I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)

blueman wrote:

I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)


Hi,
UPS? That's typical of UPS. Once my friend was getting a vintage guitar
amp(quite expensive) and they put a hole thru the box with fork lift
puncturing speaker cone and cabinet grill. Major damage and the value of
amp became almost zero. This kind of horror story aplenty. But here in
Canada UPS is pretty decent. When I get something from U.S. I either use
USPS air parcel or Purolator. So far haven't suffered anything lost or
damaged.
Tony

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)



I think it's a given that the WORST way to reward bad service is to keep
doing business with a company. Why do you keep going back?

On Mon, 23 May 2005 15:53:10 GMT, blueman
scribbled this interesting note:

I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)


You know all those raw materials we send to China? Paper, Steel, etc.?
What you (and I) buy at Harbor Freight is really all those raw
materials sent back to us a finished goods and related packaging. They
don't spend any extra to make sure the packaging is really top notch
(or the finished goods either!:~) I suppose I'm lucky since there is a
Harbor Freight store just a few miles from where we live so I've never
had to order anything from the and have it shipped. Sounds like your
story illustrates the need to only order certain kinds of items from
the since the packaging is so insufficient.

For items like air compressors, you would really be better off buying
a top notch compressor that you won't break or wear out. For the cost
of two or three disposable pancake compressors you can buy far better
equipment that is rebuildable and made in the US. We run Thomas
compressors and have for more than twenty years. When the teflon rings
wear out, we take them in, spend a hundred dollars, and get back a
compressor that runs just as well as it did brand new. This kind of
compressor is rated at 10,000 hours of use between service intervals,
or 40 hours a week for five years! You pay more, but you get more in
return.

Good luck with Harbor Freight. I'd imagine with the shipping costs
figured in you could do better to buy better tools locally. Sure
you'll still spend a little more, but you have the option of locally
servicing those tools as well.


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

"Doug Kanter" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)



I think it's a given that the WORST way to reward bad service is to keep
doing business with a company. Why do you keep going back?

I understand (and agree) with where you are coming from. Just that my
wife already thinks I spend too much on tools and I can't beat the
HarborFreight pricing. As a result I am willing to put up with
somewhat worse service than "retail pricing" but I just was curious
whether my experience is "par" or whether I have been more unlucky
than most.

"John Willis" wrote in message


You know all those raw materials we send to China? Paper, Steel, etc.?
What you (and I) buy at Harbor Freight is really all those raw
materials sent back to us a finished goods and related packaging. They
don't spend any extra to make sure the packaging is really top notch
(or the finished goods either!:~)

The Hartford Courant recently had an article about labor in China. There
are school aged girls living in dormitories at some places. The work 12
hours a day, 7 days a week and expect to get paid $100 a YEAR. Some are
considered apprentices and don't get any pay for the first few months.

Wow, they EXPECT to get paid, eh?! That just shows you how bush-style
democracy must be on the march.

Pretty soon, those of us in the US who have gotten laid off from those
outsourced jobs, might also expect to make $100/yr too!

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
The work 12
hours a day, 7 days a week and expect to get paid $100 a YEAR. Some
are
considered apprentices and don't get any pay for the first few
months.

You can't expect "Quality Control" and "Harbor Freight" to be in the same
sentence. Why do you think their tools are so cheap (price)? They skimp
on the
quality and quality control is non-existent. That being said, I do
purchase a few
things from them. Namely hand tools that I know will probably break but
ones I
use so infrequently, I can afford to not buy a long term product. Their
power tools
on the other hand, I won't touch. I've personally found anything to do
with Chicago
Electric to stay away from. I learned this after purchasing a drop light
from them
that burned out the second I plugged it in. Went through 3 of the damn
things
before one worked. Considering how complex a drop light is, I wouldn't
trust them
on a welder! Their pneumatics and Central Machinery has generally
been ok for me. And their Pittsburgh hand tools have been ok. I am
located near
one of their stores however, so don't have to deal with the shipping
fiasco's that you've
experienced.
Cheers,
cc


"blueman" wrote in message
...
I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)

blueman wrote:

I understand (and agree) with where you are coming from. Just that my
wife already thinks I spend too much on tools and I can't beat the
HarborFreight pricing. As a result I am willing to put up with
somewhat worse service than "retail pricing" but I just was curious
whether my experience is "par" or whether I have been more unlucky
than most.

I'd say you just had a run of bad luck. I haven't bought all that much
stuff from HF - a lathe, couple of tile saws, clamps, odds & ends - but
have never had a problem with anything. Did have a missing accessory on
the lathe order...called and they sent it promptly.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

I pick up my tools at the local HF store. Never had a problem with packing
or quality.

