"RicodJour" wrote
Don wrote:
"Bill" wrote
You shouldn't hiring techs. You should be hiring licensed contractors.

Most moaners problems stem from hiring the unqualified.

Licensure in no way insures competency.

But the odds are higher that an unlicensed person is incompetent or
cutting corners in other areas.

Nothing like a guess to solidify your argument.

But hey. You get
what you pay for.

Actually, if you hire someone that has paid ransom to the state (you call
it
licensure) you are getting a little less.

Or you may be paying a bit more., but it's not wasted money.

Its really none of your business what other people waste their money on, is
it?

All most of us here in the newgroup have to judge him by are his
assinine comments. The oh-so-clever changing of "home-owner" to
"home-moaner" is just one example of it (I'm sure others use this as
well, but I've noticed his posts have this more frequently than
others). If he truly is a HVAC professional, I would guess that these
"moaners" provide him with a fair portion of his income (perhaps all of
it if he doesn't do commercial or industrial work). So tell me what
you think of a person who bites the hand that feeds them? Perhaps Paul
is good at his work, and he may even be an alright guy when talking to
him in person, but when he's online flexing his keyboard he comes
across as a jerk.

Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
Exactly. Licensing is cheap. If a guy is skimping on that, what else
is he skimping on?

Licensed contractors don't skimp?

Depends on the contractor. You honestly don't believe that someone who
is breaking some of the rules isn't breaking others? If the guy is
unlicensed where else is he going to cut corners? I certainly wouldn't
want to find out on my house.

You still have to do your due diligence in investigating someone before
you hire them - references, check with BBB and contractor licensing,
etc. If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

R

Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
Don wrote:
"Bill" wrote
You shouldn't hiring techs. You should be hiring licensed contractors.

Most moaners problems stem from hiring the unqualified.

Licensure in no way insures competency.

But the odds are higher that an unlicensed person is incompetent or
cutting corners in other areas.

Nothing like a guess to solidify your argument.

That's why they're called odds.
1. The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the
probability of its not occurring.
2. The likelihood of the occurrence of one thing rather than the
occurrence of another thing, as in a contest:

But hey. You get
what you pay for.

Actually, if you hire someone that has paid ransom to the state (you call
it
licensure) you are getting a little less.

Or you may be paying a bit more, but it's not wasted money.

Its really none of your business what other people waste their money on, is
it?

You consider it a waste because of your personal experiences with your
licensing. That's a reactionary viewpoint, albeit an understandable
one. You consider yourself an exception to most rules, so why wouldn't
you believe that you'd be the exception to the unlicensed? You
wouldn't get licensed if you could avoid it on general principle and
your antipathy to any form of government. Other people do it because
they're cheap/crooks/don't-want-to-be-accountable/can't.

I don't consider it a waste because I don't like seeing people hurt -
even people I don't know. Do you?

It's kind of like panties. If all of a sudden the dresser drawer is
full of new sexy panties (and they're not yours there just _might_
be something going on there. It's a warning sign. Unlicensed is a
warning sign for contractors. It might be nothing, but you'd be a fool
to not heed the warning.

R

On 7 Dec 2005 09:13:14 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:

That's why they're called odds.
1. The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the
probability of its not occurring.
2. The likelihood of the occurrence of one thing rather than the
occurrence of another thing, as in a contest:

I thought it was to distinguish them from 'evens' ...

It's kind of like panties. If all of a sudden the dresser drawer is
full of new sexy panties (and they're not yours there just _might_
be something going on there. It's a warning sign. Unlicensed is a

What if they ARE mine ?

Can a guy get a little privacy around here????


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

louie wrote:
All most of us here in the newgroup have to judge him by are his
assinine comments. The oh-so-clever changing of "home-owner" to
"home-moaner" is just one example of it (I'm sure others use this as
well, but I've noticed his posts have this more frequently than
others). If he truly is a HVAC professional, I would guess that these
"moaners" provide him with a fair portion of his income (perhaps all of
it if he doesn't do commercial or industrial work). So tell me what
you think of a person who bites the hand that feeds them? Perhaps Paul
is good at his work, and he may even be an alright guy when talking to
him in person, but when he's online flexing his keyboard he comes
across as a jerk.

He doesn't work for homeowners. That's the curious part and why I
asked at the beginning of the thread how come he was suddenly
interested in their welfare after years of abusing them.

It's the usual situation. Someone with an inferiority complex picks
their own little area of expertise and extrapolates that to "prove"
their superiority to themselves. Doesn't work, but let him have his
illusions.

R

Oscar_Lives wrote:
"Tim Killian" wrote in message
. ..
Bill wrote:
In article ,
Tim Killian wrote:


Yeah sure, whatever. The whiny HVAC "techs" will continue to fight their
losing battle against the day A/C installs are as simple as plugging in a
toaster. I know a number of folks who successfully installed mini-splits,
and the day is coming when the larger stuff will be plug-n-play too.

