"Dottie" wrote in message
ps.com...
Would someone please tell me how to calculate how many appliances could
be run at once on x size generator? Do I need to know how many watts
the refrigerator uses or is it something else ... volts? And each fan?
I suppose I should know this, but I don't. I am saving these answers
in a Word file so I will know what to do when I need it later. Thanks.


You add up the average Watts needed and also check that the
surge current (or peak Watts) is within the peak rating of
the generator.

When certain things like refrigerators first turn on they
draw a large surge of current.

Also you can't just plug the generator into a house outlet.
It must be isolated from the regular power mains. You either
have to plug everything to the generator on a separate line
or you need to install a power-switching device.

Here's some simple stuff that might help explain what you
need to know.
http://www.sdge.com/forms/portablegenerators.pdf

This paper illustrates graphically how the current of a
refrigerator varies over time.
http://www.onsetcomp.com/Newsletters...omepower76.pdf

Don

Dottie wrote

Would someone please tell me how to calculate how many
appliances could be run at once on x size generator?

That is surprisingly difficult.

Do I need to know how many watts the refrigerator uses

No, the main problem is the startup current that devices like
that take and that isnt even mentioned on the compliance plate.

or is it something else ... volts?

Nope, that bit is easy.

And each fan?

Again, the main problem is the startup current and that
isnt easy to determine and it makes a difference if you
are happy to turn them on one by one once the generator
is running or if you want to be able to just throw the switch
and have everything all start up at once. You need a rather
bigger generator if you want to be able to use it like that.

I suppose I should know this, but I don't. I am saving these answers
in a Word file so I will know what to do when I need it later.

Unfortunately there is no nice tidy answer.

user wrote:

Seltzer water usually is cheaper than the bottled spring water, at least
in the single sizes. Frequently safeway puts their seltzer water on sale
at 6 twelve ounce cans for $.99. Th only thing that beats that is gallon
"milk" jugs, and the plastic in those does not seem as durable.


The water goes on sale a lot. I just got a 24 pack of 16.9 oz bottles
for $3.99. Same price as the seltzer you mentioned, but larger bottles.
And they go on sale frequently.

I like to freeze my water, so I usually stick a case of the water on
the bottom shelf and pull them out as needed. If teh weather is stormy,
I make sure it is full. If the power goes out for a day or so, my ice
will keep stuff cold enough.

On 23 Feb 2006 10:26:17 -0800, someone wrote:


Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply.,,,

Hmm, I probably have a week's worth just any thime at randome anyway.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

v wrote
someone wrote

Commends and suggestions are appreciated.
FYI, I'm only aiming for a week or two supply.,,,

Hmm, I probably have a week's worth just any thime at randome anyway.

I've always got at least a month or more, just because I prefer
to do the major food shopping run every couple of months just
because its too boring to bother with more often.

Power is never ever out for even a full day here, so I dont
even need to bother with power for the freezers etc. They
idle fine thru what power outages we do get.

And when I do run out of something, its no
big deal to use something else instead.

The beer supply shows in the database as due to run out in Mar-07,
mainly because I prefer to let it age properly before drinking it.

What is common in my area - not really an emergency, but happens, is for the
electricity to go out for a couple of days.

And we quickly see who is prepared for this and who is not.

Some people have no heating and can't cook. Others have heating and can
cook.

Simple as that!

Multiple radios including non-headset types so you can hear both the
radio and other people.


--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell

Flashlights that plug into an outlet and go on as soon as there is no
power.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell

George Grapman wrote

Flashlights that plug into an outlet and go on as soon as there is no
power.

Best if they only come on when there is no power and no light tho.

Easy to waste the charge if the power goes out early in the day etc.

Thought I would jump here and add a little, sense this is an area that
I have looked into.

As to food for storage for emergencies, look at canned and boxed foods
that you have already fed the kids.
That way you will know if they will eat it or not.

Just use the "Best by" date to tell when things should get replaced.
Not that it is not eatable after that date, just that it is a simple
way to keep track.

Also, as to things that require milk, get powdered milk and keep it on
a shelf.
It lasts a long time.

As to Mayonnaise, get a jar of sailed dressing.
It does not require refrigeration, Mayo does.
And get the squeeze bottles so that you do not contaminate it with a
dirty spoon.