This whole issue boils down to the vast gulf between professionals who have
to rely on quality tools to make their living vs. do-it-yourselfers who only
occasionally need a specific tool and who are therefore not concerned with
longevity.

I would still be using primitive hand tools if it were not for HF.
Obviously, a lot of people agree with my approach because HF is doing a
land-office business.
--
Walter
www.rationality.net


"blueman" wrote in message
...
I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)

Jim Conway wrote:

Wow, they EXPECT to get paid, eh?! That just shows you how bush-style
democracy must be on the march.

Pretty soon, those of us in the US who have gotten laid off from those
outsourced jobs, might also expect to make $100/yr too!

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
The work 12

hours a day, 7 days a week and expect to get paid $100 a YEAR. Some

are

considered apprentices and don't get any pay for the first few

months.

Hi,
I've been to China and traveled thru quite a few major cities. Being
able to read, write, understand Chinese was a big help. And I know what
you mean. I experienced it with my own eyes.
And I am afraid of cheap tools. My life may be endangered when I use
them. Specially power tool, I dare not buy those El Cheapos.
Tony

"blueman" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with
heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)



I think it's a given that the WORST way to reward bad service is to keep
doing business with a company. Why do you keep going back?

I understand (and agree) with where you are coming from. Just that my
wife already thinks I spend too much on tools and I can't beat the
HarborFreight pricing. As a result I am willing to put up with
somewhat worse service than "retail pricing" but I just was curious
whether my experience is "par" or whether I have been more unlucky
than most.

Time your purchases to coincide with things going on sale at Sears. Some of
their stuff is ALSO made in Peoples' Dictatorship of China, like almost
everything at Harbor Freight, but at least at Sears, they'll mindlessly
accept almost anything in return because of their warranty.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

The Hartford Courant recently had an article about labor in China.
There are school aged girls living in dormitories at some places.
The work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and expect to get paid $100 a
YEAR. Some are considered apprentices and don't get any pay for the
first few months.

Hard to compare apples and oranges. US dollar amounts are unimportant;
what *is* important is what can be purchased with the money.

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

I keep on being tempted by the cheap prices at Harborfreight that
allow me to indulge in tools that I never would be able to justify
otherwise.
CY: Me, too.

If they arrive in good condition, I have found them to work
satisfactorily for my type of DIY projects (despite the warnings
others have about quality).
CY: The ones I found inadequate were Pittsburgh brand flare wrenches.
Useless.

My problem, however, has been that the items are typically so poorly
packed that they arrive broken.

For example,
(1) I had to order 3 compressors before I received one
without a broken plastic motor casing.
CY: Wow.

(2) I have now received 2 broken nailers in a row
CY: Makes me wonder if they keep sending broken ones otu, and hope someoen
will keep it?

(3) Twice my shipments of nails have arrived with the boxen open and
the nails strewn all over the box.

(4) The boxes themselves are almost always poorly packed with heavy/rugged
and light/delicate items mixed together in one large box,
separated by only a few kernels of styrofoam. Often the box itself
arrives ripped or damaged.

- Am I just having bad luck or have others experienced the same
problem?
CY: For me, the shipping has been good. I also have a local store.

- Has anyone succeeded in getting them to have better quality control?
(with just about every order requiring some re-shipping of items it
is hard to believe that they are saving money this way...)
CY: At the local store, the boxes are often open, and you're never quite
sure if the package is complete. Well, cheep is as cheep does.

"dadiOH" wrote in message

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

Good point. They probably just order from room service when hungry too.


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.

One would hope so.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:cAoke.3719$Px1.1583@trnddc07...

As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.

Why do you think the practice will be ending soon in the Peoples
Dictatorship of China? The whole world knows it's happening, but nobody says
a word about it.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:cAoke.3719$Px1.1583@trnddc07...


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.


Why do you think the practice will be ending soon in the Peoples
Dictatorship of China? The whole world knows it's happening, but nobody says
a word about it.


Hi,
China is on the move, I mean moving forward. Dictatorship? Where?
I thought U.S. has dictatorship right now, LOL.
In 40 to 50 years China's econmy will be 3 times that of U.S. Next up
following China is India. U.S. watch out. May get left behind.
Tony

Blueman,

You don't always get what you pay for, but you DON'T get what you don't
pay for! (Unless you steal it).
Junk is junk, quit wasting your money.

Stretch

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:v_oke.1454788$Xk.807727@pd7tw3no...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:cAoke.3719$Px1.1583@trnddc07...


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.


