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Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:22:28 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: That's a good idea. Not necessarily. The problem of lost contact area is assuaged somewhat by the fact of coating the wire and the terminal with solder. Crimped connections using the proper wire size, and connector do not "lose contact area". Other problems inside the connection are negated. What problems? Done correctly, the area of contact is gas tight. That still does not negate the fact that it is outside the spec for the terminal lug to add solder to it. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 13:56:21 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: "Harry Muscle" wrote in message roups.com... Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? Thanks for any info you share, Harry Copper wires melt at a higher temperature to any solde you may use. Bull**** Copper has a higher melt point temperature than any solder you may use. You MIGHT have been attempting to refer to the insulation on SOME types of wire. If so, you failed miserably. Good jump, paradoxical, but good. Musta made a whole six foot by now!! If there is a lot of heat generated in the circuitry you could melt the solder. Odd statement there. If there is that much heat generated at a connection node, the wiring installation has much more deeper seated problems than melted solder. Agreed. Possibly bad design, hence design for terminals and build them correctly. The orders of magnitude of *linear* expansion of the metals you refer to Aluminium (pure) alpha = 23*10^-6 (20 at 200K, 23.2 at 300K, 24.9 at 400K, 26.4 at 500K, 28.3 600, 33.8 at 800K you could graph it from that) Copper (pure) alpha = 13.7 *10^-6 (15.1 at 200K, 16.8, 17.7, 18.3, 18.9, 20 at 800K) per deltaKelvin. melting point Al= 933K, Cu=1356. if you find the data for the solder you use you can calculate your expansion characteristics (absolute and relative) and also check to see if your solder will melt. Jeez, you are so far off base. It is truly pathetic. Solder creep has to do with physical, mechanical stress, not temperature. Using the data for the thermo-electric effects and the dimensions of the lines inquestion you cna calculate the heat evolved by the current in the lines, terminals and all. The heat in ANY properly installed circuit will never reach the melting point of ANY metal used in the industry. If you design with inherent flaws and then install it it'll be flawed. Period. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:28:48 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of the strands, how the electricity actually *moves* then the concept begins to open up. Electricity travels on the surface of the circuitry. No, it does not. High frequency AC current moves the travel toward the surface, but low frequency AC and DC does not. For wires the area of travel is the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Where are you getting this crap? Skin depth at 60Hz is huge. Adding solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the terminal rather than tin the strands you change the surface area of the wire and hence the physical characteristics of the cable. You are trying to get too deep into a mechanical structure here. The term "blob" also has little technical depth. The tinning action of a metal by tin lead solder is called "wetting". The "blob" you refer to would be called a "dry solder joint" where the wetting action failed to take place. Still a rather inappropriate term to use here. Wetting itself is the result of the action of the solder flux. It de-oxidizes the metals on the surfaces involved, and allows the molten solder to make a cohesive "inter-metallic" bond with them. The wetting action then works by the physical mechanism known as "capillary attraction". The surface tension of the molten solder alloy gives the final solder joint its shape. Any REAL soldering personage can tell by the appearance of this finished solder joint whether or not it was done properly. The REAL soldering inspector can tell at a mere glance. So, even the use of the term "coating" in the topic header is incorrect. It leans toward the description of a failed solder joint. A good solder joint has an integrated appearance. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:47:54 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: Bull****. The only true understanding is a true interpretation. Corinthians 2:36 Technical specifications ARE understood, HAVE been laid out, and ARE NO LONGER open to negotiation after they have been set forth. AT least not by some lame inspector. That IS the interpretation. Trying to mute them while in the position of an inspector is one of the most retarded behaviors in the industry, and shows said inspector to be of less understanding than his position dictates. In other words, he was promoted beyond his level of competency. All statutes are open for interpretation, a judge in court interprets the statute when he passes judgement, he can do no more. Very people oriented... how nice. The same is NOT true for scientific and technical specifications. Try to pull that bull**** in the pharmaceutical industry or the chemical industry.. you won't have a job for a very long time. Shame the same doesn't hold true in electronics. There would be a better understanding among pros and lay persons if it were. It's the only due reason I give to politicians who wish to change the present law if it is old but correct. Why is it legal to make U-turns in some states, but not others? Politicians are basically very lame when it comes to actually knowing about the technical aspects of what they are in control of. Old English language is more difficult for the lay person to interpret and hence to understand than modern language. No ****. Especially with all these mosh pit, pants down past their ass, uneducated punks we have in the world today. But then we are not all of the same intellect, patience or will. Abso-****ing-lutely true. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:28:48 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: If you *get inside* a soldered or tinned end and think of the strands, how the electricity actually *moves* then the concept begins to open up. Electricity travels on the surface of the circuitry. No, it does not. High frequency AC current moves the travel toward the surface, but low frequency AC and DC does not. For wires the area of travel is the surface area of the cable, Length*Pi*diameter. Where are you getting this crap? Skin depth at 60Hz is huge. Adding solder changes the surface areas and if you blob the terminal rather than tin the strands you change the surface area of the wire and hence the physical characteristics of the cable. You are trying to get too deep into a mechanical structure here. The term "blob" also has little technical depth. The tinning action of a metal by tin lead solder is called "wetting". The "blob" you refer to would be called a "dry solder joint" where the wetting action failed to take place. Still a rather inappropriate term to use here. Wetting itself is the result of the action of the solder flux. It de-oxidizes the metals on the surfaces involved, and allows the molten solder to make a cohesive "inter-metallic" bond with them. The wetting action then works by the physical mechanism known as "capillary attraction". The surface tension of the molten solder alloy gives the final solder joint its shape. Any REAL soldering personage can tell by the appearance of this finished solder joint whether or not it was done properly. The REAL soldering inspector can tell at a mere glance. So, even the use of the term "coating" in the topic header is incorrect. It leans toward the description of a failed solder joint. A good solder joint has an integrated appearance. But reduced area for the electricity to run along all the same. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:02:55 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: My apologies 2 corinthians chapter 3 line 6. "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit:for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." http://www.bible-sermons.org.uk/bible/2-Corinthians_3/ There is a big difference between words that surround the laws and actions of people, and the words, laws, and technical specifications of a scientific standard. You do not get to mix the two. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:17:30 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: You have bored me stupid. Should I give a fat flying **** about your condition? |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:47:54 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Bull****. The only true understanding is a true interpretation. Corinthians 2:36 Technical specifications ARE understood, HAVE been laid out, and ARE NO LONGER open to negotiation after they have been set forth. AT least not by some lame inspector. That IS the interpretation. Trying to mute them while in the position of an inspector is one of the most retarded behaviors in the industry, and shows said inspector to be of less understanding than his position dictates. In other words, he was promoted beyond his level of competency. All statutes are open for interpretation, a judge in court interprets the statute when he passes judgement, he can do no more. Very people oriented... how nice. The same is NOT true for scientific and technical specifications. Try to pull that bull**** in the pharmaceutical industry or the chemical industry.. you won't have a job for a very long time. Shame the same doesn't hold true in electronics. There would be a better understanding among pros and lay persons if it were. It's the only due reason I give to politicians who wish to change the present law if it is old but correct. Why is it legal to make U-turns in some states, but not others? Politicians are basically very lame when it comes to actually knowing about the technical aspects of what they are in control of. Old English language is more difficult for the lay person to interpret and hence to understand than modern language. No ****. Especially with all these mosh pit, pants down past their ass, uneducated punks we have in the world today. But then we are not all of the same intellect, patience or will. Abso-****ing-lutely true. LMAO I'm not an inspector, I see your point about regs, this is a wire, it melts at xx degrees etc. don't use it with an electrolytic connection etc. Science IS science, law is law. and scientific law is, well, a bit complex! |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:58:26 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public Including you, with your "I crossed this to yada yada yada group, where you quoted the entire 110 line post... again. If you want to be so conformal, why don't you learn a little about this forum called Usenet that you have decided to invade? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly not any better than anyone you deride here. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:58:26 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message . .. On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public Including you, with your "I crossed this to yada yada yada group, where you quoted the entire 110 line post... again. If you want to be so conformal, why don't you learn a little about this forum called Usenet that you have decided to invade? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly not any better than anyone you deride here. It was a totally relevant cross posting, why you didn't reply with what you said earlier is beyond me, it'd maybe educate any wannaba lawyers in there some. Anyway if I carry on like this I'll be more of a hypocrite than I laready am. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Billy H" m wrote in message ... "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:58:26 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public Including you, with your "I crossed this to yada yada yada group, where you quoted the entire 110 line post... again. If you want to be so conformal, why don't you learn a little about this forum called Usenet that you have decided to invade? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly not any better than anyone you deride here. It was a totally relevant cross posting, why you didn't reply with what you said earlier is beyond me, it'd maybe educate any wannaba lawyers in there some. Anyway if I carry on like this I'll be more of a hypocrite than I laready am. Just for the record, that was a form of apology for cross posting your message. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
....
: : Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly : not any better than anyone you deride here. Well, I dunno 'bout that: if you're included, then he's certainly better than you, that's a given. Fuchsy is a closed mind with a large bowel, I'm afraid. Nuff said |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 00:08:07 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: ... : : Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly : not any better than anyone you deride here. Well, I dunno 'bout that: if you're included, then he's certainly better than you, that's a given. Fuchsy is a closed mind with a large bowel, I'm afraid. Nuff said Problem is, you haven't said a damned thing, **** mouth. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:27:37 +0000, Billy H wrote:
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:58:26 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public Including you, with your "I crossed this to yada yada yada group, where you quoted the entire 110 line post... again. If you want to be so conformal, why don't you learn a little about this forum called Usenet that you have decided to invade? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-post http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt Otherwise, you aren't any better than anyone else, and particularly not any better than anyone you deride here. It was a totally relevant cross posting, why you didn't reply with what you said earlier is beyond me, it'd maybe educate any wannaba lawyers in there some. Anyway if I carry on like this I'll be more of a hypocrite than I laready am. Ignore Fuchs. If you challenge his "perfection" he'll simply slither away and you'll feel dirty in the morning. -- Keith |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:55 -0500, Keith Gave us:
Ignore Fuchs. If you challenge his "perfection" he'll simply slither away and you'll feel dirty in the morning. Unlike yourself. You ARE dirty every morning, noon, and night. Your stalking baby bull**** proves it. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 02:18:51 +0000, Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:03:55 -0500, Keith Gave us: Ignore Fuchs. If you challenge his "perfection" he'll simply slither away and you'll feel dirty in the morning. Unlike yourself. You ARE dirty every morning, noon, and night. Nope, I always take a shower after trying to teach you something about engineering. Actually I don't care a **** for you, but others deserve better. Your stalking baby bull**** proves it. Stalking? You are some fuk'n pot. -- Keith |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
LAR DEE ****IN DAR
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Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:45:46 -0000, "Billy H"
m Gave us: LAR DEE ****IN DAR That would be: La Di Dah Lar dee dar is from the movie "Blazing Saddles" Does the "H" stand for "Hill"? as in Hillbilly... |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
Harry Muscle wrote:
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? Thanks for any info you share, Harry Before I retired I was an electronics design Engineer. I remember one time I ran into a situation where I was wondering if the wires ought to be soldiered before being placed into a connector. I checked with both the vendor (probably Molex) and our manufacturing department. I remember the answer was a resounding NO. You never soldier wires that are going to be placed in a connector. However, sometime around 1980, after I had just moved into the house I'm in now, I had a problem with a three-way switch that didn't work in my basement and the basement was completely sheet rocked. The previous owner/amateur electrician had fouled up on the wiring. A couple of years later, I had to remove the sheet rock underneath a cold air return to facilitate the addition of a new room and I was able to fish some wire through the ceiling and fix the problem. However, this necessitated a connection that would be covered by sheet rock (no lectures please). So I put the wires in an electrical box and twisted them and put a light coat of soldier on them. Then I put wire nuts on top of that. That was 25 years ago and I have never had any problems. In regard to aluminum house wiring (single-strand), aluminum wiring is very dangerous when used inside of a house. It's one of the easiest way I can think of to get your house burned down. Putting copper and aluminum together causes a corrosive chemical reaction. It's use should be restricted to service entrance wires only and even then you should double check to make sure the connector is marked for aluminum. As I recall, these special connectors are marked "AL/CU". If you happen to be unfortunate enough to have single-strand aluminum wire inside your house, then you need to make sure that all of the connectors (switches and outlets) are marked "AL/CU". These special switches and outlets are relatively expensive. If you need to connect an aluminum wire and copper wire together, there are special wire nuts available for doing that (also expensive). There is also some antioxidant cream available that you can use for copper/aluminum connections. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
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Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
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Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
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Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:45:46 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: LAR DEE ****IN DAR That would be: La Di Dah Lar dee dar is from the movie "Blazing Saddles" Does the "H" stand for "Hill"? as in Hillbilly... No It is Russian. Noshart is it's pronunciation. Means 'one who shakes the sphere.' |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" wrote:
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112 Conductor joints and splices (1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or spices in insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall first be made mechanically and electrically secure. Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors (1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by wire-binding terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the strands confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause either short-circuits or grounds. My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the strands! |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:05:19 -0500, not i Gave us:
This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112 Conductor joints and splices (1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or spices in insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall first be made mechanically and electrically secure. Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors (1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by wire-binding terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the strands confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause either short-circuits or grounds. My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the strands! What part of "Unless made with solderless wire connectors" do you not understand? http://m-w.com/dictionary/unless The remark about exposed strands is so that assemblers and inspectors can keep vigilant about making sure that their strip lengths and insertion depths are kept tightly spec'd when using crimp style connectors. http://m-w.com/dictionary/confined It isn't something you "interpret". It IS something where you follow the instructions given you by an inspector that DOES know what is going on. You obviously do not. Sometimes I think that some of you "interpret" people need to be "confined" so that there will be no stray bull**** spewed into a technical newsgroup. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 02:57:22 GMT, "Long Ranger" Gave us: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message .. . On 3 Feb 2006 11:35:47 -0800, "Harry Muscle" Screw terminals that have a "captivated" screw need a "spade lug" used on them. By far my favorite line from this knave. Bugger off, troll dip****! Hey Dark Matter, You sure told him! |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message .. . In article . com, "Harry Muscle" writes: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin. I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style. I am in the industrial controls business and work with stranded wire extensively, especially finely stranded wire in challenging environments. It is almost pervasively common that manufacturers supply equipment with the wire ends dipped in solder, I have never seen those loosen to any degree more than non soldered ends, the soldered ends seem to be much more reliable and preferred. Thats after 40 years in the business across a broad spectrum of industrial applications, nuclear, petrochemical, semiconductor, food and marine applications.... including DDC applications. Crimp connectors also work. they are less reliable than factory or field soldered ends under a screw in marine or industrial corrosive environments however. Phil Scott -- Andrew Gabriel |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"repatch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:38:28 +0000, Roy L. Fuchs wrote: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" Gave us: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a written rule? Pop Absolutely not. Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any compression type connection. Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: crimping the connection, and THEN soldering it? that would be good, especially in a corrosive environment. RE the govt training courses on the issue, one of the primary features one notices with government is incompetence, followed closely by insanity and bad practices. Thank god very few industrial controls manufacturers adopt such loopy practices. Phil Scott TTYL |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:10:49 -0800, "Phil Scott"
Gave us: that would be good, especially in a corrosive environment. RE the govt training courses on the issue, one of the primary features one notices with government is incompetence, followed closely by insanity and bad practices. Thank god very few industrial controls manufacturers adopt such loopy practices. I suggest that you contact AMP or MOLEX and ask them. Your remarks about the military show a lack of knowledge as well. |
OT: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Phil Scott" wrote in message ... : : "repatch" wrote in message : ... : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:38:28 +0000, Roy L. Fuchs wrote: : : On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" : Gave : us: : : In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS : rather than a : written rule? : : Pop : : Absolutely not. : : Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad : practice for any : compression type connection. : : Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: : crimping the : connection, and THEN soldering it? : : that would be good, especially in a corrosive environment. : : RE the govt training courses on the issue, one of the primary : features one notices with government is incompetence, followed : closely by insanity and bad practices. Thank god very few : industrial controls manufacturers adopt such loopy practices. Such a blanket statement, although true in some areas, is far from true as a blanket, plus exposes the fact that you have no real familiarity with the subject at hand. Not only that, but if you think "industrial controls manufacturer" don't and haven't used things like soldering techinques and methodologies, you're going to be grossly wrong in your overal picture you're trying to paint. You, along with several others have taken a good question asked by one who only needed a simple but reliable answer and have turned it into a crapfest of who knows what about what, and very few of the comments have had any real basis in fact, let along related to the OP's quest. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:01:25 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us: You, along with several others have taken a good question asked by one who only needed a simple but reliable answer and have turned it into a crapfest of who knows what about what, and very few of the comments have had any real basis in fact, let along related to the OP's quest. You are one lost mother ****er, boy. There have been several posts which are based on FACT. Just not many if not any of yours. You deride him for his comments on the military, but you essentially said the same thing with your "open to interpretation" post. It was from that point on that YOU discontinued actually speaking on the topic, and started acting like a ****ing wussy. Go back and read the posts. There are many that have it right, and many that have it wrong, and in case you are still lost, this group is for exactly what you claim we are all doing wrong. Usenet is a crapfest and that is why your lame ass is in the barrel. And the thread is NOT off topic, dip****. I'll say it again. Crimped on, compression style connectors should NOT be soldered. Not after the connector is crimped on, nor the wire before it is inserted. Call AMP or MOLEX and they'll explain it to your ass as well. You seem to think no one in the groups here know what they are talking about. You're a goddamned loser if you think you can get away with that baby bull****. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