Some mac and cheese has the cheese in a squeeze pouch.
That is easiest, but the cheep stuff is plenty good with powdered milk
and margarine instead of fresh milk and butter.

There are some canned meats out there, but most are not all that good
if eaten alone.
You can mix it with chicken or hamburger helper and make pretty eatable
food.

Also, hamburger helper can be used with any type of meat.
Not just hamburger.
So canned ham or canned chicken will work just fine.

Also look into peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
I forget if jelly or jam is the one that does not require
refrigeration.

Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

That is a start.

"nina" wrote:
The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Not me, I've been known to eat the same stuff every day for years at a
time. Then I'll switch to different stuff every day for a few more
years....


--

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

....James Cabell

Whatever you do, don't forget to have an adequate supply of any
critical medications that you or anyone in your family takes. Also,
don't forget to always have food on hand for your pets.

On 3 Mar 2006 05:09:31 -0800, "nina" wrote:


Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape after that
much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't have
to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

Don
The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

You'd be surprised how an empty belly cures a lackluster appetite. In
such an event, the goal is survival, not a gourmet dining experience.

See http://www.lacetoleather.com/hom.html for an example of a
household survival kit inventory.

On 3 Mar 2006 09:02:19 -0800, "CanopyCo" wrote:

Thought I would jump here and add a little, sense this is an area that
I have looked into.

As to food for storage for emergencies, look at canned and boxed foods
that you have already fed the kids.
That way you will know if they will eat it or not.

Just use the "Best by" date to tell when things should get replaced.
Not that it is not eatable after that date, just that it is a simple
way to keep track.

Also, as to things that require milk, get powdered milk and keep it on
a shelf.
It lasts a long time.

As to Mayonnaise, get a jar of sailed dressing.
It does not require refrigeration, Mayo does.
And get the squeeze bottles so that you do not contaminate it with a
dirty spoon.

Some mac and cheese has the cheese in a squeeze pouch.
That is easiest, but the cheep stuff is plenty good with powdered milk
and margarine instead of fresh milk and butter.

There are some canned meats out there, but most are not all that good
if eaten alone.
You can mix it with chicken or hamburger helper and make pretty eatable
food.

Also, hamburger helper can be used with any type of meat.
Not just hamburger.
So canned ham or canned chicken will work just fine.

Also look into peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
I forget if jelly or jam is the one that does not require
refrigeration.

Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

That is a start.


If you've got a fereezer to keep fresh bread on hand, you might as
well allow for keeping mayo in the fridge next to it - but when it
comes to down-and-dirty survival, anyone who insists on fresh bread
and mayo (and having the crusts cut off the sandwich) isn't hungry
enough. Let him skip a meal or two, living off the fat of the land.

In article . com,
CanopyCo wrote:
[ ... ]
Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea. If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


Gary

--
Gary Heston I don't need an iPod, I have an IQ.

A worthwhile endeavour:
http://www.thebrestcancersite.com/cg...jects/CTDSites

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 10:32:38 -0800, Steve wrote:

"nina" wrote:
The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Not me, I've been known to eat the same stuff every day for years at a
time. Then I'll switch to different stuff every day for a few more
years....

You sound like me, especially for leftovers.

(Gary Heston) wrote:

In article . com,
CanopyCo wrote:
[ ... ]
Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea. If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


Gary

I was surprised to find that breadmakers use only a very small amount
of power to make bread. I plugged ours into a KAW, and was amazed at
the readings, not much more than the power needed for a few slices of
toast. If we lose power after another hurricane we will probably make
bread with the breadmaker running on the genny or battery power.

nina wrote:

Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote:

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape after that
much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't have
to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Nobody is going to starve to death in 4 weeks. If you get hungry you'll eat
boring food. If you're hungry enough you'll even eat disgusting food. I
don't want to think about what comes after that...

--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala,
it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet." -- Anon.

The Real Bev wrote:

nina wrote:

Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote:

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape after that
much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't have
to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Nobody is going to starve to death in 4 weeks. If you get hungry you'll eat
boring food. If you're hungry enough you'll even eat disgusting food. I
don't want to think about what comes after that...

Small lawyers?

Gary Heston wrote:

CanopyCo wrote:
[ ... ]
Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

My grandma called that a "breadboard". You can still get them. They don't
bake it, though.