Why do you think the practice will be ending soon in the Peoples
Dictatorship of China? The whole world knows it's happening, but nobody
says a word about it.
Hi,
China is on the move, I mean moving forward. Dictatorship? Where?
I thought U.S. has dictatorship right now, LOL.
In 40 to 50 years China's econmy will be 3 times that of U.S. Next up
following China is India. U.S. watch out. May get left behind.
Tony

What do you mean by "moving forward"? They have absolutely NO reason to
change the way they do business, treat their employees, or hose their
environment. They're being rewarded for doing things any way they damned
well please, unless you think all the business we give them is some sort of
punishment.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:l%nke.17101$KQ6.13036@trndny02...

"John Willis" wrote in message


You know all those raw materials we send to China? Paper, Steel, etc.?
What you (and I) buy at Harbor Freight is really all those raw
materials sent back to us a finished goods and related packaging. They
don't spend any extra to make sure the packaging is really top notch
(or the finished goods either!:~)

The Hartford Courant recently had an article about labor in China. There
are school aged girls living in dormitories at some places. The work 12
hours a day, 7 days a week and expect to get paid $100 a YEAR. Some are
considered apprentices and don't get any pay for the first few months.
===========================
OUTSOURCING OF JOBS REACHES THE PRESIDENT

by Staff Reporter Melynda Jill



Washington DC - Congress today announced that the Office of
President of the United States of America will be outsourced to
overseas interests as of June 30th, the end of this fiscal year.
he move is being made to save not only a significant portion of
the President's $400K yearly salary, but also a record $521 Billion
in deficit expenditures and related overhead.

"We believe this is a wise move financially. The cost savings
should be significant," stated Congressman Thomas Reynolds
(R-Wash). Reynolds, with the aid of the GAO (the General Accounting
Office), has studied outsourcing of American jobs extensively. "We
cannot expect to remain competitive on the world stage with the
current level of cash outlay," Reynolds noted.

Preparations for the job move have been underway for some time.
Sanji Gurvinder Singh of Indus Teleservices, Mumbai, India will be
assuming the Office of President of the United States as of July 1.
Mr. Singh was born in the United States while his parents were
vacationing at Niagara Falls, thus making him eligible for the
position. He will receive a salary of $320 (USD) a month but with
no health coverage or other benefits. It is believed that Mr. Singh
will be able to handle his job responsibilities without support
staff. Due to the time difference between the US and India, he will
be working primarily at night, when few offices of the US
Government will be open.

"Working nights will allow me to keep my day job at the American
Express call center," stated Mr. Singh in an exclusive interview.

"I am excited about this position. I always hoped I would be
President someday."

A Congressional Spokesperson noted that while Mr. Singh may not be
fully aware of all the issues involved in the office of President,
this should not be a problem. Mr. Singh will rely upon a script
tree that will enable him to respond effectively to most topics of
concern. Using this tree, he can address common concerns without
having to understand the underlying issues at all. "We know these
scripting tools work," stated the Spokesperson. "Mr. Bush has used
them successfully for years."

Mr. Bush will receive health overage, expenses, and salary until
his final day of employment. Following a two week waiting period,
he will be eligible for $240 dollars a week unemployment for 13
weeks. Unfortunately he will not be eligible for Medicaid as his
unemployment benefits will exceed the allowed limit.

Mr. Bush has been provided the outplacement services of Manpower,
Inc. to help him write a resume and prepare for his upcoming job
transition. According to Manpower, Mr. Bush may have difficulties
in securing a new position due to limited practical work
experience. One possibility is re-enlistment in the Army National
Guard. Should he choose this option, he would likely be stationed
in Iraq, a country he has visited. "I've been there, I know all
about Iraq ,"stated Mr. Bush, who gained invaluable knowledge of
the country in a visit to the Baghdad Airport nonsmoking terminal
and gift shop.

Sources in Baghdad and Falluja say Mr. Bush would receive a warm
reception from local Iraqis. They have asked to be provided with
details of his arrival so that they might arrange an appropriate
welcome.

=============================================

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...


Preparations for the job move have been underway for some time.
Sanji Gurvinder Singh of Indus Teleservices, Mumbai, India will be
assuming the Office of President of the United States as of July 1.
Mr. Singh was born in the United States while his parents were
vacationing at Niagara Falls, thus making him eligible for the
position.

It's a safe bet he'll have a better command of English than the current
organism. No more "Hispanical" people.

On Mon, 23 May 2005 17:40:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "dadiOH"
wrote:

Hard to compare apples and oranges. US dollar amounts are unimportant;
what *is* important is what can be purchased with the money.

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

Good points.

--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.

And we support it by buying all their stuff....

