John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:27:21 -0400, John Popelish
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
it's 280 pF!
I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
characteristics.

"Back diode" is interesting, too. They are, to my knowledge, the only
germanium diodes made using an ic-type mask process, and about the
only Ge diodes still made at all, except for photodiodes of course.
They are still the best microwave detectors.

Yes, interesting, but not very much like the characteristics
of 1N23.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

On Apr 23, 1:27 pm, John Popelish wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
it's 280 pF!

I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
characteristics.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

HSMS-2850 is about 0.2V @ 1mA, but it also has a PIV rating of just 2
volts. Capacitance is considerably less than that CMMSH1-20, though.
I don't have any point-contact diodes to compare it with, but can tell
you that it's useful for detecting RF down to a bit below 100uV,
possibly less if you're careful with thermal potentials and the like,
or chop the signal.

Cheers,
Tom

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:09:10 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , JosephKK wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK wrote:

On 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey wrote:

Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found
said they were silicon.

The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

What test?

V(f) @ 1 mA. Result 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.

I have seen silicon schottky diodes that drop about .3 volt at 1 amp.

- Don Klipstein )

Not arguing that. Would that diode make a good microwave detector?

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:04:37 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:10 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey
wrote:

On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article ,
"JosephKK" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
wrote:

Hi!

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

What I would be interested in is as follows:

-type numbers of the diodes

---
1N23 is a good place to start.

---
Oops... brain fart.

The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.

JF

Not only that it was germanium not silicon.

Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.


The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

What test?

John

V(f) @ 1 mA. Result 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.


Here are some curves from the RadLab book:

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadLabDiodes.JPG

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadDiode2.JPG

Your data point is dead on the point-contact Silicon diode curve.

John

Say what you will. I was playing with 1950's (or older) parts in the
1960's. All the datasheets back then said Ge. Compare proper
contemporaneous parts.

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:20:37 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , JosephKK wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.

Thanks,
Rich

Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.

The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.

John

Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.

I am on a temporary setup now that does not have Acrobat, but I somewhat
remember Vishay-IR STPS1L30UPBF or 1N5818 dropping maybe .35 volt at 1
amp. These are 30 volt 1 amp Schottky rectifiers.

- Don Klipstein )

Two things, these are "modern" parts. Did the equivalent exist in the
1940's or 1950's? Do they make good microwave detector diodes? I
think not. Use time and use appropriate devices for comparison.

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Bruhns
wrote:

On Apr 23, 1:27 pm, John Popelish wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
it's 280 pF!

I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
characteristics.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

HSMS-2850 is about 0.2V @ 1mA, but it also has a PIV rating of just 2
volts. Capacitance is considerably less than that CMMSH1-20, though.
I don't have any point-contact diodes to compare it with, but can tell
you that it's useful for detecting RF down to a bit below 100uV,
possibly less if you're careful with thermal potentials and the like,
or chop the signal.

Cheers,
Tom

I am getting a little tired so may blatting about modern parts as if
they were available in the 1940'sand 1950's. The question is "What
were the original parts made of?"

Newer implementations is, at best, a side issue.

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:51:25 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.

Thanks,
Rich

Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.

The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.

John

Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.

---
I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

JF

And what is the junction capacitance and does it make a good microwave
mixer?

JosephKK wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Bruhns
wrote:

HSMS-2850 is about 0.2V @ 1mA, but it also has a PIV rating of just 2
volts. Capacitance is considerably less than that CMMSH1-20, though.
I don't have any point-contact diodes to compare it with, but can tell
you that it's useful for detecting RF down to a bit below 100uV,
possibly less if you're careful with thermal potentials and the like,
or chop the signal.

Cheers,
Tom

I am getting a little tired so may blatting about modern parts as if
they were available in the 1940'sand 1950's. The question is "What
were the original parts made of?"

Newer implementations is, at best, a side issue.

Were germanium PN junction diodes of the period (or any
later period) good microwave detectors? I thought they were
pretty slow.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:42:57 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:04:37 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:10 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey
wrote:

On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article ,
"JosephKK" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
wrote:

Hi!

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

What I would be interested in is as follows:

-type numbers of the diodes

---
1N23 is a good place to start.

---
Oops... brain fart.

The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.

JF

Not only that it was germanium not silicon.

Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.


The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

What test?

John

V(f) @ 1 mA. Result 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.


Here are some curves from the RadLab book:

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadLabDiodes.JPG

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadDiode2.JPG

Your data point is dead on the point-contact Silicon diode curve.

John

Say what you will. I was playing with 1950's (or older) parts in the
1960's. All the datasheets back then said Ge. Compare proper
contemporaneous parts.


Well, I'm sure your memory is more accurate than my books and
datasheets.