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea. If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.

Crackers are good. Even Twinkies will provide needed calories in a pinch, and
there is no known method of destruction short of digestion that will hurt them.

--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala,
it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet." -- Anon.

wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

nina wrote:

Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote:

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape after that
much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't have
to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Nobody is going to starve to death in 4 weeks. If you get hungry you'll eat
boring food. If you're hungry enough you'll even eat disgusting food. I
don't want to think about what comes after that...

Small lawyers?

No point. They eat their own.

--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala,
it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet." -- Anon.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 05:57:32 GMT, wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

nina wrote:

Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote:

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming for a
week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape after that
much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't have
to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke down
yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety in food.

Nobody is going to starve to death in 4 weeks. If you get hungry you'll eat
boring food. If you're hungry enough you'll even eat disgusting food. I
don't want to think about what comes after that...

Small lawyers?

Are you kidding? We'd have to spend the rest of the week sitting
around licking our balls just to get the taste out of our mouths.

The Real Bev wrote:
nina wrote:

Don K wrote:
"CJ" wrote:

Commends and suggestions are appreciated. FYI, I'm only aiming
for a week or two supply. I figure if things aren't back in shape
after that much time, we're all screwed anyway....

There was some discussion on Meet the Press about bird flu, and
that if there ever was a pandemic outbreak in your area, it would be
a good idea to be able to just stay home for 3 or 4 weeks and avoid
exposure until it blows over.

Presumably in that situation, there may still be services operating
such as water, power, etc. and many things may still be functioning,
but you would be better off if you had enough supplies and didn't
have to leave your house.

In such a situation, I wouldn't worry about being bored with what
I had to eat.

The problem is that people, especially children, when bored with the
same food begin to find it so unappetizing that they cannot choke
down yet another bite of it. You do need a certain amount of variety
in food.

Nobody is going to starve to death in 4 weeks. If you get hungry
you'll eat boring food. If you're hungry enough you'll even eat
disgusting food. I don't want to think about what comes after that...

They start eating each other, silly.

Bob Ward wrote:


If you've got a fereezer to keep fresh bread on hand, you might as
well allow for keeping mayo in the fridge next to it - but when it
comes to down-and-dirty survival, anyone who insists on fresh bread
and mayo (and having the crusts cut off the sandwich) isn't hungry
enough. Let him skip a meal or two, living off the fat of the land.

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Also, there will likely be no loss of electricity during a bird flue
pandemic, but you still will not want to run to the store and get bread
baked by sick cooks.

Also, there is no need for the fridge at all if electricity is lost due
to an ice storm.

And this is all for use before you get so low as down and dirty
survival.
No reason to drop back to the stone age before it is forced on us.

And one solution will not work for every problem, thus the reason for
stocking for both loss of electricity as well as just a loss of ability
to go to town.

Gary Heston wrote:

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

No, but there are gas powered generators.
Not to mention that just because you cannot or should not go to town is
no indication that the power will be off.


A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea.

You will still need a way to cook it.
Maybe something like a bread maker, powered by a generator that is also
keeping your freezer up to speed?
Ran once a day to maintain several different things.

If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

But you still may not want to go to town threw the ice storm or the
bird flue pandemic.


Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


That is not a bad idea either.
Depends on what a person wants to eat during the bad times.

Keeping your diet pleasant will help with stress during a disaster.
Disasters are depressing.
So is eating ****ty food.

Who needs double depressing?

On 4 Mar 2006 13:28:59 -0800, "CanopyCo" wrote:

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Have you checked your figures on this? I don't think the freezer will
stay frozen running a generator once a day - unless you are counting
24 hours as once.

CanopyCo wrote
Bob Ward wrote:

If you've got a fereezer to keep fresh bread on hand, you might as
well allow for keeping mayo in the fridge next to it - but when it
comes to down-and-dirty survival, anyone who insists on fresh bread
and mayo (and having the crusts cut off the sandwich) isn't hungry
enough. Let him skip a meal or two, living off the fat of the land.

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.

Depends on the fridge. Mine doesnt.

And a generator ran once a day will keep the
freezer up, but will do nothing for the refrigerator.

See above.