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:v_oke.1454788$Xk.807727@pd7tw3no...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:cAoke.3719$Px1.1583@trnddc07...


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.


Why do you think the practice will be ending soon in the Peoples
Dictatorship of China? The whole world knows it's happening, but nobody
says a word about it.
Hi,
China is on the move, I mean moving forward. Dictatorship? Where?
I thought U.S. has dictatorship right now, LOL.
In 40 to 50 years China's econmy will be 3 times that of U.S. Next up
following China is India. U.S. watch out. May get left behind.
Tony

What do you mean by "moving forward"? They have absolutely NO reason to
change the way they do business, treat their employees, or hose their
environment. They're being rewarded for doing things any way they damned
well please, unless you think all the business we give them is some sort
of punishment.

"Vic Dura" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 May 2005 17:40:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "dadiOH"
wrote:

Hard to compare apples and oranges. US dollar amounts are unimportant;
what *is* important is what can be purchased with the money.

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

Good points.

Oh yeah. Life is good in China. There are a few people in this discussion
who really ought to shell out some big money for a grownup newspaper now and
then.

September 9, 2001, Sunday



FOREIGN DESK



Chinese Fight Crime With Torture and Executions



By CRAIG S. SMITH (NYT) 2314 words



HEFEI, China -- Liu Minghe paused in a hospital room here to let a nurse
take his blood pressure, which had surged dangerously in the few minutes
since he began talking about how he had won his freedom from China's death
row.



After she left, he begged off recounting in greater detail the torture that
he said had led him to confess to a murder he did not commit.



''Let's just say it was 'forced interrogation and confession under duress,'
'' Mr. Liu said, his speech slurring slightly because he is missing several
of his lower teeth, which he said had been knocked out during his five-year
incarceration.



Mr. Liu has been recuperating in a hospital in Hefei, 560 miles south of
Beijing, since winning his release last month after having been sentenced to
die in 1996 in one of China's ''strike hard'' campaigns, a frenzied national
effort to purge the land of lawbreakers.



He managed to overturn his conviction on the grounds of insufficient
evidence, thanks largely to his former Communist Party membership, his
family's relatively high social position, and money. But many other people
who are wrongly convicted and condemned to die in China may not be so lucky.



China routinely executes more people than all other countries combined.
This year, though, has been far from routine. Without much notice at home or
abroad, the government has begun sending unknown thousands of people to
execution grounds, often after they have been tortured into confessing
crimes that to foreigners seem minor.



Today China is in the midst of its third great wave of executions in the
last quarter century, a campaign in which as many as 191 people have been
executed in a single day, according to the state news media. Since President
Jiang Zemin announced the crackdown in April, at least 3,000 people have
been executed, and double or even triple that number have been sentenced to
death. The pace of executions shows no sign of abating.



The wrongful conviction of Mr. Liu, and others like him, suggests that by
the time the campaign ends in 2003 dozens -- if not hundreds -- of innocent
people will have died in the capital punishment spree.



These periodic nationwide crackdowns, in response to rising crime and
concerns about weakening social order, place huge pressures on the local
police to solve crimes quickly, which they often do by extorting confessions
through torture. In Hunan Province, newspapers recently reported that the
police solved 3,000 cases in two days in April.

Police in Sichuan Province reported that they had solved 6,704 cases,
including 691 murders, robberies or bombings, in six days that same month.



The campaigns also pressure the courts to try the accused quickly, record
the maximum possible number of convictions and show little mercy in
sentencing.



Convictions are sometimes handed down within days of arrests. Appeals are
processed briskly and executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks.



The monthly tally of death sentences has become a kind of grim score card
showing how each province is doing. But the real numbers remain a closely
guarded secret. They are believed to be far higher than the confirmed tally,
which has been compiled from press reports by people like Catherine Baber, a
researcher at Amnesty International based in Hong Kong, or a Western
diplomat in Beijing who does not want to be named.



Many, if not most, executions are not reported in the press at all. And
many of the reports that are published simply say that a ''group'' of people
were executed on a given day. A group can include anywhere from a few people
to dozens. Amnesty International usually counts each group as just two.



Neither Ms. Baber nor the diplomat will venture to guess what the true
number of executions might be. But both agree that this year's total will
probably surpass 5,000. Some observers say the number could reach as high as
10,000.



It is also impossible to say how many of the people executed might be
innocent.



Signs of Wrongful Justice



Certainly, many of them have been ordered to die for crimes, like bribery,
that would earn them only brief jail terms in the West. But several wrongful
convictions, like Mr. Liu's, have recently come to light, suggesting that
many among the condemned are not guilty at all.



