Very interesting, but what is a phase converter used for?
Since this is alt.home.repair, do I need a 10 hp phase converter?
Just puzzled
:-)

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"Ignoramus23077" wrote in message
...
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

Many pictures and the story in several chapters:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

Here's the copy and paste of the text from the webpage:

MAIN PAGE

This text details how I made a 10 horsepower rotary phase converter
from $45 worth of parts that I bought from an industrial junkyard
gloriously called Pioneer Industrial Services.

At some point, after reading rec.crafts.metalworking and this
excellent article on making homemade phase converters, I became
excited about the idea of making a rotary phase converter from second
hand parts.

I spent about an hour calling around and finally found a guy Dave from
Pioneer Industrial Services, who said that he had used 3 phase
motors. He has a junkyard full of used electrical components. Here's
what I bought, and for how much.

The nice surprise was that the 10 HP motor was possible for me to
manhandle alone.

My first prototype was a simple setup with no switch at all, I simply
touched the wires to the 240V pieces of the subpanel. Click here to
see and read about the first prototype. It sucked and took a long time
to spin up, due to poor contacts. It was atrocious.

My second prototype included installation of a 50 amp circuit breaker
into the panel, hard wiring of the wires to the breaker, and use of a
Definite Purpose Contactor and a regular lamp switch to turn the
contactor on. Click here to see and read about the second
prototype. This works great, but is ugly and unfinished.

My future plans nclude making a nice carriage on little wheels for the
converter, and hiding all electricals inside safely.

WHAT I BOUGHT

I bought the following:

* 10 HP 3 phase Century motor - $40.
* 7.5 HP US Electrical Motors 3 phase motor - $20. I bought it
just in case.
* 30A heavy duty Square D single throw switch - $8.
* 50A Definite Purpose 3 wire normally open relay - $3.
* Five 535 V 92 mF capacitors the size of a vodka bottle - $5 for
all ($1 each).

Dave from Pioneer Industrial Services is highly recommended, he is
friendly and his proces are reasonable. I was able to pick everything
that I needed, from him. He is in Addison, IL.

FIRST PROTOTYPE

The very first try was quite simple. I spun the motor by hand and
then applied power. No capacitors. The motor was finally able to
accelerate, after much difficulty. That proved to me that it was not
"fried".

My first prototype was simply a test of the concept -- would a three
phase motor spin up like they say, if I apply capacitance between one
power leg and the generated leg?

I wired the motor as follows: two legs of 240V were connected to the
two legs of the motor. These I call Leg 1 and Leg 2. Leg 3 was
connected to Leg 1 via three capacitors wirted in parallel. You can
see that on pictures.

That made the motor spin up reliably, but slowly due to very poor
contact between my wires and the subpanel. After that, I decided to
try better wiring. See next chapter.

SECOND PROTOTYPE

Since the concept obviously worked, I now wanted to go a little bit
farther and wire it more properly.

I wired it as follows. I installed a 50 A crcuit breaker in the
subpanel. I hard wired the 8 gauge wires with one end into the
breaker, and another into the 3 pole definite purpose contactor.

The contactor is a neat thing that, when 110 V is applied to two
sensing contacts, with very little current drawn from 110v it closes
the big contacts for all three poles.

Legs 1 and 2 of utility 240V were connected to legs 1 and 2 of the
motor. Leg 1 (on the motor side, not on utility side) was ALSO
connected to one side of the capacitor bank. Leg 3 (the wild,
generated leg) of the 3 phase motor was connected to the other side of
the capacitor bank. That's how self starting phase converters should
be wired according to this excellent article on making homemade phase
converters

The converter now would spin up in less than a second. My next task
was to measure voltages between legs, which would be suggestive of the
actual degree of phase shift. The voltages were as follows: 256 V
utility, 239V, and 271V. I did not like it.

