I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.

I have a 16KW Generac Generator (their new model 5244) that it claims
is "Central Air Certified" for a 5 ton unit. It did indeed start the
unit, but it seemed to struggle a bit (lights dimmed quite a bit, took
a couple of tries to get it started).

I have seen some info that a Kickstart hardstart device will allow for
better starting when voltage is low and is useful when used with a
generator.

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:
27L322
80uf 440VAC
+06 .06% 50/60Hz
Protected P969
T10000AFC DIELEKTROL VI 0240
D137452P39
It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

Not sure if this is a start capacitor or a run capacitor. The only
other thing I found wired in (other than the contactor) is a gray
cylinder slightly bigger than a D cell battery.

I intend to have a HVAC contractor come out and install the Kickstart
device if it is of benefit, but I would rather not pay for the service
charge (I live in a rural area) for someone to ome out and tell me it
will do no good. Any suggestions as to what I have and whether or not
the Kickstart will help? I'm kind of out of my element here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Brad

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
snippage

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:

snippage

It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

snippage


Brad


Brad, I think your AC has the dildo option. There was another thread here a
week or so ago about these kind of AC units.

It is probably best for you not to **** with it any further.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


That would be.....wrong.


I have a 16KW Generac Generator (their new model 5244) that it claims
is "Central Air Certified" for a 5 ton unit. It did indeed start the
unit, but it seemed to struggle a bit (lights dimmed quite a bit, took
a couple of tries to get it started).

I have seen some info that a Kickstart hardstart device will allow for
better starting when voltage is low and is useful when used with a
generator.

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:
27L322
80uf 440VAC
+06 .06% 50/60Hz
Protected P969
T10000AFC DIELEKTROL VI 0240
D137452P39
It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

Not sure if this is a start capacitor or a run capacitor. The only
other thing I found wired in (other than the contactor) is a gray
cylinder slightly bigger than a D cell battery.

I intend to have a HVAC contractor come out and install the Kickstart
device if it is of benefit, but I would rather not pay for the service
charge (I live in a rural area) for someone to ome out and tell me it
will do no good. Any suggestions as to what I have and whether or not
the Kickstart will help? I'm kind of out of my element here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Brad

wrote:
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.

A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...
wrote:
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.

Incorrect. The reason they arent normaly installed is stricly cost. The
factory trys to design a system which will allow equalization of pressures
so they don't require a hard start kit to overcome starting against a high
head. A cap tube, FCCV valve, a bleed txv will all allow equalization of
pressures between the low and high side, that coupled with a time delay
thermostat will allow the factory to save money in material and labor.


A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.

Incorrect again. Its once again cost or when needed.

On my home I have them installed, but I can't justify putting $150 on a
customers unit that isn't having problems and they have the required
criteria mentioned above .

I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich

Hi Brad,

I read somewhere on the internet what you want to do is to have 1.25
times the AMPACITY of the HVAC unit. .

http://www.mbinet.org/Magazine/comfort07_02.aspx

Personally, I would not feel comfortable with the generator sized even that
close. Inrush amps for starting can be up to ten times the normal amount of
power required to start an air conditioner. I'm not saying to get a
generator that is ten times larger than what the amperage labled on the AC,
but I would at least consider a unit at least 1.5 bigger.

Also, I would make sure the unit has the proper start components, NOT THE
ELECTRONIC hard start kits but a REAL relay and a REAL start capacitor that
is specific to this unit. To be sure get the one from the factory who made
air conditioner. I would also make sure you have a time delay start
component, your thermostat may have that built in.

Rich

PS, the start relay is a black plastic and probably has a small bleed
resistor across the terminals.

Geoman wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...

wrote:

I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.


Incorrect. The reason they arent normaly installed is stricly cost. The
factory trys to design a system which will allow equalization of pressures
so they don't require a hard start kit to overcome starting against a high
head. A cap tube, FCCV valve, a bleed txv will all allow equalization of
pressures between the low and high side, that coupled with a time delay
thermostat will allow the factory to save money in material and labor.


A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.


Incorrect again. Its once again cost or when needed.

On my home I have them installed, but I can't justify putting $150 on a
customers unit that isn't having problems and they have the required
criteria mentioned above .