You might find these links interesting Roy. 220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brazed connections in those locations) Phil Scott "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:01:25 GMT, "Pop" Gave us: You, along with several others have taken a good question asked by one who only needed a simple but reliable answer and have turned it into a crapfest of who knows what about what, and very few of the comments have had any real basis in fact, let along related to the OP's quest. You are one lost mother ****er, boy. There have been several posts which are based on FACT. Just not many if not any of yours. You deride him for his comments on the military, but you essentially said the same thing with your "open to interpretation" post. It was from that point on that YOU discontinued actually speaking on the topic, and started acting like a ****ing wussy. Go back and read the posts. There are many that have it right, and many that have it wrong, and in case you are still lost, this group is for exactly what you claim we are all doing wrong. Usenet is a crapfest and that is why your lame ass is in the barrel. And the thread is NOT off topic, dip****. I'll say it again. Crimped on, compression style connectors should NOT be soldered. Not after the connector is crimped on, nor the wire before it is inserted. Call AMP or MOLEX and they'll explain it to your ass as well. You seem to think no one in the groups here know what they are talking about. You're a goddamned loser if you think you can get away with that baby bull****. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
wrote in message oups.com... First, I do not have a copy of the current Canadian Electrical Code. I would call a Provincial or local building official for a proper answer. But in the USA.... Using solder on stranded building wire used in building electrical systems is not a normal trade practice. absolutely correct in almost all applications including large commercial applications. In industrial and marine applications and of course with electronics the practice is common and on corrosive environments, necessary. here are some links 220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations) Phil Scott First, it is not economical, and secondly, there are too many different methods and materials that can be used to solder. Soldering can be more damaging than helpful if not done properly. For instance wicking can cause wires to become brittle and permit breakage. There are many alloys of solder some requiring the use of resin core others the use of acid for soldering. Soldering, in short, introduces a whole range of variables that cannot be controlled in the field. But the main reason it is not done is it simply takes too much time and is not necessary. For splicing, wire nuts are commonly used. For terminations, buy receptacles and switches that are listed for use with stranded wire. If you have to use solid wire for terminations, then attach a pigtail then wire nut the solid wire to the stranded wire. Better yet, replace the stranded wire with solid. The NEC Section requiring that the listing instructions be followed is 110.3(B). This has been in the (USA) National Electrical Code for as long as I can remember. References: From the 2005 NEC 110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling. 110.14 Electrical Connections. Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment. FPN: Many terminations and equipment are marked with a tightening torque. (A) Terminals. Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors. Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"not i" wrote in message ... On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" wrote: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message . .. On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud-- Gave us: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure connection. Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered. I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that? (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...) This is from The Canadian Electrical Code Rule 12-112 Conductor joints and splices (1) Unless made with solderless wire connectors,joints or spices in insulated conductors shall be soldered, but they shall first be made mechanically and electrically secure. Rule 12-116 Termination of conductors (1) The portion of stranded conductors to be held by wire-binding terminals or solderless wire connectors shall have the strands confined so that there will be no stray strands to cause either short-circuits or grounds. My Interpretation : Solder could be used to confine the strands! Not only correct but the only way to go in many cases... it seems most on the NG are house wiring guys and applying NEC as they see it in homes etc...but not of course in the industrial markets. .. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common. Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends. This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits. Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects. Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations. For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits. The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.) Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old) |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
