Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to
a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box .... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? Thanks for any info you share, Harry |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
back before the advent of 'solid state' and 'Printed circuit boards' all
electronics, even high power devices, used copper wires that were 'tinned' with solder before being attached to screw terminal strips. it was the 'professional way of doing it. as an electronics guy, I still 'tin' all wires I'm going to be soldering. "tinning" means putting a coating of heated solder over the bare wire PRIOR to making the final solder connection. "Harry Muscle" wrote in message ups.com... Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? Thanks for any info you share, Harry |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message ups.com... Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? The only prohibition is against a connection that depends on the solder; you could not solder the wire to the outlet because the screw fell off. Using solder for convenience, as you have, is fine. I usually crimp fittings on stranded wire. Now, your box project is suspect; but you didn't ask about that. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
In article . com,
"Harry Muscle" writes: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style. -- Andrew Gabriel |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
Andrew Gabriel ) said...
You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first. I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it and attach it to the terminal. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them at the time. The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be able to count how many strands it has. -- Calvin Henry-Cotnam "Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence." - Napoleon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid" |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message .. . : In article . com, : "Harry Muscle" writes: : Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to : a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? : : I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box : ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would : like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it : was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire : (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape : before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push : in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm : located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). : : The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of : reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the : thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a : different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an : outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any : problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw : that it's screwed on to, etc.? : : You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into : a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact : pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad : contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture : are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. : I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of : stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well : with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace : ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style. : : -- : Andrew Gabriel I know that, at least on Ottawa, and I imagine most places, you cannot tin wires to be used where an electrical inspecation is necessary. Same in the states. No, I cannot cite NEC, so no use asking. The reasons are exactly as Andrew pointed out. Solder compresses and deforms to whatever force is applied to it and as soon as air creeps in, there is corrosion, moisture, etc etc etc., not to mention the affects of vibrations, etc.. How do I know? I got to see a connection that failed, then started to heat (high currents) and the solder dripped out of the connection onto the wireing below it. No, it's not a horror story, but the melted solder wasn't too cute inside the box. Whoever installed it didn't know the first thing about tinning, besides it not being acceptable to do; he had the wiring well "blobbed" with sodlerg. I think I understand why you want to tin it, but properly dressed stranded wire will work perfectly under appropriate screw heads. If it's a permanent install, I'd modify it accordingly, again along the lines of Andrew's suggestions. He's right on. Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Calvin Henry-Cotnam" wrote in message om... Andrew Gabriel ) said... You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first. I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it and attach it to the terminal. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them at the time. The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be able to count how many strands it has. Reminds me of ET-Maintenance school in the military. Spent literally a *week* learning/practicing on just how to solder to bi-furcated and turret terminals. We too had to be able to count the strands after tinning. And how much insulation to strip off so that no more than 2 mm of conductor was exposed after attaching to terminal. And no melted insulation, and... and... and... There was something like 14 checks for each soldered terminal connection. Was bad enough on the bench, but then doing it laying on your back reaching up inside a cabinet with just a drop-light to see by. Now *that* was fun (NOT!!!). daestrom |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Andrew Gabriel ) said... You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first. I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it and attach it to the terminal. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them at the time. The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be able to count how many strands it has. damn, I remember having to go through that course back in the early 80's working with a defense contractor, was really hard. Their standards are very tough, for a good reason of course. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
daestrom wrote:
"Calvin Henry-Cotnam" wrote in message om... Andrew Gabriel ) said... You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first. I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it and attach it to the terminal. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them at the time. The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be able to count how many strands it has. Reminds me of ET-Maintenance school in the military. Spent literally a *week* learning/practicing on just how to solder to bi-furcated and turret terminals. We too had to be able to count the strands after tinning. And how much insulation to strip off so that no more than 2 mm of conductor was exposed after attaching to terminal. And no melted insulation, and... and... and... There was something like 14 checks for each soldered terminal connection. Was bad enough on the bench, but then doing it laying on your back reaching up inside a cabinet with just a drop-light to see by. Now *that* was fun (NOT!!!). daestrom I remember those too, And all thsoe damn hand cramps trying to hold everything steady while soldering upside down with arms reached up to the work and hoped you were good enough not to burn yourself. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Pop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message .. . : In article . com, : "Harry Muscle" writes: : Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to : a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? : : I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box : ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would : like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it : was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire : (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape : before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push : in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm : located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). : : The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of : reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the : thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a : different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an : outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any : problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw : that it's screwed on to, etc.? : : You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into : a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact : pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad : contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture : are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. : I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of : stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well : with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace : ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style. : : -- : Andrew Gabriel I know that, at least on Ottawa, and I imagine most places, you cannot tin wires to be used where an electrical inspecation is necessary. Same in the states. No, I cannot cite NEC, so no use asking. The reasons are exactly as Andrew pointed out. Solder compresses and deforms to whatever force is applied to it and as soon as air creeps in, there is corrosion, moisture, etc etc etc., not to mention the affects of vibrations, etc.. How do I know? I got to see a connection that failed, then started to heat (high currents) and the solder dripped out of the connection onto the wireing below it. No, it's not a horror story, but the melted solder wasn't too cute inside the box. Whoever installed it didn't know the first thing about tinning, besides it not being acceptable to do; he had the wiring well "blobbed" with sodlerg. I think I understand why you want to tin it, but properly dressed stranded wire will work perfectly under appropriate screw heads. If it's a permanent install, I'd modify it accordingly, again along the lines of Andrew's suggestions. He's right on. Pop I like a mechanical crimp to a terminal, but then followed up by soldering My father used crimped connections on all his wiring on his house, then soldered and taped (no wire nuts, was done in 1970) All still works great. At time when having to replace an outlet or light switch, everthing was still pretty solid, but do intend on doing a preety thorough inspection soon including junction boxes in the attic. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on solder.
It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward agreement on it. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Long Ranger wrote:
The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward agreement on it. The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice before wirenuts appeared. ---------------------- If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be borne almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow? bud-- |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Andrew Gabriel ) said... You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first. I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it and attach it to the terminal. The electric service panel in my house has long stranded ground wire held in two places by bolts. I dont think its tinned though. It is silver but I suppose it comes from the drop that way. -- Thank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Bud--" wrote in message ... Long Ranger wrote: The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward agreement on it. The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice before wirenuts appeared. ---------------------- If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be borne almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow? Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut, or skipping the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a proper joint. I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked particularly stable, so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would never have considered not using the nut. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Toller" wrote in message ... : : "Bud--" wrote in message : ... : Long Ranger wrote: : The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on : solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping : crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of : failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it : in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder : flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward : agreement on it. : The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is : that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice : before wirenuts appeared. : : ---------------------- : If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder : would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be borne : almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow? : : Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut, or skipping : the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a proper joint. : : I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked particularly stable, : so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would never have : considered not using the nut. : : I've done that, too. In fact, I did our whole house in Chgo that way. Lucked out and got a factory's worth of stranded wire on spools for free just as I was prepping to rewire. And yes, it passed inspection easily, first time, with only a comment about a power strip I left plugged in downstairs. Properly soldered, that would work. If you know how to do that, great. But if anyone thinks a solder joint is "good" because it looks nice and shiny and smooth, then go back to school because that wire nut's going to loosen up. Not many electricians know how to solder a joint that would accept a wire nut reliably (or any other similar fastening metod), and it would also require the metal spring type wire nut to be reliable. Something has to penetrate the solder coat to put pressure on the copper, not just on the solder. It's not as easy to accomplish for the inexperienced as one may think. Then, if they do get a good solder joint, they forget to use a heat sink and the insulation melts or burns on them. Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Pop wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message ... : : "Bud--" wrote in message : ... : Long Ranger wrote: : The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on : solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping : crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of : failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it : in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder : flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward : agreement on it. : The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is : that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice : before wirenuts appeared. : : ---------------------- : If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder : would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be borne : almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow? : : Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut, or skipping : the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a proper joint. : : I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked particularly stable, : so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would never have : considered not using the nut. : : I've done that, too. In fact, I did our whole house in Chgo that way. Lucked out and got a factory's worth of stranded wire on spools for free just as I was prepping to rewire. And yes, it passed inspection easily, first time, with only a comment about a power strip I left plugged in downstairs. Properly soldered, that would work. If you know how to do that, great. But if anyone thinks a