I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich



Then we are talking about two VERY different things.

I had a 1982 vintage unit on this house that was having some problems
with Hot starts. We spent a night in a motel as a result. When the
contractor came, he installed a second larger capacitor to give the
motor additional inrush current when it started up.

This worked for a while, but when 4 adults were present in the
summertime, the unit could not dissipate the heat in the house, so we
HAD to escape to a mall to be comfy if son and family visited. that
triggered, eventually, a complete replacement for a 12 SEER unit at $7K
for AC and furnace.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.

I have a 16KW Generac Generator (their new model 5244) that it claims
is "Central Air Certified" for a 5 ton unit. It did indeed start the
unit, but it seemed to struggle a bit (lights dimmed quite a bit, took
a couple of tries to get it started).

I have seen some info that a Kickstart hardstart device will allow for
better starting when voltage is low and is useful when used with a
generator.

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:
27L322
80uf 440VAC
+06 .06% 50/60Hz
Protected P969
T10000AFC DIELEKTROL VI 0240
D137452P39
It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

This capacitor is running capacitor
would hard start kit help yes it would, howmuch?
salid state start kits are very esey to use, it have two wires
and it gets hookup accros the running cap.
in addition if you can get good circutry tech.
you can add small line cotactor for condenser fan
and add time delay on to compressors line contactor
permiting condenser fan to get up to full RPM
beforr compressor cuts in this would gave you
tremondus advantage on start up, condenser fan motors
can drow considarable amount of power until
they get up to rated RPM.
good luck from Dido


Not sure if this is a start capacitor or a run capacitor. The only
other thing I found wired in (other than the contactor) is a gray
cylinder slightly bigger than a D cell battery.

I intend to have a HVAC contractor come out and install the Kickstart
device if it is of benefit, but I would rather not pay for the service
charge (I live in a rural area) for someone to ome out and tell me it
will do no good. Any suggestions as to what I have and whether or not
the Kickstart will help? I'm kind of out of my element here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Brad

On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:35:05 GMT, Robert Gammon
wrote:

wrote:
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.

A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.

Actually this is not correct. hard starts are installed on the better
models and especially heat pumps due to their high pressure starts in
winter.

wrote:
On Fri, 26 May 2006 11:35:05 GMT, Robert Gammon
wrote:


wrote:

I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.

A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.


Actually this is not correct. hard starts are installed on the better
models and especially heat pumps due to their high pressure starts in
winter.



We're talking again, about TWO very different problems.

1. Pressure differentials across the compressor that make a difficult
start. This can occur on units of any size, of any age. We can agree
that some mfg's on some models do provide for a hard start condition
related to pressure differentials across the compressor.

2. Older compressors will have higher internal friction due to wear.
Pressures in the system are nominal, exactly what they should be. These
compressors may not be scroll compressors although scroll is currently a
leading compressor design. A HOT start, i.e. a restart of the
compressor after an extended run time, before the compressor has time to
cool down, may result in a failed compressor start. Adding an extra
start capacitor ONLY, will be a stop gap measure that will allow the
system to run for a few more years before replacement is required. It
is arguable that this is also a hard start due to a pressure
differential, however the solution is far simpler and less expensive
than the hard start kit that some are discussing here.

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...
Geoman wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...

wrote:

I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.


Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.


Incorrect. The reason they arent normaly installed is stricly cost. The
factory trys to design a system which will allow equalization of
pressures so they don't require a hard start kit to overcome starting
against a high head. A cap tube, FCCV valve, a bleed txv will all allow
equalization of pressures between the low and high side, that coupled
with a time delay thermostat will allow the factory to save money in
material and labor.


A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.


Incorrect again. Its once again cost or when needed.

On my home I have them installed, but I can't justify putting $150 on a
customers unit that isn't having problems and they have the required
criteria mentioned above .

I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich


Then we are talking about two VERY different things.

I had a 1982 vintage unit on this house that was having some problems with
Hot starts. We spent a night in a motel as a result. When the contractor
came, he installed a second larger capacitor to give the motor additional
inrush current when it started up.
This worked for a while, but when 4 adults were present in the summertime,
the unit could not dissipate the heat in the house, so we HAD to escape to
a mall to be comfy if son and family visited. that triggered, eventually,
a complete replacement for a 12 SEER unit at $7K for AC and furnace.

