"Pop" wrote in message
news:HrwFf.1418$r53.416@trndny03...
...
:
: Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and
particularly
: not any better than anyone you deride here.

Well, I dunno 'bout that: if you're included, then he's
certainly better than you, that's a given. Fuchsy is a
closed
mind with a large bowel, I'm afraid. Nuff said

well ...maybe Fuchsie is a closed mind etc... or maybe he
is a romex wiring house type electrician... there are about
200 of those for everyone doing industrial contols and
automation (where soldering stranded ends is pervasively
common).

So...we get on the ng, this 200 to 1 ratio of
insightability. Im sure Roy will respond appropriately to my
posts on the topic... gentleman that he is, and realizing that
the way to become an idiot is to defend ones current
position...

As a consulting engineer the first thing I tell my clients
is that they know more about their situation in many aspects
than I do, and that I will be learning from them and
formatting much or most of my recommendations based on what
they know and have learned about their systems.. that
works...and I am not then immune to learning myself.

..
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.



Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.


Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.


For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)

..

220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped
terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head....
and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running
situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed
connections in those locations)



Phil Scott
Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls
contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)

"Billy H" m
wrote in message
...

"Pop" wrote in message
news:KOPEf.60$pY.19@trndny01...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
...
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop"

: Gave us:
:
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
: .. .
: : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
: : Gave us:
: :
: :
: : "Pop" wrote in message
: : news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...
: :
: : "Long Ranger" wrote
in
: message
: :
k.net...
: : :
: : : "Toller" wrote in message
: : : ...
: : :
: : : "Roy L. Fuchs"
wrote
in
: : message
: : :
...
: : : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
: :
: : : Gave us:
: : :
: : : The question I asked was for a single tinned
stranded
: wire
: : in a pressure
: : : connection.
: : :
: : :
: : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot
be
: soldered.
: : :
: : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a
reference
for
: that?
: : : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was
unaware
of
: this
: : : prohibition...)
: : :
: : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the
: connection. The
: : solder is
: : : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it
gets
hot,
: it
: : gets loose. You
: : : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure
of the
: : connector.
: : :
: : :
: : :
: : :
: :
: : In other words, it's an interpretation of the
standardS
: rather
: : than a written rule?
: :
: : Pop
: :
: : Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was
debateable,
but
: that I tended
: : to agree with it.
: :
: :
: : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted
practice.
:
: If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt
wise,
: you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can
only be
: decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a
specific
: case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes
depend on
: the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in
turn
: makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an
: "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the
rules
and
: regulations.
:
: Pop
:
: Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion
into a
crimped
: connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been
acceptable.
: There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the military
and
NEC
: standards and practices.
:
: It is NOT about any form of "inspector's interpretation".
:
: The electronics industry, above all, is not of that
nature
either.
: The guidelines have been set for years and the
differences
between
: military, industrial and commercial practice are not all
that
varied,
: yet they are concise enough to make your statement false.

Wow, I feel sorry for you; I'm through with you - you're a
closed
mind.




If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of
the strands, how the electricity actually *moves* then the
concept begins to open up. Electricity travels on the
surface of the circuitry. For wires the area of travel is
the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Adding
solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the
terminal rather than tin the strands you change the surface
area of the wire and hence the physical characteristics of
the cable.


Thats interesting... and at the least reasonably valid
possibly. Id like to hear more about that.

in the controls business of course the amperage very small so
thats not an issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a
soldered in connection would make a good google search.... If
I find anything on that I will post it.

Here is what I have so far though. but that could and may
well be all related to electronics or control circuits...


..
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.



Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.


Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.


For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)

..

220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped
terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head....
and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running
situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed
connections in those locations)



Phil Scott
Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls
contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:50:22 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


"not i" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller"
wrote:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--

Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire
in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be
soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for
that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
prohibition...)




This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112
Conductor
joints and splices
(1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or
spices in
insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall first
be made
mechanically and electrically secure.


Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors
(1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by
wire-binding
terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the
strands
confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause
either
short-circuits or grounds.




My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the
strands!


Not only correct but the only way to go in many cases... it
seems most on the NG are house wiring guys and applying NEC as
they see it in homes etc...but not of course in the industrial
markets.


What a silly thing to say.
.
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Not true. In corrosive environments (like your marine scenario)
standard non-gas tight connectors are not spec'd. If they are used,
they will corrode. A gas tight connector must be used, and that too,
would NOT require any solder.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

The huge crimped terminal on a commercial battery cable is NOT a gsa
tight termination. What does get used gets soldered because that is
the only way they can give the termination SOME life span.


This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.

Yet not seen in ANY marine environment where the proper fittings are
used. Most consumer level crap won't have such overtly expensive
hardware in it, hence the "workaround", with solder.

Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...

If the wire warms to the melt point temperature of solder, then
there is a much larger underlying problem with the circuit or the
wiring design. NO circuit wiring should EVER rise to that temperature
in ANY non fault mode of operation. EVER.

and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used..

It is not referred to as extrusion, it is called CREEP.

the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.

The military were the inventors of the gas tight crimped connection.

Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.

If the connection is gas tight, it will be vapor and liquid tight as
well. If it is not made using gas tight methods, then it is open to a
host of problems. Many of which solder still does not fix or address.

For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

It varies from product producer to product producer as some of them
conform tightly to proper manufacturing specs and some do not.
That doesn't make those that do not "most if not all".

The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)

None of those will be crimp style connectors. It is either a solder
terminal or a crimp terminal... not both.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


Correct...you do not solder wire before it goes into a
crimped connector...but you do after it goes into a solder
socket connector and there are crimped connectors made to be
soldered as well of course.


Nope. There are solder cup connectors that DO get soldered, and
there are crimp type connectors. Find ONE crimp style connector that
is meant, by design to be soldered. CITE!

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Phil Scott

Why did you cut and paste the same tired old CRAP several times?

ONCE is enough, chucko.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:18:17 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Maybe our friend Roy will.

**** you , retard! You have now posted the SAME cut and paste CRAP
seven times or more. You need to bone up on Usenet, you retarded
****!

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:23:15 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Phil Scott

Goddamned cut and paste retard!

Just so you know, in many circles what you did is considered SPAM.

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"Billy H" m
wrote in message
...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:




Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting.

Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools'
gripes with
another in the middle of a serious discussion.


Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the
country is run by
lawyers methinks.