Mr. Liu, 63, married and a former associate professor at a technical
institute in Wuhu, Anhui Province, was arrested during China's last great
sweep in 1996, for the murder of Tao Ziyu, who was reputed to be his lover.



Her body was found floating shoeless in a shallow lotus pond not far from
his campus residence. She had been strangled by someone's left hand, the
police concluded.



An elderly woman reported seeing a woman arguing with a man near the pond
shortly after Ms. Tao was last seen alive, visiting a friend who lived
nearby. Mr. Liu, who is right handed, protested his innocence and said he
could account for his whereabouts at the time.



But just before the end of the three-month period that police are allowed
to hold suspects, Mr. Liu says they plunged him into brutal, round-the-clock
interrogations.



His wife says he was handcuffed to a window so he had to either stand or
hang from his wrists. She says he was only allowed to eat a few bites of
food by lowering his head to a bowl. A document submitted to the court by
his lawyers said that Mr. Liu had not been allowed to drink or close his
eyes during the interrogation.



The police told him the questioning would continue for 10 days and that if
he did not confess he would probably be executed, and offered him a lighter
sentence if he did, according to his lawyers.



On the third day, Mr. Liu broke. In the videotaped confession, which his
wife has seen, interrogators did most of the talking while a dispirited Mr.
Liu answered ''yes'' to the scenario they presented.



Suspects in China are not allowed legal counsel, or any contact with the
outside world while under interrogation. Mr. Liu's wife says her husband
disavowed the confession as soon as he was allowed to see a lawyer.



''I couldn't bear it,'' she said he told the lawyer. ''If I didn't confess,
I would have died.''



Despite the lack of physical evidence and Mr. Liu's alibis, the Wuhu
Intermediate People's Court found him guilty of murdering Ms. Tao based on
his videotaped confession. On Dec. 30, 1996, he was sentenced to death.



Mr. Liu appealed his conviction and his family enlisted the help of a legal
expert from Beijing who focused on, among other inconsistencies in the
prosecution's case, Mr. Liu's alibi and the coroner's estimated time of Ms.
Tao's death.



A higher provincial court sent Mr. Liu's case back for a retrial in Wuhu,
which found Mr. Liu guilty a second time but reduced his sentence to life in
prison.



Retrials Without Limit



There is no limit in China to how many times a case can be retried, and Mr.
Liu appealed his case twice more before the provincial court overturned his
conviction. Before he was finally released on Aug. 8, his wife had nearly
lapsed into despair. ''I have no tears left to cry,'' Ms. Wang said in an
interview in July, squatting in her small living room, her knees bearing
thick, plum-size scabs left from kneeling outside the courthouse to plead
for her husband's life.



During the five years he was jailed, Mr. Liu says he was held in a series
of 200-square-foot rooms crammed with as many as 26 people. He slept on
boards or on the floor. He was rarely allowed outside and given few
opportunities to exercise. For 16 months both his hands and feet were
shackled, he says. He saw about 30 people sent to their deaths.



''My four limbs could barely move,'' he said last week, sitting in the
hospital room, his white hair recently died black in an attempt to erase the
wasted years. He said he collapsed shortly after he was released from prison
and has since been hospitalized with severe diabetes and high blood
pressure.



Mr. Liu might be dead today had not his longtime Communist Party membership
and social position encouraged the provincial court to look more carefully
at his case, his family and lawyers say. Money also helped. Mr. Liu's family
has spent more than $36,000 on his defense, an enormous sum here.



But the vast majority of people executed in China have neither position nor
money and their cases often get less scrutiny than Mr. Liu's, defendants'
lawyers say.



Part of the problem is that Chinese prosecutors rely less on physical
evidence than confessions to win convictions. According to a recent state
press report, a government investigation found 221 cases of confessions
extorted in six provinces during a two-year period ending in 1999. In 21 of
those cases, the prisoners were tortured to death.



Even if the prisoner shows signs of abuse, prosecutors rarely question how
the confessions were obtained.



Du Peiwu, a policeman in Yunnan Province, was released from death row last
November after a group of car thieves confessed to shooting his wife and
another police officer in April 1998, crimes for which Mr. Du had been
convicted despite a clear alibi and lack of physical evidence linking him to
the murders.



During his trial, he dramatically stripped off an outer layer of clothes to
reveal the tattered garments in which he said he had been beaten, hung by
his handcuffed wrists and shocked with a cattle prod to force his
confession. The judges ignored his claim, according to press reports after
he was freed.



Though forced confessions are technically illegal, the country's Public
Security Ministry -- whose local bureaus are charged with investigating
crimes -- rewards officers who extract confessions, while usually only
lightly punishing those whose abuse goes too far.



