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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one
particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#2
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On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote:
In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. |
#3
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I may have a few of either floating about in my junk boxes. If so, I would be glad to send all that I have to you as I have no discernable use for them. I seem to remember those numbers,
Gratis, of course. I will let you know. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#4
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On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#5
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On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# Maybe the hydrogen is out-gassing thru the glass over time? |
#6
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On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# The tube tester can test for conductance from thermionic emission but IDK if it can test for the conductance when the tube is operating in the ionization-cascade mode. |
#7
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson
wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. |
#8
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:02:41 -0400, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# The tube tester can test for conductance from thermionic emission but IDK if it can test for the conductance when the tube is operating in the ionization-cascade mode. A tube tester may not apply enough voltage or current capability to fire the gas, so would miss a problem with ionization. What's the Gm of a thyratron anyhow? One could build a simple thyratron tester. |
#9
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On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. |
#10
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On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# Hydrogen diffusion through thin glass within tube-like operating temperatures, where the gas is in thermal equilibrium with the glass and the mean free path is glass thickness is dominated by e^(-1/T), so if hydrogen outgassing is causing the erratic behavior whether the tube envelope temperature is run before the "knee" or after may have a lot to do with the expected service life. |
#11
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On 4/21/2021 2:50 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# Hydrogen diffusion through thin glass within tube-like operating temperatures, where the gas is in thermal equilibrium with the glass and the mean free path is glass thickness I may have the pac-mans backwards there don't quote me on that. ![]() |
#12
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On 4/21/2021 2:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:02:41 -0400, bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:53 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 10:48 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 1:28 PM, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# What happens to them as they age? is that with respect to the unused NOS types? I was under the impression that small-signal gas thyratrons were very reliable in service. They're much less temperature sensitive in service than solid state devices, at least. If you blast a relaxation oscillator made with a 2D21 with cold spray it barely drifts. The 2D21 tubes become erratic, sometimes they respond, sometimes they are slow (the solenoid grumbles as it sluggishly engages), and sometimes they just ignore the control signal. Yet these tubes test OK on my mutual conductance tube checker (of course). John :-#)# The tube tester can test for conductance from thermionic emission but IDK if it can test for the conductance when the tube is operating in the ionization-cascade mode. A tube tester may not apply enough voltage or current capability to fire the gas, so would miss a problem with ionization. What's the Gm of a thyratron anyhow? Thyratron anode conductance is grid current-controlled when in the ionization mode, you can read off the parameters from fig 2 of the 2D21 datasheet. For grid 1 voltages between about -1 and -5 volts and Ib between 25 and 200 mA it's vaguely linear at about 50mA per 1 mA. One could build a simple thyratron tester. |
#13
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On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). The first control center is the original TSR1-L6, later it shows the replacement control center the TSR3-L6. You can ignore the stepper section, that is the interface to allow booth boxes (called Wall Boxes in the industry) - but it doesn't matter unless one is using those remote selectors... Thanks for looking at this! John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#14
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On 2021/04/21 11:19 a.m., bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. This controlled a solenoid at around 24VAC or regulated (0A2 = -150VDC) power supply for the tormat write-in and readout circuits. John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#15
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On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 1:28:10 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. Designing a workaround would be easier from the standpoint of seeing exactly how it's wired in a circuit as opposed to making a general sub for that tube. Is there a schematic on-line anywhere? |
#16
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson
wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany |
#17
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On 4/21/2021 5:20 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p |
#18
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On 2021/04/21 3:49 p.m., bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:20 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p Where's the fun in that? As I said, I know I can still get new tubes. The problem is the system doesn't work well... John ;-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#19