So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for
making a
perfectly good, technical point.

If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it.


And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in
public


Maybe our friend Roy will.


Some people don't know any better. We must pity them.


.
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.



Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.


Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.


For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)

.

220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped
terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head....
and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running
situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed
connections in those locations)



Phil Scott
Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls
contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"Billy H" m
wrote in message
...

"Pop" wrote in message
news:KOPEf.60$pY.19@trndny01...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
...
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop"

: Gave us:
:
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
: .. .
: : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
: : Gave us:
: :
: :
: : "Pop" wrote in message
: : news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...
: :
: : "Long Ranger" wrote
in
: message
: :
k.net...
: : :
: : : "Toller" wrote in message
: : : ...
: : :
: : : "Roy L. Fuchs"
wrote
in
: : message
: : :
...
: : : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
: :
: : : Gave us:
: : :
: : : The question I asked was for a single tinned
stranded
: wire
: : in a pressure
: : : connection.
: : :
: : :
: : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot
be
: soldered.
: : :
: : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a
reference
for
: that?
: : : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was
unaware
of
: this
: : : prohibition...)
: : :
: : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the
: connection. The
: : solder is
: : : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it
gets
hot,
: it
: : gets loose. You
: : : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure
of the
: : connector.
: : :
: : :
: : :
: : :
: :
: : In other words, it's an interpretation of the
standardS
: rather
: : than a written rule?
: :
: : Pop
: :
: : Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was
debateable,
but
: that I tended
: : to agree with it.
: :
: :
: : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted
practice.
:
: If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt
wise,
: you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can
only be
: decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a
specific
: case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes
depend on
: the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in
turn
: makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an
: "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the
rules
and
: regulations.
:
: Pop
:
: Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion
into a
crimped
: connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been
acceptable.
: There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the military
and
NEC
: standards and practices.
:
: It is NOT about any form of "inspector's interpretation".
:
: The electronics industry, above all, is not of that
nature
either.
: The guidelines have been set for years and the
differences
between
: military, industrial and commercial practice are not all
that
varied,
: yet they are concise enough to make your statement false.

Wow, I feel sorry for you; I'm through with you - you're a
closed
mind.




If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of
the strands, how the electricity actually *moves* then the
concept begins to open up. Electricity travels on the
surface of the circuitry. For wires the area of travel is
the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Adding
solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the
terminal rather than tin the strands you change the surface
area of the wire and hence the physical characteristics of
the cable.


Thats interesting... and at the least reasonably valid
possibly. Id like to hear more about that.

in the controls business of course the amperage very small so
thats not an issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a
soldered in connection would make a good google search.... If
I find anything on that I will post it.

Here is what I have so far though. but that could and may
well be all related to electronics or control circuits...


.
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.



Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.


Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.


For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)



I totally agree with you, however Roy Boy does not.





.

220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped
terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head....
and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running
situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed
connections in those locations)



Phil Scott
Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls
contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:01:25 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us:

You, along with several others have taken a good question
asked by one who only needed a simple but reliable answer and
have turned it into a crapfest of who knows what about what, and
very few of the comments have had any real basis in fact, let
along related to the OP's quest.

You are one lost mother ****er, boy.

There have been several posts which are based on FACT. Just not many
if not any of yours.

You deride him for his comments on the military, but you essentially
said the same thing with your "open to interpretation" post. It was
from that point on that YOU discontinued actually speaking on the
topic, and started acting like a ****ing wussy.

Go back and read the posts. There are many that have it right, and
many that have it wrong, and in case you are still lost, this group is
for exactly what you claim we are all doing wrong.

Usenet is a crapfest and that is why your lame ass is in the barrel.

And the thread is NOT off topic, dip****.

I'll say it again. Crimped on, compression style connectors should
NOT be soldered. Not after the connector is crimped on, nor the wire
before it is inserted.


Sometimes they should be soldered after they are crimped.






Call AMP or MOLEX and they'll explain it to your ass as well. You
seem to think no one in the groups here know what they are talking
about.

You're a goddamned loser if you think you can get away with that
baby bull****.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:23:15 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Phil Scott

Goddamned cut and paste retard!

Just so you know, in many circles what you did is
considered SPAM.

Dang Roy... abusive language and a failure to address the
issues is not doing yer cause any good... can you address
those. Others will be you know.

Soldering crimped connections is standard in many aspects of
industrial wiring... I just posted the technical links.


Phil Scott

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:18:17 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Maybe our friend Roy will.


**** you , retard! You have now posted the SAME cut and
paste CRAP
seven times or more. You need to bone up on Usenet, you
retarded
****!


errrr Roy? You are labling yourself badly with such
language, then refuse to address the issues, not impressive.

"Spokesman" wrote in message
...

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"Billy H"
m
wrote in message
...

"Pop" wrote in message
news:KOPEf.60$pY.19@trndny01...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
...
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop"

: Gave us:
:
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote
in
message
: .. .
: : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
: : Gave us:
: :
: :
: : "Pop" wrote in
message
: : news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...
: :
: : "Long Ranger"
wrote
in
: message
: :
k.net...
: : :
: : : "Toller" wrote in message
: : : ...
: : :
: : : "Roy L. Fuchs"

wrote
in
: : message
: : :
...
: : : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
: :
: : : Gave us:
: : :
: : : The question I asked was for a single
tinned
stranded
: wire
: : in a pressure
: : : connection.
: : :
: : :
: : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection
cannot
be
: soldered.
: : :
: : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a
reference
for
: that?
: : : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was
unaware
of
: this
: : : prohibition...)
: : :
: : : It goes back to depending on the solder for
the
: connection. The
: : solder is
: : : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If
it
gets
hot,
: it
: : gets loose. You
: : : are depending on the solder to hold the
pressure
of the
: : connector.
: : :
: : :
: : :
: : :
: :
: : In other words, it's an interpretation of the
standardS
: rather
: : than a written rule?
: :
: : Pop
: :
: : Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was
debateable,
but
: that I tended
: : to agree with it.
: :
: :
: : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted
practice.
:
: If you become more familiar with rules & regulations
gvt
wise,
: you'll learn that there are many, many cases which
can
only be
: decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a
specific
: case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes
depend on
: the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which
in
turn
: makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been
an
: "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the
rules
and
: regulations.
:
: Pop
:
: Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion
into a
crimped
: connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been
acceptable.
: There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the
military
and
NEC
: standards and practices.
:
: It is NOT about any form of "inspector's
interpretation".
:
: The electronics industry, above all, is not of that
nature
either.
: The guidelines have been set for years and the
differences
between
: military, industrial and commercial practice are not
all
that
varied,
: yet they are concise enough to make your statement
false.