The HVAC industry only has itself to blame as their ranks are full of
no-account, lazy, dumb-ass techs who charge full fare for sub-standard
work. They act like carrying a hose set entitles them to neurosurgeon
pay, when many can't multiply 12x12 in their head!


And if I had a dollar for every moaner who has told the story of having
someone other than a legit contractor do it because it was a dollar
cheaper....

You shouldn't hiring techs. You should be hiring licensed contractors.

Most moaners problems stem from hiring the unqualified. But hey. You get
what you pay for.


Oh yes, the "licensed, insured" contractor. You must mean the guys who
have a salesman in the office and and a girl who actually answers their
phones? I've dealt with their ilk on several occasions and they seem to
have the same dumb asses working for them as well. Ex.: A $6K heat pump
system they installed stops working after two weeks, so they send out Mr.
Earring. Earring boy replaces a circuit board, the same one, 4 times over
a two week period, and then tells me that my attic is too hot, and they're
not going to replace it under warranty again. I call Mr. Fatass, the owner
of HVAC Supremo and tell him that he needs to send out a competent tech,
one who at least finished high school. They send out their "best man" and
he determines the problem is a short in some god damned outside wiring. He
is gracious enough to apologize for my lost time, and admits that half the
guys in his shop are total ****-ups.

So maybe I'm one of those "home-moaners" who expects to get what they paid
for. Pardon the hell out of me, Mr. HVAC asshole.


Earring boy has cousins who work here, too. One is a mechanic down at the
Ford garage where I get my truck worked on. Another works at the HVAC
company that services my equipment. Several of them work at restaurants
around here. One earring boy cousin works down at the carwash and smears
the windows for each of the customers.

****ing earring boy's family! Those assholes should not be allowed to
reproduce. That is about the only thing they can do well.

Back in the dawn time, when I first got cable TV, the initial install
did not work and I had to go through 8 different visits by techs before
somebody noticed that Mr. Initial Installer had put a staple through
the cable up high on the side of the house. That's when the light first
dawned in my head regarding the technical sophistication of such
endeavors.....

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

On 7 Dec 2005 09:13:14 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:

That's why they're called odds.
1. The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the
probability of its not occurring.
2. The likelihood of the occurrence of one thing rather than the
occurrence of another thing, as in a contest:

I thought it was to distinguish them from 'evens' ...

It's kind of like panties. If all of a sudden the dresser drawer is
full of new sexy panties (and they're not yours there just _might_
be something going on there. It's a warning sign. Unlicensed is a

What if they ARE mine ?

Can a guy get a little privacy around here????


Ohhhh, don't get your panties in a wad...

--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie

"RicodJour" wrote
I don't consider it a waste because I don't like seeing people hurt -
even people I don't know. Do you?

Oh dear.
Now licensure prevents harm.
I can't wait to see whats next.

"RicodJour" wrote
If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

One day you were unlicensed, uneducated and inexperienced.
Then you plopped your ransom on the counter and magically you were educated,
experienced and LICENSED!
Please Rico, you can do better than that, I know you can.

"z" wrote
Back in the dawn time, when I first got cable TV, the initial install
did not work and I had to go through 8 different visits by techs before
somebody noticed that Mr. Initial Installer had put a staple through
the cable up high on the side of the house. That's when the light first
dawned in my head regarding the technical sophistication of such
endeavors.....

Drop in on any residential jobsite these days and observe what the
subcontractors believe to be quality service.
Its appalling.
These folks that are claiming licensure is some sort of quality standard are
blowhards with questionable integrity right from jump.
Education and experience are whats required, not a ransom note tacked on the
wall somewhere.

Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

One day you were unlicensed, uneducated and inexperienced.

True.

Then you plopped your ransom on the counter and magically you were educated,
experienced and LICENSED!

You've got the timeline wrong. I was educated, got experience working
for others, learned I needed to be licensed and insured to do business
and did just that.

Please Rico, you can do better than that, I know you can.

I believe that licensing doesn't guaranty problem-free contracting, and
I also believe that unlicensed contractors are breaking the law,
cutting corners and a risk that most people don't need to take. My
question to you Don: You don't believe licensing is either necessary
nor moral, yet you're licensed, why?

R

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 03:34:53 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"RicodJour" wrote
If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

One day you were unlicensed, uneducated and inexperienced.
Then you plopped your ransom on the counter and magically you were educated,
experienced and LICENSED!
Please Rico, you can do better than that, I know you can.


The Venn diagram is two concentric circles. The outer one
is corner-cutting, unreliable hacks. The inner one is
liscenced and insured tradesmen.

Goedjn wrote:

The Venn diagram is two concentric circles. The outer one
is corner-cutting, unreliable hacks. The inner one is
liscenced and insured tradesmen.

Whatchya talking about, Willis? I haven't heard something so silly
since I don't know venn.

R

Ven you Vaant to kvit vit zis vundefful schtuff?

--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
..
..


"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
Goedjn wrote:

The Venn diagram is two concentric circles. The outer one
is corner-cutting, unreliable hacks. The inner one is
liscenced and insured tradesmen.

