I recently purchased a 'high quality' sofa, chair and ottoman from a
local upscale furniture store. We wanted a color that wasn't
available in the store, so the set was special ordered from the
factory. 4 months later the set arrived -- all the seams on the
furniture are crooked, there are black spots througout the fabric, and
there are loose threads abound. It does not at all look like the set
on the store floor. There were no black spots on the fabric swatch
that we were given to choose color.

Unfortunately, when the furntiure was delivered, my wife paid the due
balance by check. We have told the store that we want a refund.
After 30 days of discussions with the salesman and sales manager, the
best that they have offered is that we can choose another set from
their store and pay a 10% restocking fee.

I would appreciate opinions on the best way to return the furniture
and recover our full costs.

Thank you,
Stewart

In article ,
(Stewart Apelzin) wrote:

I recently purchased a 'high quality' sofa, chair and ottoman from a
local upscale furniture store. We wanted a color that wasn't
available in the store, so the set was special ordered from the
factory. 4 months later the set arrived -- all the seams on the
furniture are crooked, there are black spots througout the fabric, and
there are loose threads abound. It does not at all look like the set
on the store floor. There were no black spots on the fabric swatch
that we were given to choose color.

Unfortunately, when the furntiure was delivered, my wife paid the due
balance by check. We have told the store that we want a refund.
After 30 days of discussions with the salesman and sales manager, the
best that they have offered is that we can choose another set from
their store and pay a 10% restocking fee.

I would appreciate opinions on the best way to return the furniture
and recover our full costs.

Thank you,
Stewart

Have your lawyer write them a letter on his (or her) letterhead and then
take them to small claims court.

"Stewart Apelzin" wrote in message
om...
I recently purchased a 'high quality' sofa, chair and ottoman from a
local upscale furniture store. We wanted a color that wasn't
available in the store, so the set was special ordered from the
factory. 4 months later the set arrived -- all the seams on the
furniture are crooked, there are black spots througout the fabric, and
there are loose threads abound. It does not at all look like the set
on the store floor. There were no black spots on the fabric swatch
that we were given to choose color.

Unfortunately, when the furntiure was delivered, my wife paid the due
balance by check. We have told the store that we want a refund.
After 30 days of discussions with the salesman and sales manager, the
best that they have offered is that we can choose another set from
their store and pay a 10% restocking fee.

I would appreciate opinions on the best way to return the furniture
and recover our full costs.

Thank you,
Stewart

This is Turtle.

1) Restocking fee does not come into play unless you got what you wanted but
changed your mine. Tell him to stick the 10% restocking fee ** *** *** . You
just demand a full refund for you did not get what you ordered . Now if you like
what other furniture they have in the store , you can barter on it but if not
demand full refund. If they don't like it , just have your lawyer send them a
letter of inquirey as to what the hold up is on the refund. This bring the order
of business to a new level where somebody is going to get burnt. Most all
businesses will never go there unless they are going bankrupt and don't care.

2) Now don't fool around and get past 90 days without bring the stuff back to
them for after that time they can say you used it and will have to adjust the
refund for the use of the furniture. If you tell them to come get itand they
don't have a small time mover bring it back so they know you mean business with
the deal. You then add the cost of bring it back to the refund bill. Any good
business knows to not fight with a customer that is coming on strong to get a
refund. Both customer and mostly the business owner gets bad PR when they end up
in small claims court.

3) Go after them and they will back off. If you do nothing -- they will do
nothing.

TURTLE

On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:18:07 -0500, someone wrote:


.... You then add the cost of bring it back to the refund bill. Any good
business knows to not fight with a customer that is coming

TURTLE

Fat chance of that.

I was in court the other day (waiting for one of my client's cases to
be called), and there was a case on where a woman, because she
couldn't prove insurance, had her car towed and a citation issued.
She came to court with proof of insurance, the judge smiled and
offered to dismiss the case - and THEN she started ranting about how
she wanted the police to reimburse her for the towing bill. At this
point the judge told her that wasn't going to happen in his court and
if she didn't like it, she could mark the case for trial.