solder joint is "good" because it looks nice and shiny and smooth, then go back to school because that wire nut's going to loosen up. Not many electricians know how to solder a joint that would accept a wire nut reliably (or any other similar fastening metod), and it would also require the metal spring type wire nut to be reliable. Something has to penetrate the solder coat to put pressure on the copper, not just on the solder. It's not as easy to accomplish for the inexperienced as one may think. Then, if they do get a good solder joint, they forget to use a heat sink and the insulation melts or burns on them. Pop I wouldn't solder a connection then use a wire nut. My experience is that wire nuts are reliable when used within the manufacturer's range of wire combinations. And they have not been tested on soldered connections. Twisted solid wire that is mechanically secure and then soldered was the standard method for making connections for many years before wire nuts. I have seen only 2 failed joints, both because the solder did not bond to one wire. As far as I know that is still NEC acceptable (but I wouldn't advocate doing it). The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. bud-- |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Toller" wrote in message ... "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Long Ranger" wrote in message k.net... : : "Toller" wrote in message : ... : : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message : ... : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : Gave us: : : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure : connection. : : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : prohibition...) : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. : : : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Pop" wrote in message news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02... "Long Ranger" wrote in message k.net... : : "Toller" wrote in message : ... : : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message : ... : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : Gave us: : : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure : connection. : : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : prohibition...) : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. : : : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended to agree with it. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Long Ranger" wrote in message k.net... "Toller" wrote in message ... "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. Wouldn't a pressure connection conform to the flatter shape just as well, once the solder melted? The ones I am familiar with use a spring action for the pressure. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) A gas tight crimped fitting doesn't need solder, or pass standards with solder added either. My standard is likely a mil standard, though I would think it is in the NEC as well. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:38:26 GMT, "Long Ranger"
Gave us: It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. It doesn't even have to get hot. Solder "creeps", period. It creeps faster under pressure stress. That is the nature of soft metals. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop Absolutely not. Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any compression type connection. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
Gave us: "Pop" wrote in message news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02... "Long Ranger" wrote in message k.net... : : "Toller" wrote in message : ... : : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message : ... : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : Gave us: : : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure : connection. : : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : prohibition...) : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. : : : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended to agree with it. Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:30:08 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:
"Long Ranger" wrote in message nk.net... "Toller" wrote in message ... "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. Wouldn't a pressure connection conform to the flatter shape just as well, once the solder melted? The ones I am familiar with use a spring action for the pressure. What happens is that even after making a nice tight compression connection on a stranded wire that has been "tinned", one will find that even after a few hours, the pressure on the wire is reduced. Solder is a soft alloy. It "creeps". There is no way around it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_%28deformation%29 |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:38:26 GMT, "Long Ranger" Gave us: It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector. It doesn't even have to get hot. Solder "creeps", period. It creeps faster under pressure stress. That is the nature of soft metals. Well there you have it then. When I said it was debatable I meant that there were quite a few in my experience that think tinning is the be-all, and end-all for copper connections under any circumstance. I have often argued against it, and I wasn't even cognizant of the "creep" phenomena until now. I had a boss for quite a few years that swore by it, and even tinned 250KCM generator leads in a pot of melted solder. Those were sure fun. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded
wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets). However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these: http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually made to work with normal pliers. Thanks, Harry |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger" : Gave us: : : : "Pop" wrote in message : news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02... : : "Long Ranger" wrote in message : k.net... : : : : "Toller" wrote in message : : ... : : : : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in : message : : ... : : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : : : Gave us: : : : : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire : in a pressure : : connection. : : : : : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : : : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : : prohibition...) : : : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The : solder is : : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it : gets loose. You : : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the : connector. : : : : : : : : : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : than a written rule? : : Pop : : Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended : to agree with it. : : : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice. If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt wise, you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can only be decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a specific case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes depend on the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in turn makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the rules and regulations. Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" : Gave us: : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : than a written rule? : : Pop : : Absolutely not. : : Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any : compression type connection. You obviously don't know what "interpretation" means w/r to rules & regs. Interpretation by different authorized people are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same question when it's answered from the rules & regs. If you really know mil-specs, then you know that. So ... stop playing semantics or stop being silly. Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message ups.com... : OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded : wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets). : However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work : better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these: : : http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg : : And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I : just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be : done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually : made to work with normal pliers. : : Thanks, : Harry : IMO, all the same problems will still be present, even more-so, since with that, there is no J or shepherd's hook to help hold the wire in place. If you can't cut/restrip the wires, FWIW, I think I'd simply pick up a cheap solder-sucker (spring type, not squeeze-bulb), and clean as much solder off as possible. Then using a moistened cloth, heat/remove the rest of the tin coat as much as possible and put it back under the screws. Watch out for melting the insulation! The idea is to remove as much of the contact area solder as possible. Wrap it on the screws & thightten. Info is provided "as is" and with no guarantee of being acceptable or functional. Personally, I'd cut/restrip the wires - and use a crimp-on sized/made for the wires for connection. At the moment, that soundss easiest/best to me, at least. Pop |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On 3 Feb 2006 06:34:48 -0800, "Harry Muscle"