Also, there will likely be no loss of electricity during a bird flue
pandemic,

Depends on the source of what is used to generate the power.

but you still will not want to run to the store
and get bread baked by sick cooks.

It aint the cooks that are the problem, its all the other monkeys.

Also, there is no need for the fridge at all
if electricity is lost due to an ice storm.

And this is all for use before you get so low as down and dirty survival.

No reason to drop back to the stone age before it is forced on us.

And one solution will not work for every problem,
thus the reason for stocking for both loss of electricity
as well as just a loss of ability to go to town.

Covering the first will normally automatically cover the second fine.

Bob Ward wrote:
On 4 Mar 2006 13:28:59 -0800, "CanopyCo" wrote:

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Have you checked your figures on this? I don't think the
freezer will stay frozen running a generator once a day

It will anyway.

- unless you are counting 24 hours as once.

No freezer runs 24 hours a day. All you need to do is run
the generator for as long as the freezer normally runs per day.

CanopyCo wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

No, but there are gas powered generators.
Not to mention that just because you cannot or should not go to town
is no indication that the power will be off.


A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a
freezer or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea.

You will still need a way to cook it.
Maybe something like a bread maker, powered by a generator that is
also keeping your freezer up to speed?
Ran once a day to maintain several different things.

If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

But you still may not want to go to town threw the ice storm or the
bird flue pandemic.


Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


That is not a bad idea either.
Depends on what a person wants to eat during the bad times.

Keeping your diet pleasant will help with stress during a disaster.
Disasters are depressing.

Not necessarily, some find they give them something
to do thats unusual enough to not be depressing at all.

So is eating ****ty food.

No it isnt. And there's a difference
between what's not ideal and ****ty too.

Who needs double depressing?

Most of us will survive that fine even if it does happen.

Bob Ward wrote:
On 4 Mar 2006 13:28:59 -0800, "CanopyCo" wrote:

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Have you checked your figures on this? I don't think the freezer will
stay frozen running a generator once a day - unless you are counting
24 hours as once.

He didn't say it would stay frozen. He said it would stay good, which
would mean the food is still edible. Stuff will probably gradually
thaw out, but you can leave most of the stuff for a while at a few
degrees over freezing after it's completely thawed out, and it will take
some time for it to get to the point where it has thawed.

- Logan

CanopyCo wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea.

You will still need a way to cook it.
Maybe something like a bread maker, powered by a generator that is also
keeping your freezer up to speed?

Call me crazy, but what about just living without bread until the emergency
is over? It's not as if bread is the only food that contains some crucial
nutrient that you can't live without. Some areas/cultures don't even have
bread as part of their cuisine, or at least they don't have leavened bread.
Some people can't eat wheat, and yet they somehow manage to survive.

- Logan

Logan Shaw wrote
Bob Ward wrote
CanopyCo wrote

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Have you checked your figures on this? I don't think the freezer will
stay frozen running a generator once a day - unless you are counting 24
hours as once.

He didn't say it would stay frozen. He said it would stay good, which
would mean the food is still edible. Stuff will probably gradually thaw
out,

No it wouldnt as long as you have the freezer on the generator
for as long as it normally does run on mains power.

but you can leave most of the stuff for a while at a few degrees over
freezing after it's completely thawed out, and it will take some time for
it to get to the point where it has thawed.

Yep, that latent heat is a lot more than what usually
leaks past the insulation with the contents frozen.

Logan Shaw wrote:
CanopyCo wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a
freezer or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea.

You will still need a way to cook it.
Maybe something like a bread maker, powered by a generator that is
also keeping your freezer up to speed?

Call me crazy, but what about just living without bread until the
emergency is over? It's not as if bread is the only food that
contains some crucial nutrient that you can't live without.

There aint any of those if the power is out
for a couple of weeks or even a month.

Some areas/cultures don't even have bread as part of their cuisine,

Yep, makes more sense to eat other stuff when there is no power.

or at least they don't have leavened bread. Some people can't eat wheat,
and yet they somehow manage to survive.

Yep, anyone can go without bread fine for weeks.

Corse they may choose to make bread because they prefer it too.
If you're gunna run the generator for a few hours a day to keep the
freezer frozen, you might as well run the breadmaker at the same
time and have nice fresh bread to eat as well.