John

John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:42:57 -0700, JosephKK

Say what you will. I was playing with 1950's (or older) parts in the
1960's. All the datasheets back then said Ge. Compare proper
contemporaneous parts.


Well, I'm sure your memory is more accurate than my books and
datasheets.

I found an oral history from someone who was involved in the
research at the time (Art Uhlir Jr.). It is a bit
scattered, but very close to this discussion:
http://semiconductormuseum.com/Trans...hlir_Index.htm

Bottom of page 10 gets to the 1N23.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:42:57 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

Say what you will. I was playing with 1950's (or older) parts in the
1960's. All the datasheets back then said Ge. Compare proper
contemporaneous parts.

I still have a few 1N21 and 1N23 diodes used as mixers in ancient
X-band radar receivers. 2K25 klystron for a local oscillator.

Anyway, they're both silicon, not germanium. See:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1n21a.html
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1n23c.html

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 22:10:26 -0400, John Popelish
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:42:57 -0700, JosephKK

Say what you will. I was playing with 1950's (or older) parts in the
1960's. All the datasheets back then said Ge. Compare proper
contemporaneous parts.


Well, I'm sure your memory is more accurate than my books and
datasheets.

I found an oral history from someone who was involved in the
research at the time (Art Uhlir Jr.). It is a bit
scattered, but very close to this discussion:
http://semiconductormuseum.com/Trans...hlir_Index.htm

Bottom of page 10 gets to the 1N23.

Corroborates my thought that they were probably point-contact.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:06:12 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:51:25 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.

Thanks,
Rich

Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.

The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.

John

Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.

---
I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

JF

And what is the junction capacitance and does it make a good microwave
mixer?

---
Who cares?

Your statement that: "All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and
mostly 0.4 to 0.5 V." had nothing to do with junction capacitance and
suitability for use as microwave mixers, all you were trying to do was
discredit Larkin by using bogus data. Which Schottky diodes were you
referring to, BTW?

JF

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:04:37 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

According to the Henney's Radio Engineering Handbook 4th ed (1950),
1N25 and 1N26 silcon point contact 'crystals' for use in UHF and SHF
converters (1 to 25 GHz) are discussed in commercial publications by
Cornelius in 1945; 1N34 and 1N38 germanium 'crystals' for use at VHF
(~200mHz) appear in publications the following year.

Waritime radar operated in the 195MHz-10,000MHz range.

1N21B 'crystal' mixers were used by GE in commercial 2GHz relay
service before 1948 and similar parts were used by Bell in multiplex
telephone and television relay systems at 4GHz around the same time.

RL

On Apr 26, 5:04 pm, JosephKK wrote:
....
HSMS-2850 is about 0.2V @ 1mA, but it also has a PIV rating of just 2
volts. Capacitance is considerably less than that CMMSH1-20, though.
I don't have any point-contact diodes to compare it with, but can tell
you that it's useful for detecting RF down to a bit below 100uV,
possibly less if you're careful with thermal potentials and the like,
or chop the signal.

Cheers,
Tom

I am getting a little tired so may blatting about modern parts as if
they were available in the 1940'sand 1950's. The question is "What
were the original parts made of?"

Newer implementations is, at best, a side issue.

WTF??!! YOU are the one, a day before my posting quoted above, who
pondered in a post directly in the thread above mine about where to
get Schottky diodes with Vf below 0.2V. I would suppose you weren't
asking there about parts from the 40's or 50's. Don't complain about
drift into new areas after willing taking part in the drift yourself.
Please have the grace to not complain about answers to the very
questions you've asked. Alternatively, just ignore the drift. To
some of us, the side issues become more interesting than the original
topic.

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...ine.html#1940s
Different times scan down the page...

Silicon came later since it was hard to use and Ge was the center of
it all.

Martin

ronwer wrote:
Hi!

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

What I would be interested in is as follows:

-type numbers of the diodes
-name/type number of radar/communication equipment
-technical infor on those systems
-info on producers
-pictures of actual diodes, also "in" the circuits
-anecdotal stories about the actual use
-anything else!

The information will be used for an on-going study project related to
practical application of minerals (i.e. quartz) in industry and technology.

So, since this is an aspect of a broader study, other quartz-related info
would
be most appreciated, especially about early use of piezoelectric
quartz crystals in electronic equipment.

If you'd prefer, answering off-list is possible:




Thanks for ANY help!


Ronald
Norway

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG



Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.


Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.


Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG


Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John


I thought selenium rectifier stacks were pretty cool when I was a kid,
though....those big orange heat sinks made them look like some strange
arthropod. Fortunately I never toasted one, because I certainly
wouldn't have known that you have to leave the room ASAP.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:30:19 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

It was certainly used in the power supplies. Not maybe. I actually
owned a radar unit that was commissioned for navy service in 1944.
Nice selenium series stacks used as diodes in at least some of the
power supplies. Also used vacuum tube VR150's for regulators.