Lots of people talk big about what they are going to demand and get
and you can TRY to add anything you want to anyting you want, but you
aint gonna get it.

TURTLE, stick to plumbing.

-v.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:18:07 -0500, someone wrote:


.... You then add the cost of bring it back to the refund bill. Any good
business knows to not fight with a customer that is coming

TURTLE

Fat chance of that.

I was in court the other day (waiting for one of my client's cases to
be called), and there was a case on where a woman, because she
couldn't prove insurance, had her car towed and a citation issued.
She came to court with proof of insurance, the judge smiled and
offered to dismiss the case - and THEN she started ranting about how
she wanted the police to reimburse her for the towing bill. At this
point the judge told her that wasn't going to happen in his court and
if she didn't like it, she could mark the case for trial.

Lots of people talk big about what they are going to demand and get
and you can TRY to add anything you want to anyting you want, but you
aint gonna get it.

TURTLE, stick to plumbing.

-v.

This is Turtle.

You may not have seen business owners in courts but I will say very few business
owner will get into a court room with a customer that might win. Now if your
talking old bob's house of Furniture which ia about to go bankrupt and don't
give a damn. Yes he can fight it and don't worry about it. The quickest way to
loose customers is to have your company name listed on a Law suite in a Court
Room with some customer that a few other people know and get to see the Bad PR
come out. It can be bad or good words but the company name being dragged into a
law suite is not good business at all. I own a business and the last thing I
want to see is my company name in a court room and the mud slinging going on. By
what you say , I know you don't run a business because every business owner
knows the majic words. Keep your ass out of a law suites at all cost. To say you
will make a point of showing the customer something is not good business at all
and shows you will not last long in the business world. When you take the time
to teach a customer about law suites and show them they can't win. Your business
will get killed from Bad PR, Time waisted, and while your showing a customer
about the laws of the state, your business is being left unattended.

TURTLE

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:08:27 -0500, someone wrote:


You may not have seen business owners in courts...

??? I see businesses in court all the time. Sometimes they win, and
sometimes they lose. Since you own a business and say you will do
almost anything to stay out of court, I'd say that I have seen who's
in court much more than you have. Businesses don't waste their time
and money in court unless the case is worth it and they think they
have a good chance of winning, but businesses that are afraid to go to
court when they should, become ATM machines because word gets out that
they can be ripped off. Some business have tried the "stay out of
court" strategy and gotten clobbered until they took up a "litigate to
the max" strategy to avoid constantly paying questionable claims.

... I know you don't run a business because every business owner
knows the majic words.

Actually, I run a number of businesses and presently have
approximately 140 employees. How many do you have?


Keep your ass out of a law suites at all cost. To say you
will make a point of showing the customer something is not good business at all

But that is not what I said. YOU said the customer (who has been
offered credit on an exchange), should instead hire a mover to bring
back the furniture, and then demand the mover's fee also. Is that
what YOU would do, a customer doesn't like the color of the PVC you
put in, so hires another plumber to remove them all, and a trucker to
take them and dump them in your yard, so you would pay those two bills
plus a refund too, all because you are afraid of court????

Sure you try to settle up with a customer, but some can't be
reasonably satisfied, and it doesn't help the cutomer to pile on
unrealistic and unreasonable demands over and above the original
dispute. I think realistically this customer might get a 100% credit,
or maybe a 90% refund, but not BOTH a full refund AND "extra" charges.

Any business of any size gets sued or threatened with suit some
amount of the time, its part of being in business to weed the wheat
from the chaff, not just give up every time you are threatened. But
maybe this is way over your head.

-v.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:08:27 -0500, someone wrote:


You may not have seen business owners in courts...