Whatchya talking about, Willis? I haven't heard something so silly
since I don't know venn.

R

"RicodJour" wrote
Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

One day you were unlicensed, uneducated and inexperienced.

True.

Then you plopped your ransom on the counter and magically you were
educated,
experienced and LICENSED!

You've got the timeline wrong. I was educated, got experience working
for others, learned I needed to be licensed and insured to do business
and did just that.

Please Rico, you can do better than that, I know you can.

I believe that licensing doesn't guaranty problem-free contracting,

Good, we're in agreement so far.

and
I also believe that unlicensed contractors are breaking the law,

So?
Unjust laws are meant to be broken.
If there was a law against eating you'd break it.

cutting corners and a risk that most people don't need to take.

Don't get me started on people that cut corners.
Don't forget, I built a home in recent memory and am more than knowledgeable
in what licensed contractors are capable of.
Quality control by licensed contractors and their earringed on-site
employees?
Please.

My
question to you Don: You don't believe licensing is either necessary
nor moral, yet you're licensed, why?

It ain't about me Rico.
Its about your silly assed assertion that people that haven't paid ransom to
the state are inompetent and prone to error MORE so than people that have
paid the ransom.

("The day before I paid ransom I was incapable, but the day I paid ransom I
instantly became capable!")

You, and all the other asserters in this thread have failed big time to show
why your licenses make you better than people that aren't.
What you folks have done though is demonstrate in a public forum your
questionable character and your extreme fear that persons better than you
will put you out of business. Whining like little girls.
This is specifically addressed to you, Rico, in response to your attempt
above to smear me because you are unable to intelligently prove your faulty
assertion.

Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
Don wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote
If they're not licensed I don't see any reason to go any further.

One day you were unlicensed, uneducated and inexperienced.

True.

Then you plopped your ransom on the counter and magically you were
educated, experienced and LICENSED!

You've got the timeline wrong. I was educated, got experience working
for others, learned I needed to be licensed and insured to do business
and did just that.

Please Rico, you can do better than that, I know you can.

I believe that licensing doesn't guaranty problem-free contracting,

Good, we're in agreement so far.

and I also believe that unlicensed contractors are breaking the law,

So?
Unjust laws are meant to be broken.
If there was a law against eating you'd break it.

Lame analogy. If there's a lower speed limit going through a school
zone, and I know that all the kids are inside so there's no chance of
me creating a mini road pizza, I still slow down. Regulations that
don't have a majorly negative impact, but are just a little
inconvenient, are not the equivalent of forced starvation.

cutting corners and a risk that most people don't need to take.

Don't get me started on people that cut corners.
Don't forget, I built a home in recent memory and am more than knowledgeable
in what licensed contractors are capable of.
Quality control by licensed contractors and their earringed on-site
employees?
Please.

Please go back and search the newsgroup for our exchanges immediately
preceding and during the construction of your house. You might have
more respect for some of my opinions, even if they differ from yours,
from the improved vantage point of hindsight.

My question to you Don: You don't believe licensing is either necessary
nor moral, yet you're licensed, why?

It ain't about me Rico.
Its about your silly assed assertion that people that haven't paid ransom to
the state are inompetent and prone to error MORE so than people that have
paid the ransom.

("The day before I paid ransom I was incapable, but the day I paid ransom I
instantly became capable!")

You, and all the other asserters in this thread have failed big time to show
why your licenses make you better than people that aren't.
What you folks have done though is demonstrate in a public forum your
questionable character and your extreme fear that persons better than you
will put you out of business. Whining like little girls.

Interesting. Persons better than me... I don't look at it like that,
but let's work with it. The license doesn't make someone a better
contractor automatically - you're just playing word games with that.
But not having a license in an area that requires contractor licensing
does make someone worse. Someone may have the most awe inspiring grasp
of construction ever contained in one brain, but there's much more to
contracting than just knowledge of construction. It's a business. How
many skilled tradesmen do you think start up construction companies of
one sort or another, only to find out that the business end of the
business is eating them alive? They hate the paperwork, dealing with
customers, filing for permits, insurance, etc. You honestly believe
that person is a better contractor? I don't - I consider them a better
craftsman, maybe, but definitely not a better contractor.

Can it be conclusively proven that licensing improves the quality of
the available contractor pool? Maybe, maybe not - but there can be
little doubt that someone that is willing to ignore some regualtions
that are inconvenient for them are more likely to ignore other things
as well. Which areas of contracting do you feel are okay to ignore?

Licensing is not a panacea, but it is a starting point. Until the day
where there is an equivalent of an eBay-type feedback mechanism in
everything, how are people to determine the wheat from the chaff? I'm
not just talking just about contractors, but doctors, accountants, and
businesses of all types.

This is specifically addressed to you, Rico, in response to your attempt
above to smear me because you are unable to intelligently prove your faulty
assertion.

You're taking this way too personally, but that's up to you. There's
no attempt to smear, just calling you on a question. Which still
stands.

R