We are not talking about two different things. You said they are NEVER
installed unless there are problems, everyone here responded saying that you
are mistaken. I went further to explain why they are not traditionally
installed at the factory, which is cost. The factories will put them on some
models, but not all.

Make no mistake about this, every, and I mean EVERY compressor that is
single phase WILL work better and possibly last longer with a properly sized
start capacitor and start relay. But to say they are only put on when there
are problems is totally incorrect.

Also, your statement about the unit not cooling with four adults is possibly
a different subject. If the unit started and ran and the unit would not
keep up then it wasn't a hard start problem, it was most likely due to a
failing compressor or the charge was off and your compressor was cooking due
to no refrigerant cooling.

Rich

"DIDO" wrote in message news:HVHdg.6$4I3.4@trndny08...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.

I have a 16KW Generac Generator (their new model 5244) that it claims
is "Central Air Certified" for a 5 ton unit. It did indeed start the
unit, but it seemed to struggle a bit (lights dimmed quite a bit, took
a couple of tries to get it started).

I have seen some info that a Kickstart hardstart device will allow for
better starting when voltage is low and is useful when used with a
generator.

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:
27L322
80uf 440VAC
+06 .06% 50/60Hz
Protected P969
T10000AFC DIELEKTROL VI 0240
D137452P39
It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

This capacitor is running capacitor
would hard start kit help yes it would, howmuch?
salid state start kits are very esey to use, it have two wires
and it gets hookup accros the running cap.
in addition if you can get good circutry tech.
you can add small line cotactor for condenser fan
and add time delay on to compressors line contactor
permiting condenser fan to get up to full RPM
beforr compressor cuts in this would gave you
tremondus advantage on start up, condenser fan motors
can drow considarable amount of power until
they get up to rated RPM.
good luck from Dido


Not sure if this is a start capacitor or a run capacitor. The only
other thing I found wired in (other than the contactor) is a gray
cylinder slightly bigger than a D cell battery.

I intend to have a HVAC contractor come out and install the Kickstart
device if it is of benefit, but I would rather not pay for the service
charge (I live in a rural area) for someone to ome out and tell me it
will do no good. Any suggestions as to what I have and whether or not
the Kickstart will help? I'm kind of out of my element here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Brad

"Geoman" wrote in message
...



I have a hunch that Turtle is in Orleans working his butt off and raking in
the jack.

Far to busy to spend any time with us.

I do miss his style.


Colbyt

Geoman wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...

Geoman wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
. com...


wrote:


I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.



Hard start kits are NEVER installed on a new AC. The purpose of such a
kit is to give extra energy to a compressor that is aging, has more
internal friction.


Incorrect. The reason they arent normaly installed is stricly cost. The
factory trys to design a system which will allow equalization of
pressures so they don't require a hard start kit to overcome starting
against a high head. A cap tube, FCCV valve, a bleed txv will all allow
equalization of pressures between the low and high side, that coupled
with a time delay thermostat will allow the factory to save money in
material and labor.



A service call by a reputable HVAC contractor will install such a
capacitor ONLY when it is needed, ie. an old unit that fails to start
sometimes, particularly when the unit is hot and you attempt a restart
within an hour after it shuts down.


Incorrect again. Its once again cost or when needed.

On my home I have them installed, but I can't justify putting $150 on a
customers unit that isn't having problems and they have the required
criteria mentioned above .

I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich



Then we are talking about two VERY different things.

I had a 1982 vintage unit on this house that was having some problems with
Hot starts. We spent a night in a motel as a result. When the contractor
came, he installed a second larger capacitor to give the motor additional
inrush current when it started up.
This worked for a while, but when 4 adults were present in the summertime,
the unit could not dissipate the heat in the house, so we HAD to escape to
a mall to be comfy if son and family visited. that triggered, eventually,
a complete replacement for a 12 SEER unit at $7K for AC and furnace.