I then removed one 92 mF capacitor from the bank, leaving only two
capacitors with the total capacitance of 184 mF. The effect of this
was that instead of less than a second, the motor would spin up in
about one second. Not a big deal to me. The voltages now were as
follows: 256 V utility, 240V, and 260V. I decided that I should go
with two capacitors.

Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.

"Ignoramus23077" wrote in message
...
| thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
|
| Many pictures and the story in several chapters:
|
| http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/
|
SNIP

I don't know jack about RPC's, so I just ask this as a sounding board
for those among us who can verify my concern. Should your contactor have an
overload on it? The overload's job is to protect the equipment if an
overcurrent exists on any or all legs. In essence, it shuts all three
phases off even if one has shorted to ground. Your supplier will have some
or you can trade the contactor in for one that has it. Overloads come with
a holding contact that turns off power to the contactor if an element
overheats.
I know that current in one leg will be lower in an RPC, but as long as
it doesn't exceed the overload element's rating it will work just fine.

Yep, Carl is right about the protection considerations.

The overload protection devices aren't just to protect against the motor
developing a short to ground, they react to protect the motor from being
overloaded by a jam or machine malfunction/breakage, stalled or any other
condition that causes the current to rise to a point where the motor would
be damaged/destroyed by the resulting heat in the windings.
The OLP's heaters are selected from a chart of currents for the specific
motor being used.
Some OLPs have adjustable trip settings so that heaters don't need to be
selected.
Each type of OLP will cause all 3 phases to be opened/interrupted.

The OLPs are also available as a separate device, but are commonly
integrated into the overall starter/contactor box.

The best setup for an RPC would be a magnetic starter/OLP rated for the size
of the RPC motor, and a separate (specifically sized) starter/OLP for each
machine motor that's powered from the RPC.
Choosing not to use a second, separate OLP for the (usually) smaller machine
motor will not offer any protection for the machine motor.

WB
.................

"carl mciver" wrote in message
ink.net...

I don't know jack about RPC's, so I just ask this as a sounding board
for those among us who can verify my concern. Should your contactor have
an
overload on it? The overload's job is to protect the equipment if an
overcurrent exists on any or all legs. In essence, it shuts all three
phases off even if one has shorted to ground. Your supplier will have
some
or you can trade the contactor in for one that has it. Overloads come
with
a holding contact that turns off power to the contactor if an element
overheats.
I know that current in one leg will be lower in an RPC, but as long as
it doesn't exceed the overload element's rating it will work just fine.





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:08:51 GMT, Ignoramus23077
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:05:49 GMT, Walter R. wrote:
Very interesting, but what is a phase converter used for?
Since this is alt.home.repair, do I need a 10 hp phase converter?
Just puzzled
:-)

Let's say that you want to build a house addition. You need a table
saw. Your neighbor has a cheap 3 phase 3 HP powermatic table saw for
sale. A phase converter would be quite useful!



i
Speaking of which..I have a nice old Oliver 12 or 14" table saw for
sale. All cast iron...and 3ph. $300 takes it.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:05:49 GMT, Walter R. wrote:

Very interesting, but what is a phase converter used for?
Since this is alt.home.repair, do I need a 10 hp phase converter?
Just puzzled
:-)


Let's say that you want to build a house addition. You need a table
saw. Your neighbor has a cheap 3 phase 3 HP powermatic table saw for
sale. A phase converter would be quite useful!



i


Im lost. Are you generating mechanical power or electrical power?

--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

"Ignoramus9394" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:24:57 -0400, Wild Bill
wrote:
Yep, Carl is right about the protection considerations.

The overload protection devices aren't just to protect against the motor
developing a short to ground, they react to protect the motor from being
overloaded by a jam or machine malfunction/breakage, stalled or any other
condition that causes the current to rise to a point where the motor
would
be damaged/destroyed by the resulting heat in the windings.
The OLP's heaters are selected from a chart of currents for the specific
motor being used.
Some OLPs have adjustable trip settings so that heaters don't need to be
selected.
Each type of OLP will cause all 3 phases to be opened/interrupted.