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"John Robertson" wrote in message
... ...... Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p Where's the fun in that? As I said, I know I can still get new tubes. The problem is the system doesn't work well... I had a look at the pdf and the schematic looks like a typical work of art from that era. So you could probably get a solid state equivalent designed if you wanted to pay a designer with the necessary experience to do it. I'm not offering but I'd need the hardware in the same room as me to have any chance. John ;-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#20
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bitrex wrote in
: On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century. By 1950 120 Volts was the standard. The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. The line voltage was already 120 Volts by then. You need a remedial electrical system / electronics industry history course. Or maybe you would simply develop enough Internet skills to know how to use google properly. |
#21
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#23
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On 4/21/2021 10:42 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 4/21/21 8:31 PM, wrote: 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century.Â* By 1950 120 Volts was the standard.Â* The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. We go through this over and over again on the antique radio news group. 110, 117, 120 = 120 vac I'm hearing that DLUNU would like to take responsibility for this project and I think he's the best qualified based on his rebuttal. I mean it's in his name. "NumeroUno" |
#24
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bitrex wrote in :
On 4/21/2021 10:42 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote: On 4/21/21 8:31 PM, wrote: 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century.Â* By 1950 120 Volts was the standard.Â* The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. We go through this over and over again on the antique radio news group. 110, 117, 120 = 120 vac I'm hearing that DLUNU would like to take responsibility for this project and I think he's the best qualified based on his rebuttal. I mean it's in his name. "NumeroUno" In case you missed it, he was backing me up. |
#25
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On 4/21/2021 11:29 PM, wrote:
bitrex wrote in : On 4/21/2021 10:42 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote: On 4/21/21 8:31 PM, wrote: 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century.Â* By 1950 120 Volts was the standard.Â* The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. We go through this over and over again on the antique radio news group. 110, 117, 120 = 120 vac I'm hearing that DLUNU would like to take responsibility for this project and I think he's the best qualified based on his rebuttal. I mean it's in his name. "NumeroUno" In case you missed it, he was backing me up. I would hope so! You're team lead, now |
#26
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On 4/21/2021 8:41 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 3:49 p.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 5:20 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p Where's the fun in that? As I said, I know I can still get new tubes. The problem is the system doesn't work well... John ;-#)# There's this patent from '66 that describes a solid-state thyratron replacement: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/42/6a/0d/6e35c415a3f0e0/US3293449.pdf It uses a couple of SCRs. It's to replace high-power thyratrons but I don't see why it couldn't be scaled-down. |
#27
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On 4/21/2021 8:41 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 3:49 p.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 5:20 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p Where's the fun in that? As I said, I know I can still get new tubes. The problem is the system doesn't work well... John ;-#)# What's a "Wall-o-Matic"? |
#28
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On 4/21/2021 3:47 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2021/04/21 11:19 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. This controlled a solenoid at around 24VAC or regulated (0A2 = -150VDC) power supply for the tormat write-in and readout circuits. John :-#)# I can't find a solid reference on what the gas in the 2D21 is, anyway. Only few references from the time period I can find don't agree, one paper says it's hydrogen: https://books.google.com/books?id=IdB5E4STz5kC&lpg=RA5-PA37&ots=T6ZN06aJWy&dq=hydrogen%20in%202d21&pg=RA5-PA37#v=onepage&q=hydrogen%20in%202d21&f=false Another says it's xenon: http://phylab.fudan.edu.cn/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=exp:ajp000701.pdf |
#29
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On 4/22/2021 1:07 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 3:47 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:19 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. This controlled a solenoid at around 24VAC or regulated (0A2 = -150VDC) power supply for the tormat write-in and readout circuits. John :-#)# I can't find a solid reference on what the gas in the 2D21 is, anyway. Only few references from the time period I can find don't agree, one paper says it's hydrogen: https://books.google.com/books?id=IdB5E4STz5kC&lpg=RA5-PA37&ots=T6ZN06aJWy&dq=hydrogen%20in%202d21&pg=RA5-PA37#v=onepage&q=hydrogen%20in%202d21&f=false Another says it's xenon: http://phylab.fudan.edu.cn/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=exp:ajp000701.pdf Maybe a mixture of stuff. |
#30