We are not talking about two different things. You said they are NEVER
installed unless there are problems, everyone here responded saying that you
are mistaken. I went further to explain why they are not traditionally
installed at the factory, which is cost. The factories will put them on some
models, but not all.

Make no mistake about this, every, and I mean EVERY compressor that is
single phase WILL work better and possibly last longer with a properly sized
start capacitor and start relay. But to say they are only put on when there
are problems is totally incorrect.

Also, your statement about the unit not cooling with four adults is possibly
a different subject. If the unit started and ran and the unit would not
keep up then it wasn't a hard start problem, it was most likely due to a
failing compressor or the charge was off and your compressor was cooking due
to no refrigerant cooling.

Rich


The coolant level was checked and was in spec. Pressures were checked
and in spec. Start capacitor was checked and was within spec.

Compressor had proper start relay and start capacitor. It worked fine
for 18 years. It was reaching END OF LIFE. Compressor got hot started
and failed to start. Sevice tech added a extra amount of start
capacitance and the unti continued to run, abeit with increasingly poor
results and high expense (at the end, the monthly electricity bill more
than DOUBLED over usual summertime values)

Is no use talking to selfish ignorant morons
I am talking to those that have brain of elephant and mine of a slug
you know who you are, but if you think that you will stop me from
posting you are not born yet
sweet dreams from Dido


wrote in message
oups.com...
I have an American Standard Allegiance 12 5 ton Air Conditioner. The
model number is 2A7A2060A1000AA and the date of manufacture is 01/2003.

I am trying to determine if it has a hardstart kit on it or not. Some
people have told me that all ACs newer than 5 years come pre-installed
with a hard start device.

I have a 16KW Generac Generator (their new model 5244) that it claims
is "Central Air Certified" for a 5 ton unit. It did indeed start the
unit, but it seemed to struggle a bit (lights dimmed quite a bit, took
a couple of tries to get it started).

I have seen some info that a Kickstart hardstart device will allow for
better starting when voltage is low and is useful when used with a
generator.

I open the outside unit and found the following:
A round silver GE Capacitor with the following info:
27L322
80uf 440VAC
+06 .06% 50/60Hz
Protected P969
T10000AFC DIELEKTROL VI 0240
D137452P39
It is about 6" long 2.5" in diameter

Not sure if this is a start capacitor or a run capacitor. The only
other thing I found wired in (other than the contactor) is a gray
cylinder slightly bigger than a D cell battery.

I intend to have a HVAC contractor come out and install the Kickstart
device if it is of benefit, but I would rather not pay for the service
charge (I live in a rural area) for someone to ome out and tell me it
will do no good. Any suggestions as to what I have and whether or not
the Kickstart will help? I'm kind of out of my element here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Brad

I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich



That was my impression as well. Help us out here, Steve?

Jake

"Jake" wrote in message
...


I was surprised that Noons systems come with them. I was under the
impression that a scroll unit equalizes when its turned off.

Rich

That was my impression as well. Help us out here, Steve?

Jake

All 6 of the systems I have installed in the last 3 weeks, including the one
today *ALL* came from the factory with scroll compressors and hard start
kits installed along with factory installed filter/driers, low and high
pressure switches, mufflers, 5 minute delay on break timers, and a bunch of
other stuff. The model numbers on the heat pumps were (1)RPNK-024JAZ,
(3)RPNK-036JAZ, (1)RPNK-048JAZ, and on the A/C condenser was (1)RAND-048JAZ.
I have 2 more systems lined up for next week.

FWIW, Scrolls don't equalize pressures. Most manufacturers install hard
start kits on heat pumps and a/c condensers that have a very high
probability of being used on a coil that has an expansion valve on it.

FWIW, Scrolls don't equalize pressures. Most manufacturers install hard
start kits on heat pumps and a/c condensers that have a very high
probability of being used on a coil that has an expansion valve on it.



Steve,

From Copeland's website technote on "Compliant Scrolls"...

Single Phase Starting Characteristics:

No start assist devices are ever required, even if a system uses
non-bleed expansion valves. Due to the inherent design of the Compliant
Scroll, the internal compression components always start unloaded even
if the system pressures are not balanced.

I don't doubt that the systems you installed had hard starts...

I just want to know why?

