

Eigenvector posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

...


Hey, good luck!!!!

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Jeff Wisnia writes:
Brad wrote:
Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.


Wrong, wrong...

Someone already mentioned the words "cathodic protection" with respect
to gas pipes.

What that means is that the gas company has connected a low voltage
source between a metal anode buried in the earth and the gas main and
the pipes leading off it to each user. The purpose is to make the
pipes slightly more electrically negative than ground so that they
don't get eaten away by galvanic corrosion.

The same sort of active protection is sometimes used at boat marinas
and on buried metal structures like guy wire anchors. The systems are
also known by the names "active cathodic protection" or "impressed
current protection".

There's a dielectric (insulated) coupling somewhere near the gas meter
to insulate the gas pipe in your house from the buried main and feeder
so that you don't "short out" that deliberately applied protection
voltage, because the gas pipe in your home probably gets electrically
grounded through some gas appliance it's connected to.

The use of plastic buried gas piping has eliiminated the need for
those kinds of corrosion protection systems on new work.


The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad


According to your explanation, then I would think that the gas pipe
SHOULD be grounded. For you say that the in-house pipe is insulated
from the underground piping and hence NEITHER grounded nor "cathodic
protected".

Of course the pipe may end up being indirectly grounded through an
appliance ground, but that seems like all the more reason for
installing a solid, secure, permanent ground connection to the panel
ground. After all, what if the appliance is miswired and the appliance
ground is energized resulting in the pipe being energized (yet
insulated from earth ground), resulting in shock just like with a
water pipe...


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

"EXT" writes:

While both pipes are buried and may be made of metal, only the water line
should be used as a ground unless it is fed by a plastic pipe. The gas line
should NEVER be used as a ground, although it should be grounded to the
building ground, because gas supply lines can also be made of plastic, and
even if it is metallic it will have an insulating fitting at the meter to
prevent interference with cathodic corrosion protection of the underground
lines.

If you have a furnace or a powered water heater and grounded wiring, the
connection through this equipment will also ground the gas lines. However, I
believe NEC requires a separate cross connection to ensure proper grounding.


Yes, but my question remains whether to attach the gas pipe to panel
ground not for the purpose of grounding the panel but for the converse
purpose of ensuring that the metal pipe inside the house never gets energized.
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"John Grabowski" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?


The electrician installed one exterior copper rod sunk in the ground
and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.

Service Entrance
200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
Neurtral-----[----------]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
[ | ] [ ] [ ]
Earth grnd --[--------- ]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
|
Water pipe -----|

Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
main breaker.

Does this make sense and is it legal?
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"John Grabowski" writes:
The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?


Do you need to explicitly bond the hot and cold pipes together using a
copper wire jumper, or is there electrical continuity through the war
heater? (Note my house is all coper pipes)

Also can I bond the gas pipe to the subpanel indirectly by just
jumpering the gas water heater intake pipe to the cold water pipe
entering the hot water heater?

Or is it required to directly bond the gas intake pipe at the meter to
the panel ground using a single wire?

Or is all of this unnecessary since the water heater itself provides a
conducting path bonding the gas pipe system to the water pipe system
(and then back through the water pipe to the panel ground)


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

blueman wrote:
Jeff Wisnia writes:

Brad wrote:

Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.


Wrong, wrong...

Someone already mentioned the words "cathodic protection" with respect
to gas pipes.

What that means is that the gas company has connected a low voltage
source between a metal anode buried in the earth and the gas main and
the pipes leading off it to each user. The purpose is to make the
pipes slightly more electrically negative than ground so that they
don't get eaten away by galvanic corrosion.

The same sort of active protection is sometimes used at boat marinas
and on buried metal structures like guy wire anchors. The systems are
also known by the names "active cathodic protection" or "impressed
current protection".

There's a dielectric (insulated) coupling somewhere near the gas meter
to insulate the gas pipe in your house from the buried main and feeder
so that you don't "short out" that deliberately applied protection
voltage, because the gas pipe in your home probably gets electrically
grounded through some gas appliance it's connected to.

The use of plastic buried gas piping has eliiminated the need for
those kinds of corrosion protection systems on new work.



The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad



According to your explanation, then I would think that the gas pipe
SHOULD be grounded. For you say that the in-house pipe is insulated
from the underground piping and hence NEITHER grounded nor "cathodic
protected".

Of course the pipe may end up being indirectly grounded through an
appliance ground, but that seems like all the more reason for
installing a solid, secure, permanent ground connection to the panel
ground. After all, what if the appliance is miswired and the appliance
ground is energized resulting in the pipe being energized (yet
insulated from earth ground), resulting in shock just like with a
water pipe...



I agree with you on that providing as you say, the grounding is done on
the house side of any insulated coupling.