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On 4/22/2021 1:07 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 3:47 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:19 a.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 2:14 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. The 1954 gear was probably designed to run on old-timey line voltage of ~110 AC. Dialing back the heater voltage on the thyratrons to compensate for higher modern AC supply voltage might extend their life. This controlled a solenoid at around 24VAC or regulated (0A2 = -150VDC) power supply for the tormat write-in and readout circuits. John :-#)# I can't find a solid reference on what the gas in the 2D21 is, anyway. Only few references from the time period I can find don't agree, one paper says it's hydrogen: https://books.google.com/books?id=IdB5E4STz5kC&lpg=RA5-PA37&ots=T6ZN06aJWy&dq=hydrogen%20in%202d21&pg=RA5-PA37#v=onepage&q=hydrogen%20in%202d21&f=false Another says it's xenon: http://phylab.fudan.edu.cn/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=exp:ajp000701.pdf I think it must be xenon, the first one is just wrong |
#31
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bitrex wrote in
: On 4/21/2021 11:29 PM, wrote: bitrex wrote in : On 4/21/2021 10:42 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote: On 4/21/21 8:31 PM, wrote: 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century.Â* By 1950 120 Volts was the standard.Â* The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. We go through this over and over again on the antique radio news group. 110, 117, 120 = 120 vac I'm hearing that DLUNU would like to take responsibility for this project and I think he's the best qualified based on his rebuttal. I mean it's in his name. "NumeroUno" In case you missed it, he was backing me up. I would hope so! You're team lead, now No... According to the LarkinPunk, I am a mere "technician" who "hates the magic" of engineers. |
#32
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On 22/04/2021 5:00 am, bitrex wrote:
There's this patent from '66 that describes a solid-state thyratron replacement: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/42/6a/0d/6e35c415a3f0e0/US3293449.pdf It uses a couple of SCRs. It's to replace high-power thyratrons but I don't see why it couldn't be scaled-down. Thanks Bitrex, that patent even mentions a tunnel diode and UJT which are now very exotic devices. The struggle was to emulate the high impedance thyratron grid. It seems to me (I have never seen a thyratron) that a modern depletion mode mosfet would make a good front-end to a SCR in that a negative grid bias is required to keep the device non-conducting (if I understand thyratrons correctly). Here is a conceptual sketch: https://www.dropbox.com/s/al1b8hj07i7jfpq/SED_Thyratron_Idea.pdf?dl=0 Possible fets could be BSS126 or LND150 and SCR with sensitive gates X0402NF or BT149G. piglet |
#33
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On 4/22/2021 5:04 AM, piglet wrote:
On 22/04/2021 5:00 am, bitrex wrote: There's this patent from '66 that describes a solid-state thyratron replacement: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/42/6a/0d/6e35c415a3f0e0/US3293449.pdf It uses a couple of SCRs. It's to replace high-power thyratrons but I don't see why it couldn't be scaled-down. Thanks Bitrex, that patent even mentions a tunnel diode and UJT which are now very exotic devices. The struggle was to emulate the high impedance thyratron grid. It seems to me (I have never seen a thyratron) that a modern depletion mode mosfet would make a good front-end to a SCR in that a negative grid bias is required to keep the device non-conducting (if I understand thyratrons correctly). Well Fig 2 in the patent doesn't look like it requires anything exotic, the exotics look to be included in the "further embodiment of the invention" Here is a conceptual sketch: https://www.dropbox.com/s/al1b8hj07i7jfpq/SED_Thyratron_Idea.pdf?dl=0 Possible fets could be BSS126 or LND150 and SCR with sensitive gates X0402NF or BT149G. piglet Yeah, depletion mode MOSFET seems a plausible modern take on it. Only thing is a real gas thyratron the anode current is controlled by the control grid current when it's in the low impedance ionized state. In many switching applications though I expect this doesn't matter too much it doesn't matter what the impedance is in that state exactly, just so long as it's low enough to reliably fire the relay or whatever. And there doesn't need to be an analog to the screen grid, when the tube is used like a switch to ground it's usually connected to the cathode and just prevents the thyratron from firing until the positive-going pulse on the control grid is seen. You can see in a 2D21 a box-like structure surrounding all the other electrodes and I believe that whole structure is connected to the screen grid pin. |
#34
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On 4/22/2021 4:04 AM, wrote:
bitrex wrote in : On 4/21/2021 11:29 PM, wrote: bitrex wrote in : On 4/21/2021 10:42 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote: On 4/21/21 8:31 PM, wrote: 110 VAC went away at the beginning of the 20th century.Â* By 1950 120 Volts was the standard.Â* The MONIKER remained, but the voltage has been 120 VAC for a VERY long time. We go through this over and over again on the antique radio news group. 110, 117, 120 = 120 vac I'm hearing that DLUNU would like to take responsibility for this project and I think he's the best qualified based on his rebuttal. I mean it's in his name. "NumeroUno" In case you missed it, he was backing me up. I would hope so! You're team lead, now No... According to the LarkinPunk, I am a mere "technician" who "hates the magic" of engineers. Sounds like you have something to prove. Sometimes when I'm helping the little ol' lady in the library do her taxes some kid shows up with something to prove too and is like "No dummy you're doing that all wrong" and then I say "Okay.." and hand the job off directly to him, let him spend the next two hours with her while I go about my day. I'm not going to fight him on it he is the white-knight expert who has appeared in our time of most need. And it makes Ethel very happy! But that's interesting about the line voltage it seems to be a common misconception and 1954 was a long time before I was born. In any case my thoughts on the 2D21-dying issue have changed it's not hydrogen-filled it's probably primarily xenon. Hydrogen-filled thyratrons are more temperature-sensitive to both the temperature of the heater and temperature of the glass if they're too hot all the hydrogen tries to run away or react with the hot cathode. Obviously xenon won't react with the internal elements or the getter but it can still be absorbed by the glass or escape where the pins come in. So I still think the reason they end up malfunctioning in service is that the gas is escaping or being absorbed by the glass and reducing the operating temperature of the cathode may extend their life. |