Wow, I feel sorry for you; I'm through with you - you're
a
closed
mind.




If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of
the strands, how the electricity actually *moves* then
the
concept begins to open up. Electricity travels on the
surface of the circuitry. For wires the area of travel is
the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Adding
solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the
terminal rather than tin the strands you change the
surface
area of the wire and hence the physical characteristics
of
the cable.


Thats interesting... and at the least reasonably valid
possibly. Id like to hear more about that.

in the controls business of course the amperage very small
so
thats not an issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at
a
soldered in connection would make a good google search....
If
I find anything on that I will post it.

Here is what I have so far though. but that could and may
well be all related to electronics or control circuits...


.
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into
the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.



Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the
military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not
the
other aspects.


Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint
(by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.


For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not
all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends
in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors...
the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

The practice is not common with power circuits for the
reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those
are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)



I totally agree with you, however Roy Boy does not.

Roy has some other issues going on.. some who do only
houses, with romex etc are unaware of the high end issues.
that seems to be his situation. With the kind of approach
Roy shows to life he wouldnt do well in the high end
markets... if he cleaned that up though and studies some, he
could probably double his wage by learning something about
controls and industrial applications.


Phil Scott





.

220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non
crimped
terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw
head....
and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running
situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed
connections in those locations)



Phil Scott
Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls
contractor since 1852 (I'm very old)

Hey Roy... the money is on the professional end of the
market... professional behavior will get you there... here in
SF a good controls electrician can earn 80 dollars an hour...
a house wiring guy maybe 20 max.

In your area is probably a similar situation... you have a
chance to learn and advance and have the money to buy hot cars
and houses etc.

You would find that way in life ends better all around than
the option you are demonsrating.


Best,

Phil Scott

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:50:22 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


"not i" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller"
wrote:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
m...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--

Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded
wire
in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be
soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for
that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of
this
prohibition...)




This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112
Conductor
joints and splices
(1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or
spices in
insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall
first
be made
mechanically and electrically secure.


Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors
(1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by
wire-binding
terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the
strands
confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause
either
short-circuits or grounds.




My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the
strands!


Not only correct but the only way to go in many cases... it
seems most on the NG are house wiring guys and applying NEC
as
they see it in homes etc...but not of course in the
industrial
markets.


What a silly thing to say.
.
In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into
the
crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire
from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail..
thats common.

Not true. In corrosive environments (like your marine
scenario)
standard non-gas tight connectors are not spec'd. If they
are used,
they will corrode. A gas tight connector must be used, and
that too,
would NOT require any solder.

Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder
their wire into the crimped terminal ends.

The huge crimped terminal on a commercial battery cable is
NOT a gsa
tight termination. What does get used gets soldered because
that is
the only way they can give the termination SOME life span.


This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on
both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits.

Yet not seen in ANY marine environment where the proper
fittings are
used. Most consumer level crap won't have such overtly
expensive
hardware in it, hence the "workaround", with solder.

Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many
problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the
wire warms too much...

If the wire warms to the melt point temperature of solder,
then
there is a much larger underlying problem with the circuit
or the
wiring design. NO circuit wiring should EVER rise to that
temperature
in ANY non fault mode of operation. EVER.

and extrusion of the solder under
compressive stress if screw connectors are used..

It is not referred to as extrusion, it is called CREEP.

the military
specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the
other aspects.

The military were the inventors of the gas tight crimped
connection.

Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to
increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to
preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by
wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the
cause of failure in those situations.

If the connection is gas tight, it will be vapor and liquid
tight as
well. If it is not made using gas tight methods, then it is
open to a
host of problems. Many of which solder still does not fix
or address.

For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all
controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends
in
solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the
practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control
circuits.

It varies from product producer to product producer as some
of them
conform tightly to proper manufacturing specs and some do
not.
That doesn't make those that do not "most if not all".

The practice is not common with power circuits for the
reasons
mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily
corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved
soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those
are
also pervasively common, especially in the electronics
industry.)

None of those will be crimp style connectors. It is either
a solder
terminal or a crimp terminal... not both.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


Correct...you do not solder wire before it goes into a
crimped connector...but you do after it goes into a solder
socket connector and there are crimped connectors made to be
soldered as well of course.


Nope. There are solder cup connectors that DO get
soldered, and
there are crimp type connectors. Find ONE crimp style
connector that
is meant, by design to be soldered. CITE!

Those in the link you snipped.... any crimped connector can
be soldered or not soldered.. they are not specifically
designed to be soldered... but are solderable, and in many
corrosive environments are soldered to keep the wire from
corroding inside the crimp.

If you want the links refer to most my posts you chose to
snip or new threads Ive begun on the subject.




Phil Scott

Roy... you have been a combination of nasty, abusive and
ignorant.... you can do better. At this point the issues of
soldered connections has been fully covered in the links
provided... you have made your abusive and ignorant nature
fully evident.

Not too many people Roy will be interested in further
association with you... again there are new threads on this
issue, with links and my existing posts with links on all of
these issues. Your spinning and screaming is only making
you look bad.

better that you understand no one knows everything...and that
this is merely one tiny area that you were unfamiliar with and
could or still can easily learn the new information instead of
defending your fly spec of error...we all err... it is
defending our error that ruins us.


If you spin your head around so that in your mind you are
justified with all the vile language etc, you will have
rationalized your own insanity and that will ruin your entire
life and that of anyone connected with you. Bad mistakes
Roy...

you have a chance to see that and maybe just let it drop...and
do things differently in the future...your entire life will
improve if you do..and if you study up on industrial
electrical issues your income could easily double or triple.




Phil Scott



"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Phil Scott

Why did you cut and paste the same tired old CRAP several
times?

ONCE is enough, chucko.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:09:17 -0500, "Spokesman" Gave
us:

I totally agree with you, however Roy Boy does not.

I takes a true Usenet retard to quote 248 lines of CRAP just so he
can write one line of utter retarded baby bull****.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:00:03 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:23:15 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Phil Scott

Goddamned cut and paste retard!

Just so you know, in many circles what you did is
considered SPAM.