I was responding the the "buried thus same potential" statement, and
should have made mention of the what you just did, that an "extra"
ground between the panel ground and the in-house gas piping can't hurt,
and may even be required by code.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

There are two issues here. Providing a good ground for your electrical
service *and* grounding metal pipes in the house to prevent them from
becoming energized.

Grounding your electrical service...

In the old days when all pipes were metal, a cold water pipe ground would
do. But then there were problems with rubber grommets on water meters in
basements isolating the inside water piping from the outside water piping,
plastic piping run outside underground, and the ground wires becoming
disconnected or damaged say by a lawnmower or whatever.

So a better grounding solution was found. That is a cold water pipe ground
*and* a separate ground wire run from the electrical service panel to two
ground rods placed 6 ft. apart. (double back-up) Also a ground wire which
electrically connects the water pipe before the water meter to the water
pipe after the water meter.

Grounding metal pipes/objects in the house to prevent them from becoming
energized...

The idea of a 3rd prong on an electrical plug (ground wire) for an
electrical appliance is that the metal case of the appliance is grounded.
Then should there be a loose wire which touches the metal case and a person
walks up and touches the metal case, the person will not be electrocuted. Or
it would trip the breaker also protecting someone from being electrocuted.

Same thing with metal pipes or objects in a house. It is possible that a hot
water pipe (which might be isolated because of rubber grommets) could become
energized. So it is a good idea to run a ground wire from the cold water
pipe to the hot water pipe (in homes with metal piping).

Hot and cold water pipes are very accessible to people. Sinks, washing
machine, etc. Although gas pipes are not readily accessible to people, I
suppose it wouldn't hurt anything to ground this as well. If grounding the
gas pipe, I think running a ground wire from the gas pipe (house side of
meter) to the ground rods or to a cold water pipe ground would be best. I
don't think it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire from the
electric panel to a gas pipe.

Also while grounding things in the house, it is very important to ground
metal objects around sinks and especially the bathroom. Like metal medicine
cabinets which have a built in light fixture. The heat from light bulbs can
cause insulation on wiring to melt away, then the metal cabinet can become
energized. In a bathroom you are in bare feet and might be turning on the
water while opening the medicine cabinet with the other hand - zap!

What can go wrong...

I have seen ground wires from main electrical service panels become
disconnected. There could be a situation where the ground wire(s) from the
main service panel become disconnected but someone ran a ground wire from
there to something else like a gas pipe. Then an appliance could malfunction
and this in turn could cause the gas pipe to become energized (if it was not
inadvertently grounded via an appliance). So for this reason it is *not* a
good idea to ground things such as this to a connection in the electrical
panel, but to ground them directly to a ground such as cold water pipe
and/or the ground rods.

Also you can get different "ground potentials". The ground at point A may be
slightly different electrically from the ground at point B. For this reason,
it is a good idea to ground everything at one point. That is run all ground
wires or bond various grounds to say the ground rods or a main grounding
point.


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blueman wrote:

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?


No.

- Is it recommended?


No, each utility does its own thing. Let the phone, and cable companies
run their own grounds, to the unified ground of the electrical system.

Grounding is much less a concern to the gas company with their
underground architecture than it is to the electric and phone companies
with their aerial ones.

- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?


Yes, same gauge wire for all your grounding runs.

- Any special considerations?


The galvanic corrosion problem mentioned refers mixing the types of
materials on the pipes and wires, don't use a copper grounding clamp on
an iron pipe, and vice versa.

- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?


A gas appliance, such as a furnace or range, that has an electrical
hookup, will ground the gas line(s) that are connected to it, so you
don't need to worry about it.

You need to "jump" over anything that is removable, such as the water
meter, and the water heater, so that the plumbing is always grounded
even if something is removed.

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"blueman" wrote in message
...
"John Grabowski" writes:
The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that

all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by

using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond

the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would

be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water

heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded.

Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector

would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done

correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground

rod?

Do you need to explicitly bond the hot and cold pipes together using a
copper wire jumper, or is there electrical continuity through the war
heater? (Note my house is all copper pipes)



Usually there is continuity through the water heater, however it is not an
approved connection. You must use a #6 copper or #4 aluminum wire with
approved water pipe ground clamps.



Also can I bond the gas pipe to the subpanel indirectly by just
jumpering the gas water heater intake pipe to the cold water pipe
entering the hot water heater?



That is how I do it. I usually run one continuous piece of bare wire
through each clamp on the hot water pipe, cold water pipe, and the gas pipe
on the water heater. When the inspector comes he goes straight for the water
heater and sees the bonding. If you have a hot water heating system and/or
a well, those pipes need to be bonded with the others as well. Try and keep
the clamps back far enough so that they will not interfere and do not have
to be removed to change out the water heater.