Why wouldn't they just employ bleed TXV's and the standard anti-restart
relay?

Just curious...

Jake

"DIDO" wrote in message
news:tNNdg.38$4I3.28@trndny08...
Is no use talking to selfish ignorant morons
I am talking to those that have brain of elephant and mine of a slug
you know who you are, but if you think that you will stop me from
posting you are not born yet
sweet dreams from Dido


Here's a clue :

Nobody gives a flying **** but perhaps you...

....AND...

*IF* you go off a posting with some ****ing bull**** moronic crap then
whatever results you get back in return is yours alone to deal with....

Curious, has anyone mentioned "Jew haters" lately ???

--

SVL

OK, I appreciate all the responses. So what I am seeing on my unit is
a running capacitor, right? Does anyone have experience with a
Kickstart brand hard start kit, specifically?

Will this ease the load on my generator in any way? Again, this
generator will start the 5 ton AC, but it seems to struggle, as stated
in the initial post. ANY help in starting the AC will be worth it. I
would consider the generator I have as being barely able to start the
AC. It just needs a little help.

I wish I would have bought a larger generator to power this, but at
this point I have what I have and just would like to make the starting
easier. Suggestions?

Here is a link to the specific product I am looking at. Is this all
marketing BS?

http://www.kickstartoem.com/faqs/contractors.html

Thanks again for all the responses!

Brad

wrote in message
oups.com...
OK, I appreciate all the responses. So what I am seeing on my unit is
a running capacitor, right? Does anyone have experience with a
Kickstart brand hard start kit, specifically?

Will this ease the load on my generator in any way? Again, this
generator will start the 5 ton AC, but it seems to struggle, as stated
in the initial post. ANY help in starting the AC will be worth it. I
would consider the generator I have as being barely able to start the
AC. It just needs a little help.

I wish I would have bought a larger generator to power this, but at
this point I have what I have and just would like to make the starting
easier. Suggestions?

Here is a link to the specific product I am looking at. Is this all
marketing BS?

http://www.kickstartoem.com/faqs/contractors.html

Thanks again for all the responses!

Brad

Brad, I personally do not like these units except for emergencies.

If it were my A/C, I would contact an hvac company that sold your brand and
have them order the correct Start Capacitor with a bleed resistor on it and
Start relay. Start capacitors are just that, they increase the capacity to
start the compressor with much less stress. The electronic ones do work, but
I feel that the OEM type relays and start capacitors are much better.

Not knowing about your system or your generator, I would look into the
potential of your generator not producing the correct hertx or cycles per
minute. If your generator boggs down I think (Jake and others should jump in
here) your RPM may change/slow down and the hertz may also change.

60 Hertz is critical. I believe if your generator droops to 57 hertz or
lower you can really cause problems. I suppose the newer generators will
have electronic checks on them, but once again, others here should jump in
who may know more about generators, I don't even own one myself.

Rich

"Jake" wrote in message
...

FWIW, Scrolls don't equalize pressures. Most manufacturers install hard
start kits on heat pumps and a/c condensers that have a very high
probability of being used on a coil that has an expansion valve on it.

Steve,

From Copeland's website technote on "Compliant Scrolls"...

Single Phase Starting Characteristics:

No start assist devices are ever required, even if a system uses non-bleed
expansion valves. Due to the inherent design of the Compliant Scroll, the
internal compression components always start unloaded even if the system
pressures are not balanced.

I don't doubt that the systems you installed had hard starts...

I just want to know why?

Why wouldn't they just employ bleed TXV's and the standard anti-restart
relay?

Just curious...

Jake

Jake,
You'll have to ask the engineers that design them.... I get them like that
out of the box.

Noon-Air wrote:
"Jake" wrote in message
...

FWIW, Scrolls don't equalize pressures. Most manufacturers install hard
start kits on heat pumps and a/c condensers that have a very high
probability of being used on a coil that has an expansion valve on it.

Steve,

From Copeland's website technote on "Compliant Scrolls"...

Single Phase Starting Characteristics:

No start assist devices are ever required, even if a system uses non-bleed
expansion valves. Due to the inherent design of the Compliant Scroll, the
internal compression components always start unloaded even if the system
pressures are not balanced.