Dang Roy... abusive language and a failure to address the
issues is not doing yer cause any good... can you address
those. Others will be you know.

You're an idiot.

Soldering crimped connections is standard in many aspects of
industrial wiring... I just posted the technical links.

No, you retarded twit, you pasted the same **** into several posts.
You are about one of the most retarded Usenet posters going.
BONE UP, dip****!

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:06:13 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Roy has some other issues going on.. some who do only
houses, with romex etc are unaware of the high end issues.
that seems to be his situation. With the kind of approach
Roy shows to life he wouldnt do well in the high end
markets... if he cleaned that up though and studies some, he
could probably double his wage by learning something about
controls and industrial applications.


You are about as retarded as it gets, boy.

You are not only insulting electricians, but you think that I am one
of them.

I have been working in manufacturing, in the electronics industry for
28 years, you stupid, retarded *******. Mainly in military, space,
medical, and industrial applications, so you can go **** yourself...
oh that's right... you just did.

.. if he cleaned that up though and studies some, he
could probably double his wage by learning something about
controls and industrial applications.


Said the total retard that thinks "electrons travel on the wire
surface" and "stranded wire has a higher ampacity than the same size
solid wire because it has more surface area"

It is you that needs to get a clue, dip**** Phil.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:10:34 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


Hey Roy... the money is on the professional end of the
market... professional behavior will get you there...

I don't need a seminar about professionalism from a ****ing retard
that doesn't even know how to refrain from top posting in Usenet.

here in
SF a good controls electrician can earn 80 dollars an hour...
a house wiring guy maybe 20 max.

You're an idiot. This entire thread has NOTHING to do with "a house
wiring guy". Stop ringing your own bell, dip****. You ain't "all
that".

In your area is probably a similar situation... you have a
chance to learn and advance and have the money to buy hot cars
and houses etc.

My god, you are one retarded ****.

You would find that way in life ends better all around than
the option you are demonsrating.

You couldn't assess what is said in these groups if your life
depended on it, you ****ing know nothing retarded *******.

The fact that you requoted the entire post under the total tripe you
wrote proves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post

Read the part just after the beginning marked "TOFU".

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:23:09 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:56:19 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


Correct...you do not solder wire before it goes into a
crimped connector...but you do after it goes into a solder
socket connector and there are crimped connectors made to be
soldered as well of course.


Nope. There are solder cup connectors that DO get
soldered, and
there are crimp type connectors. Find ONE crimp style
connector that
is meant, by design to be soldered. CITE!

Those in the link you snipped.... any crimped connector can
be soldered or not soldered..


NOT TRUE! Stop spreading FUD, you ****ing retard.

they are not specifically
designed to be soldered...

OMG, the first thing you have said that is true!

but are solderable,

Wrong.

and in many
corrosive environments are soldered to keep the wire from
corroding inside the crimp.

If the environment is corrosive, then the parts need to be
different. Got clue?

If you want the links refer to most my posts you chose to
snip or new threads Ive begun on the subject.

Your link was lame, dip****.

This is ALL that applies in your touted industrial setting:

IPC/WHMA-A-620

Whenever there is a soldered connection, ther must also be a cable
clamp right near it. You need a clamp around your neck. With you, it
would likely help. As it stands right now, your lifelong acquired
brain death doesn't cut it.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:06:13 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:

Roy has some other issues going on.. some who do only
houses, with romex etc are unaware of the high end issues.
that seems to be his situation. With the kind of approach
Roy shows to life he wouldnt do well in the high end
markets... if he cleaned that up though and studies some, he
could probably double his wage by learning something about
controls and industrial applications.


You are about as retarded as it gets, boy.

You are not only insulting electricians, but you think that
I am one
of them.

I have been working in manufacturing, in the electronics
industry for
28 years, you stupid, retarded *******. Mainly in military,
space,
medical, and industrial applications, so you can go ****
yourself...
oh that's right... you just did.

.. if he cleaned that up though and studies some, he
could probably double his wage by learning something about
controls and industrial applications.


Said the total retard that thinks "electrons travel on the
wire
surface" and "stranded wire has a higher ampacity than the
same size
solid wire because it has more surface area"

I didnt say that... someone else posited the notion when
asserting that soldering stranded wire into a terminal would
reduce its ampacity for that reason... I merely noticed that
the NEC didnt have a different rating for stranded or solid
wire of the same alloy etc. even though the stranded had a
greater surface area...which was the point of this persons
remark.


Roy.... your behavior, trashing and spin is doing you imensely
more damage than those you target, and it is doing more harm
to those around you than anyone else... you are a carrier of
dis-ease. ..your behavior is abusive, not the mark of a
sentient person.... and the entire NG notices that....


We have posted good links and you have ignored them, chosen to
spin and issue abuse, this speaks to your own lack of self
respect... you have marked yourself, and its not with a badge
of honor or decency..

That will not work out well for you or anyone close to you
over time.



Now Roy .. I will have to leave you to your own devices.


Phil Scott




It is you that needs to get a clue, dip**** Phil.

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.

Is one of the conventions to abuse people you don't agree with? If so,
we need to rework those conventions.

R

On 10 Feb 2006 23:49:27 -0800, "RicodJour"
Gave us:

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.

Is one of the conventions to abuse people you don't agree with? If so,
we need to rework those conventions.

There is a big difference between free speech, and posting like a
goddamned retard that has never been in Usenet before.

If you had half a brain, you would be able to see that they have
been just as abusive. Just because someone doesn't have the balls to
use an expletive doesn't mean that they aren't spouting insults.

Then there is the issue of them not knowing what the **** they are
talking about. Where are your posts to them for the same thing, and
those from you to them about how stupid their knowledge of electronics
is?

Also, this groups isn't about agreeing with someone. It is a very
technical group, and their FUD doers nothing to help that. One
doesn't foist one's retarded opinions on a group that is about facts.

Tell us, oh guru of knowledge... where do electrons flow in a wire?

It is either FACT or FUD, and his bull**** is FUD.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:10:34 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us:


Hey Roy... the money is on the professional end of the
market... professional behavior will get you there...

I don't need a seminar about professionalism from a ****ing retard
that doesn't even know how to refrain from top posting in Usenet.

here in
SF a good controls electrician can earn 80 dollars an hour...
a house wiring guy maybe 20 max.

You're an idiot. This entire thread has NOTHING to do with "a house
wiring guy". Stop ringing your own bell, dip****. You ain't "all
that".