Or is it required to directly bond the gas intake pipe at the meter to
the panel ground using a single wire?

Or is all of this unnecessary since the water heater itself provides a
conducting path bonding the gas pipe system to the water pipe system
(and then back through the water pipe to the panel ground)



In New Jersey the above bonding is required. Check with your local
electrical inspector to learn what is required in your area.

There should also be a jumper wire from one side of your water meter to the
other.

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"blueman" wrote in message
...
"John Grabowski" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that

all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by

using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond

the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would

be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water

heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded.

Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector

would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done

correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground

rod?

The electrician installed one exterior copper rod sunk in the ground
and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.

Service Entrance
200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
Neurtral-----[----------]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
[ | ] [ ] [ ]
Earth grnd --[--------- ]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
|
Water pipe -----|

Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
main breaker.

Does this make sense and is it legal?



I think that the water pipe grounding conductor should have been connected
at the same point as the ground rod conductor at the main breaker in order
to be code compliant.

Are the neutral conductor and the water pipe grounding conductor terminated
separately so as to be isolated electrically from each other in the 200 amp
subpanel?



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John Grabowski wrote:
In New Jersey the above bonding is required. Check with your local

electrical inspector to learn what is required in your area.

There should also be a jumper wire from one side of your water meter to the
other.



The advice to check with the local inspector (AHJ "Authority Having
Jurisdiction" in electrical-speak) is proably the best advice.

For those that want to read about it, EC&M (Electrical Contracting and
Maintenance Magazine) has this article -

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_..._20/index.html

See also:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_..._17/index.html


Randy

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John Grabowski wrote:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?

ive found most inspectorsdo not enforce this code here and some are
requiring only one ground rod we still use two but ground rods are
nearly worthless,certain conditions dont matter how many you drive down
you still dont get the 25 or less ohms to ground

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"John Grabowski" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
The electrician installed one exterior copper rod sunk in the ground
and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.

Service Entrance
200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
Neurtral-----[----------]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
[ | ] [ ] [ ]
Earth grnd --[--------- ]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
|
Water pipe -----|

Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
main breaker.

Does this make sense and is it legal?



I think that the water pipe grounding conductor should have been connected
at the same point as the ground rod conductor at the main breaker in order
to be code compliant.


Are the neutral conductor and the water pipe grounding conductor terminated
separately so as to be isolated electrically from each other in the 200 amp
subpanel?


Yes. That is what I was trying to show in the picture.
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:45:10 GMT, blueman wrote:

When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks




Only qualified allow qualified personnel work on electrical systems,
and follow all construction codes.


IMHO:

1. Required per 2005 NEC 250.104(B)
2. Required.
3. Per 250.104(b) use 250.122 as source of size.
4. Nothing special, but ensure you follow the NEC and local codes.
Give your local code enforcement inspector a call.
5. 250.104(B) tells you the options you have to bonding the metal
piping to. One includes bonding to the grouding electrode. If your
water pipe meets the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), then it is a
grounding electrode. So a water inlet piping can be used per code.

Now all this is using the NEC, and guessing about your local setup.
Only a qualified person working on site can help you. So this is not
a how-to, but a starting point for planning your operation. Research
with your local inspector, or AHJ.

later,

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com



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In article , Bud-- wrote:

The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
used as a grounding electrode.


Note the word "a". Not "the".

The current code REQUIRES that water
service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
included as a grounding electrode.


And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.

Because this pipe may in the future
be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
usually ground rod(s).


You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.

You're also wrong about the reason.

"Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes
that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National
Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]

I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


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Doug Miller wrote:
In article , AZ Nomad wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:



In article . com, "Brad"


wrote:

Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.


The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?



No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
provide a ground for the electrical system.

BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?


The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
used as a grounding electrode. The current code REQUIRES that water
service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
included as a grounding electrode. Because this pipe may in the future
be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
usually ground rod(s). For new construction use a Ufer ground/concrete
encased electrode. These electrodes are connected together to make a
grounding electrode system. The earthing resistance of a metal municipal
water system is lower than anything you can provide in a house.

bud--
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John Grabowski wrote:

"blueman" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" writes:

"blueman" wrote in message
...

When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks

The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that


all

interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by


using

#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond


the

hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would


be

very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water


heater.

Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded.


Some

gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector


would

have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done


correctly.

Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground


rod?

The electrician installed one exterior copper rod sunk in the ground
and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.

Service Entrance
200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
Neurtral-----[----------]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
[ | ] [ ] [ ]
Earth grnd --[--------- ]----------[-----------]---------[-----------]
|
Water pipe -----|

Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
main breaker.