Hm, I am confused. I agree with you on the need for overload
protection. I will install something, for sure.

What I am curious about is, can I simply use motor rated fuses on both
incoming 240V legs? That should provide all necessary protections for
the idler.

I do not mind installing an overload relay, as such, except that it is
a cost issue. Fuses are cheaper. (unless I can find something at that
junkyard). Realistically speaking, the idler is not going to bind. If
contacts to capacitors break, yes, I could have a stall issue, which
would be addressed by properly sized fuses.

A relay is more exciting and possibly a little more convenient (it is
resettable, I do not need to buy new fuses when a fuse burns out), but
in reality will provide about same protection.

Am I mistaken?

The OLPs are also available as a separate device, but are commonly
integrated into the overall starter/contactor box.

Yes, I saw some on ebay last night...

The best setup for an RPC would be a magnetic starter/OLP rated for the
size
of the RPC motor, and a separate (specifically sized) starter/OLP for
each
machine motor that's powered from the RPC.

Agreed.

Choosing not to use a second, separate OLP for the (usually) smaller
machine
motor will not offer any protection for the machine motor.

Agreed also.

i


I

Fuses can be expensive and overload heater type contactors are even more
expensive. If you use this RPC and tool fed by it, are used only when you
are "in attendance", you wont need any fuses, your 60 amp breaker will trip
before you burn anything up. If the 3 phase tool motor stalls for any
reason, just hit the kill button on the RPC.

Jerry

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.

Ignoramus9394 wrote:

What I am curious about is, can I simply use motor rated fuses on both
incoming 240V legs? That should provide all necessary protections for
the idler.

I do not mind installing an overload relay, as such, except that it is
a cost issue. Fuses are cheaper. (unless I can find something at that
junkyard). Realistically speaking, the idler is not going to bind. If
contacts to capacitors break, yes, I could have a stall issue, which
would be addressed by properly sized fuses.

A relay is more exciting and possibly a little more convenient (it is
resettable, I do not need to buy new fuses when a fuse burns out), but
in reality will provide about same protection.

Am I mistaken?


The overload units in a motor starter are have a very narrow operating
range like 57.5 - 61.3A that can be very closely matched to the motor
rating. Picking between a 50-60-70A fuse doesn't give much protection.
Also overloads are designed to allow the starting inrush and are
designed to match the thermal characteristics of the motor for overload.
Even time delay fuses have to be much larger than the motor rating or
they will blow on the starting inrush. Fuses can be sized at up to 175%
of the motor rating and circuit breakers up to 250%(NEC). The fuses in a
motor circuit are intended to provide short circuit protection, not
overload protection.

Bud--

Arright, good to hear it.

John

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:53:38 -0400, "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert"
wrote:

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:05:49 GMT, Walter R. wrote:

Very interesting, but what is a phase converter used for?
Since this is alt.home.repair, do I need a 10 hp phase converter?
Just puzzled
:-)


Let's say that you want to build a house addition. You need a table
saw. Your neighbor has a cheap 3 phase 3 HP powermatic table saw for
sale. A phase converter would be quite useful!



i


Im lost. Are you generating mechanical power or electrical power?

Chuckle...Ill try to explain this...

Most US homes use single phase power. This means there are two wires
in the outlets, plus a ground. It can be 120volts or 240 volts, but
there are just two "hot" wires (over simplification for ease)

Industrial machines use for the most part...3 phase power. There are 3
hot wires. and will not run properly on only two. They heat up and
burn out quickly or refuse to start.

There is a lot of surplus industrial machines available, for very
little money that work very well for home use. Even a moderately worn
industrial machine is likely 3x as well made as a brand new Chinese
big box store machine. An example would be a Ryobi table saw from Home
Depot, versus a Delta UniSaw from an industrial auction. One might
last a year or two...the Delta the rest of your life.

So a way must be found to allow a 3 phase machine to be run on single
phase power. Hence we have rotary and static converters (and a few
other ways) which make up the 3rd hot wire.