In your area is probably a similar situation... you have a
chance to learn and advance and have the money to buy hot cars
and houses etc.

My god, you are one retarded ****.

You would find that way in life ends better all around than
the option you are demonsrating.

You couldn't assess what is said in these groups if your life
depended on it, you ****ing know nothing retarded *******.

The fact that you requoted the entire post under the total tripe you
wrote proves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post

Read the part just after the beginning marked "TOFU".

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.


And it is you who try to teach us the conventions? I just hope there are not
too many susceptible children learning these conventions from you. Maybe you
have a pact with some anti-social gathering, what kind of rebel are you? Do
you plan to use your 'knowledge' of electrical engineering to melt the White
House? Maybe you plan to cause a short circuit in the Pentagon's power lines
and run in shouting 'The President is a ****tard retarded stupid dick' while
kicking your legs around and waving a copy of some goofy comic book like Viz
around in the hope the Civil Servants will succumb to your superior
iuntelligence and wisdom and give you control of the Senate and also the job
of rewiring the place. With luck someone will plug that 4000 volt cable you
have shoved up your arse into a supply cable capable of charging you with 20
amps. lol, I just hope they publish the pictures when they do.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On 10 Feb 2006 23:49:27 -0800, "RicodJour"
Gave us:

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.

Is one of the conventions to abuse people you don't agree with? If so,
we need to rework those conventions.

There is a big difference between free speech, and posting like a
goddamned retard that has never been in Usenet before.

If you had half a brain, you would be able to see that they have
been just as abusive. Just because someone doesn't have the balls to
use an expletive doesn't mean that they aren't spouting insults.

Then there is the issue of them not knowing what the **** they are
talking about. Where are your posts to them for the same thing, and
those from you to them about how stupid their knowledge of electronics
is?

Also, this groups isn't about agreeing with someone. It is a very
technical group, and their FUD doers nothing to help that. One
doesn't foist one's retarded opinions on a group that is about facts.

Tell us, oh guru of knowledge... where do electrons flow in a wire?

It is either FACT or FUD, and his bull**** is FUD.


"When it seems all around you have gone mad, they need to bring you the men
in white coats."

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of the strands,
how the electricity actually *moves* then the concept begins to open up.
Electricity travels on the surface of the circuitry. For wires the area
of travel is the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Adding
solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the terminal rather than
tin the strands you change the surface area of the wire and hence the
physical characteristics of the cable.


Thats interesting... and at the least reasonably valid possibly. Id like
to hear more about that.


I'll throw some ideas at you, and some titles, my apologies, I don't have
any net citations (I tend to learn from books especially if it's scientific
technical), but I'll quote from my textbooks. More if you wish.

Think of rubbing an ebonite rod with dry fur.

"An ebonite rod which has been rubbed with dry fur attracts light bodies,
such as small pieces of paper, and it repels another rod which has been
treated in the ame way. A glass rod which has been rubbed with silk also
attracts light bodies, repels another glass rod which has been similarly
rubbed, and attracts an ebonite rod which has been rubbed with fur."

"A negative charge placed at any point on an insulated conductor repels
electrons in the material to all parts of the surface, while a positive
charge at any point attracts electrons from all parts. That is, a charge
placed anywhere on a conductor effectively spreads all over it, because the
electrons in the material itself are free to move. Insulators do not contain
free electrons, and electrons are not easily seperated from their positive
nuclei; so a charge placed on an insulator does nt spread over its surface.
Ebonite, glass, mica, paraffin wax, sulphur, and dry silk are among the best
insulators. Dry air and dry gases generally are good insulators in ordinary
circumstances; moisture in a gas or on the surface of a solid reduces the
insulating properties greatly. Electric forces act *through* (itallicised in
the text) insulators, which when spoken of in this connection are called
*dielectrics* (itallicised in the text)."


Think of the Gold Leaf Electroscope.

Charging by induction.

The Electrophorus.

Faradsy's "ice-pail" experiment.

Distribution of potential and charge over the surface of a conductor.

Capacity. Condensors.

Displacement currents.
"Maxwell defined the displacement current as *the quantity of
electricity which is caused to pass normally through one square centimetre
of the dielectric on account of the electric intensity*. If there is a
surface density of charge of Q ESU per sq. cm. on the plate A, a charge Q
moves across each square centimetre of the dielectric from A to Z, so *the
displacement D in the medium is equal to the surface density Q on the
charged plate*. The electric intensity, as the cause of the displacement, is
analogous to mechanical stress, and the displacement to mechanical strain.
The energy stored in unit volume of a mechanically strained elastic medium
is 1/2*(stressxstrain). The electrical energy stored in unit volume of the
medium is similarly 1/2x(intensityxdisplacement), or 1/2ED."

(confuses my concept somewhat)

Wimhurst machine.

Van de Graff generator.

Gauss's Theorem.

- Intensity due to an isolated charge conducting sphere (pg 35)

- Intensity close to the surface of a conductor (36)

- Force on the surface of a charged conductor (36)
"The charge resides entirely on the surface, and the reason why
the charge on any element is held there is that all the other charges from
all over the conductor combine to produce an intensity directed outwards
which holds it there. Further, as there is no intensity inside the
conductor, the intensity due to the charge on the element must just cancel
out that due to all the other charges at points inside the surface." goes on
to say "... It remains to reconcile the two results..."


Law of inverse squares.

Definition of the absolute EMU of current "that current which, flowing in an
arc 1cm. long of a circle of 1cm. radius, produces at the centre of the
circel an intensity of 1 oersted."
"The practical unit of current, called the ampere, is one-tenth of the
absolute unit. " cf pg(110 and 323)


Heating effect of a current.

Mechanical equivalent of heat.

Electric Lamps and heaters. (178)

Electrolysis. Electroplating. (cf witchcraft, lol)


Textbook of electricity and magnetism. G.R. Noakes MA (Oxon) F.Inst.P.

(a man who could express himself without using the word '****tard' or
'retard' or any other derogation I can find).

London, Macmillan. 3rd edition. 1956. Maybe the times have changed.

A study of the fuse would likely be good.

Oh and Roy, before you explode like a fool, you are sacked as a tutor. Maybe
I'll write you a new standard.


I feel sorry for the Original Poster, the ****e posted in here so far may
have scard him off for life. "wow, look what I've done now" he thinks as the
bar-room is trashed and the ladies run for cover.




in the controls business of course the amperage very small so thats not an
issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a soldered in
connection would make a good google search.... If I find anything on that
I will post it.