Does this make sense and is it legal?




I think that the water pipe grounding conductor should have been connected
at the same point as the ground rod conductor at the main breaker in order
to be code compliant.


I agree. The NEC requires the water service pipe (if 10 ft or more
length underground) to be connected to the ground/neutral at the service
disconnect, along with the ground rod. Also connecting it to the ground
bar in the subpanel is OK.

bud--

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Jeff Wisnia writes:
blueman wrote:
Jeff Wisnia writes:

Brad wrote:

Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
they are both are buried.

Wrong, wrong...

Someone already mentioned the words "cathodic protection" with respect
to gas pipes.

What that means is that the gas company has connected a low voltage
source between a metal anode buried in the earth and the gas main and
the pipes leading off it to each user. The purpose is to make the
pipes slightly more electrically negative than ground so that they
don't get eaten away by galvanic corrosion.

The same sort of active protection is sometimes used at boat marinas
and on buried metal structures like guy wire anchors. The systems are
also known by the names "active cathodic protection" or "impressed
current protection".

There's a dielectric (insulated) coupling somewhere near the gas meter
to insulate the gas pipe in your house from the buried main and feeder
so that you don't "short out" that deliberately applied protection
voltage, because the gas pipe in your home probably gets electrically
grounded through some gas appliance it's connected to.

The use of plastic buried gas piping has eliiminated the need for
those kinds of corrosion protection systems on new work.



The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad

According to your explanation, then I would think that the gas pipe
SHOULD be grounded. For you say that the in-house pipe is insulated
from the underground piping and hence NEITHER grounded nor "cathodic
protected".
Of course the pipe may end up being indirectly grounded through an
appliance ground, but that seems like all the more reason for
installing a solid, secure, permanent ground connection to the panel
ground. After all, what if the appliance is miswired and the appliance
ground is energized resulting in the pipe being energized (yet
insulated from earth ground), resulting in shock just like with a
water pipe...


I agree with you on that providing as you say, the grounding is done
on the house side of any insulated coupling.

I was responding the the "buried thus same potential" statement, and
should have made mention of the what you just did, that an "extra"
ground between the panel ground and the in-house gas piping can't
hurt, and may even be required by code.

Jeff


Well, I called our local gas company (Keyspan) and after a few
handoffs, I was told that they do NOT recommend grounding the gas
pipe. In fact, they say that if they see such a bridging on a service
call, they typically remove it.

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In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Bud--

wrote:


The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
used as a grounding electrode.



Note the word "a". Not "the".


So what? Metal water service pipes (10 ft or longer) are REQUIRED by
250.50 to be a part of the grounding electrode system. This basic
requirement has been in the code for a very long time.


"A part", yes -- but it is not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode.

Ground rods are
not required to be installed.


Technically true, but misleading. You may use a ground rod, a ground plate, a
buried wire ring, or the metal framing of the building, as the *only*
grounding electrode. But not a water pipe.


The current code REQUIRES that water
service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
included as a grounding electrode.



And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.


So what? See reason.


Because this pipe may in the future
be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
usually ground rod(s).



You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.


You have things backwards. With a water pipe a "supplemental" electrode
is required - 250.53-D-2. A "supplemental" ground rod is a strange name
for the "primary" grounding electrode.


The Code permits using a ground rod, alone, as the grounding electrode. It
prohibits using a water pipe, alone, as the grounding electrode. Quibbling
over which is "primary" and which is "supplemental" doesn't change those
facts.

Grounding rods are 'good' if their resistance to earth is 25 ohms or
less (or use 2 rods and it doesn't matter). Municipal water pipe earth
resistance is typically under 3 ohms.


Irrelevant. The Code does not permit a water pipe to be the only grounding
electrode.

Again:

"Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes
that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National
Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]


I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.

Your original statement was:

Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system


The underground water service pipe is REQUIRED by the 250.50 to be
included as a grounding electrode. It has been thus fire was invented.
Bonding requirements under 250.104-A (not 250.80) have been already met
under the more stringent 250.50. The code clearly requires the water
service pipe to be a grounding electrode. The water pipe clearly
provides “A GROUND FOR THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.”

If 250.104 was removed, the connection would still have to be made. If
the water service pipe was plastic 250.104 would prevail.

Both Brad and AZNomad said the water pipe was a grounding electode. So
far no one agrees with you.

You said:
The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.


250.53-D-2. requires a "supplemental" electrode - your ground rod.
The water pipe is clearly superior based on the size of grounding
electrode conductor required for each electrode and by typical earth
resistances.


You said:
You're also wrong about the reason

The NFPA Handbook said the rod was there because the water pipe might be
replaced in the future with plastic with the rod as a "supplementary"
fall-back.


I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.

bud--
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