??? I see businesses in court all the time. Sometimes they win, and
sometimes they lose. Since you own a business and say you will do
almost anything to stay out of court, I'd say that I have seen who's
in court much more than you have. Businesses don't waste their time
and money in court unless the case is worth it and they think they
have a good chance of winning, but businesses that are afraid to go to
court when they should, become ATM machines because word gets out that
they can be ripped off. Some business have tried the "stay out of
court" strategy and gotten clobbered until they took up a "litigate to
the max" strategy to avoid constantly paying questionable claims.

... I know you don't run a business because every business owner
knows the majic words.

Actually, I run a number of businesses and presently have
approximately 140 employees. How many do you have?


Keep your ass out of a law suites at all cost. To say you
will make a point of showing the customer something is not good business at
all

But that is not what I said. YOU said the customer (who has been
offered credit on an exchange), should instead hire a mover to bring
back the furniture, and then demand the mover's fee also. Is that
what YOU would do, a customer doesn't like the color of the PVC you
put in, so hires another plumber to remove them all, and a trucker to
take them and dump them in your yard, so you would pay those two bills
plus a refund too, all because you are afraid of court????

Sure you try to settle up with a customer, but some can't be
reasonably satisfied, and it doesn't help the cutomer to pile on
unrealistic and unreasonable demands over and above the original
dispute. I think realistically this customer might get a 100% credit,
or maybe a 90% refund, but not BOTH a full refund AND "extra" charges.

Any business of any size gets sued or threatened with suit some
amount of the time, its part of being in business to weed the wheat
from the chaff, not just give up every time you are threatened. But
maybe this is way over your head.

-v.

This is Turtle.

You see business in court all the time as you say. If You will check to see
there is very little court business is over transaction as far as product
exchanges or fair shakes over product. You will see all kinds of business in
courts over getting hurt in the store, over the manufactor will not make good on
a product, or a employee getting fired ,but it is rare you see a exchange of a
product in the court room. The only companys you see there with exchange of a
product is off the wall companys that don't give a damn about future business
for when you get there you have lost the customer + atleast 4 to 10 other people
that know that customer. Word of mouth is going to eat you alive. Just file on
Walmarts and they will settle way before you get to a court room. Now this is on
a product return or return policy and not they fired your ass.

If you would like to see a example of this is K-Mart back when they got in
trouble. they had a policy of sell it and don't take it back. They got a lesson
in product return and the word of mouth theory and how it works. They changed
out the CEO and the head staff and started over with a new view.

Yes I know your a big product sales company man and know how to teach customers
how the game is plaied but you might be in trouble and if you did not know it. I
just can't believe you don't know the rules of the game being a big company
owner and operator.

TURTLE

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:13:54 -0500, someone wrote:


.... Just file on
Walmarts and they will settle way before you get to a court room.

I wonder which bar stool you are getting your information from. I
have seen Walmart go to trial on a product return case. My sympathy
was with the customer, and Walmart lost. But its not like they are
afraid to go to court. They really did think they had caught a
customer (who didn't speak English very well, so this may have
contributed to the misunderstanding) trying to rip them off on a fake
product return. However, the court believed the customer (so did I).


just can't believe you don't know the rules of the game being a big company
owner and operator.

Ah, TURTLE, we will never agree. However, what I own are several
small businesses - but that depends on your definition. Some people
say under $1m/yr. sales is small, I'd say under $10m is small, and
that medium is $10m to $99.9m, with over $100m being large. We have
over 100,000 customer transactions per month and though we try, not
every customer can be satisfied. We approach complaints as customer
recovery opportunities - but not every customer can be, nor is worth,
being recovered. I just gave an authorization today to issue a
"trespass order" against an abusive customer - if he comes back, he
will be arrested.

You are apparently a simple man who can only understand simple rules,
so if you turn and run any time someone threatens to sue you, so be
it. In ten years we have only actually had one suit filed against us,
and they eventually abandoned their action, we were not interested in
settlement and wanted it heard. We have been 'threatened' with suits
some greater amount of time but nothing came of it. At some point
maybe we will be wrong and go to court and not win, and we do try to
settle complaints at the customer recovery level, but no business can
get very large (and hang onto its money) by being afraid to go to
court when it is called for.