I'd be interested too, I posted what I said because of studies I did while
working for Philips components; working making magnets with some really
illuminating chemicals, the stuff used was hydrophilic and pyrophoric, it
combusted when we poured Vmto onto it! They use our little magnets inside
computer Hard Dives now.
The studies weren't reqired for the job, but they were interesting none the
less.


--
Billy H

The spirit is not the letter, 2 corinthians 3,6

When a ship heels at sea she must give equal
draught to lee as she takes to windward.
Else she becomes unstable fore and aft, and
may become quite sickly.

Nantes-Howard Naval Architecture 'n' Terrestrial Engineering Services.

A subsidiary of Howard Engineering.
_________________________________________
Live like a ship. Give and Take.
=========================================

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:56:15 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


And it is you who try to teach us the conventions? I just hope there are not
too many susceptible children learning these conventions from you. Maybe you
have a pact with some anti-social gathering, what kind of rebel are you? Do
you plan to use your 'knowledge' of electrical engineering to melt the White
House? Maybe you plan to cause a short circuit in the Pentagon's power lines
and run in shouting 'The President is a ****tard retarded stupid dick' while
kicking your legs around and waving a copy of some goofy comic book like Viz
around in the hope the Civil Servants will succumb to your superior
iuntelligence and wisdom and give you control of the Senate and also the job
of rewiring the place. With luck someone will plug that 4000 volt cable you
have shoved up your arse into a supply cable capable of charging you with 20
amps. lol, I just hope they publish the pictures when they do.


All one paragraph? You're an idiot. I hope you are not trying to
teach your kids anything about the english language, jackass.

"iuntelligence"? WTF is that, asswipe?

You also show your knowledge of electronics to be about nil.

"charging with 20 Amps"???

You're an idiot.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:58:51 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
.. .
On 10 Feb 2006 23:49:27 -0800, "RicodJour"
Gave us:

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

You need to learn how to conform to the conventions of this group you
so readily invade, you stupid ****.

Is one of the conventions to abuse people you don't agree with? If so,
we need to rework those conventions.

There is a big difference between free speech, and posting like a
goddamned retard that has never been in Usenet before.

If you had half a brain, you would be able to see that they have
been just as abusive. Just because someone doesn't have the balls to
use an expletive doesn't mean that they aren't spouting insults.

Then there is the issue of them not knowing what the **** they are
talking about. Where are your posts to them for the same thing, and
those from you to them about how stupid their knowledge of electronics
is?

Also, this groups isn't about agreeing with someone. It is a very
technical group, and their FUD doers nothing to help that. One
doesn't foist one's retarded opinions on a group that is about facts.

Tell us, oh guru of knowledge... where do electrons flow in a wire?

It is either FACT or FUD, and his bull**** is FUD.


"When it seems all around you have gone mad, they need to bring you the men
in white coats."


Said the idiot that uses non-words like "iuntelligence".

And refers to the operation of a circuit as "somebody should charge
you at 20 Amps..."

You are a brainless twit, at best.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:04:45 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:



I'll throw some ideas at you,

What an idiot.

and some titles, my apologies, I don't have
any net citations (I tend to learn from books especially if it's scientific
technical), but I'll quote from my textbooks. More if you wish.

Think of rubbing an ebonite rod with dry fur.

"An ebonite rod which has been rubbed with dry fur attracts light bodies,
such as small pieces of paper, and it repels another rod which has been
treated in the ame way. A glass rod which has been rubbed with silk also
attracts light bodies, repels another glass rod which has been similarly
rubbed, and attracts an ebonite rod which has been rubbed with fur."

Nice cut and paste. Still doesn't show that YOU actually know
anything about it. It also has nothing to do with the post topic.


"A negative charge placed at any point on an insulated conductor repels
electrons in the material to all parts of the surface, while a positive
charge at any point attracts electrons from all parts.


You're an idiot. An electrostatically charged insulative surface
can only have the electrons pulled off by contact. Not with a single
point on the surface, but only by a wiping action where ALL points on
the surface get touched and only when said contact is by a CONDUCTOR.

That is, a charge
placed anywhere on a conductor effectively spreads all over it, because the
electrons in the material itself are free to move.

No ****. But you did not say "a conductor" you said "an insulated
conductor". Big difference, idiot.

Insulators do not contain
free electrons, and electrons are not easily seperated from their positive
nuclei; so a charge placed on an insulator does nt spread over its surface.

That depends on how the charge gets "placed" and where as well.

Ebonite, glass, mica, paraffin wax, sulphur, and dry silk are among the best
insulators.

mica is the best insulator. Glass is next. "Dry silk" is an
insulator but can be easily "breached" by a voltage that is not that
high.

Dry air and dry gases generally are good insulators in ordinary
circumstances;

That would depend on which gas, dumbass.

moisture in a gas or on the surface of a solid reduces the
insulating properties greatly. Electric forces act *through* (itallicised in
the text) insulators, which when spoken of in this connection are called
*dielectrics* (itallicised in the text)."

However electrostatic charges behave a bit differently. Make up
your mind what you are yacking off about.

Think of the Gold Leaf Electroscope.

It could have been a lead leaf device. Thin gold leaf just makes the
effect more visible.


Charging by induction.

Not in the above device.

The Electrophorus.

The triboelectric effect. Run and look that one up now.

Faradsy's "ice-pail" experiment.

Who is Faradsy?

Distribution of potential and charge over the surface of a conductor.

If it is a conductor, it isn't merely "on the surface" unless it is in
proximity to an oppositely charged device.

Capacity. Condensors.

Displacement currents.
"Maxwell defined the displacement current as *the quantity of
electricity which is caused to pass normally through one square centimetre
of the dielectric on account of the electric intensity*. If there is a
surface density of charge of Q ESU per sq. cm. on the plate A, a charge Q
moves across each square centimetre of the dielectric from A to Z, so *the
displacement D in the medium is equal to the surface density Q on the
charged plate*.

You're real good at the cut and paste crap, but I'd bet you have no
grasp of it.

The electric intensity, as the cause of the displacement, is
analogous to mechanical stress, and the displacement to mechanical strain.
The energy stored in unit volume of a mechanically strained elastic medium
is 1/2*(stressxstrain). The electrical energy stored in unit volume of the
medium is similarly 1/2x(intensityxdisplacement), or 1/2ED."