Such a converter allows you to run industrial type machines on the 240
volt power that comes into your house. Plug the converter into your
electric dryer outlet and now you can use that Delta UniSaw, as an
example. Lathes, milling machines, drill presses, heavy industrial
welders, etc etc are all available, and most often are not even
available in single phase models. Hardinge Lathes, are an example. Due
to many factors, the machine cannot easily be changed over by
replacing the motor with a single phase one. So has to be run on
3phase power. Again..we use a converter to generate that third hot
wire so it can be run off your dryer outlet.

Help any?

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.

Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.


Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

That site is pretty disturbing. What kind guys build those machines? I
thought metalworking was a nice, innocent hobby :-).

Incindentally, those trolls don't think like engineers. Why spend
hundreds of bucks building something with your Kmart tools when you
could just rent a jackhammer for a day?

Chris

Gooney wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.


Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Great pic of your wife there Gooney.


Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Gooney,

When you're finished blowing Ingnorant, take a course in anger mgmt.
You seem very disturbed about something.

G Henslee wrote:
Gooney wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair,
tried it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think
about it for your next project.



Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php


Great pic of your wife there Gooney.


Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every
country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


Gooney,

When you're finished blowing Ingnorant, take a course in anger mgmt. You
seem very disturbed about something.

Er, it would appear to be you who started this, not Gunner?

Chris

"Ignoramus9394" wrote in message
...
| I do not mind installing an overload relay, as such, except that it is
| a cost issue. Fuses are cheaper. (unless I can find something at that
| junkyard). Realistically speaking, the idler is not going to bind. If
| contacts to capacitors break, yes, I could have a stall issue, which
| would be addressed by properly sized fuses.
|
| A relay is more exciting and possibly a little more convenient (it is
| resettable, I do not need to buy new fuses when a fuse burns out), but
| in reality will provide about same protection.
|
| Am I mistaken?
|

Your 220V home circuit breaker has two poles, but each pole is connected
so that if one leg has an overcurrent, it will trip, taking the other leg
out with it. Otherwise, one leg will still be hot, presenting a very ugly
hazard. Fuses cannot provide this protection, and as such, are a single
shot deal. Overloads, on the other hand, have various trip conditions that
can be selected for, and they take all three phases out at the same time,
which is the safety you need.. Ask your supplier for assistance in picking
them, I don't have that information at hand anymore. While motor starters
have the contactor and the overload physically attached to each other,
electrically they're pretty much the same so one brand ought to be usable
with another even if you can bolt them together.
Just for the sake of the record, a motor starter consists of a set of
three large contacts, possible auxiliary contacts (usually clipped or
screwed) and the overload. The overload has three fuse looking elements
that are called heaters. When the heater gets to a certain point in its
thermal cycle, it will bend and trip the overload, which actually just opens
it's own auxiliary contact and the contactor opens up. The solenoid on the
contactor is wired through this overload contact, so in order to reset it
you usually have a reset button to push. To add a little more confusing
information, starters are given sizes, according to NEMA, thus you have a
starter for a given range of motor sizes.
http://www.southlandelectric.com/The...20elements.htm has a lot
that info that might help you understand better. The overloads are sized to
match as well.

"Ignoramus23077" wrote in message
...
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

Many pictures and the story in several chapters:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

Here's the copy and paste of the text from the webpage:

MAIN PAGE

This text details how I made a 10 horsepower rotary phase converter
from $45 worth of parts that I bought from an industrial junkyard
gloriously called Pioneer Industrial Services.

At some point, after reading rec.crafts.metalworking and this
excellent article on making homemade phase converters, I became
excited about the idea of making a rotary phase converter from second
hand parts.

I spent about an hour calling around and finally found a guy Dave from
Pioneer Industrial Services, who said that he had used 3 phase
motors. He has a junkyard full of used electrical components. Here's
what I bought, and for how much.

The nice surprise was that the 10 HP motor was possible for me to
manhandle alone.