And it aint academic, many of those who 'live' in mobile homes and
RVs use bread machines and microwaves in them. Works fine.

The bread machine will work fine on a decent solar system too.

Bob Ward wrote:
On 4 Mar 2006 13:28:59 -0800, "CanopyCo" wrote:

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.
And a generator ran once a day will keep the freezer up, but will do
nothing for the refrigerator.

Have you checked your figures on this? I don't think the freezer will
stay frozen running a generator once a day - unless you are counting
24 hours as once.

There are several variables involved in this, so YMMV.
However, my _chest_ type freezer is set to close to max normally.
This freezes things really solid.
And opening the lid will not dump out all the cold air like an upright
freezer will.

My chest freezer has kept stuff frozen for two days by just keeping the
lit shut.

No ad to this running the generator twice a day until the freezer shuts
of on its own and it will stay frozen indefinitely.

Rod Speed wrote:
CanopyCo wrote
Bob Ward wrote:

If you've got a fereezer to keep fresh bread on hand, you might as
well allow for keeping mayo in the fridge next to it - but when it
comes to down-and-dirty survival, anyone who insists on fresh bread
and mayo (and having the crusts cut off the sandwich) isn't hungry
enough. Let him skip a meal or two, living off the fat of the land.

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.

Depends on the fridge. Mine doesnt.

Really?
You must not go to the fridge as much as I do.
I have a really bad habit of getting bord and fanning the fridge door
looking for something that was not there last time I looked.

"There must be something in there good to eat" type of thing.

Once you open the door, all the cold air falls out in an upright fridge
/ freezer.


And a generator ran once a day will keep the
freezer up, but will do nothing for the refrigerator.

See above.

Also, there will likely be no loss of electricity during a bird flue
pandemic,

Depends on the source of what is used to generate the power.


True, as well as depending on the people involved in keeping it going.

But still, that is less likely to loose power as quickly as, say, an
earth quake or ice storm.

but you still will not want to run to the store
and get bread baked by sick cooks.

It aint the cooks that are the problem, its all the other monkeys.


Yep, all them monkeys that touch the food before you get it.

Also, there is no need for the fridge at all
if electricity is lost due to an ice storm.

And this is all for use before you get so low as down and dirty survival.

No reason to drop back to the stone age before it is forced on us.

And one solution will not work for every problem,
thus the reason for stocking for both loss of electricity
as well as just a loss of ability to go to town.

Covering the first will normally automatically cover the second fine.

Yes, covering no power at all will cover power but no transport, but it
will not be a pleasant a covering.

"CanopyCo" wrote in message
ups.com...
What I am saying is that you can plan ahead a little and not be
required to do without anything that you would really notice.

But hay, if you really want to do without things, then do without them.

It's all a matter of defining your goals and the trade-offs
you want to make to achieve them. First you define the length
of time you would like the ability to be self-sufficient and
the degree of self-sufficiency (no power, no water, etc).

Then you start making trade-offs and compromises to achieve
those goals. How much money, space and effort do you want to
spend building up that self-sufficient stockpile.

Keep in mind that for comparable investments in stock, the
boring food would probably last twice as long as something
more tasty. When you run out of gourmet meals, you may
wish you has stocked more peanut butter and crackers instead.

Don

CanopyCo wrote
Rod Speed wrote
CanopyCo wrote
Bob Ward wrote:

If you've got a fereezer to keep fresh bread on hand, you might as
well allow for keeping mayo in the fridge next to it - but when it
comes to down-and-dirty survival, anyone who insists on fresh bread
and mayo (and having the crusts cut off the sandwich) isn't hungry
enough. Let him skip a meal or two, living off the fat of the land.

The freezer will stay for several days before it goes bad.
The refrigerator will go bad in one day.

Depends on the fridge. Mine doesnt.

Really?
You must not go to the fridge as much as I do.
I have a really bad habit of getting bord and fanning the fridge door
looking for something that was not there last time I looked.

"There must be something in there good to eat" type of thing.

Yeah, I never ever do that. I know what's in the fridge near enough.

Once you open the door, all the cold air falls out in an upright
fridge / freezer.

Sure, but that doesnt necessarily mean that the food in the
fridge will go bad. I've normally got the fridge well stocked
so that stuff has a much higher thermal mass than the air.