With you, the charge is always zero, because you have no potential
for anything but to cut n paste other folk's material.

(confuses my concept somewhat)

Hahahahaha... See... I told you. You be idiot.

Wimhurst machine.

Van de Graff generator.

Gauss's Theorem.

You - pile of ****.

A study of the fuse would likely be good.

The three nerves between the two halves of your brain have fused
open, lobotomy boy.

Oh and Roy, before you explode like a fool, you are sacked as a tutor. Maybe
I'll write you a new standard.


You're a goddamned retard. The discussion has NOTHING to do with
electrostatics.


I feel sorry for the Original Poster,

He probably feels sorry for you.

the ****e posted in here so far

Then STOP!

may
have scard him off for life. "wow, look what I've done now" he thinks as the
bar-room is trashed and the ladies run for cover.

You be idiot.

in the controls business of course the amperage very small so thats not an
issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a soldered in
connection would make a good google search.... If I find anything on that
I will post it.

Solder is a poorer conductor than copper. Doh!

I'd be interested too, I posted what I said because of studies I did while
working for Philips components; working making magnets with some really
illuminating chemicals,

Is that why you act like you have been lobotomized?

Rare earth magnets. You, however, are not rare at all. Idiots are
everywhere. You are one in ten.

I am one in over 6 billion.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:56:15 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


And it is you who try to teach us the conventions? I just hope there are
not
too many susceptible children learning these conventions from you. Maybe
you
have a pact with some anti-social gathering, what kind of rebel are you?
Do
you plan to use your 'knowledge' of electrical engineering to melt the
White
House? Maybe you plan to cause a short circuit in the Pentagon's power
lines
and run in shouting 'The President is a ****tard retarded stupid dick'
while
kicking your legs around and waving a copy of some goofy comic book like
Viz
around in the hope the Civil Servants will succumb to your superior
iuntelligence and wisdom and give you control of the Senate and also the
job
of rewiring the place. With luck someone will plug that 4000 volt cable
you
have shoved up your arse into a supply cable capable of charging you with
20
amps. lol, I just hope they publish the pictures when they do.


All one paragraph? You're an idiot. I hope you are not trying to
teach your kids anything about the english language, jackass.

"iuntelligence"? WTF is that, asswipe?

You also show your knowledge of electronics to be about nil.

"charging with 20 Amps"???

You're an idiot.


http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html


Go spit your dummy elsewhere.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:27:05 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:56:15 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


And it is you who try to teach us the conventions? I just hope there are
not
too many susceptible children learning these conventions from you. Maybe
you
have a pact with some anti-social gathering, what kind of rebel are you?
Do
you plan to use your 'knowledge' of electrical engineering to melt the
White
House? Maybe you plan to cause a short circuit in the Pentagon's power
lines
and run in shouting 'The President is a ****tard retarded stupid dick'
while
kicking your legs around and waving a copy of some goofy comic book like
Viz
around in the hope the Civil Servants will succumb to your superior
iuntelligence and wisdom and give you control of the Senate and also the
job
of rewiring the place. With luck someone will plug that 4000 volt cable
you
have shoved up your arse into a supply cable capable of charging you with
20
amps. lol, I just hope they publish the pictures when they do.


All one paragraph? You're an idiot. I hope you are not trying to
teach your kids anything about the english language, jackass.

"iuntelligence"? WTF is that, asswipe?

You also show your knowledge of electronics to be about nil.

"charging with 20 Amps"???

You're an idiot.


http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html


Go spit your dummy elsewhere.


Thing is, you're an idiot guilty of much of those items yourself,
dip****.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:04:45 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:



I'll throw some ideas at you,

What an idiot.

and some titles, my apologies, I don't have
any net citations (I tend to learn from books especially if it's
scientific
technical), but I'll quote from my textbooks. More if you wish.

Think of rubbing an ebonite rod with dry fur.

"An ebonite rod which has been rubbed with dry fur attracts light bodies,
such as small pieces of paper, and it repels another rod which has been
treated in the ame way. A glass rod which has been rubbed with silk also
attracts light bodies, repels another glass rod which has been similarly
rubbed, and attracts an ebonite rod which has been rubbed with fur."

Nice cut and paste. Still doesn't show that YOU actually know
anything about it. It also has nothing to do with the post topic.


"A negative charge placed at any point on an insulated conductor repels
electrons in the material to all parts of the surface, while a positive
charge at any point attracts electrons from all parts.


You're an idiot. An electrostatically charged insulative surface
can only have the electrons pulled off by contact. Not with a single
point on the surface, but only by a wiping action where ALL points on
the surface get touched and only when said contact is by a CONDUCTOR.

That is, a charge
placed anywhere on a conductor effectively spreads all over it, because
the
electrons in the material itself are free to move.

No ****. But you did not say "a conductor" you said "an insulated
conductor". Big difference, idiot.

Insulators do not contain
free electrons, and electrons are not easily seperated from their positive
nuclei; so a charge placed on an insulator does nt spread over its
surface.

That depends on how the charge gets "placed" and where as well.

Ebonite, glass, mica, paraffin wax, sulphur, and dry silk are among the
best
insulators.

mica is the best insulator. Glass is next. "Dry silk" is an
insulator but can be easily "breached" by a voltage that is not that
high.

Dry air and dry gases generally are good insulators in ordinary
circumstances;

That would depend on which gas, dumbass.

moisture in a gas or on the surface of a solid reduces the
insulating properties greatly. Electric forces act *through* (itallicised
in
the text) insulators, which when spoken of in this connection are called
*dielectrics* (itallicised in the text)."

However electrostatic charges behave a bit differently. Make up
your mind what you are yacking off about.

Think of the Gold Leaf Electroscope.

It could have been a lead leaf device. Thin gold leaf just makes the
effect more visible.


Charging by induction.

Not in the above device.

The Electrophorus.

The triboelectric effect. Run and look that one up now.

Faradsy's "ice-pail" experiment.

Who is Faradsy?

Distribution of potential and charge over the surface of a conductor.

If it is a conductor, it isn't merely "on the surface" unless it is in
proximity to an oppositely charged device.

Capacity. Condensors.

Displacement currents.
"Maxwell defined the displacement current as *the quantity of
electricity which is caused to pass normally through one square centimetre
of the dielectric on account of the electric intensity*. If there is a
surface density of charge of Q ESU per sq. cm. on the plate A, a charge Q
moves across each square centimetre of the dielectric from A to Z, so *the
displacement D in the medium is equal to the surface density Q on the
charged plate*.