My first prototype was a simple setup with no switch at all, I simply
touched the wires to the 240V pieces of the subpanel. Click here to
see and read about the first prototype. It sucked and took a long time
to spin up, due to poor contacts. It was atrocious.

My second prototype included installation of a 50 amp circuit breaker
into the panel, hard wiring of the wires to the breaker, and use of a
Definite Purpose Contactor and a regular lamp switch to turn the
contactor on. Click here to see and read about the second
prototype. This works great, but is ugly and unfinished.

My future plans nclude making a nice carriage on little wheels for the
converter, and hiding all electricals inside safely.

WHAT I BOUGHT

I bought the following:

* 10 HP 3 phase Century motor - $40.
* 7.5 HP US Electrical Motors 3 phase motor - $20. I bought it
just in case.
* 30A heavy duty Square D single throw switch - $8.
* 50A Definite Purpose 3 wire normally open relay - $3.
* Five 535 V 92 mF capacitors the size of a vodka bottle - $5 for
all ($1 each).

Dave from Pioneer Industrial Services is highly recommended, he is
friendly and his proces are reasonable. I was able to pick everything
that I needed, from him. He is in Addison, IL.

FIRST PROTOTYPE

The very first try was quite simple. I spun the motor by hand and
then applied power. No capacitors. The motor was finally able to
accelerate, after much difficulty. That proved to me that it was not
"fried".

My first prototype was simply a test of the concept -- would a three
phase motor spin up like they say, if I apply capacitance between one
power leg and the generated leg?

I wired the motor as follows: two legs of 240V were connected to the
two legs of the motor. These I call Leg 1 and Leg 2. Leg 3 was
connected to Leg 1 via three capacitors wirted in parallel. You can
see that on pictures.

That made the motor spin up reliably, but slowly due to very poor
contact between my wires and the subpanel. After that, I decided to
try better wiring. See next chapter.

SECOND PROTOTYPE

Since the concept obviously worked, I now wanted to go a little bit
farther and wire it more properly.

I wired it as follows. I installed a 50 A crcuit breaker in the
subpanel. I hard wired the 8 gauge wires with one end into the
breaker, and another into the 3 pole definite purpose contactor.

The contactor is a neat thing that, when 110 V is applied to two
sensing contacts, with very little current drawn from 110v it closes
the big contacts for all three poles.

Legs 1 and 2 of utility 240V were connected to legs 1 and 2 of the
motor. Leg 1 (on the motor side, not on utility side) was ALSO
connected to one side of the capacitor bank. Leg 3 (the wild,
generated leg) of the 3 phase motor was connected to the other side of
the capacitor bank. That's how self starting phase converters should
be wired according to this excellent article on making homemade phase
converters

The converter now would spin up in less than a second. My next task
was to measure voltages between legs, which would be suggestive of the
actual degree of phase shift. The voltages were as follows: 256 V
utility, 239V, and 271V. I did not like it.

I then removed one 92 mF capacitor from the bank, leaving only two
capacitors with the total capacitance of 184 mF. The effect of this
was that instead of less than a second, the motor would spin up in
about one second. Not a big deal to me. The voltages now were as
follows: 256 V utility, 240V, and 260V. I decided that I should go
with two capacitors.

Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.

It looks like you're only using 1 contactor to switch the incoming lines,
right? If that's the case, your converter will be imbalanced because, in
order to start the RPC motor quickly, you have a large amount of capacitance
permanently connected between L1 and L3. The correct way to wire it is using
a start contactor to switch a big capacitor between L1 and L3 and have
permanently connected smaller capacitors between L1 and L3 and also between
L2 and L3 to balance the converter. I also agree with the other posters, use
a No Volts Release circuit using a start and stop button and the spare or
auxiliary contact on the main contactor to hold it in. Well done on getting
the parts so cheap, those caps must be worth $40 a piece.
Martin

--
martindot herewhybrowat herentlworlddot herecom

Is there any way that I can rig up a phase converter such as shown below,
and attach another power source (read gas or diesel engine) to the actual
rotor, and come out with quality 3 phase eclectic power of 60 Hz?

thanks
"Ignoramus23077" wrote in message
...
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!