The two policemen who tortured Mr. Du into confessing were sentenced last
month to suspended one-year and one-and-a-half year sentences respectively.



Compounding the problem is an untrained and politically beholden judiciary.



Judges in China are not required to have any legal training, and few do.
Most hold their positions because they have close connections with local
government officials, who are eager for quick convictions.



''Veterinarians, drivers, anybody can get that job if they have good
relations,'' said He Xing, a lawyer who teaches at the North China
University of Law in Shijiazhuang, capital of Hebei Province.



People have been executed in recent months for everything from tax fraud to
drug trafficking to stealing diesel fuel.



In China's far western province of Xinjiang, where a small but persistent
separatist movement percolates among the mainly Muslim population, people
have been shot for ''separatism,'' according to local newspaper reports.



Similarly intense spates of executions have played a grisly role in China's
political upheavals over the last half century. In the first few years after
the Communist Party came to power, as many as five million people were put
to death, most after summary trials by makeshift tribunals.



A Third Wave of Executions



This year is the third surge in executions since the end of the 1966-1976
Cultural Revolution.



The first came in 1983 when Deng Xiaoping announced the first ''strike
hard'' campaign. Large white posters bearing the names and crimes of the
condemned were pasted in public places across the country. Western observers
estimated that more than 10,000 people died that year. The second ''strike
hard'' campaign, the one that swept up Mr. Liu, began in 1996.



These periodic crackdowns and the widespread use of execution have received
broad popular support in China, despite the likelihood of wrongful
convictions.



A 1995 academic survey of 2,661 people found that fewer than 1 percent were
in favor of abolishing the death penalty, while more than 90 percent thought
there should be more.



Their opinions are colored, however, by underreporting of executions in the
press and the government's secrecy about the annual total.



With increasing frequency, prisoners are formally arrested or sentenced at
public rallies. Nearly two million people attended such rallies in Shaanxi
Province in April and May. On June 25, more than 5,000 people attended a
rally in Hubei Province, at which 13 people were sentenced to death, 8 of
whom were executed immediately.



The condemned are normally paraded through town on the beds of open trucks,
before being driven to the execution ground, often trailed by a caravan of
onlookers.



Usually at an open field outside of town, the prisoners are made to kneel
and are then shot at point blank range in the back of the head. Their organs
are sometimes removed on the spot by medical staff and rushed to nearby
hospitals for transplant operations.



The condemned are not allowed to see their families before they die. Once
they are picked up for questioning, they never speak to a loved one again.



Often, the family does not even learn of the final sentence until the
execution is over and they are notified to collect the prisoner's ashes from
a crematory.







Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they
have their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash
earned is walking around money.

Good point. They probably just order from room service when hungry
too.


Probably bad tippers though.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:v_oke.1454788$Xk.807727@pd7tw3no...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
news:cAoke.3719$Px1.1583@trnddc07...


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long
since the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and
there) and it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.


Why do you think the practice will be ending soon in the Peoples
Dictatorship of China? The whole world knows it's happening, but
nobody says a word about it.
Hi,
China is on the move, I mean moving forward. Dictatorship? Where?
I thought U.S. has dictatorship right now, LOL.
In 40 to 50 years China's econmy will be 3 times that of U.S. Next up
following China is India. U.S. watch out. May get left behind.
Tony

What do you mean by "moving forward"?

He means their economy is improving....that their manufacturing skills
are improving...that their standard of living is improving. And they
are. The changes between now and 20 years ago are phenomenal.
_____________

They have absolutely NO reason
to change the way they do business, treat their employees, or hose
their environment.

Chinese are first rate business men. What don't you like about the way
they do business? Any manufacturer knows that the productivity of the
employees grows his business. Unhappy employees aren't productive.
What makes you think the workers are treated badly? And badly by what
yardstick.

Now, as far as hosing the environment goes, nobody - but *NOBODY* - does
it better than we Americans. Look at the cars. Look at the space
dedicated to cars. Look at the energy consumed by the average
American...look at the water used. Look at the 1000s of trucks
delivering stuff coast to coast...stuff that could be more efficiently
sent by train to major distribution centers and trucked from there. And
I don't hear any mumblings from DC about one child families either.
_______________

They're being rewarded for doing things any way
they damned well please, unless you think all the business we give
them is some sort of punishment.

Lead the way...chuck your computer. Probably your TV, VCR, DVD player
too. Not to mention more mundane things like clothes, umbrellas,
rope...

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 23 May 2005 19:26:04 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Washington DC - Congress today announced that the Office of
President of the United States of America will be outsourced to
overseas interests

That was outsourced to Saudi Arabia many years ago.