Jon

"Jon Kirwan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:30:19 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented
yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead
cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

It was certainly used in the power supplies. Not maybe. I actually
owned a radar unit that was commissioned for navy service in 1944.
Nice selenium series stacks used as diodes in at least some of the
power supplies. Also used vacuum tube VR150's for regulators.

Jon


VR150 is not a vacuum tube - it's gas filled (argon/neon), cold cathode.

Chris

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...ine.html#1940s
Different times scan down the page...

Silicon came later since it was hard to use and Ge was the center of
it all.

---
From the post you're responding to's headers:

"Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200"


Three questions:

1. Why are you responding to a post that's over a year old?
2. Why are you top-posting?
3. Why don't you do a little fact-checking before you post?

JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...ine.html#1940s
Different times scan down the page...

Silicon came later since it was hard to use and Ge was the center of
it all.

---
From the post you're responding to's headers:

"Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200"


Three questions:

1. Why are you responding to a post that's over a year old?

Because it just appeared in s.e.b.

2. Why are you top-posting?

Donno. Emails are by convention top, usenet is bottom. I do a lot of
emails, twenty or so yesterday, and sometimes I forget.

3. Why don't you do a little fact-checking before you post?

What facts do you dispute? Wanna argue with my RadLab books, or my
1964 Allied catalog, or my shelves of radio books going back to 1918?

OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

John

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:07:59 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...ine.html#1940s
Different times scan down the page...

Silicon came later since it was hard to use and Ge was the center of
it all.

---
From the post you're responding to's headers:

"Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200"


Three questions:

1. Why are you responding to a post that's over a year old?

Because it just appeared in s.e.b.

2. Why are you top-posting?

Donno. Emails are by convention top, usenet is bottom. I do a lot of
emails, twenty or so yesterday, and sometimes I forget.

3. Why don't you do a little fact-checking before you post?

What facts do you dispute? Wanna argue with my RadLab books, or my
1964 Allied catalog, or my shelves of radio books going back to 1918?

OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:31:31 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:07:59 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:30:28 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...ine.html#1940s
Different times scan down the page...

Silicon came later since it was hard to use and Ge was the center of
it all.

---
From the post you're responding to's headers:

"Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200"


Three questions:

1. Why are you responding to a post that's over a year old?

Because it just appeared in s.e.b.

2. Why are you top-posting?

Donno. Emails are by convention top, usenet is bottom. I do a lot of
emails, twenty or so yesterday, and sometimes I forget.

3. Why don't you do a little fact-checking before you post?

What facts do you dispute? Wanna argue with my RadLab books, or my
1964 Allied catalog, or my shelves of radio books going back to 1918?

OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

John

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

John

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:07:59 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

I don't know exactly when, but the announcement of a working tranistor
was Big News at the time - I was about 8, which would make it about
1957-ish; I know that transistor radios were popular in the late '50s-
early '60s; interestingly, that seems to coincide with the rising
popularity of Rock-n-Roll.

I'm pretty sure that Bardeen, Brattain, and Schockley made the first
_point-contact_ transistor at Bell Labs, but I'd have to look up the
date.

Oh, heck, I couldn't stop myself:

http://www.pbs.org/transistor/science/info/junctw.html

It's the first hit at:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...sistor+made%3F
[mind the wrap]

Hope This Helps!
Rich

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:30:09 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:


"Jon Kirwan" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 20:30:19 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented
yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG

Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead
cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

It was certainly used in the power supplies. Not maybe. I actually
owned a radar unit that was commissioned for navy service in 1944.
Nice selenium series stacks used as diodes in at least some of the
power supplies. Also used vacuum tube VR150's for regulators.

Jon

VR150 is not a vacuum tube - it's gas filled (argon/neon), cold cathode.

Sorry. My mistake. Looked like one, and of course you are correct.

Jon

On Aug 21, 7:07*am, John Larkin
wrote:
OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

John
According to the Computer History Museum, it was another invention
from Bell Las:

http://www.computerhistory.org/semic...951-First.html

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:




JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...



JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:15 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...



JF

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

John

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:29:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:15 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...

m

JF

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

John

We owe it to our creator to make some effort to correct the misguided
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:29:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:15 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...

m

JF

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

---
No, but I think it's kinda like Jim said in that we all have an
obligation to make tomorrow better than today, and you seem to think
that making that happen would involve killing off everyone who disagrees
with you and can post proof positive that you're wrong.

How tall are you, John?