I don't doubt that the systems you installed had hard starts...

I just want to know why?

Why wouldn't they just employ bleed TXV's and the standard anti-restart
relay?

Just curious...

Jake


Jake,
You'll have to ask the engineers that design them.... I get them like that
out of the box.



And the KickStart devices quoted earlier are a combination of a
capacitor and a relay. For a system that already has a start capacitor
and relay, you only need to add a capacitor in parallel with the
existing start capacitor.

Per the Kick Start web site, their product does power factor correction
at startup (makes sense, big coil in the motor, inductive load, offset
by large capacitor). They quote power factor at start of as low as 0.50
and with a Kick Start device, as high as .98

For a system that is running on a generator, 0.50 PF vs 0.96 PF is a BIG
difference, and fixing this could make a BIG difference in BOTH
generator operation (lights do not dim) and A/C start.

"ftwhd" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 May 2006 22:07:50 -0700, "Harry Cox"
wrote:


"DIDO" wrote in message
news:tNNdg.38$4I3.28@trndny08...
Is no use talking to selfish ignorant morons
I am talking to those that have brain of elephant and mine of a slug
you know who you are, but if you think that you will stop me from
posting you are not born yet
sweet dreams from Dido


Here's a clue :

Nobody gives a flying **** but perhaps you...

Your post seems to indicate otherwise.

Glad to see you still are obsessed with everyone....

"Geoman" wrote in message
...


Hi Brad,

I read somewhere on the internet what you want to do is to have 1.25
times the AMPACITY of the HVAC unit. .

http://www.mbinet.org/Magazine/comfort07_02.aspx

Personally, I would not feel comfortable with the generator sized even
that close. Inrush amps for starting can be up to ten times the normal
amount of power required to start an air conditioner. I'm not saying to
get a generator that is ten times larger than what the amperage labled on
the AC, but I would at least consider a unit at least 1.5 bigger.

Also, I would make sure the unit has the proper start components, NOT THE
ELECTRONIC hard start kits but a REAL relay and a REAL start capacitor
that is specific to this unit. To be sure get the one from the factory who
made air conditioner. I would also make sure you have a time delay start
component, your thermostat may have that built in.

Rich

PS, the start relay is a black plastic and probably has a small bleed
resistor across the terminals.



It makes me nervous to run a/c on a generator unless it is a commercial
facility installation that can run elevators and life safety equipment,
backed up by some mechanical engineer's liability insurance and license.

Too much potential for equipment damage from low voltage, phase conditions,
incorrect hertz, etc. Particularly with any electronic control circuits.

You'll be stressing the windings of the compressor and possibly frying those
pesky *non-PCB* components... ;-)

"Murdentech" j. murden@i nsightbb .com wrote in message
...

"Geoman" wrote in message
...


Hi Brad,

I read somewhere on the internet what you want to do is to have 1.25
times the AMPACITY of the HVAC unit. .

http://www.mbinet.org/Magazine/comfort07_02.aspx

Personally, I would not feel comfortable with the generator sized even
that close. Inrush amps for starting can be up to ten times the normal
amount of power required to start an air conditioner. I'm not saying to
get a generator that is ten times larger than what the amperage labled on
the AC, but I would at least consider a unit at least 1.5 bigger.

Also, I would make sure the unit has the proper start components, NOT THE
ELECTRONIC hard start kits but a REAL relay and a REAL start capacitor
that is specific to this unit. To be sure get the one from the factory
who made air conditioner. I would also make sure you have a time delay
start component, your thermostat may have that built in.

Rich

PS, the start relay is a black plastic and probably has a small bleed
resistor across the terminals.



It makes me nervous to run a/c on a generator unless it is a commercial
facility installation that can run elevators and life safety equipment,
backed up by some mechanical engineer's liability insurance and license.

Too much potential for equipment damage from low voltage, phase
conditions, incorrect hertz, etc. Particularly with any electronic
control circuits.

You'll be stressing the windings of the compressor and possibly frying
those pesky *non-PCB* components... ;-)

I mentioned on another post about the issue concerning hertz stability. That
is one of my biggest concerns.

I agree with your post completely.

Rich