And a generator ran once a day will keep the
freezer up, but will do nothing for the refrigerator.

See above.

Also, there will likely be no loss of electricity during a bird flue
pandemic,

Depends on the source of what is used to generate the power.

True, as well as depending on the people involved in keeping it going.

Yeah, tho its likely that if they do want to minimise their personal
risk in that situation they should be able to find enough monkeys
to camp in the power station for the duration etc.

But still, that is less likely to loose power as
quickly as, say, an earth quake or ice storm.

Yeah, specially when they would normally be able to ring the
reluctant monkeys and tell them that if they dont come in to
work, they need not bother to show up at the power station again.

but you still will not want to run to the store
and get bread baked by sick cooks.

It aint the cooks that are the problem, its all the other monkeys.

Yep, all them monkeys that touch the food before you get it.

The bigger problem is all those other monkeys buying
food just standing in line at the checkouts etc.

Also, there is no need for the fridge at all
if electricity is lost due to an ice storm.

And this is all for use before you get so low as down and dirty
survival.

No reason to drop back to the stone age before it is forced on us.

And one solution will not work for every problem,
thus the reason for stocking for both loss of electricity
as well as just a loss of ability to go to town.

Covering the first will normally automatically cover the second fine.

Yes, covering no power at all will cover power but
no transport, but it will not be a pleasant a covering.

Sure, but who cares about pleasant with a 50 year type event ?

CanopyCo wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
CanopyCo wrote:
Gary Heston wrote:

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

No, but there are gas powered generators.
Not to mention that just because you cannot or should not go to town
is no indication that the power will be off.


A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a
freezer or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea.

You will still need a way to cook it.
Maybe something like a bread maker, powered by a generator that is
also keeping your freezer up to speed?
Ran once a day to maintain several different things.

If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

But you still may not want to go to town threw the ice storm or the
bird flue pandemic.


Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


That is not a bad idea either.
Depends on what a person wants to eat during the bad times.

Keeping your diet pleasant will help with stress during a disaster.
Disasters are depressing.

Not necessarily, some find they give them something
to do thats unusual enough to not be depressing at all.

So is eating ****ty food.

No it isnt. And there's a difference
between what's not ideal and ****ty too.

Who needs double depressing?

Most of us will survive that fine even if it does happen.

However some of us wish to live instead of just surviving.

Perfectly possible to live fine without '****ty food'

You go ahead and live under a rock and eat worms.

Never ever said anything like that. In fact I said that if you
are going to run the generator to keep the freezer and
fridge cold, you might as well run the bread machine too.

I am going to eat what I always eat,

I wouldnt go that far, I'm happy to eat differently when
I go camping than when I'm at home for example.

and live in a comfortable house.

I choose not to do that at times too, most obviously when camping.

We will both survive.

And some like the difference for a while too as long as the
difference doesnt last too long. A week or two is no big deal.

Even a couple of months or more if there is some grossly infectious
disease that is killing a very high percentage of people etc. The risk
of that is so low that there isnt any point in ensuring that you can go
6 months without going out of the house, just accept the fact that if
you need to stay there that long, that it wont be identical to how you
normally do things.

"Gary Heston" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
CanopyCo wrote:
[ ... ]
Bread is going to be a problem, considering that most like fresh bread.
You can store bread in the freezer if you want, or learn to bake it.
A bread maker is great for that.

There are hand-cranked breadmakers?

A supply of flour and cornmeal, yeast, and baking soda kept in a freezer
or in very well sealed containers might be a better idea. If you have
power for a breadmaker, you'll have it for refrigeration.

Laying in a supply of crackers would be a good idea. As long as the
inner bag isn't opened, they'll keep for a long time.


Gary

None of those things actually needs refrigeration if used regularly. All
you need to make bread is two hands, a big bowl and some way to bake it.

Ms P

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Call me crazy, but what about just living without bread until the
emergency
is over? It's not as if bread is the only food that contains some crucial
nutrient that you can't live without. Some areas/cultures don't even have
bread as part of their cuisine, or at least they don't have leavened
bread.
Some people can't eat wheat, and yet they somehow manage to survive.

- Logan

There's no need at all to go without bread. People have been making bread
for several millennia without electricity or gas. It can be made entirely
by hand and baked in a wood fired oven. It's not like it's hard to do.

Ms P