Gave us: OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets). However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these: http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually made to work with normal pliers. Thanks, Harry Crimp terminals are designed to work on stranded wire without a solder backfill or pre-tinned wire of any kind. Of course this does not include wires manufactured with tinned strands. The bundle of wire needs to be a bundle where all the strands are NOT melded together. The whole key to a gas tight crimped fitting relies on this form of malleability. This is why crimping onto a single solid strand is less reliable from the industry's POV. AFAIR that is a mil spec. There are several reasons. One is that 8 out of ten solderers has very cursory skills at it. It is hard enough getting them to solder a standard through hole lead in place correctly. That is why mil spec has such numerous inspection steps. When tinning the end of a stranded wire, the entire "hot" portion of the operation only lasts a couple seconds. If one tins for too long, or at too hot a temperature, the solder leaches (see capillary attraction) up the wire, stiffening the wire over a half an inch up its length. It requires long learned repetitive skills to tin properly, and the first person in here that trivializes it is one of the eight out of ten, I guarantee it. Another reason is, of course, solder creep. Adding solder to a crimped connector AFTER it has been placed on the wire is the least mutative, most integrated method, but it is still unacceptable, IIRC. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issuesor break any codes?
Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message . .. On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) A gas tight crimped fitting doesn't need solder, or pass standards with solder added either. My standard is likely a mil standard, though I would think it is in the NEC as well. Care to quote chapter and verse? -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger" : Gave us: : : : "Pop" wrote in message : news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02... : : "Long Ranger" wrote in message : k.net... : : : : "Toller" wrote in message : : ... : : : : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in : message : : ... : : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- : : : Gave us: : : : : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire : in a pressure : : connection. : : : : : : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. : : : : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? : : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this : : prohibition...) : : : : It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The : solder is : : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it : gets loose. You : : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the : connector. : : : : : : : : : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : than a written rule? : : Pop : : Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended : to agree with it. : : : Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice. If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt wise, you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can only be decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a specific case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes depend on the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in turn makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an "acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the rules and regulations. Pop Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion into a crimped connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been acceptable. There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the military and NEC standards and practices. It is NOT about any form of "inspector's interpretation". The electronics industry, above all, is not of that nature either. The guidelines have been set for years and the differences between military, industrial and commercial practice are not all that varied, yet they are concise enough to make your statement false. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:00:37 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" : Gave us: : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather : than a written rule? : : Pop : : Absolutely not. : : Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any : compression type connection. You obviously don't know what "interpretation" means w/r to rules & regs. You obviously do not know the difference between rules and regulations which people have the ability to "interpret" and rules and regulations which are set in stone, and not open to "interpretation". ANY inspector that thinks that it is HIS or HER duly "authorized" right to bend, meld or "interpret" the rules is an idiot that doesn't know how to ASK his superior for an answer when he or she gets stuck on an issue. ALL circumstances in the industry are covered, and NONE of them are mutable through individual interpretation and ANY inspector that thinks they are is not now, nor never was a real inspector. Interpretation by different authorized" people are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same question Actually, that should read: "stupidity by different promoted past their level of competency twits are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same question..." when it's answered from the rules & regs. If you really know mil-specs, then you know that. "If you really know mil specs" then you'd know that that is not true in any way shape or form. NOTHING is left open to interpretation, by inspectors or otherwise. So ... stop playing semantics or stop being silly. Grow the **** up, grandpa. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:09:55 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: Info is provided "as is" and with no guarantee of being acceptable or functional. That is the first correct thing you have said, and that only because it is about what YOU said. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:38:28 +0000, Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" Gave us: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop Absolutely not. Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any compression type connection. Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: crimping the connection, and THEN soldering it? TTYL |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
Could someone provide a link to a picture of what I should be using ...
ie: what the crimp-on connector looks like? Thanks, Harry |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
My question has actually nothing to do with aluminum wiring ... it's
just the research I've been doing on aluminum wiring that made me wonder about solder and copper wiring. Sorry if that confused anyone. Thanks, Harry |
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