#35
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On 4/22/2021 9:21 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/2021 5:04 AM, piglet wrote: On 22/04/2021 5:00 am, bitrex wrote: There's this patent from '66 that describes a solid-state thyratron replacement: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/42/6a/0d/6e35c415a3f0e0/US3293449.pdf It uses a couple of SCRs. It's to replace high-power thyratrons but I don't see why it couldn't be scaled-down. Thanks Bitrex, that patent even mentions a tunnel diode and UJT which are now very exotic devices. The struggle was to emulate the high impedance thyratron grid. It seems to me (I have never seen a thyratron) that a modern depletion mode mosfet would make a good front-end to a SCR in that a negative grid bias is required to keep the device non-conducting (if I understand thyratrons correctly). Well Fig 2 in the patent doesn't look like it requires anything exotic, the exotics look to be included in the "further embodiment of the invention" Oh okay I see what you're saying, instead of using a high-impedance SCR as the first element in a two-SCR pair there are better devices to solve that "struggle" of the inventor, now. |
#36
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson
wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). Yikes. The tube pins all go to off-page connectors, so it's not easy. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc The best designs are necessarily accidental. |
#37
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#38
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On 2021/04/21 9:04 p.m., bitrex wrote:
On 4/21/2021 8:41 PM, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 3:49 p.m., bitrex wrote: On 4/21/2021 5:20 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). A thyratron is similar to an SCR, maybe a sensitive-gate type like 2N5064 could be made to work. This one is apparently Xenon-filled. http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2d21.pdf https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/30...0_D-110409.pdf I don't have the relationships of the thyratron grids in my head though, never designed with one (I once fixed a spot welder that had an enormous lethal-looking high voltage thyratron tube (cap on the top) and a giant step-down transformer to give the kA pulse). Hardly touched vacuum tubes after HS, for that matter. Between the forces of good and the Evil Empire they must have made bajillions of these things. Why OP not buy a gross from Russia? Just sitting in their boxes in a dry environment the shelf life might be measured in centuries. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274314016219?hash=item3fde63b5db:g:T38AAOSwgOpeqBX p Where's the fun in that? As I said, I know I can still get new tubes. The problem is the system doesn't work well... John ;-#)# What's a "Wall-o-Matic"? Commonly called "Booth Boxes" or "Wall-Boxes" these used to be (and still are in a few places) jukebox remote controls that displayed a list of the songs available and a coin acceptor and push button system to make your remote selection on the in-house jukebox. Not unlike a dial phone in many ways - used a pair of steppers - one for the letter (up to twenty) and a second for the number (up to ten) to make a selection of one of up to two hundred songs. Some photos he https://www.smbaker.com/converting-a...n-music-player John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#39
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On 2021/04/22 9:14 a.m., wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). Yikes. The tube pins all go to off-page connectors, so it's not easy. The off page connections are mostly switches. I'll find the wiring layout diagram and post it a bit later... John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#40
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On 2021/04/22 9:14 a.m., wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:37 -0700, John Robertson wrote: On 2021/04/21 11:14 a.m., John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:28:02 -0700, John Robertson wrote: In my field of arcade repairs we run into older jukeboxes - one particular model which uses the 2D21 tube and was from about 1954. I have the spec sheet he https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/2D21_Thyratron_tube.pdf It would be fun to make a solid state replacement for it as nothing seems to exist. These tubes are still available from several sources, but they get wonky with age. Being able to simply wire in a TRIAC or SCR (with appropriate bits of electronic glue) to remove this tube from the suspect list when servicing this classic Seeburg V200 jukebox would simplify future servicing. I always like to make things easier for the next tech to work on machines that passed through my shop... I should point out that Seeburg only used these 2D21s (three 2D21s used) on their very first control center for their Tormat (200 x magnetic cores) memory and dropped it like a hot potato. There were numerous service bulletins culminating in the factory providing a low cost replacement for the control centers that used 2D21s (three of these) and the replacement used a single 2050 tube and was a very reliable design. Not everyone took advantage of the program and all these replacement were used up long, long ago. John :-#)# Got a schematic? It might be easy. A fairly recent scan (not tidied up) of my files section for the V200 Control Center: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...3-5143_B&W.pdf Relevant schematic is on page 5128 (pg 16 or the PDF). Yikes. The tube pins all go to off-page connectors, so it's not easy. From the service manual - the sequence of operations guide: https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/Seebur...154_Colour.pdf John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
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