You're real good at the cut and paste crap, but I'd bet you have no
grasp of it.

The electric intensity, as the cause of the displacement, is
analogous to mechanical stress, and the displacement to mechanical strain.
The energy stored in unit volume of a mechanically strained elastic medium
is 1/2*(stressxstrain). The electrical energy stored in unit volume of the
medium is similarly 1/2x(intensityxdisplacement), or 1/2ED."

With you, the charge is always zero, because you have no potential
for anything but to cut n paste other folk's material.

(confuses my concept somewhat)

Hahahahaha... See... I told you. You be idiot.

Wimhurst machine.

Van de Graff generator.

Gauss's Theorem.

You - pile of ****.

A study of the fuse would likely be good.

The three nerves between the two halves of your brain have fused
open, lobotomy boy.



You're a goddamned retard. The discussion has NOTHING to do with
electrostatics.


I feel sorry for the Original Poster,

He probably feels sorry for you.

the ****e posted in here so far

Then STOP!

may
have scard him off for life. "wow, look what I've done now" he thinks as
the
bar-room is trashed and the ladies run for cover.

You be idiot.

in the controls business of course the amperage very small so thats not
an
issue and we can solder the ends of the wire.

The idea you present on current flow being possibly less at a soldered
in
connection would make a good google search.... If I find anything on
that
I will post it.

Solder is a poorer conductor than copper. Doh!

I'd be interested too, I posted what I said because of studies I did while
working for Philips components; working making magnets with some really
illuminating chemicals,

Is that why you act like you have been lobotomized?

Rare earth magnets. You, however, are not rare at all. Idiots are
everywhere. You are one in ten.

I am one in over 6 billion.



Thanks for making me look so good. Maybe one day, if I ever see a reason to,
I'll repay the compliment.


Oh, and the lines you cut again.


Textbook of electricity and magnetism. G.R. Noakes MA (Oxon) F.Inst.P.

(a man who could express himself without using the word '****tard' or
'retard' or any other derogation I can find).

London, Macmillan. 3rd edition. 1956. Maybe the times have changed.

Oh and Roy, before you explode like a fool, you are sacked as a tutor. Maybe
I'll write you a new standard.

Now butt out, this is no longer your conversation.

Or do you not understand any words of the English language, never mind
electricity? I'll have to assume you do not if you continue.

I recall a converstation with a friend who works for an international
company. He told me you little lot cannot understand the job they do so they
need send us English over to do the thing for you. Just to be sure it is
done proper. You plainly are a stupid fool. Probably, and prima facie
retarded, to use the word properly (and no my brain is not connected to the
mains so I do not respond to postings so fast as you saddo - so I win the
bet).

Were you sexually abused as a child?

Or did you get your knob stuck in the mains once or twice? Maybe that is why
you know so much regards electrics.

As for copying and pasting; I learn from my elders and betters, I use time
honoured and established principles, and I know why (I don't go to a reg
and say, erm. I'm almost brainless but I can read so I'll do what the reg
says. If I use regs it is because I must, not because it is all I can do.).

As for insults, re-read all the posts you mixed up histolluff. You'll see
who needs the greater exercises in creative thought.

Call your mother, it's time you stopped sucking daddy's penis and she
changed your diper.


--
Billy H

"I'm an evil Scotsman and Jock is my name,
If you don't like the rules don't play the ****ing game!"

-------------------------------------------------------

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:27:05 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:56:15 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


And it is you who try to teach us the conventions? I just hope there are
not
too many susceptible children learning these conventions from you. Maybe
you
have a pact with some anti-social gathering, what kind of rebel are you?
Do
you plan to use your 'knowledge' of electrical engineering to melt the
White
House? Maybe you plan to cause a short circuit in the Pentagon's power
lines
and run in shouting 'The President is a ****tard retarded stupid dick'
while
kicking your legs around and waving a copy of some goofy comic book like
Viz
around in the hope the Civil Servants will succumb to your superior
iuntelligence and wisdom and give you control of the Senate and also the
job
of rewiring the place. With luck someone will plug that 4000 volt cable
you
have shoved up your arse into a supply cable capable of charging you
with
20
amps. lol, I just hope they publish the pictures when they do.


All one paragraph? You're an idiot. I hope you are not trying to
teach your kids anything about the english language, jackass.

"iuntelligence"? WTF is that, asswipe?

You also show your knowledge of electronics to be about nil.

"charging with 20 Amps"???

You're an idiot.


http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html


Go spit your dummy elsewhere.


Thing is, you're an idiot guilty of much of those items yourself,
dip****.


Ah, but I do it so much better and with so much more well founded reason.

"Billy H" m wrote in
message ...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
--
Billy H

"I'm an evil Scotsman and Jock is my name,
If you don't like the rules don't play the ****ing game!"


oh, and those words are Billy Connolly's by the way.


-------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:42:03 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


Oh, and the lines you cut again.


You're a ****ing retard. Once was enough, dip****.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:42:03 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:

Call your mother, it's time you stopped sucking daddy's penis and she
changed your diper.

You call yourself mature, or professional?

Try addressing the topic title, dumbass.

Your mother should be a jailed felon for the crime of not flushing
your retarded ass, the moment you exited her retarded ass.

Thanks for displaying once again how little you know about tinned
wires or solderless connectors.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:48:21 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:



Ah, but I do it so much better and with so much more well founded reason.


A piece of **** like you wouldn't know what well founded was if it
bit you in the ass. From the moment you chimed into this thread, you
have been wrong.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:59:24 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


"Billy H" m wrote in
message ...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
--
Billy H

"I'm an evil Scotsman and Jock is my name,
If you don't like the rules don't play the ****ing game!"


oh, and those words are Billy Connolly's by the way.


The part that you don't get is that you lost the game.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:59:24 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us:


"Billy H" m wrote in
message ...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
--
Billy H

"I'm an evil Scotsman and Jock is my name,
If you don't like the rules don't play the ****ing game!"


oh, and those words are Billy Connolly's by the way.


The part that you don't get is that you lost the game.


I'll admit I lost the game, but the reason I lost it is because I replied to
your foul ass of a brain. That was the losing move. No other way about it,
maybe this is gonna go on forever. I wonder how many postings usenet will
allow?