Many pictures and the story in several chapters:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

Here's the copy and paste of the text from the webpage:

MAIN PAGE

This text details how I made a 10 horsepower rotary phase converter
from $45 worth of parts that I bought from an industrial junkyard
gloriously called Pioneer Industrial Services.

At some point, after reading rec.crafts.metalworking and this
excellent article on making homemade phase converters, I became
excited about the idea of making a rotary phase converter from second
hand parts.

I spent about an hour calling around and finally found a guy Dave from
Pioneer Industrial Services, who said that he had used 3 phase
motors. He has a junkyard full of used electrical components. Here's
what I bought, and for how much.

The nice surprise was that the 10 HP motor was possible for me to
manhandle alone.

My first prototype was a simple setup with no switch at all, I simply
touched the wires to the 240V pieces of the subpanel. Click here to
see and read about the first prototype. It sucked and took a long time
to spin up, due to poor contacts. It was atrocious.

My second prototype included installation of a 50 amp circuit breaker
into the panel, hard wiring of the wires to the breaker, and use of a
Definite Purpose Contactor and a regular lamp switch to turn the
contactor on. Click here to see and read about the second
prototype. This works great, but is ugly and unfinished.

My future plans nclude making a nice carriage on little wheels for the
converter, and hiding all electricals inside safely.

WHAT I BOUGHT

I bought the following:

* 10 HP 3 phase Century motor - $40.
* 7.5 HP US Electrical Motors 3 phase motor - $20. I bought it
just in case.
* 30A heavy duty Square D single throw switch - $8.
* 50A Definite Purpose 3 wire normally open relay - $3.
* Five 535 V 92 mF capacitors the size of a vodka bottle - $5 for
all ($1 each).

Dave from Pioneer Industrial Services is highly recommended, he is
friendly and his proces are reasonable. I was able to pick everything
that I needed, from him. He is in Addison, IL.

FIRST PROTOTYPE

The very first try was quite simple. I spun the motor by hand and
then applied power. No capacitors. The motor was finally able to
accelerate, after much difficulty. That proved to me that it was not
"fried".

My first prototype was simply a test of the concept -- would a three
phase motor spin up like they say, if I apply capacitance between one
power leg and the generated leg?

I wired the motor as follows: two legs of 240V were connected to the
two legs of the motor. These I call Leg 1 and Leg 2. Leg 3 was
connected to Leg 1 via three capacitors wirted in parallel. You can
see that on pictures.

That made the motor spin up reliably, but slowly due to very poor
contact between my wires and the subpanel. After that, I decided to
try better wiring. See next chapter.

SECOND PROTOTYPE

Since the concept obviously worked, I now wanted to go a little bit
farther and wire it more properly.

I wired it as follows. I installed a 50 A crcuit breaker in the
subpanel. I hard wired the 8 gauge wires with one end into the
breaker, and another into the 3 pole definite purpose contactor.

The contactor is a neat thing that, when 110 V is applied to two
sensing contacts, with very little current drawn from 110v it closes
the big contacts for all three poles.

Legs 1 and 2 of utility 240V were connected to legs 1 and 2 of the
motor. Leg 1 (on the motor side, not on utility side) was ALSO
connected to one side of the capacitor bank. Leg 3 (the wild,
generated leg) of the 3 phase motor was connected to the other side of
the capacitor bank. That's how self starting phase converters should
be wired according to this excellent article on making homemade phase
converters

The converter now would spin up in less than a second. My next task
was to measure voltages between legs, which would be suggestive of the
actual degree of phase shift. The voltages were as follows: 256 V
utility, 239V, and 271V. I did not like it.