--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.

On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:47:15 GMT, blueman
scribbled this interesting note:


I understand (and agree) with where you are coming from. Just that my
wife already thinks I spend too much on tools and I can't beat the
HarborFreight pricing. As a result I am willing to put up with
somewhat worse service than "retail pricing" but I just was curious
whether my experience is "par" or whether I have been more unlucky
than most.

The point is, you have to know which pennies to pinch. Sometimes it is
wise to buy the cheapest tool for the job, other times you are better
off with a far superior tool that is usually unavailable at Harbor
Freight. The trick is to know the difference before hand!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

God grant me the money to buy the tools I need to buy, the Harbor Freight
for the tools I don't really need, and the wisdom to know the difference.

With apologies to the Serenity Prayer.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"John Willis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 May 2005 16:47:15 GMT, blueman
scribbled this interesting note:


I understand (and agree) with where you are coming from. Just that my
wife already thinks I spend too much on tools and I can't beat the
HarborFreight pricing. As a result I am willing to put up with
somewhat worse service than "retail pricing" but I just was curious
whether my experience is "par" or whether I have been more unlucky
than most.

The point is, you have to know which pennies to pinch. Sometimes it is
wise to buy the cheapest tool for the job, other times you are better
off with a far superior tool that is usually unavailable at Harbor
Freight. The trick is to know the difference before hand!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.


Good point. They probably just order from room service when hungry too.


As far as teenagers working long hours, hasn't been all that long since
the same thing was also common in the US (still is here and there) and
it won't be too long before it is uncommon in the PRC.


One would hope so.


Ed, out of the blue statements don't really mean
much without some background. I remember a
background lecture about India, in which the
speaker who had lived in India for many years,
told about the left hand (or was it the right)
thing. Asked why they didn't use TP, he simply
stated that the cost of TP would be greater than
the average family income.

As for the girls working 12hours, the alternative
is probably working 14 hours a day on a farm,
without health care, without pay, and without
hope. $100 a year might be the difference between
servitude (or slavery) and some independence.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message


As for the girls working 12hours, the alternative is probably working 14
hours a day on a farm, without health care, without pay, and without hope.
$100 a year might be the difference between servitude (or slavery) and
some independence.

You may be right, but I can't help to think we are helping to keep it that
way by demanding lower and lower prices for goods at the big box stores.
I'm not one for just giving away my money, but I'm willing to pay $12 for a
toaster made by workers putting in a 50 hour week rather than $9 for one
made by near slaves.

"Vic Dura" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 May 2005 19:26:04 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Washington DC - Congress today announced that the Office of
President of the United States of America will be outsourced to
overseas interests

That was outsourced to Saudi Arabia many years ago.

Eleventeen beers to you, for being a seeker of the truth. :-)

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Vic Dura" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 23 May 2005 17:40:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "dadiOH"
wrote:


Hard to compare apples and oranges. US dollar amounts are unimportant;
what *is* important is what can be purchased with the money.

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

Good points.


Oh yeah. Life is good in China. There are a few people in this discussion
who really ought to shell out some big money for a grownup newspaper now and
then.

September 9, 2001, Sunday



FOREIGN DESK



Chinese Fight Crime With Torture and Executions



By CRAIG S. SMITH (NYT) 2314 words



HEFEI, China -- Liu Minghe paused in a hospital room here to let a nurse
take his blood pressure, which had surged dangerously in the few minutes
since he began talking about how he had won his freedom from China's death
row.

(SNIP )


China routinely executes more people than all other countries combined.
This year, though, has been far from routine. Without much notice at home or
abroad, the government has begun sending unknown thousands of people to
execution grounds, often after they have been tortured into confessing
crimes that to foreigners seem minor.


Convictions are sometimes handed down within days of arrests. Appeals are
processed briskly and executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks.


( More Snip)

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

I'm having a problem with the "reporting".
" executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks."

Which is it ? " an hour", " a few months", "only weeks"?
With all that in the same paragraph I have to wonder about the accuracy
of the so-called "report".

" normally" --- "Usually" --- "occasionally" seem to be very ambiguous
in the context.




--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.

"Gort" wrote in message
...


I'm having a problem with the "reporting".
" executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks."

Which is it ? " an hour", " a few months", "only weeks"?
With all that in the same paragraph I have to wonder about the accuracy of
the so-called "report".

" normally" --- "Usually" --- "occasionally" seem to be very ambiguous in
the context.

Yeah...OK. Thanks for the brilliant insights, professor.

On Mon, 23 May 2005 20:43:10 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Vic Dura" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 May 2005 17:40:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? "dadiOH"
wrote:

Hard to compare apples and oranges. US dollar amounts are unimportant;
what *is* important is what can be purchased with the money.

Now, even in the PRC, $100 a year isn't a munificent sum but they have
their bed and board, probably health care too, so the cash earned is
walking around money.

Good points.

Oh yeah. Life is good in China. There are a few people in this discussion
who really ought to shell out some big money for a grownup newspaper now and
then.

September 9, 2001, Sunday
FOREIGN DESK
Chinese Fight Crime With Torture and Executions

Does this mean that you won't be buying any Chinese-made products in
the future?

--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.

On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:56:09 -0700, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? Gort wrote:

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

I'm having a problem with the "reporting".
" executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks."

Which is it ? " an hour", " a few months", "only weeks"?
With all that in the same paragraph I have to wonder about the accuracy
of the so-called "report".

" normally" --- "Usually" --- "occasionally" seem to be very ambiguous
in the context.

No need to wonder about the accuracy. See the Copyright for the
source. That explains all. If the New York Slimes Company spins it, it
can't be right.

--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.

"Vic Dura" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:56:09 -0700, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? Gort wrote:

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

I'm having a problem with the "reporting".
" executions are normally carried out within an hour
after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between
an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks."

Which is it ? " an hour", " a few months", "only weeks"?
With all that in the same paragraph I have to wonder about the accuracy
of the so-called "report".

" normally" --- "Usually" --- "occasionally" seem to be very ambiguous
in the context.

No need to wonder about the accuracy. See the Copyright for the
source. That explains all. If the New York Slimes Company spins it, it
can't be right.

OK. :-) I assume you realize two things:

1) Every good-sized newspaper in this country has had reporters who've been
an embarrassment. But, you don't discount everything they print.

2) It's equally embarrassing when you make it obvious that you're repeating
what Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage told you to say. That's such a
stereotypical reaction at this point, slamming one news source because you
were told to.

Think for yourself, and explain FACTUALLY why you have no faith in the
entire news story. Not "duh...cause you can't trust that paper". Only a
dummy believes that. You're not a dummy.

Vic Dura wrote:
On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:56:09 -0700, in alt.home.repair
HarborFreight - am I just unlucky? Gort wrote:


Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

I'm having a problem with the "reporting".
" executions are normally carried out within an hour

after a sentence is confirmed. Usually, just a few months pass between an
arrest and execution, occasionally only weeks."

Which is it ? " an hour", " a few months", "only weeks"?
With all that in the same paragraph I have to wonder about the accuracy
of the so-called "report".

" normally" --- "Usually" --- "occasionally" seem to be very ambiguous
in the context.


No need to wonder about the accuracy. See the Copyright for the
source. That explains all. If the New York Slimes Company spins it, it
can't be right.


They have been writing some interesting fiction lately, haven't they... ;-)



--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.

As for the girls working 12hours, the alternative is probably working 14
hours a day on a farm, without health care, without pay, and without hope.
$100 a year might be the difference between servitude (or slavery) and
some independence.

You may be right, but I can't help to think we are helping to keep it that
way by demanding lower and lower prices for goods at the big box stores.
I'm not one for just giving away my money, but I'm willing to pay $12 for a
toaster made by workers putting in a 50 hour week rather than $9 for one
made by near slaves.


Maybe, but that's not really the choice you have.. The available
choice is buying a $9 toaster by "near slaves", or NOT buying it.
In the latter case, you may end up buying a $12 toaster from someone
ELSE, but that doesn't really help the chinese slave girl any,
she's still out of a job.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
As for the girls working 12hours, the alternative is probably working 14
hours a day on a farm, without health care, without pay, and without
hope.
$100 a year might be the difference between servitude (or slavery) and
some independence.

You may be right, but I can't help to think we are helping to keep it that
way by demanding lower and lower prices for goods at the big box stores.
I'm not one for just giving away my money, but I'm willing to pay $12 for
a
toaster made by workers putting in a 50 hour week rather than $9 for one
made by near slaves.


Maybe, but that's not really the choice you have.. The available
choice is buying a $9 toaster by "near slaves", or NOT buying it.
In the latter case, you may end up buying a $12 toaster from someone
ELSE, but that doesn't really help the chinese slave girl any,
she's still out of a job.


If "won't buy it" happened often enough, it would eventually affect the
party bosses who REALLY pocket all the profits at Chinese factories. That
tactic works everywhere. Remember when this country finally woke up, in the
late 1970s, and realized the American car makers were boning customers in
the behind by selling complete trash? That was a great learning tool.