JF

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:23:41 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:29:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:15 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
m wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...

om

JF

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

---
No, but I think it's kinda like Jim said in that we all have an
obligation to make tomorrow better than today, and you seem to think
that making that happen would involve killing off everyone who disagrees
with you and can post proof positive that you're wrong.

How tall are you, John?

JF

From past posts, I'm guessing he's shorter than both of us ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:23:41 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:29:34 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:15 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:59:34 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:37:43 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:50 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:23 -0700, John Larkin
m wrote:


OK, let's go: when was the first junction transistor made? By whom?

---
Morgan Sparks, of course, but why are you getting in my face when my
post was to Mr. Eastburn, not to you?

JF

Because I hadn't had coffee yet, and because I've got used to you
harassing me.

---
???

I don't harass you, John, I simply _correct_ you.

JF

Which is why you remind me so much of Miss Denton, my matronly 6th
grade teacher.

---
So you've had this problem for a long time, eh?

Instead of turning into an intensely combative and arrogant sonofabitch
when you've made a mistake and it's pointed out to you, you might want
to be a little more like this guy:



---
Oops...

om

JF

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

---
No, but I think it's kinda like Jim said in that we all have an
obligation to make tomorrow better than today, and you seem to think
that making that happen would involve killing off everyone who disagrees
with you and can post proof positive that you're wrong.

Relax: you're quite safe.

John

They were whisker types - not PN junctions.
Ge had most - as it was high frequency and Si wasn't.

Yes there were PN diodes but mostly whisker - in the late 50's.
Limited use and not for high rel at all.

Consider the 3 transistor radio - bound to have something in it.
Martin

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG


Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

Every one forgets the Cold war. B-36's and B-52's and such
were all vacuum tubes. EMP and radiation didn't wipe them out
as semiconductor was. Transistors were in the 40's post war at
Bell Labs. Nobel time.

I looked over my MIL books and didn't find a semi in power supplies
or in radios or detectors...

I think MIT and Bell Labs were experimenting with the new stuff
as a sight into the future.

Diodes - point and semi were in use but radios were miniature
vacuum tubes and turned transistor in 57.

TV sets used selenium rectifiers stacks for years before Semiconductor
were able to make ends meet. I think the big break for them - the
electronic terminal and smart printer in the 70's and 80's.

Martin

John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:07:46 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

First, Si diodes were not used in WW II. The PN SI diode wasn't invented yet.

Nearly all the radar first mixer diodes were silicon point-contact
types, essentially silicon schottky diodes.

See the MIT Rad Lab book, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers" for a bunch
of WWII (and pre-war) stuff about diode development. This is from that
book:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadDiode2.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/RadLabDiodes.JPG


Selenium wafers and sticks were the power types
and point or whisker diodes for RF. [ I have some of these in lead cans ]

In the 60's it was still that way.

Funny, I recall using lots of silicon PN diodes (and SCRs, and
transistors, and tunnel diodes) in the early 1960's. Tek was using
GaAs diodes in their sampling scopes ca 1964.

Silicon diodes were developed by bell labs for internal telephone use
but semiconductor had to be invented first.

No. See the RadLab book.

Look at the date of the transistor. Silicon diode and Germanium diode.

I know Radar in B52's were using Selenium and Germanium for RF.

Selenium was never used in RF or radar, except maybe power supplies.
Far too slow.

John

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:06:08 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Every one forgets the Cold war. B-36's and B-52's and such
were all vacuum tubes. EMP and radiation didn't wipe them out
as semiconductor was. Transistors were in the 40's post war at
Bell Labs. Nobel time.

The EMP became an issue in the 1960's after the nuclear test above the
Pacific, so it could not have influenced the much earlier B36/47/52
designs.

Apparently the semiconductor diode reliability was not very good since
some early computers had a lot of problems with semiconductor diode
reliability. For instance ENIAC had nearly 18000 tubes but only 7000
semiconductor diodes. If I had to design a computer with tubes and
diodes today, the amount of diodes would be at least ten times the
amount of tubes.

For microwave receiver applications, if you do not have a good low
noise RF amplifier, a point contact diode mixer is a reasonable
alternative (often driven by a LO frequency multiplying chain) to get
a reasonable system noise figure/temperature.

Paul

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:19:19 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:23:41 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

What are you doing, working towards a degree in social work?

---
No, but I think it's kinda like Jim said in that we all have an
obligation to make tomorrow better than today, and you seem to think
that making that happen would involve killing off everyone who disagrees
with you and can post proof positive that you're wrong.

Relax: you're quite safe.

---
That's kind of ambiguous, but since I've proved you wrong before, I
guess you're talking about the killing thing, in which case why should I
worry???

BTW, how tall are you?

JF