wrote in message oups.com... Harry Muscle wrote: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes? I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters). The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw that it's screwed on to, etc.? Thanks for any info you share, Harry Before I retired I was an electronics design Engineer. I remember one time I ran into a situation where I was wondering if the wires ought to be soldiered before being placed into a connector. I checked with both the vendor (probably Molex) and our manufacturing department. I remember the answer was a resounding NO. You never soldier wires that are going to be placed in a connector. Correct...you do not solder wire before it goes into a crimped connector...but you do after it goes into a solder socket connector and there are crimped connectors made to be soldered as well of course. .. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common. Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends. This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits. Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects. Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations. For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits. The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.) Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old) However, sometime around 1980, after I had just moved into the house I'm in now, I had a problem with a three-way switch that didn't work in my basement and the basement was completely sheet rocked. The previous owner/amateur electrician had fouled up on the wiring. A couple of years later, I had to remove the sheet rock underneath a cold air return to facilitate the addition of a new room and I was able to fish some wire through the ceiling and fix the problem. However, this necessitated a connection that would be covered by sheet rock (no lectures please). So I put the wires in an electrical box and twisted them and put a light coat of soldier on them. Then I put wire nuts on top of that. That was 25 years ago and I have never had any problems. In regard to aluminum house wiring (single-strand), aluminum wiring is very dangerous when used inside of a house. It's one of the easiest way I can think of to get your house burned down. Putting copper and aluminum together causes a corrosive chemical reaction. It's use should be restricted to service entrance wires only and even then you should double check to make sure the connector is marked for aluminum. As I recall, these special connectors are marked "AL/CU". If you happen to be unfortunate enough to have single-strand aluminum wire inside your house, then you need to make sure that all of the connectors (switches and outlets) are marked "AL/CU". These special switches and outlets are relatively expensive. If you need to connect an aluminum wire and copper wire together, there are special wire nuts available for doing that (also expensive). There is also some antioxidant cream available that you can use for copper/aluminum connections. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:34:11 -0500, Keith Gave us: Of course not. It's *his* standard. .. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common. Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends. This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits. Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects. Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations. For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits. The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.) .. 220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations) Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old) You're a ****ing retard, boy. |
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder cause any issues or break any codes?
"Billy H" m wrote in message ... "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message ... On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:25:43 -0000, "Billy H" m Gave us: Slagging matches so **** me off in usenet posting. Life is too short to be caught up reading about some fools' gripes with another in the middle of a serious discussion. Makes it sound like Parliament. Part of the reason the country is run by lawyers methinks. So ask the retarded *******s why they jumped on me for making a perfectly good, technical point. If you jump, I will jump back. That's all there is to it. And nobody apologises for making fools of themselves in public Maybe our friend Roy will. .. In corrosive environments, stranded wire will corrode into the crimmped terminal and around the wire, insulating the wire from the terminal slightly causing it to burn, then fail.. thats common. Accordingly battery cable manufacturers most often solder their wire into the crimped terminal ends. This practice is seen pervasively in marine environments on both low amperage control circuits, and on power circuits. Use of solder on power circuit terminals however has many problems, namely the solder melting out of the joint if the wire warms too much...and extrusion of the solder under compressive stress if screw connectors are used.. the military specs some are referring to cover that aspect... but not the other aspects. Use of solder in an already crimped terminal serves to increase the electrical contact area, thats good, and to preclude corrosive gases, vapors and oils from the joint (by wicking up the bare wire).... that is seen commonly be the cause of failure in those situations. For the last 100 years... and currently.... most if not all controls systems and component manufacturers dip wire ends in solder that are to be fit under screw head connectors... the practice is at least 90% common.... thats with *control circuits. The practice is not common with power circuits for the reasons mentioned but is still seen in some situations (primarily corrosive environments... anyone can purchase NEC approved soldered connectors of course for those purposes... those are also pervasively common, especially in the electronics industry.) .. 220,000 hits... lots of good articles on the first page. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search There is a time and a place to solder crimped or non crimped terminals and bare wire ends to be fit under a screw head.... and a time when that is not a good idea (hot running situations, although Ive seen pure silver or brassed connections in those locations) Phil Scott Mechanical/ Electrical engineer and industrial controls contractor since 1852 (I'm very old) |
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