I then removed one 92 mF capacitor from the bank, leaving only two
capacitors with the total capacitance of 184 mF. The effect of this
was that instead of less than a second, the motor would spin up in
about one second. Not a big deal to me. The voltages now were as
follows: 256 V utility, 240V, and 260V. I decided that I should go
with two capacitors.

Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:48:09 GMT, Ignoramus9394
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:45:07 -0400, The Tagge's wrote:
Is there any way that I can rig up a phase converter such as shown below,
and attach another power source (read gas or diesel engine) to the actual
rotor, and come out with quality 3 phase eclectic power of 60 Hz?

that would be called a "generator". As far as I know, induction motors
are not suitable as generating ends. In a rotary phase converter, the
third leg is produced thanks to the magnetic field made by the utility
supplied hot leg.


Actually it is possible with some motors. It may require a short DC
pulse to start it off. My understanding is that some motors work
better than others in this application. But if you stay within the
motors rating it will work (if the motor will generate at all). One
key feature of this type of generator is that if you exceed the motors
rating it will simply stop generating.

I recently scrapped a welder/generator with this same setup in it.
They did have some extra windings wound onto the ends of the field
windings to help it start up and stabilize it but otherwise it was
just a 3 phase motor with a engine hooked to it. The welder was a
Thermadyne but it was obvious from the components in it that it was
made in Italy. In this case the touted cuts out if shorted rule seemed
to not work and there was a short in the windings caused by a short in
some internal leads of the welder.
..

The amount of current that an induction motor draws depends on the
amount of power being produced. A motor that has no load does not draw
nearly as much current as one producing the horsepower listed on the
nameplate. The neat thing is that if you put a little power into the
motor it will draw even less current. More power in and the current
drawn goes negative......That is the motor is generating electricity.

Note while an induction motor can be made to generate power when it is
not hooked to the power grid, it requires some capacitors to do so and
will not work well over a wide range of power out. But if one attaches
another power source to the rotor and have single phase power connected
to two of the wires, it will produce quality 3 phase power of 60 hz (
assuming 60 hz single phase power ). Can even be driven with a single
phase electric motor, but must be driven at slightly over the
synchronous speed ( 1800 rpm for a 4 pole motor ).
So if doing this with a electric motor you need to belt drive and have
one of the pulleys adjustable. Then measure the current drawn by the
single phase motor and adjust the pulley ratio so that the current
drawn by the single phase motor is within its rated nameplate current .

You can also use a induction motor driven with a gas engine to keep the
rpms at a constant amount. This is used with the gasolene engines with
variable compression ratio used to test octane of gasolene.

Dan


The Tagge's wrote:
Is there any way that I can rig up a phase converter such as shown below,
and attach another power source (read gas or diesel engine) to the actual
rotor, and come out with quality 3 phase eclectic power of 60 Hz?

thanks

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:17:58 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.


Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

That site is pretty disturbing. What kind guys build those machines? I
thought metalworking was a nice, innocent hobby :-).

They are for that special woman..the gift that keeps on giving G

Incindentally, those trolls don't think like engineers. Why spend
hundreds of bucks building something with your Kmart tools when you
could just rent a jackhammer for a day?

Chris

Gunner


Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:42:20 GMT, Ignoramus9394
wrote:

Thanks Gunner... I tend to think that making a 10 hp phase converter
for $45 is exciting...

Actually..so do I. And Ive had a brand new 3600 rpm 10hp motor tucked
away for a year or more..I think you have given me reason to build my
bigger one.

Gunner


i

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:02:06 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Ignoramus23077 wrote:
thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.

Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"Gunner" wrote in message ...
Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not
only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:37:44 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Gooney wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair, tried
it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think about it for
your next project.


Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Great pic of your wife there Gooney.

Glad you liked it. So how about posting a picture of your husband?


Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:38:54 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

G Henslee wrote:
Gooney wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:20 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Ignoramus23077 wrote:

thanks to everyone for your thoughts!


No problem. Glad to share.


Costs of parts actually used, so far:

* 10 HP motor -- $40
* Definite Purpose contactor -- $3
* 2 capacitors, 92 mF each -- $2

The total cost, so far, is $45. Wires and new breaker do not count.