Let's get back to the original point - its not gonna help the guy get
the settlement he wants (refund), to add on unreasonable extra
charges. And you have never addressed that because you can't, you
just change the subject.

You may be a decent plumber but you are one strange guy!

-v.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 23:13:54 -0500, someone wrote:


.... Just file on
Walmarts and they will settle way before you get to a court room.

I wonder which bar stool you are getting your information from. I
have seen Walmart go to trial on a product return case. My sympathy
was with the customer, and Walmart lost. But its not like they are
afraid to go to court. They really did think they had caught a
customer (who didn't speak English very well, so this may have
contributed to the misunderstanding) trying to rip them off on a fake
product return. However, the court believed the customer (so did I).


just can't believe you don't know the rules of the game being a big company
owner and operator.

Ah, TURTLE, we will never agree. However, what I own are several
small businesses - but that depends on your definition. Some people
say under $1m/yr. sales is small, I'd say under $10m is small, and
that medium is $10m to $99.9m, with over $100m being large. We have
over 100,000 customer transactions per month and though we try, not
every customer can be satisfied. We approach complaints as customer
recovery opportunities - but not every customer can be, nor is worth,
being recovered. I just gave an authorization today to issue a
"trespass order" against an abusive customer - if he comes back, he
will be arrested.

You are apparently a simple man who can only understand simple rules,
so if you turn and run any time someone threatens to sue you, so be
it. In ten years we have only actually had one suit filed against us,
and they eventually abandoned their action, we were not interested in
settlement and wanted it heard. We have been 'threatened' with suits
some greater amount of time but nothing came of it. At some point
maybe we will be wrong and go to court and not win, and we do try to
settle complaints at the customer recovery level, but no business can
get very large (and hang onto its money) by being afraid to go to
court when it is called for.

Let's get back to the original point - its not gonna help the guy get
the settlement he wants (refund), to add on unreasonable extra
charges. And you have never addressed that because you can't, you
just change the subject.

You may be a decent plumber but you are one strange guy!

-v.

This is Turtle.

With what was stated here was true and it was about my HVAC business. I would
not get in a court room with it. The offer they made was a good try to recoupe
some of the loses and is not worth keeping to get in a court room with. If the
product was not what he ordered you take it back and smile. All 50 states have
refund policys but if it is not what you ordered --- You take it back or get
what he wanted. Go back and read what the O.P. stated and it will not come
under restocking fee but under Goods not delivered as to Spec.s or
Non-proformace of product. A example of this is you order a New Chevy car and
when it is delivered to you it is a Chevy S-10 pick-up. Then you say hey if you
can't get me the car I want , i want my money back. Then the dealership tells
you i will have to pay a 10% restocking fee because you ordered it and we screw
it up but you got to pay for the screw up.

I have been in a court room 2 times in my life over products and won one and
Semi-lost one. The one i semi-lost was over a hvac system that I installed
manufactored by Dunn & Bush for Dunn & Bush went belly up. Dunn & bush would not
furnish the compressor for being bankrupt and I offered to furnish the
compressor free [ $400.00 out of my pocket ] but the customer was required to
pay for labor $250.00. The customer wanted me to furnish a new condenser unit
for free and install it for free. It went to court and the judge made my offer
stand and made the customer pay for the court cost. At the time $500.00 was the
limit on small claims court and had to go to regular court. I did not hire a
lawyer but was advised by one before letting it go to court. I went a head and
changed the compressor for the customer but required Cash up front before
starting and Cheaper Bristol and not a Copland. If you see me in a court room,
I'm going to win or atleast get what I want. Any dought in my mine, I will
settle up before court.

You stated that you seen Walmarts in court one time. they do have idiots working
for them but let Walmarts get to going to court all the time and you will see a
new manager in his place in a little while. There is the old rules of business
and it says keep your ass out of court rooms at all cost because it hurts your
business every time you go there. If you see yourself going to court rooms all
the time. Your doing something wrong and you need to change something.

TURTLE