Hey Ignorant, for $10 more you could have built an electric chair,
tried it out yourself and we'd never hear from you again. Think
about it for your next project.



Hey Gomer, why not putz off? While you are mucking around, dazed look
on your face, tongue sticking out the corner of your drooling mouth,
trying to figure out how to change a drawer pull, folks like Iggy are
making the drawer pulls from scratch.

Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php


Great pic of your wife there Gooney.


Im sure you can, with your Kmart tools, manage to find a device simple
enough for even you to build, to **** yourself with.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every
country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


Gooney,

When you're finished blowing Ingnorant, take a course in anger mgmt. You
seem very disturbed about something.

Er, it would appear to be you who started this, not Gunner?

Chris

He is just ****ed that he got bitch slapped.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Goonie wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:37:44 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:



Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Great pic of your wife there Gooney.


Glad you liked it. So how about posting a picture of your husband?


Goonie


Fetch fido. Here boy...

Gooney wrote:



He is just ****ed that he got bitch slapped.

Gooney


LOL - Don't credit yourself jackoff. You couldn't **** me off to save
your ass.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:24:49 GMT, "John Adams"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message ...
Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not
only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt



"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win great triumphs, even
though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who
neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray
twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." --Theodore Roosevelt

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:30:26 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Gooney wrote:



He is just ****ed that he got bitch slapped.

Gooney


LOL - Don't credit yourself jackoff. You couldn't **** me off to save
your ass.

Odd..generally the retarded are pretty excitable. They got you on some
really good tranks huh?

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:27:35 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Goonie wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:37:44 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:



Tell you what..why not go play he
http://www.****ingmachines.com/menu.php

Great pic of your wife there Gooney.


Glad you liked it. So how about posting a picture of your husband?


Goonie


Fetch fido. Here boy...

Snicker

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:30:26 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Gooney wrote:



He is just ****ed that he got bitch slapped.

Gooney


LOL - Don't credit yourself jackoff. You couldn't **** me off to save
your ass.


Odd..generally the retarded are pretty excitable. They got you on some
really good tranks huh?

Gooney

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


Good catch boy. Hereya go - fetch some more.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:45:25 +0000, Ignoramus27279 wrote:


That's great! I am sure that with your welding machines etc, you can
build a much better looking enclosure than what I did.

My RPC went through several enclosure schemes before I was happy with it.
This is a 2 HP RPC. I started out trying to build the whole thing inside
of an old Heathkit DX-100 Ham Radio cabinet, thinking that keeping everything
self-contained was a smart idea. It turned out to be too big a bulky for
my tiny workshop. I finally found a smallish metal utility box, like the
kind you might have on a desk to keep paperwork or keys and other odds and
ends in. It was kind of cramped but I mounted all of the components for
the RPC in it -- relays, balancing and start caps, start/run and on/off
switches, and fuses. I bolted this guts box to a plank and using EMT
connectors to run the wiring through I attached it to the idler motor
(which was bolted to the plank as well). On top of this guts box I mounted
two outlet boxes with a 4-wire twist lock outlet in each. This is 3-phase
output. Rather than cutting the shaft off of the idler motor, I decided
to make a shield for it out of aluminum wire mesh (stucco screen).

This arrangement has worked out great. Its much more compact and expandable
in the future. The only thing I'd like to change is to replace the
wooden plank with a frame made of welded angle stock and some rubber feet.
I'll get around to that one day.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:09:26 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:30:26 -0700, G Henslee
wrote:


Gooney wrote:



He is just ****ed that he got bitch slapped.

Gooney


LOL - Don't credit yourself jackoff. You couldn't **** me off to save
your ass.


Odd..generally the retarded are pretty excitable. They got you on some
really good tranks huh?

Gooney

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


Good, Im a catch boy. Will you felch me?


No. Sorry. I dont swing that way.

Ask Richard Gere.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli